Security/Traitor Balance as a Symptom of Population

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

This is going off topic but I think a migrant solution would be the better way forward with dealing with overpopulation instead of placing a hard cap on the server population.

[Scott]

I said that about projectors, while simultanously suggesting other items SHOULD be cheaper, because the projector can, and often is, used to ggnore murderbone the shit out of people.

You can sit there hidden, as anything, pop out and insta e-bow someone then beat them to death with an extinguisher.
And then hide near the corpse and gank whatever poor fuck tries to recover the body, because they don't even know there's anyone there.

It's the same thing why lockers are so gay - they're this invulnerable defence that can only be broken by shooting it repeatedly with lethals (which by extension means they won't be on stun), while giving you perfect vision, ready to pop out and insta stun people.

The projector when used for actually being sneaky, it's fine. But that's not the only way it can, or is, used.

Working as intended.

[lumipharon]

I never said it wasn't.

I said it shouldn't get it's cost reduced.

[Oldman Robustin]

If sec has caught you in chameleon mode they can just follow you around at a safe distance and call for backup until there's 10 greased up dudes ready to knock you out of disguise and validate you.

It's a mediocre traitor item at best.

[Amelius]

If sec has caught you in chameleon mode they can just follow you around at a safe distance and call for backup until there's 10 greased up dudes ready to knock you out of disguise and validate you.

It's a mediocre traitor item at best.

> Not just flashbanging them.

[Oldman Robustin]

I would've said flashbaning but I never got to try it since nobody ever takes the shitty projector anyway unless its the clown projecting a horn as LE FUNNY MEME TRAITOR.

Anyone, bump traitor up to 30 points for a week. Or give them Syndie uplink as default for a week.

ANYTHING to make traitor feel less like extended and give some of these changes a chance under real game conditions to shut down the haters who think giving traitors even 1 more TC is going to make them unkillable space gods.

[Steelpoint]

Would be interesting to double the starting amount of TC's that Traitors AND Nuke Operatives get. Right now Op win rates are abysmally low (sub 20% on anything past low pop) and Traitors could get a boost.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Doubling starting op TC just makes buying 2 syndieborgs the new meta instead of 1

[Steelpoint]

If that's the big game breaker (especially considering Syndi Borgs got badly nerfed a while ago) then we can just increase their price.

Otherwise its still a good idea.

[Gun Hog]

From the Nuke Op rounds I observe or join, it seems that the low winrate is down to really bad choices by the Nuke Ops, or simply getting swarmed by crew. Op round after Op round, I see the team split up and get picked off by sec/crew. Also, not ONCE have I see a single Op use a tear gas grenade. Sec players do not yet have a habit of preparing internals, which means that they CAN slow an assault with them. I do not see Ops using their flashbangs against regular crew either. Some of these losses are completly expected though, I have seen Sec properly team up and coordinate against the Ops many times as well.

I admit that I am part of this problem; I am very unrobust when it comes to combat situations, and I do not know how what to do when I am facing a formidable opponent. It is not just Sec, either. I am so terrible that I have had my my sword slapped out of my hand by an assistant (Bryce Pax) and beaten with it. I have had my gun disarmed as well. Heck, I have even blown myself up once or twice!

The skill of the players involved is a massive factor that can negate even the best of equipment.

[leibniz]

I think using stealth also became less popular with changes. The new hardsuit modes, guns and whatever are.. well, cool and neat.
So usually people dont ever step out of suits.
But in my experience, combined stealth+assault is very powerful.
The attack team makes their way through the station, gunning down everyone, while a lone stealth-op can casually intercept the fleeing captain or mingle with the crowd at escape, set off a good minibomb and get the disk if they are lucky.

[Arete]

From the Nuke Op rounds I observe or join, it seems that the low winrate is down to really bad choices by the Nuke Ops, or simply getting swarmed by crew. Op round after Op round, I see the team split up and get picked off by sec/crew. Also, not ONCE have I see a single Op use a tear gas grenade. Sec players do not yet have a habit of preparing internals, which means that they CAN slow an assault with them. I do not see Ops using their flashbangs against regular crew either. Some of these losses are completly expected though, I have seen Sec properly team up and coordinate against the Ops many times as well.

I admit that I am part of this problem; I am very unrobust when it comes to combat situations, and I do not know how what to do when I am facing a formidable opponent. It is not just Sec, either. I am so terrible that I have had my my sword slapped out of my hand by an assistant (Bryce Pax) and beaten with it. I have had my gun disarmed as well. Heck, I have even blown myself up once or twice!

The skill of the players involved is a massive factor that can negate even the best of equipment.

Mistakes are just part of the game. Nuke ops and crew members are drawn out of basically the same player pool. If the actual winrate isn't 50%, it's not because one side is making a bunch more mistakes than the other, it's because the rules of the game don't give the same tolerance for mistakes to both sides.

[Konork]

From the Nuke Op rounds I observe or join, it seems that the low winrate is down to really bad choices by the Nuke Ops, or simply getting swarmed by crew. Op round after Op round, I see the team split up and get picked off by sec/crew. Also, not ONCE have I see a single Op use a tear gas grenade. Sec players do not yet have a habit of preparing internals, which means that they CAN slow an assault with them. I do not see Ops using their flashbangs against regular crew either. Some of these losses are completly expected though, I have seen Sec properly team up and coordinate against the Ops many times as well.

I admit that I am part of this problem; I am very unrobust when it comes to combat situations, and I do not know how what to do when I am facing a formidable opponent. It is not just Sec, either. I am so terrible that I have had my my sword slapped out of my hand by an assistant (Bryce Pax) and beaten with it. I have had my gun disarmed as well. Heck, I have even blown myself up once or twice!

The skill of the players involved is a massive factor that can negate even the best of equipment.

Mistakes are just part of the game. Nuke ops and crew members are drawn out of basically the same player pool. If the actual winrate isn't 50%, it's not because one side is making a bunch more mistakes than the other, it's because the rules of the game don't give the same tolerance for mistakes to both sides.

Not really, since there's far fewer nuke ops, them making a mistake has a much bigger effect on their total power than if almost any crew member except for maybe the captain or whoever else is holding the disk. The chemist who slipped on lube and spaced himself is is just one of about 30-50 people, and probably didn't have anything that others couldn't have gotten anyway, compared the the nuke op who forgot his noslips and found the clown who's one of five, and who also has far more equipment that can't really be replaced.

[Oldman Robustin]

I think using stealth also became less popular with changes. The new hardsuit modes, guns and whatever are.. well, cool and neat.
So usually people dont ever step out of suits.
But in my experience, combined stealth+assault is very powerful.
The attack team makes their way through the station, gunning down everyone, while a lone stealth-op can casually intercept the fleeing captain or mingle with the crowd at escape, set off a good minibomb and get the disk if they are lucky.

Subverting will always be the best strat, no crew can stand up to combined AI+Ops fuckstorm. Half the time you can just sit on solars and wait for the borg to bring the captain's body to you.

Anyway back on topic. I would maintain that 30TC traitors are balanced as long as there is a limit to 1 syndiebomb/2 minibombs per PDA.

[Durkel]

I 100% agree that antags are not strong enough these days for multiple reasons. Mostly due to constant nerfing of items or abilities and quality of life upgrades for the AI and security and medical.. Most 40-50 pop round I've seen or played have been nothing more then extended until someone releases the singularity or manages to subvert the AI. However, Most 65+ rounds I've seen don't fair much better because that antag to crew ratio is completely fucked.


I'd suggest doing the following: Increase the number on antags spawned for various roundtypes, buff some of the traitor items (the revolver is the only decent way to kill anyone anymore), find a way to neuter the fucking AI.

Alternatively we could lower the cost of the supplemental tools of the traitor kit like thermals and such. As it stands you're probably either buying one weapon, and one tool, and that's it,

[Cheridan]

I don't see how increasing the number of traitors is supposed to help much. Each one is still going to be individually weak so you'll end up with 10 brigged/dead traitors instead of 6.

Lowering the price of some gear will help a bit but I don't really see it changing a whole lot either. What kind of cheap stuff are you going to get? More soap and chameleon jumpsuits?

[Durkel]

I've seen stations of seventy have 5-7 traitors. and stations of 30 have two. There's only so much you can do as a traitor against 28 people, even if you're only completing your objective and doing it in a stealthy manner.

The reason I suggest a reduction in some of the more utility items is because they're rarely purchased.

[Cheridan]

Do you think that's because they're too expensive? Or maybe they're rarely purchased because they're not worth using? If it's the latter (and I suspect it is), you won't be buying them regardless of price.

[Incoming]

It would be nice if we had a system where traitor items TC items followed a supply and demand system (we already track how often traitor items are bought) so the ones no one would give a chance would become cheaper and cheaper while overused things would become harder pills to swallow until people were forced to get creative.

[Celdur]

I'd say boosting the amount of traitors/pop ratio would help.
Maybe tying the amount of sec guards based on the amount of tators could help too.

And yeah, the AI right now is way too powerful.
You could make him not able to autotrack anyone who has their suit sensors not maxed out.
And also turn off the hotkey for bolting doors. Or use that pda jack thing, I like that idea too.

[Steelpoint]

It would be nice if we had a system where traitor items TC items followed a supply and demand system (we already track how often traitor items are bought) so the ones no one would give a chance would become cheaper and cheaper while overused things would become harder pills to swallow until people were forced to get creative.

Counter Strike Source tried that, and it was a failure. Critical items like grenades, armour or kits became too expensive to buy while shitty items, which were still shitty, were cheap as chips.

Keep It Simple Stupid. Increase the TC pool to 30 TCs and put a hard cap on the amount of bombs you can buy.

[Oldman Robustin]

I don't see how increasing the number of traitors is supposed to help much. Each one is still going to be individually weak so you'll end up with 10 brigged/dead traitors instead of 6.

Lowering the price of some gear will help a bit but I don't really see it changing a whole lot either. What kind of cheap stuff are you going to get? More soap and chameleon jumpsuits?

More traitors, even if weak, yields more chaos. More chaos makes it possible for that radio call for help to be ignored or that suspicious person report to go unnoticed/uninvestigated.

I'd prefer better traitors over more traitors, but I have absolutely no doubt that more traitors gives you a better window for crime. Nothing sucks more than planning an on-camera murder when there hasn't been reports of crime or violence in 10 minutes on a 50+ person station... you just KNOW that everybody is going to have the time to come check out reports of gunshots/hacking/beating/blood trails/cut cameras/etc.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Someone should make a poll to determine what the average tension level of the station should be

Occasional sudden bursts of crime that sec cracks down on?
Constant low-level traitor activity?
Sec running like headless chickens to get to the latest murder before a new one is called in?
The Tensioner?

[Oldman Robustin]

Someone should make a poll to determine what the average tension level of the station should be

Occasional sudden bursts of crime that sec cracks down on?
Constant low-level traitor activity?
Sec running like headless chickens to get to the latest murder before a new one is called in?
The Tensioner?

A post-round feedback box should've been added years ago.

Divvy up the feedback data by sec/heads/antags/crew and you'll quickly start to see correlations between gametypes, events, buttons, chaos, and player's enjoyment of a round. Sure it won't be perfect, if 70% of the crew goes braindead due to boredom but then the round ends in a hilarious clown v. mime war after 90 minutes of nothing, the remaining players will rate the round highly while the bored and braindead won't have stuck around to rate the round at all. This still beats our current non-existent feedback system and you can account for stuff like braindead/suicide/catatonic rates in a round as well.

Straight up polls are almost worthless, people will vote for what they THINK they want/enjoy, not what is actually fun/enjoyable for them. A simple "rate the last round" allows them to be more honest about their opinion.

[Amelius]

Someone should make a poll to determine what the average tension level of the station should be

Occasional sudden bursts of crime that sec cracks down on?
Constant low-level traitor activity?
Sec running like headless chickens to get to the latest murder before a new one is called in?
The Tensioner?

A post-round feedback box should've been added years ago.

Divvy up the feedback data by sec/heads/antags/crew and you'll quickly start to see correlations between gametypes, events, buttons, chaos, and player's enjoyment of a round. Sure it won't be perfect, if 70% of the crew goes braindead due to boredom but then the round ends in a hilarious clown v. mime war after 90 minutes of nothing, the remaining players will rate the round highly while the bored and braindead won't have stuck around to rate the round at all. This still beats our current non-existent feedback system and you can account for stuff like braindead/suicide/catatonic rates in a round as well.

Straight up polls are almost worthless, people will vote for what they THINK they want/enjoy, not what is actually fun/enjoyable for them. A simple "rate the last round" allows them to be more honest about their opinion.

This. Keep in mind Cheri, SoS silently nerfed the antag rate from 1/4-1/6 to 1/8-1/10 (not sure the exact ratios) not that long ago in a knee-jerk reaction to his own whole antag murderbone spiel, or something on that level. Maybe put it back, and buff the TC a bit (with restrictions), like other folks have been saying. Worst case scenario? Absolute chaos for a couple days, and it can simply be put back after an ingame or forum poll. Best case scenario? More interesting rounds, with more people engaged instead of afk/braindead because literally nothing is happening with 7 antags (with half of those fluking into the permabrig within 15 minutes) for a 60-person station. Buffing the gear won't make people more robust, just have more options, and, while traitors desperately need the sort of help Oldman has been preaching, that will only give them some more utility and so they CAN do (more) interesting things, not longevity. That is to say, more gear won't make the unrobust, robust, and there's only so much chaos, and thus, interest that 2-3/7 robust traitors can perpetuate on a station of 60 people with both security and the A.I. lording over them, especially since they're restricted in action due to a bored security force that will beeline to any somewhat interesting crime on the radio in seconds.

Even without security, it's still a vastly uphill battle.

[Cheimon]

The big risk, I think, with having too many traitors is that it becomes for some players less about achieving objectives and more about achieving as much collateral damage as possible. We saw this with Double Agent: enough players thought "if I release the singularity, I stand a better chance of my target dying and my attacker dying than almost anything else", so every round involved bombing, singularity releases, big fires and so on. No variety. A lot of people, myself included, didn't find it that fun.

Now obvious double agent had specific things that pushed it into this: every objective was an assassination, everyone knew someone was chasing them, and so on. But traitor could become similar if mass destruction becomes the easiest way to achieve a lot of the objectives. I hope that if you're increasing the amount of traitors, you bear this in mind. I think there are other ways to make traitors more dangerous without giving them chaotic numbers: if you could find a way to synchronise them, for example, so they all made a move at once, security would be overwhelmed much more often than they already are.

[Amelius]

Alright, I checked. We had a 90-player round with 8 traitors, 0 lings. The ratio is 1/10, not 1/8. It definitely used to be 1/6, so we've nerfed traitor rates pretty drasticly. That might partially justify why they're so under-par right now, given we almost slashed their numbers in half, so it's impossible to do anything under the cloak of chaos, because there's never chaos in traitor any more.

Also: the round was ridiculously boring, with very few events, and most of the traitors caught early-on. Srsly.

[Ikarrus]

How many traitors there are in a given round is a lot more complex than a simple ratio.

Roundstart:

Code: Select all

num_traitors = max(1, min( round(num_players()/(config.traitor_scaling_coeff*2))+ 2 + num_modifier, round(num_players()/(config.traitor_scaling_coeff)) + num_modifier ))

Latejoin:

Code: Select all

	var/traitorcap = min(round(joined_player_list.len / (config.traitor_scaling_coeff * 2)) + 2 + num_modifier, round(joined_player_list.len/config.traitor_scaling_coeff) + num_modifier )
	if(ticker.mode.traitors.len >= traitorcap) //Upper cap for number of latejoin antagonists
		return
	if(ticker.mode.traitors.len <= (traitorcap - 2) || prob(100 / (config.traitor_scaling_coeff * 2)))
		add_latejoin_traitor(character.mind)

num_modifier is 0 for Traitor

The coefficient is currently set to 7 for traitors and 9 for changeling.

By default it's 6 for each. SoS raised them both some time while I was on Vacation.

[Incomptinence]

I know about the traitor equation yeah.

I think it is deeply flawed to set up a system with diminishing returns. So we get vastly outnumbered traitors on stations that can handle them and they can still slaughter on low pop being too common in the most murderboner friendly environment.

[Ikarrus]

Well, it was designed with the ideas that traitors and catching traitors were not the focus of the game, as well as higher population rounds naturally contributing it's own share of chaos to the round, so traitors weren't needed as much.

And imo 10 traitors sucks ass no matter what the population is.

[Oldman Robustin]

High pop rounds used to be more chaotic until admins and coders did everything in their power to make assistant bland and completely flavorless.

So people got what they wanted, a round completely incapable of producing any kind of interesting conflict or chaos until an antag makes his move.

[Saegrimr]

Good, fuck assistants.

[Oldman Robustin]

Yea I hated that rounds could be independently interesting.

With the death of assistants and cargonia, like I said before, its entirely up to the antags to actually make a round interesting. Coders are doing their best to make sure that antags can't make the round interesting.

[Celdur]

They never do though. They're just annoying most of the time.
It's much more interesting when departments do something creative.

[onleavedontatme]

They never do though. They're just annoying most of the time.
It's much more interesting when departments do something creative.

If you do something "interesting" as a department it usually leads to the AI or security declaring your party over, and if you resist arrest too effectively you'll get banned.

Like Gun Cargo. Cargo would make a pile of guns/fort and declare they were gonna do trade with the station as an independent party. Every single time, someone like CDB would be compelled to march into cargo and try to perma everyone. CDB of course often got shot doing this, and would immediately adminhelp.

Nevermind that they could have just traded peacefully with gun cargo, they felt a compulsion to stomp on their fun each time and then adminhelped when they reacted predictably.

tl;dr Doing anything weird means you're gonna have to let security arrest you because fighting them will result in death (and a ban).


I'm sad I missed the infinite round. Freeport sounded really cool. Station vs Station conflict has always been more interesting to me than antags vs station. Way off topic though.

[Malkevin]

Gun cargo got shit on because dweebs would literally do it every single round.

Be glad you weren't around during that period, because most of them were just looking for an excuse to use those guns, or at the very least acted like complete cunts to everyone else.

[Incomptinence]

My personal bane in a job doing something interesting was robotics back when they were under both RD and CE authority.

Which being the most bullish territorial turds on the station they interpreted as DO WHAT I WAAAANT!

Cue needing to think up contingencies to stop angry mechs trying to snap one or both of their heads in half for wanting any part of the sacred mech pie since following a rote recipe made the chosen ones above the people who provide the research, power the room or supply the materials to actually make the mechs.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

As a CE, I have a simple solution to any departments or subdepartments that are getting uppity/rude/rogue.

":C AI, shut down equipment and lighting in [subdepartment/department] and if asked to re-enable do so only if you personally think they deserve to have their power back. "

[bandit]

As an AI player, I'd jump on the first order that even somewhat conflicted with that.

[Gun Hog]

As a CE, I have a simple solution to any departments or subdepartments that are getting uppity/rude/rogue.

":C AI, shut down equipment and lighting in [subdepartment/department] and if asked to re-enable do so only if you personally think they deserve to have their power back. "

This will work for about five minutes, at which point someone gets a toolbelt, hacks the APC and cuts the AI wire on them. They will probably also cut all the cameras, and be justified in doing so. If an AI dares try this with Science or Sec, it can expect the Pain Train.

[Scones]

le ebin power denial i am indebendant debartment :DD is autistic and you should feel bad for suggesting it

we all know it just ends with someone eyestabbing you to death and hiding the body

[Marflow]

Having gateway working with interesting locations would alleviate some of the issues, AI cannot do anything in gateway places and in space beach, nobody can hear you being strangled. I don't know if 30tc would help that much, it'd just make all antags buy all the good shit and be able to bring down the station alone, rather balance out better the existing items and add more mundane items for cheap purchase (Syringe gun and empty lethal injection syringe, gas-spreading bombs, meth+mannitol pills etc)

[Void Slayer]

What if instead of starting traitors out with more TC, we reduce the cost a little bit on some non lethal utility items, then give traitors an option to up the ante for more TCs.

Like they could have 3 options in the uplink - murder, steal, sabotage (bodyguard?)

These could be used once each to give 5 TCs and add a linked objective. I know this kind of thing is done by Admins sometimes but it just seems like a great idea overall to give them an edge, if they want it.

So by default it would be:
1 objective + escape 10 TC
2 objective + escape 15 TC
3 objective + escape 20 TC
4 objective + escape 25 TC

Maybe if you get escape alone you get 5 extra TCs right off the bat. Maybe you can even buy that.

So 4 objectives + escape alone would be 30 TC.

[Incoming]

It's a fun idea I've wanted before. The problem is that there's nothing stopping people from taking every objective and then never trying to complete them; they could (and probably would) just buy a bunch of weapons and fuck off.

One solution would be to require the old objectives to be finished before new ones could be taken. Problem there is that right now antag "objectives" are only checked at round end, and doing so midround is tricky because most every objective can be "failed" even if it looks completed at the time (ie someone gets cloned, or you lose an objective item).

[onleavedontatme]

It's a fun idea I've wanted before. The problem is that there's nothing stopping people from taking every objective and then never trying to complete them; they could (and probably would) just buy a bunch of weapons and fuck off.

One solution would be to require the old objectives to be finished before new ones could be taken. Problem there is that right now antag "objectives" are only checked at round end, and doing so midround is tricky because most every objective can be "failed" even if it looks completed at the time (ie someone gets cloned, or you lose an objective item).

Could check for gibbed instead of simply dead and have secret drop zones for the syndicate to pick up the stuff you took.

[Void Slayer]

Also make the handheld crew monitor a single item the CMO has, exactly the same as it is right now, no vendors.

Meh, it would be rather simple (I think) to just check if they have completed the objective *right now* even if it later becomes incomplete.

You want the toys do your work is a pretty nifty idea and matches the current design direction of shadowlings/lings/cultists/gangsters

[onleavedontatme]

Meh, it would be rather simple (I think) to just check if they have completed the objective *right now* even if it later becomes incomplete.

First thing I'd do as captain would be to find a traitor and him the station objectives to farm telecrystals (and kll/defib his targets)

[Amelius]

What if instead of starting traitors out with more TC, we reduce the cost a little bit on some non lethal utility items, then give traitors an option to up the ante for more TCs.

Like they could have 3 options in the uplink - murder, steal, sabotage (bodyguard?)

These could be used once each to give 5 TCs and add a linked objective. I know this kind of thing is done by Admins sometimes but it just seems like a great idea overall to give them an edge, if they want it.

So by default it would be:
1 objective + escape 10 TC
2 objective + escape 15 TC
3 objective + escape 20 TC
4 objective + escape 25 TC

Maybe if you get escape alone you get 5 extra TCs right off the bat. Maybe you can even buy that.

So 4 objectives + escape alone would be 30 TC.

Good idea, but make it so that you'd have to have accomplished your own objectives, sans escape to acquire another objective (otherwise folks like myself that don't care about greentext will spam the TC). Put a cooldown of a few minutes too. It'd be helpful just generally speaking because often when you get greyshirtmcgreytide as your target you NEVER see them, so you just have to assume they're dead. To this end, I feel that ling should also have something of that sort, because you're absolutely fucked if you have a ling objective and you don't know if they're still alive, or simply suicided at roundstart/dead elsewhere.

Btw, not sure you know this but TCs were doubled for better costing precision. It'd be 20-30-40-50.

[Steelpoint]

For objectives we could introduce ways to lock down a objective as accomplished. For example, we could give traitors a item that allows them to teleport a item off station to mark it off as accomplished, however doing so requires time (30 seconds to a minute) and is not a quite procedure and must be preformed on the station itself.

[TheNightingale]

It'd be helpful just generally speaking because often when you get greyshirtmcgreytide as your target you NEVER see them, so you just have to assume they're dead. To this end, I feel that ling should also have something of that sort, because you're absolutely fucked if you have a ling objective and you don't know if they're still alive, or simply suicided at roundstart/dead elsewhere.

Give traitors a low-TC item that works like a pinpointer, and points to their target (maybe disguised as an analyzer or something)? Changelings could have a similar option, but for chemical points instead.

[Cheimon]

That would be so useful. Even just something that gave you an indication within, say, 20 tiles would narrow things down so much.

As it is, finding your target is pretty much impossible sometimes, and you're left to wander looking for them only to find out at the end of the round that they either got gibbed, spaced, or fucked off to mining.