Security/Traitor Balance as a Symptom of Population

[Scones]

I was going to write a really long essay-esque thing about this but I have better things to do than expostulate about 2d spessmens balance.

To summarize: The AI and Security being strong should not be an issue. They are maybe slightly overtuned but the real issue, the real mechanism that makes traitors/lings so weak is simply population. In a lower population (<50) situation traitors and security are both incredibly strong and confrontations are meaningful. The issue is that past a certain threshold, it becomes almost impossible to perform clandestine traitor shit because of the volume of player on the station, where clandestine maint business is constantly interrupted by the masses, where there is no unsupervised corner of your department.

I could be wrong but I personally think that population is the biggest factor that makes traitors and lings so weak sometimes. It's just hard to do shit that isn't a columbine tier murder spree when you have 80 people breathing down your throat, watching cameras, radio, and the areas around them.

I guess what I'm saying is that traitor isn't inherently weak it just sucks in high pop.

[Ikarrus]

Fuck high pop, lower the hard cap

[Scott]

new map when

[Scones]

Fuck high pop, lower the hard cap

We could talk about dramatically lowering the hard cap this summer.

new map when

Keep it on topic, please.

[Ikarrus]

summer

I nearly forgot it's coming up. God help us all.

[ThatSlyFox]

Although the population is a issue like you stated the AI is also too powerful. Having a robot that can very quickly locate you, lock you down, and if the laws allow kill you or just call in a mob of people and "yell no harm" as they beat your brains in.

Fuck high pop, lower the hard cap

This.

new map when

This is on topic, a larger map would help curve the high population issue.

[Scones]

Again, I don't know how to balance AI without gimping it, severely. Maybe the camera list is the biggest offender here, where you can check for unknowns/aliens.

But we should make a poll about a SEVERE hardcap pop drop for the summer. 60, maybe? I'll bring it up in bus later.

[Gun Hog]

As an AI player, even I find it powergamey to scan for aliums using the camera list. Conversely, I find hunting for unknowns to be a waste of my time, as when I ever think about it, I usually wind up looking at cloned corpses, the HoP line, bar patrons, and random 'gas mask, grey shirt, no id' mooks that are not really antags, but just annoying grey-tiders (not worth your attention as AI if they are not doing anything harmful). Aliens (at least larva that are hiding) probably should not show up - not a big deal, as any ROBUST alien knows to slash the cameras and lights, or to not be in a public area in the first place.

As for the population issue, we have a severe population imbalance between Sybil and Basil. I prefer Metastation to Box, but low-population is boring and lacking of the interesting round-types. A hard-cap of 60 could help to fill out Basil's population so that it is fun to play there again.

[Scott]

Hardcap shit. If there's even an hardcap you have to run the same map (Box) on both servers.

A new map is the better solution for everyone, except the poor guy doing the mapping.

Also, the AI's ability to jump to a person through their tcomms transmissions is OP. Remove that or gimp it severely.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Hardcap shit. If there's even an hardcap you have to run the same map (Box) on both servers.

A new map is the better solution for everyone, except the poor guy doing the mapping.

Also, the AI's ability to jump to a person through their tcomms transmissions is OP. Remove that or gimp it severely.

Contrary to this, all the maps that keep popping up in the map section aren't produced by slave labour. (Eff3sybilnowdoit)

[ThatSlyFox]

Hard cap of 50 or the cap isn't worth it.

Asteroid map or go home.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

Hard cap of 50 or the cap isn't worth it.

Asteroid map or go home.

By 50 you don't NEED a new map, that's the intended population for tgstation2 anyway.

[Ikarrus]

A hard cap of 60 isn't even that high. We only ever hit it during prime time on the weekends, and only occasionally.

You guys need to remember that it only counts living players, and there are a lot of players who are connection but not actually playing the game. A more accurate estimation of server population with a hard cap of 60 living players is roughly ~80 connected players.

Another thing to consider is that there are only ~55 job slots available at round start (with plenty of redundant positions), so we're still well within having all the positions filled at 60. The rest would be spawning as assistants.

[ThatSlyFox]

Hard cap of 50 or the cap isn't worth it.

Asteroid map or go home.

By 50 you don't NEED a new map, that's the intended population for tgstation2 anyway.

I personally think we need to change maps because box is kinda stale and people hate meta for some reason.

[Saegrimr]

People hated ass station even more, they all wanted eff3 instead because it was smaller and fit basils general population better.

And you'll never get wide support for switching from box station on sybil. Ass station was fucking great though.

[onleavedontatme]

I dont think its a high pop thing.

At 30 people you can still easily have a warden/captain/hos/ai/1-2 sec borgs, a hop and a handful of officers. I've seen plenty of rev rounds with the protected roles easily matching the crew in numbers.

AI and security power creep is the real issue.

That and no traitor security. With the AI/security/heads working together with a ton of weapons and access to do nothing but hunt antags of course the guys with access to a single room and the main halls gets caught

[Ikarrus]

The various "quality of life" updates the AI received over the years made it ridiculously easy to play as the perfect efficient surveillance machine.

[onleavedontatme]

Things I'll probably make pull requests for when the freeze is up, in no particular order of importance. Maybe not all will be met with approval, but I think they'd all help in their own way. Probably shouldn't all be done at once in any case. Some ideas are more radical/dumber than other ideas

-Cut cameras in one step again: Can't hide from the AI if you're setting off alarms trying to limit its view
-Remove department security: Gives security too much access, means there is always a guy in your workplace staring at you/using the booth cameras

-Remove security maint: There needs to be somewhere to run from them

-Maybe add a delay to examine: You can fully see everything on a person while running a hundred miles per hour past them. I've caught people for the wrong coloured headset or oxytank before.

-Nerf armor/buff melee: Security is part of a team, the average security officer does not need to be able to take 7 hits from an esword by himself when he can down you in a single hit of his baton (and has multiple friends providing backup) This goes for all armor in the game actually, whoever redid armor did not at all lower the values of said armor, so sec vests alone halve all damage you take to your entire body.

-Restrict the AI to speaking on the common channel: So traitors at least know when they've been spotted by the noclip antag hunter

-Nerf sec AoE weapons: Again, one officer doesn't need to able to take on entire mobs of people when they are part of a team.

-Remove sec HUDs: Maybe people will actually be able to pull of disguises if a security officer can't see through it just by strolling by them. Maybe make the HUDs implant view only. The AI has it now, which is even worse. Can easily sweep the station and spot anyone with the wrong/no ID. Security officers can call out descriptions of the suspect on the sec radio and get to hunting. It's fun doing detective work to figure out who people are rather than stamping a big red W on them.

-Remove handheld crew monitors: Do we really need the AI, borg, a couple med doctors, and the CMO all running around checking those things constantly?

-Lower deconstruction/construction time: Enough so that it's faster without returning to being able to spam walls mid combat. The less time you have to spend breaking into a place or building your deathtrap the less likely someone will stumble across you in the process

-Make armor not block unarmed attacks: Why was this even added you can't even shove an officer anymore. Revs are fucked trying to fight with fire extinguishers and fists against melee immune targets

The AI probably needs some other restrictions as well but I can't think of how to counterbalance how much better the UI has gotten without ruining the role.

Anyway feel free to call me dumb, I'm probably overreacting to the issue, but the AI/borg/head/sec surveillance state is just silly right now.

[onleavedontatme]

The various "quality of life" updates the AI received over the years made it ridiculously easy to play as the perfect efficient surveillance machine.

I have no idea how to nerf it reasonably. It's completely insane what it has become though.

It used to have limited camera coverage with shitty controls and it took a reasonable amount of time to do stuff with doors. Now it has dozens of hotkeys and is basically just an antag hunting ghost with an army of security/cyborgs (anyone else remember when they didn't spawn at roundstart?) at its command. Also hears literally everything said on the station ever.

[Ikarrus]

AI doesn't need free unlimited access to a crew monitor either.

[onleavedontatme]

REMOVE ALL THESE THINGS I DON'T LIKE WAAAAAAAAAAA

Fuck right off, Kor.

I know you're one of those MUH GOOD OL' DAYS dudes but fucking chill.

Scones is not a MUH GOOD OL DAYS person and is the one who brought up this issue. I'm giving what I think are solutions to this issue.

[Saegrimr]

Your solutions are paprika-tier asspain changes to fight a server that doesn't roleplay by removing actively used features.

So fuck right off paprKor

[onleavedontatme]

Your solutions are paprika-tier asspain changes to fight a server that doesn't roleplay by removing actively used features.

So fuck right off paprKor

Just because a feature is actively used doesn't mean it is good. We removed parapens for a reason, despite them being bought literally every round and an entire game mode revolving around them.

And thank you for equating me to someone who openly stated they didn't give a shit about your feedback because I put ideas out for feedback.

Also removing something like sec HUDs encourages disguising yourself. Making cameras easier to break lets you do stealthier things. Nerfing armor means weapons other than just batons and tasers are now viable. Almost everything I suggested would add something new for what it took away.

What roleplay value is there in magic " I see the badguys" goggles?

[Ikarrus]

Your solutions are paprika-tier asspain changes to fight a server that doesn't roleplay by removing actively used features.

Since when does a feature being used often mean it's a good thing? If anything, something being too useful is a sign that it may be too powerful.

TG suffers heavily from feature creep and power creep. We need to regularly re-evaluate what we have to make sure it doesn't run the game out of control.

[ThatSlyFox]

-Remove security maint: There needs to be somewhere to run from them

-Nerf armor/buff melee: Security is part of a team, the average security officer does not need to be able to take 7 hits from an esword by himself when he can down you in a single hit of his baton (and has multiple friends providing backup) This goes for all armor in the game actually, whoever redid armor did not at all lower the values of said armor, so sec vests alone halve all damage you take to your entire body.

-Restrict the AI to speaking on the common channel: So traitors at least know when they've been spotted by the noclip antag hunter

-Remove sec HUDs: Maybe people will actually be able to pull of disguises if a security officer can't see through it just by strolling by them. Maybe make the HUDs implant view only. The AI has it now, which is even worse. Can easily sweep the station and spot anyone with the wrong/no ID. Security officers can call out descriptions of the suspect on the sec radio and get to hunting. It's fun doing detective work to figure out who people are rather than stamping a big red W on them.

-Remove handheld crew monitors: Do we really need the AI, borg, a couple med doctors, and the CMO all running around checking those things constantly?

-Make armor not block unarmed attacks: Why was this even added you can't even shove an officer anymore. Revs are fucked trying to fight with fire extinguishers and fists against melee immune targets

The AI probably needs some other restrictions as well but I can't think of how to counterbalance how much better the UI has gotten without ruining the role.

Everything else you suggested can go in the trash. These though are some solid ideas. 2 of which I have personally complained about(handled crew monitors and ai comms channel). The secuirty huds thing is interesting. Never thought of them like that before.

[onleavedontatme]

I'm equating you to paprika because these can basically be summed up as "i ded pls nerf" rather than "This will improve the game for everyone involved!"

Might as well remove defibs and cloning too because killing people is too hard if they keep getting cloned.

More like "I'm bored pls nerf." I almost exclusively play HoS/captain or security borg. These are observations I have from hunting the badguys, and how easy it is to stomp on anything but nuke ops.

When I'm a traitor or changeling I steal a jetpack and go to space because I have freedom of movement, AI can't track me, security can't chase me, etc, so I've figured out how to win with all this, thank you. It's just boring is all.

And again, I didn't make this thread, Scones did. MrPerson and HG have been talking about security creep in coderbus. I've spoken with Ikarrus about it on steam. I'm not just demanding the whole game change to suit me (I backed off when it became clear people didn't want traitor sec back). I'm offering potential solutions to problems other people are being vocal about, I don't know why this offends you so much. You have not even told me what your issue with my ideas are other than you dislike me personally.

[Scones]

-Cut cameras in one step again: Can't hide from the AI if you're setting off alarms trying to limit its view

Two thumbs up, really good way to nerf AI omnisight and create blind spots to do shady things in.

-Remove department security: Gives security too much access, means there is always a guy in your workplace staring at you/using the booth cameras

Neutral on this. They have fairly neutered access to the Department and can only get into it's most basic workings.

-Remove security maint: There needs to be somewhere to run from them

I could write a lot about balance in a very competitive sense but I can say with absolute surety that the most important part of the round for antagonists is the early game, where most people are still setting up and getting job changes and are generally less aware/equipped. Removing Security maint opens up a huge new leeway for early-game traitor/ling business. Security will, of course, get maint access every round - But it's the start that counts the most, and this would be a fantastic change.

-Maybe add a delay to examine: You can fully see everything on a person while running a hundred miles per hour past them. I've caught people for the wrong coloured headset or oxytank before.

I've caught people for the same but I disagree there should be a delay.

-Nerf armor/buff melee: Security is part of a team, the average security officer does not need to be able to take 7 hits from an esword by himself when he can down you in a single hit of his baton (and has multiple friends providing backup) This goes for all armor in the game actually, whoever redid armor did not at all lower the values of said armor, so sec vests alone halve all damage you take to your entire body.

Vests should be protecting arms+groin, nothing more.

-Restrict the AI to speaking on the common channel: So traitors at least know when they've been spotted by the noclip antag hunter

I think this is going a little too far, as there are MANY situations in which the AI needs to use a secure channel. I can understand your frustration and motivation but frankly it keeps the radio so much less cluttered and information that much more secure (within what I feel is a reasonable boundry).

-Nerf sec AoE weapons: Again, one officer doesn't need to able to take on entire mobs of people when they are part of a team.

Standardize Tear Gas grenades and make flashbangs stun in a very small radius, FLASH in a large radius, and reduce vision temporarily on the outer limits.

-Remove sec HUDs: Maybe people will actually be able to pull of disguises if a security officer can't see through it just by strolling by them. Maybe make the HUDs implant view only. The AI has it now, which is even worse. Can easily sweep the station and spot anyone with the wrong/no ID. Security officers can call out descriptions of the suspect on the sec radio and get to hunting. It's fun doing detective work to figure out who people are rather than stamping a big red W on them.

FIX sec huds. IMO the wanted system is fine but it needs to be fucking fixed so you aren't wanted through ID/Genetics changes. The job icons would benefit from fucking off the edge of a cliff though, they make disguises and shit harder than they should be.

-Remove handheld crew monitors: Do we really need the AI, borg, a couple med doctors, and the CMO all running around checking those things constantly?

Not sure why these were ever added, Cap/HoS always takes them instead of the MDs/CMO as intended.

-Lower deconstruction/construction time: Enough so that it's faster without returning to being able to spam walls mid combat. The less time you have to spend breaking into a place or building your deathtrap the less likely someone will stumble across you in the process

Neutral, don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

-Make armor not block unarmed attacks: Why was this even added you can't even shove an officer anymore. Revs are fucked trying to fight with fire extinguishers and fists against melee immune targets

It's armor. Shoving is such a bad mechanic it should never be relied upon as an intended combat strat.

At least, those are my thoughts on the matter.

[Saegrimr]

And again, I didn't make this thread, Scones did.

Ah yes, I remember exactly where Scones said that the real reason traitors keep failing is because of those damned flashbangs, and body armor and not enough disarm spam happening.

the real mechanism that makes traitors/lings so weak is simply population. In a lower population (<50) situation traitors and security are both incredibly strong and confrontations are meaningful. The issue is that past a certain threshold, it becomes almost impossible to perform clandestine traitor shit because of the volume of player on the station

OH, WHOOPS.

[Septavius]

can sibyl just get a new and bigger map please.

[Akkryls]

can sibyl just get a new and bigger map please.

We have a new and bigger map. Metastation.
But apparently none of you fucks actually want to play on it despite asking for a new map, which mean it's stuck on Basil where the low population never makes use of the larger station.

[Ikarrus]

Ideally we should have a map that scales well with both low population and high population conditions. I think box accomplishes this well enough, but only up to a certain extent, and certainly not for 60+ active players at a time.

Metastation isn't even that much bigger than box; That's just a myth. It just has longer winding, but cramped, spaces. Which is one of the reasons why I personally prefer not to play on it when there are other alternatives.

[onleavedontatme]

stuff

Scones thinks there is a problem with surveillance/traitors being weak. I think the problem extends to low pop as well. We're both trying to address the same problem. Scones responded to the various things I suggested with what they liked/disliked. We are having a conversation. Ideas are being exchanged. Not all of mine are right or perfect, I said that from the start.

If you want to talk about why you dislike me/in what way I've offended you send me a PM on the forums or IRC or something, or keep it to yourself, but please stop derailing the thread without even addressing anything that is being said.

[Akkryls]

Ideally we should have a map that scales well with both low population and high population conditions. I think box accomplishes this well enough, but only up to a certain extent, and certainly not for 60+ active players at a time.

Metastation isn't even that much bigger than box; That's just a myth. It just has longer winding, but cramped, spaces. Which is one of the reasons why I personally prefer not to play on it when there are other alternatives.

From memory, and from looking at the Metastation map: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/858 ... 20Full.png
Every department seems to be bigger, with some places having almost twice as much room as Box. Or twice as much actual room rather than filled with crap.

Maybe it only feels that way.

[Arete]

I would really prefer to see this handled by powering up traitors rather than by powering down security. When I'm a traitor, it's not security I'm afraid of. It's getting mobbed by half a dozen bored grayshirts with stunprods. It would be nice if, when a random crewman sees someone doing traitory stuff, his first reaction is "I can't handle this alone" rather than "Sweet, time to get my valids on!" Ideally, a murderboning traitor should be stopped by security, not by the crew.

As an AI player, I do agree that they generally have too big an impact on traitor rounds, but a policy solution might be more prudent than a coding one. I think it would be fine for admins to tighten Asimov policy a bit tighter to encourage the crew to upload a lawset appropriate to the game round. When I'm playing AI, I pretty much never report petty crime like breaking into EVA or stealing stuff from one department or another, because while those things aren't explicitly harmful, security's reaction to the criminal probably will be. As things stand, an AI that's itching to get its valids on might as well be Robocop with none of the downsides.

Nerfing camera alarms is a great idea though, I just think that a lot of quality of life stuff should stay and just be counterbalanced by increasing the power of the opposition.

[Saegrimr]

We are having a conversation. Ideas are being exchanged. Not all of mine are right or perfect, I said that from the start.

And that's why I told you in a very inelegant way I think your ideas are shit.

I got nothing against you, I just think your ideas among the worst possible.

You even asked me to.

Anyway feel free to call me dumb,

[lumipharon]

EMPing cameras should notify silicons. It completely defeats the purpose of it, 95% of the time.

[onleavedontatme]

stuff

Problems with buffing traitors and security and leaving crew far behind are

1) Crew is screwed in the face of murderboner, reduced to flailing about screaming for sec (who might be busy or dead). I also personally think it's boring to either be forced to play an antag hunter job or not be able to fight the badguys at all. "That time the changeling burst into science and got a slime thrown at his face" is more interesting to me than "someone called for help and security responded by tasing and cuffing the suspect"

2)Rev/gang/and to some extent cult/changeling/shadowling thralls rely on improvised weapons. Not everyone gets a PDA.

3) Buffing (how? better weapons?) traitors doesn't really help with the surveillance everywhere. Giving the old ebow back wouldn't stop the AI from seeing you, it'd just make you leave a longer trail of bodies on your way out.

[QuartzCrystal]

Anyway feel free to call me dumb, I'm probably overreacting to the issue, but the AI/borg/head/sec surveillance state is just silly right now.

You're dumb. Vast majority of these proposals are bad.

[onleavedontatme]

Anyway feel free to call me dumb, I'm probably overreacting to the issue, but the AI/borg/head/sec surveillance state is just silly right now.

You're dumb. Vast majority of these proposals are bad.

Do you have any reasons why/other proposals for Scones issue, or do you believe it doesn't exist?

And vast majority means you don't think all of them are bad, which did you like?

[QuartzCrystal]

Anyway feel free to call me dumb, I'm probably overreacting to the issue, but the AI/borg/head/sec surveillance state is just silly right now.

You're dumb. Vast majority of these proposals are bad.

Do you have any reasons why/other proposals for Scones issue, or do you believe it doesn't exist?

And vast majority means you don't think all of them are bad, which did you like?

I miss the days of single click camera cutting.


I personally think the issue can be solved by giving security the proper means to process criminals so that way they actually arrest people for minor crimes (as in, everything that isn't murder) and people don't yakkity sax from security all the time. I play as clown and I can get away with so much shit because security just rather not waste time arresting me because A) I'll probably yakkity sax and B) it takes like, 10 minutes to brig someone for 5. If security actually had some incentive to arrest criminals (and criminals actually had some incentive to be arrested, like it being easier to just accept the 2 minutes as opposed to running around until sec get bored) then traitors could get away with more shit. Leave the traitor hunting to the detective.

[leibniz]

I think boxstation is great, but meta's huge maint and large random common areas (garden, whatever) are also great, I wish we had a combination of the two.
I guess some people were frustrated by the huge maint-maze but I enjoyed it.

[Arete]

other stuff

Man, if Sec is too busy to deal with a murderboner, then the station deserves what's coming to it. I'd sign up for officer just to be able to shout "THIS IS YOUR FAULT!" at graytiders in deadchat.

It's a legitimate issue that jobs that don't hunt antags don't have equally cool things to replace it, but I don't think the solution is to make security redundant. Giving cool toys to security and having them give you preferential treatment in terms of stationing themselves nearby or giving you guns first when they're being handed out at the brig is a neat interaction on its own, and I think it's just more interesting if not every crewmember is a one man army on his own. Basically, people who want their experience to be hunting bad guys should be picking the bad guy hunter role, and if they aren't then there's a flaw in the game design somewhere.

The balance of the other game modes is fine in this regard, I think. Note that I'm not saying improvised weapons should be removed, I'm saying that traitor roles specifically (probably including changelings) could use a buff.

As for what that buff entails, I'll admit that I'm not quite sure. Maybe they should be able to buy some flashbangs, teargas, and other stuff that security is most equipped to counter but is very deadly against normal crew. Portable forcefield generators to help them escape and continue to terrorize the station even when found out and momentarily thwarted. Single-use teleporters to get into secure areas and cause mischief without random hall wanderers coming in after them. In general, a cost decrease on the nonlethal gear that's presently rarely bought.

It just seems to me like the atmosphere this game aims for can't be achieved when people are eager to confront a traitor one-on-one rather than afraid of the prospect.

[QuartzCrystal]

Hard population cap at 50.

[Falamazeer]

Godamn, all the deleted comments make it hard to tell what the fuck is being said to who.
Anyways, Security can easily find itself to busy to confront a murderboner, Wizard being a prime example, Wherin security and every other fuck tard is rushing in, magic missile drops the room, and then the officer is stuck spending the rest of his round dealing with the janitor who picked up his gun and kept mopping.

You can't even get cloned without your savior emptying your pockets, and after you lose your gun, you are less than worthless, you are a liability to your comrades.
There really should be a division in your antag hunters and you're random douchebag, but fuck if I know how to go about it.

[Steelpoint]

I'll write up my full opinion when I get to a computer but to summate I feel this is just yet another case of 'remove everything I dislike and let god sort it out'.

[Scott]

I agree with Arete, buff traitors.

[Steelpoint]

One idea for a map is to create two versions of boxstation, the standard map for around 60 players and a 'expanded' map for over 60 players that is only used if there are more than 60 people ready to play a round pre game start. The expanded map would feature a larger and expanded maintenance, additional job slots (maybe one extra slot per department) and overall more space in the public access areas. If such a system is possible I would be more than happy to map a 'expanded' version of Box.

On topic, I feel that nerfing Security is a bad way to approach this.

--------------------

Firstly lets look at some official statistics on this issue: http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/latest_stats.html
Some thoughts.

• A traitor has, overall, a 32% chance of succeeding all of their objectives. I should STRESS however that this stat is based on a traitor accomplishing all of their objectives.
• When looking at individual objectives, assassinations tend to do well while escaping tends to be doing poorly.

It seems that the biggest problem with traitors is not in them doing their job on station, its just surviving that job to escape the station. Sadly there's no way to track how exactly a traitor fails, such as just being dead or in security custody.

--------------------

Kor's suggestions of essentially gutting Security at its core is, to be frank, a shit way in going forward with this. Though he does have a few interesting points but overall I disagree with the idea.

We can go on about buffing or nerfing traitors or security but I think, at least from everything I can see (stats and experience) that population is the biggest factor to a antag winning, as noted in the OP. So I think a far more eloquent solution would be to expand boxstation as per my first suggestion at the start of this post.

[Oldman Robustin]

I've been planning a thread like this, but like the OP I felt like the issue would require a long dissertation that I'm really not in the mood for.

Hard cap is a red herring and the people pushing for it are just taking another step at reducing the appealing attributes of Sybil while getting nothing good in return.

I disagree that population is the issue here. Yes population does affect balance but only Nukeops/Blob/Wizard gametypes are dramatically affected. High pop can be a mixed blessing for many antags since more maint lurkers = more targets to stealthily kill and steal their ID's/Identities and other goodies they might have allowing me to ramp up my options for antagonism. As station pop goes down, maint becomes deserted and I'm forced to try and carry out hostile activity on camera... which... well we know how that goes.

The BIG 3 issues are:

1) Traitors have been neutered by coders, their ability to antagonize has been gutted. I used to feel a lot more paranoia on SS13, when I'd be working in a room and a new face showed up - I'd be a little on edge. Now with traitors having their most potent hostile tools (c4, parapen) nerfed and given nothing redeeming in return, traitors have all but given up on overt hostility. Outside of hacking the AI or releasing the singularity, no traitor is ever going to pose a serious risk to the station. Gibbing is nearly impossible, victims will be revived as fast as you can kill them, spacing bodies is mandatory but is only realistically possible if you're only killing in maint. It's gotten to the point that if I'm on camera, I don't really fear death anymore. I suggested an even cheaper emag alternative, perhaps even a default traitor item with 0TC cost, call it a doorjack, let it force on power/raise bolts of any door its used on. Balance could dictate whether it also opens the door regardless of ID access but at the very least it should let you escape your own department if the AI catches you being harmful. It has a very narrow purpose compared to the emag, but it doesn't leave doors jammed open (drawing a ton of attention) and it lets you escape the AI ruining your traitor round in Two Seconds with a CLICK, CONTROL+CLICK.

2) AI. We all know this. 'Doorjack' covers on facet of this but the other aspects boil down to nearly universal camera presence. EVERY DEPARTMENT SHOULD HAVE A SIGNIFICANT BLIND SPOT (i.e. test science is blind, SMES room is blind, surgery/morgue is blind, etc...). The ability of the AI to instantly track any voice on radio, which I haven't heard a compelling reason for keeping, if you want AI to open your door just state a location you lazy bum. The LOL CREW MONITORING BUTTON, another 'quality of life' change that weakens the traitor/ling game. And of course the hotkeyed door controls. Also if helmet cams are still a thing they need to die in a fucking fire, fuck whoever thought that was a good idea. Seriously, fuck that. Traitors/Lings need MUCH more robust options for staying out of AI view without maint lurking or blasting EMP's that let everyone in your entire wing know that an antag is nearby (while also shocking/bolting your escape route). Traitors getting a cheap 'camera jammer' that silently disables all camera in an extremely wide radius, the electrical storm frying all cameras in addition to lights, or a tool that simply prevents the AI from tracking anyone near you. Lings need these anti-camera options too.

3) Population scaling. Like the OP said, getting 5 traitors in a 60 person game is pretty much extended. I complained about traitor rounds being completely uneventful before I left a year ago, since then some shithead thought it would be good to nerf the traitor ratio hard and leave us with the pants-on-head retarded situation where a crew could have more fucking nukeops show up than actual traitors for certain population numbers. We need more traitors, period.


So in conclusion, hard cap isn't going to do anything... traitor sucks at any population until you get so small that nobody is playing security/AI, then traitors gets its groove back for all the wrong reasons. Anyone thinking a cap is going to fix how completely impotent traitors are right now is crossing the line into delusional town (I actually prefer 60+ as a traitor for reasons mentioned above, it gives me more opportunities to kill off camera for ID's that let me kill on camera without being properly named).

[Malkevin]

Bring back synthetics only being able to speak on the binary channel.



Also what exactly do people mean by feature creep for security?
The only things I can think of are the change of the armor system (which I said to skorvold that the resistance values needed adjusting)
And lately being able to stick a flash light on your helmet (big wow) and some camera thing that doesn't get that much use.

I guess there is also Sec huds being able to set arrest status on the fly, but thats been in for almost as long as I've been here.


In actuality they've been nerfed heavily.

Tasers are useless because they fire only once per second, and stun for too short a time to actually cuff them without having to bonk them with a stun baton first, and can only hit people on screen.
Flashes are completely useless now against organics.
Flashbangs... still a bit too powerful but having them go off in your hand (same tile as you?) stuns you for the full length - so no kami-banging anymore.
Security is forced to use disablers, which require 3 hits in quick succession otherwise the perp recovers the stamina damage in no time, and once down they're only down for as long as a hit from a taser anyway. Using disable mode also gives you less effective shots than tasers - it takes a minimum of 3 hits for a disabler to do what a taser does, yet you only get 20 shots in disable mode.
Stuns on the whole got nerfed massively - which means dealing with more than one person is practically impossible unless you perform the toggle-stun harmbaton chain beating on both perps (good luck not getting banned for this)

Beepsky and sec borgs also got a massive nerf, getting zip cuffs instead of normal cuffs - which only take a quarter of the time to resist out of, not only does this mean you've got an incredibly short length of time to actually get their before the perp resists out and absconds but it also massively screws with your time - plenty of times I've seen someone resist whilst the officer is talking to them and escape before the officer realises in time to interrupt their resist attempt.

The sec vendor also had most of its supply of cuffs replaced with zip ties, which are one use items and are crab for the above reasons.

[DemonFiren]

TL;DR, sec sucks because thanks paprika for making stuns useless, and because sec officers almost have to use cablecuffs now.