AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

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Scones
 
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AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Mon May 18, 2015 6:49 am #88919

Leave your vitriolic remarks, strawman rants, and derailing personal agendas at the door, please.

I'm not a fan of huge OPs, so I'll quote myself from another thread in lieu of writing a fresh one:
Scones wrote:The AI in it's current state is already the death of all antagonists. It's instant and near-limitless control of the station, combined with both the obligations of the only lawsets uploaded to it and the attitude of the majority of AI players, make it a more or less impossible-to-beat opponent unless you gear yourself very specifically; even then, you have no way to stop it from bolting you down or depowering the areas around you. It has a god-like presence on the station that is used almost exclusively to help Security and the crew at large deal with antagonists when it's not being the doorknob.

For those of you who for some reason doubt or disagree, I challenge you to observe several traitor/ling/DA rounds and note how many antags are completely obliterated by the AI being omnipresent. Beyond that, the fact that Operatives are more or less forced to make a serious investment of time, TC, or both into dealing with the AI is rather ridiculous, and only further indicative of how massively strong the role is.

I don't know how to fix this. Proposed nerfs feel like they would just be moving backwards by reverting quality-of-life additions. Frankly, I think that no AI works absolutely fine, but given the number of coders who play the role (and vocal players), it would never be removed. However, I think there is something to be said for a station where you do not have the constant overwatch of a machine-god upon you. The paranoia is more real. When someone screams for help, there is no voice there to say "; Greyshirt McToolbox is a Changeling and has killed Sally Stutterlips in Medbay. Bolting and venting.". When you need a door opened, you get access, you call an Engineer, or you open it yourself.


All in all, the AI makes station life easier for crew and harder for antags by such a massive degree that I think it has little place here without being severely tweaked.


I'd like to hear constructive feedback on how we can mitigate AI presence without crippling it. Personally, I think one-click camera disabling without an alarm for the AI would be absolutely fine. You stand still for three seconds with wirecutters, snip. It wouldn't be a huge nerf but it would allow people to create blindspots more easily.

This topic has been spilling out into other threads more than I think it should. Redirect all discussion here.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 18, 2015 6:55 am #88921

If we're looking to try and somewhat scale back the power of the AI in their ability to easily shut down most antagonists, I like Oldman's suggestion of giving traitors/op a cheap or free item (maybe a unlocked PDA?) that lets them raise the bolts on bolted doors. This means that at least a antag can still get out of a bad situation. Right now all a AI/Silicon has to do is bolt one or two doors and 80% of all antagonists have suddenly just lost. The counterbalance to this could be that you have to swipe your unlocked PDA on the door and you then cannot lock your PDA for half a minute

Another, easier, idea would be to simply remove the AI.

A final idea I can spitball is forcing the AI to have a physical presence on the station. So instead of being omnipotent with their AI vision they either have to use the security cameras manually or send in 'recon drones' as their eye's and ears. These recon drones act as the AI's main presence on the station and are a substitute for their normal AI camera.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Mon May 18, 2015 6:59 am #88923

I think the fact that the AI can just bolt things so easily is the root problem that needs to be addressed. This is about the AI, not creating workarounds to circumvent a broken core system.

Just remove AI-EYE. Force manual camera swap and remove tracking.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Remie Richards » Mon May 18, 2015 7:20 am #88927

Scones wrote:Just remove AI-EYE. Force manual camera swap and remove tracking.


This is overkill, it just sounds like "I ded pls nerf" now.
If this change was made, the AI job would not be played.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby oranges » Mon May 18, 2015 7:25 am #88932

Steelpoint wrote:If we're looking to try and somewhat scale back the power of the AI in their ability to easily shut down most antagonists, I like Oldman's suggestion of giving traitors/op a cheap or free item (maybe a unlocked PDA?) that lets them raise the bolts on bolted doors. This means that at least a antag can still get out of a bad situation. Right now all a AI/Silicon has to do is bolt one or two doors and 80% of all antagonists have suddenly just lost. The counterbalance to this could be that you have to swipe your unlocked PDA on the door and you then cannot lock your PDA for half a minute

Another, easier, idea would be to simply remove the AI.

A final idea I can spitball is forcing the AI to have a physical presence on the station. So instead of being omnipotent with their AI vision they either have to use the security cameras manually or send in 'recon drones' as their eye's and ears. These recon drones act as the AI's main presence on the station and are a substitute for their normal AI camera.


It's called C4 and it will go through most obstructions

edit: I reckon remove AI interaction with doors (they don't like to be doorknobs anyway right?) leave the borgs as it' door knockers.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby oranges » Mon May 18, 2015 7:26 am #88933

Oh and then it will need a malf power to let it doorjack again.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Mon May 18, 2015 7:43 am #88943

I fear the steady storm of greyshits yelling 'AI ROGUE WON'T OPEN DOOR FOR ME' intensifying further if this happens.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 18, 2015 8:17 am #88952

Hmm antagonists being too weak. Couldn't be caused by too many nerfs or dumb gimmick theme changes no sir.

The cheap item for traitors to escape enclosure is called c4. Blow things up to get out. Agent ID serves the same purpose, nukes have it default. Rampant emaging makes the AI mostly irrelevant if you want to be proactive.

Changeling is screwed. That's ling's problem though.

Best way to nerf AI is probably map design. Space out cameras take a few more room off the grid that sort of thing. A gradual and nuanced alternative to REMOVE ALL AIS SO I CAN VALID KILL HARDER!
Or you could re-simplify camera disabling, used to be you could just rampantly one shot them with wire cutters to keep the AI at bay.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Oldman Robustin » Mon May 18, 2015 10:03 am #88977

oranges wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:If we're looking to try and somewhat scale back the power of the AI in their ability to easily shut down most antagonists, I like Oldman's suggestion of giving traitors/op a cheap or free item (maybe a unlocked PDA?) that lets them raise the bolts on bolted doors. This means that at least a antag can still get out of a bad situation. Right now all a AI/Silicon has to do is bolt one or two doors and 80% of all antagonists have suddenly just lost. The counterbalance to this could be that you have to swipe your unlocked PDA on the door and you then cannot lock your PDA for half a minute

Another, easier, idea would be to simply remove the AI.

A final idea I can spitball is forcing the AI to have a physical presence on the station. So instead of being omnipotent with their AI vision they either have to use the security cameras manually or send in 'recon drones' as their eye's and ears. These recon drones act as the AI's main presence on the station and are a substitute for their normal AI camera.


It's called C4 and it will go through most obstructions

edit: I reckon remove AI interaction with doors (they don't like to be doorknobs anyway right?) leave the borgs as it' door knockers.


Suggestions like that obliterate your credibility. Suggesting traitors spend 5% of their TC to sit around for 20 seconds while they plant a charge, wait for the timer, and then get out just to bypass a bolted door is silly. Plus in many rooms that just gets you to another area where the AI bolts you in.

I support a doorjacker since it doesn't "move backwards on quality of life" like OP wanted to avoid. I also wouldn't mind seeing SOME "quality of life" things reverted. Key+Click combos for door interaction is one of them, being able to bolt 3-4 exits to a room in under 2 seconds is part of what makes AI such an antag smashing god.

I'd also like to see AI's defenses scaled back. Obviously not so much that malf becomes a joke, but currently the AI is NEVER at risk of death unless syndieborg/singularity or it openly provokes the entire station as malf/tater. There was a time where traitors could destroy the AI as a way of giving themselves some space, but now the time/risk/TC investment ensures that AI's are absurdly safe. For the amount of power that the AI wields, they should not be so incredibly insulated from danger. I can't even remember the last time an antag was able to kill/steal the AI since it's easier to turn the damn thing to your side than actually break in and card it.

Removing AI's doorknob powers altogether is another interesting suggestion, though it would add many headaches for crew in emergency situations, I don't think it's feasible to remove door control entirely but removing the ability to shock/bolt/crush/etc. would be a better middle-ground.

I think adding more cheap anti-AI options for the most vulnerable antags is going to be the most palatable route forward, lings need some love too since EMP is crucial for keeping AI off your back but it's also just as likely to bolt/shock the door you need to escape.

One major idea that few others seem to discuss is my favorite though: MAKE EVERY DEPARTMENT HAVE A NO-CAMERA ZONE. Give people a way to ANTAGONIZE without having to be in maintenance or tip off the AI with camera cuts. A few blind spots in decent places would go a long way to giving antags some space against the AI.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby hanshansenhansson » Mon May 18, 2015 10:09 am #88979

Removing the AI's ability to jump to the source of radio messages would be a good step. Might suck for door opening, but if you are currently attacked in camera vision, all you have to do to get out is "HELP" and all doors are bolted.

Together with the AI-Multitool every traitor should buy anyways, you can finally stab people again.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby LNGLY » Mon May 18, 2015 10:18 am #88982

Increase the telecrystal cost of the 'is the AI looking at me?' traitor item and give it an activation effect that makes nearby radio messages unheard by any silicons. That would mostly do it for traitors. The unbolter thing would also be good. I've always wondered why emags don't have a mode that lets them emag open bolted airlocks.

For lings, I don't know. Adaptive camouflage buff probably. The examine thing would need to go. Maybe let changelings squeeze through bolted airlocks over the course of 30 seconds or so.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Arete » Mon May 18, 2015 10:58 am #88989

As a high-priority AI player, I'm definitely in favor of one-click no-alarm camera disabling, anti-bolting doorjack items, and more areas without camera coverage.

That said, I think some more strictly-enforced policy could help too. Asimov AIs should not be validhunting human antagonists. Even in nuke op rounds, the most they should be doing is trying to isolate the crew from the ops and the ops from each other. If security are saying to each other "This guy has an emag, let's get him," the AI should be wanting to help that traitor escape the station safely, 'cause an emag isn't that often used as a murder weapon, but possessing one is a capital crime.

I see Asimov AIs as primarily an anti-murderboner force.

If the command staff want the AI to validhunt for them, they should have to upload Robocop, PALADIN, or a well-worded freeform law. And choosing one of those lawsets should open up other risks, like a changeling impersonating the HoS and exploiting their authority to the fullest. Picking a good alternative lawset should be something that happens almost every round, rather than something that only happens under extreme circumstances and often not even then.

Having a fully Asimov AI round after round is just a boring waste, both for the AI player and for those playing with the AI. The lawset system is interesting, it should be taken advantage of!

On that note, I think the AI should have less control over updates to its own laws. I'd favor removing the AI's control over its upload turrets and maybe even removing its camera coverage over its own upload. Too often I say "Law 1, can't do that" to someone with legitimate access to my upload, and they just give up entirely. Control over their own uploads is too often used by AIs who just don't want to play along with any lawset but Asimov.

Essentially, I think that while some nerfs to AIs would be fine, it's also important to turn them into less of a purely anti-antagonist force in the first place.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 18, 2015 11:01 am #88990

One of the things that gets oft drilled into the heads of mappers it to ensure any area you map has full camera coverage (barring maintenance areas), this is a potential lead into why the station has very good camera coverage because mappers are heavily encouraged to ensure they put cameras in areas.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 12:29 pm #89006

As a high-priority AI player, here's my list of badly-needed nerfs

1) ONE CLICK CAMERA CUTS. Give it a 2% chance of triggering an alarm and not cutting though, so shitlords who cut every cam get busted
2) Fewer cameras. The only rooms which should ever have more than one camera are the hallways. Deadzones are fine, just try and keep doors on it
3) Remove jump-to-name . Not only does it let you catch changelings (Captain who's been speaking a lot's link goes green? Ling), but it creates the sense that the AI is here to solve all your woes instantly
4) Lower the number of turrets in the AI upload, remove the turrets in the AI foyer. Give malf/traitor AIs a verb to pop-up emergency turrets in those areas.
5) Digital Camo making you invisible to the AI

Things I disagree with:
1) Removing the AI (overreacting, steelpoint)
2) Removing the AI's door access (nooooooo)
3) Removing the AI Eye function ( I played AI on goon once, it was HORRIBLE)
4) Putting the AI back on-station (it left for malf/traitor balance, and it's unfair to put them back)

Things I think are pretty cool:
1)Making remote activity require a drone to be nearby (maybe within 1-2 areas), so you dont need to actually use your drone to interact with the things, but you can't control everything everywhere
2)Letting the AI hijack repair/maintenance drones to carry out its nefarious deeds for it
3)Encouraging the staff to change the lawset more often. Maybe add more different boards, like Britimov, or Hippocratic.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Mon May 18, 2015 12:43 pm #89012

I play AI frequently. While I think a lot of this is playstyle -- people almost never cut the AI wires, let alone buy the AI detector -- I can go for some changes. Specifically I would prefer a push-pull sort of system:

- Traitor cyborgs re-added. There is no reason not to have them, a traitor AI is far more overpowered than a traitor borg will ever be, and it undermines the initial "lol i go secborg validhunters are go" rush that some silicon players opt for, if there's a chance the borg might not be playing along.

- More blind spots in AI camera coverage (either via mapping, reducing range, a random Camera Outage event -- probably some kind of fluff about an electromagnetic pulse field in space or whatever);

- More freedom, in policy, for the AI to deny Law 2 requests and/or bolt areas. It's less that the AI hinders traitors, more that the AI completely shuts down interesting traitor subterfuge/stealth kills and makes theft stupidly easy. Currently it's kind of ridiculous and makes traitor objectives that don't involve murder stupidly easy. The objectives are balanced around people not being able to AI OPEN their way into just anywhere (look at what's happened to EVA).

Although I do agree that it should be easier and more accepted for people to get into the upload. Maybe some sort of policy understanding and/or lawset update that the AI has some concept of the chain of command and generally agrees that it is in place to best prevent harm.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 12:49 pm #89014

I think that the order in which the Command staff should have control over AI laws should go like this

[The AI during a revolution]
The RD
The Captain
The CE
The AI
The HOP
The CMO
The HOS
[everyone else]
The HOS if he's been bashing dudes.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Mon May 18, 2015 12:57 pm #89016

I say, electric storms should have a chance to blow cameras instead of lights only.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Mon May 18, 2015 1:12 pm #89021

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:I think that the order in which the Command staff should have control over AI laws should go like this

[The AI during a revolution]
The RD
The Captain
The CE
The AI
The HOP
The CMO
The HOS
[everyone else]
The HOS if he's been bashing dudes.


Switch Captain/RD and HoP/CE (why is the CE fucking with the AI) and I'm cool with this.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon May 18, 2015 1:24 pm #89022

1) Remove sec borg
2) Remove AI

90% of all silicon problems solved.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Bluespace » Mon May 18, 2015 1:26 pm #89023

Make unlocked PDAs unbolt doors.
Unlocked PDA on a camera causes it to spark, then display a loop (static image overlayed on the area it'd normally see.)
"JOHN SMITH MURDERING ME IN TOXINS."
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Celdur » Mon May 18, 2015 1:43 pm #89026

Bolt shortcut clicking is probably the biggest offender, if that gets removed they probably won't have enough time to lock down an antag in most cases.
But I agree that the AI shouldn't even be validhunting in the first place.
I remember when that didn't happen though. I also remember when AI's would usually bolt down EVA and wouldn't just let anyone in. Same with a few other high profile areas like comms or whatever.
Bolting areas just because something might happen is a bit too much, but there's definitely been a shift in AI mentality.
That might just have happened because it's just too easy to fuck over antags, but either way we should encourage AI's to not intervene too much.

I also like the idea of less camera coverage, science testing lab is a good example, there really don't need to be any cameras there.
The lightsout event should also fuck up cameras though. Right now that event is just a nuisance if anything, but if cameras went out as well people would feel a lot less safe there.
That's the biggest problem for me right now, people don't fear anything. AI makes it so that you're safe anywhere in camera coverage.
Maint used to be a scary place, that's mostly changed because lings just do their business out in the open without any real danger, but also because antags have so much less power now.
But that's for another thread I guess.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 18, 2015 1:47 pm #89028

I suppose we could look at structuring station security measures based on some arbitrary importance factor. Meaning higher security areas of the station (The Bridge| All Security | Most of Science) have very intense camera layouts where as middling or low security areas (Cargo | Public access areas) have less intense security camera coverage.

This would require a lot of effort, not on the mapping part but on figuring out where we should lessen the security camera coverage.

Every area of the station should have some camera coverage, but that does not mean it has to be 'perfect' coverage of a area.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 18, 2015 2:05 pm #89034

Traitor
C4
1 telecrystal (last I checked)
Door/wall goes boom

traitor least of all doesn't need a get out of room free card they have the cheap option goodness gracious.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Cheridan » Mon May 18, 2015 2:18 pm #89040

Why are you c4ing an airlock? Because the AI bolted it? Because if the AI bolted it then the sec force and 3 assistants are already on the other side waiting for you.

DemonFiren wrote:I say, electric storms should have a chance to blow cameras instead of lights only.

Doesn't really help the issue. Electric storms don't happen every round and until a storm passes through you still have a fully operational machine god

An0n3 wrote:1) Remove sec borg
2) Remove AI

this please; quick and easy.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Timbrewolf » Mon May 18, 2015 2:22 pm #89042

You're a headcoder.

Just do it man.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Mon May 18, 2015 2:25 pm #89043

Cheridan wrote:Why are you c4ing an airlock? Because the AI bolted it? Because if the AI bolted it then the sec force and 3 assistants are already on the other side waiting for you.

DemonFiren wrote:I say, electric storms should have a chance to blow cameras instead of lights only.

Doesn't really help the issue. Electric storms don't happen every round and until a storm passes through you still have a fully operational machine god

An0n3 wrote:1) Remove sec borg
2) Remove AI

this please; quick and easy.

Maybe not every round on Sybil, but Basil gets zapped enough to darken the entire station.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Atlanta-Ned » Mon May 18, 2015 2:26 pm #89044

I don't think AI needs a door nerf. As it stands, 90% of the station's doors are in place because it's faster to ask the AI to open a door than it is to break through a window. Trying to contain someone who wants to get out is like trying to catch water in a sieve.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 18, 2015 2:36 pm #89048

Cheridan wrote:Why are you c4ing an airlock? Because the AI bolted it? Because if the AI bolted it then the sec force and 3 assistants are already on the other side waiting for you.

C4 takes like seconds man. If the AI bolting you matters at all the security are coming closer damn soon.

The free unlocked pdas being micro emags thing would be irrelevant too if they were already there.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Gun Hog » Mon May 18, 2015 2:37 pm #89050

AI players are anti-antagonist because going against a protagonist crew while not an antagonist yourself will never end well for them. I have had the 'neutrality' mindset hammered out of me through very harsh and ruined rounds. Trying to stop harmful Security members is pointless. In the rules page, it says you are supposed to stop a hamrful officer but NOT the rest of Sec as well. This is nigh-impossible as Security members tend to support each other, so locking one down will make the whole department your enemy. Go on, try to stop that HoS who just beat a traitor to death. Sec has to kill people as part of their job, and while many of those kills are valid both OOC and in IC Space Law, the AI is not supposed to allow it.

I believe it is this behavior change in the silicon players that has ultimately prompted this. Increased anti-AI sentiment among human players and certain meta-triggers means that AI players walk a thin line in their interactions with the crew. Some people seem to claim the AI is rogue if it does not respond in time (I am serious, I have honestly seen players break into my chamber thinking I was rogue, only to find me already dead!). It simply does not pay to play the "neutral" line in such an environment. People will get suspicious, and begin to cut cameras. Simply nerfing several vital functions of the AI may succeed in making stealth based antagonists more powerful, but it does nothing to stop the community aspect of it. If anything, it implies that the silicon players SHOULD side only with protagonists and security. These proposed nerfs will push the AI to rely much more on Sec to follow its Law 1 - this is only made harder for the AI if Sec goes lethal, as alone it would become nearly blind and ineffective in its job, which is to keep people from killing each other. (Note: Save yourself the headaches and treat lizard players as humans unless they kill humans)

The AI role has potential for high levels of stress on the player, just below that of Captain, HoS, and Security Officer. If that role is not rewarding in some way, and incentives for that role are collectively not considered worth that stress, the role becomes undesirable. I already know that there is nothing I can do to stop or slow this campaign, I just ask you to please give fair consideration to all three sides (antagonist, victim, AI). Whatever end you seek to achieve, have it so that:

- Antagonists will likely succeed with proper preparation, and fail if they do not plan according to their situation.
Failure to handle this can result in unrestricted murderbone if it favors antags too much, and it can result in near zero activity or capture if it favors protagonists.

- Civilian protagonists have some way to survive or get help, but will die to a prepared antagonist. This includes the AI and civilian cyborg types.
Favoring antagonists too much here will make rounds quite short and unpleasant for civilians (think of the pre-nerf :pen: :c4: combo here). Conversely, being too safe will remove the interesting parts of the game for certain jobs (Doctor, Botanist, Chaplain, Lawyer, etc).

- Roles dedicated to protecting the civilians (Silicons and Security) must be effective at stopping antagonists, but not so much to discourage antagonists trying.
These roles thrive in the conflict. Be it grey-tide, antagonists, or violent people in general, these roles provide the "good" side of the conflict against the "evil" side. For the AI, it is managing the information it receives regarding a threat and relaying it to Security, who handle the task of actually combating the antagonist. The AI currently also has the role of containment. Humanoid antagonists are at a disadvantage when they cannot escape, and there is where Security is most effective against them. That being said, Conflict between antagonists and protagonists must occur. Antagonists must be powerful enough to not fear attempting to create conflict, and protagonists must be able to respond in some fashion.

The way I see it, Antagonists fear containment too much to assault someone. Being on the run from the defenders is fun, being captured easily is not. I believe efforts should be focused on reducing the ability to contain antagonists rather than simply making them more stealthy (changeling is an example of an antag which has stealth but little potency). This includes Security's ability to contain antagonists. Focus on making it so it is possible for antagonists to [i]escape[/b] and re-engage when ready. If antagonists can have open conflict with people without it being a near guaranteed loss, I feel it can fulfill the need for more conflict which fuels these roles.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 2:48 pm #89058

When discussing the AI, it's also vital to remember that the AI has an entire gamemode devoted to it fighting the entire crew virtually solo. Unfortunately, most of it's robustest strategies for fighting the crew are exactly the same as it's strategies when fighting antags, or when hijacked by traitors.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Mon May 18, 2015 2:58 pm #89060

Also solo stealth antagonists will seem to suck because one half of the proper solo class is the crippled pathetic changeling, skewing perspectives. Traitors can do okay they can spawn the tools to say BREAK A WALL if they really need to.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Arete » Mon May 18, 2015 3:05 pm #89064

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:When discussing the AI, it's also vital to remember that the AI has an entire gamemode devoted to it fighting the entire crew virtually solo. Unfortunately, most of it's robustest strategies for fighting the crew are exactly the same as it's strategies when fighting antags, or when hijacked by traitors.


The extra tools that malf AIs can buy are an attempt to decouple the two different possible AI roles, at least. Anything taken away from the AI now should probably be accompanied by an extra malf module and the points to buy it. I'm thinking along the lines of "extra camera range" to compensate for removed cameras, for example.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Mon May 18, 2015 3:21 pm #89070

Arete wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:When discussing the AI, it's also vital to remember that the AI has an entire gamemode devoted to it fighting the entire crew virtually solo. Unfortunately, most of it's robustest strategies for fighting the crew are exactly the same as it's strategies when fighting antags, or when hijacked by traitors.


The extra tools that malf AIs can buy are an attempt to decouple the two different possible AI roles, at least. Anything taken away from the AI now should probably be accompanied by an extra malf module and the points to buy it. I'm thinking along the lines of "extra camera range" to compensate for removed cameras, for example.


Doesn't malf have this already? Though no one ever takes it.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Mon May 18, 2015 3:21 pm #89071

I think part of the issue is that people think the AI should be safeguarding the crew from antagonists. In reality, it should just be helping them, not going after antags.

Just remove it, christ. I haven't died to direct AI interference in weeks but even from a detatched viewpoint I can see how awful it is.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Cheridan » Mon May 18, 2015 3:26 pm #89074

Gun Hog wrote:AI players are anti-antagonist because going against a protagonist crew while not an antagonist yourself will never end well for them. I have had the 'neutrality' mindset hammered out of me through very harsh and ruined rounds. Trying to stop harmful Security members is pointless. In the rules page, it says you are supposed to stop a hamrful officer but NOT the rest of Sec as well. This is nigh-impossible as Security members tend to support each other, so locking one down will make the whole department your enemy. Go on, try to stop that HoS who just beat a traitor to death. Sec has to kill people as part of their job, and while many of those kills are valid both OOC and in IC Space Law, the AI is not supposed to allow it.


This is all too true. Basically the whole reason for the AI is that it's a third party that was as likely to protect a traitor or wizard from harm as anyone else. However the AI's role as peacekeeper has been severely diminished, especially with the addition of the camera-free "Prisoner Transfer Room" where all those traitors you were supposed to keep alive somehow disappeared to!!
This is without even getting into the whole "Sec Borg says 'Please stop beating the wizard to death guys' a couple times while watching him die" players.

So the only role it has left anymore is Antag Catcha 9000, and Station Incineration Manager.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 18, 2015 3:27 pm #89075

I wonder if it would be a interesting idea to remove the AI for a set period of time (two weeks or a month) and see how the servers hold up. It would be a genuinely massive change to the game and it can go either way in terms of it being good or bad.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Mon May 18, 2015 3:35 pm #89079

Steelpoint wrote:I wonder if it would be a interesting idea to remove the AI for a set period of time (two weeks or a month) and see how the servers hold up. It would be a genuinely massive change to the game and it can go either way in terms of it being good or bad.


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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 3:58 pm #89093

I'm pretty sure it's actually a config, having an AI or not. Even if it isn't, it's not even a big change to make (codewise) - just remove it from the list of spawning jobs.

Of course, R&D can still build one.
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Of course it's also a terrible idea seeing as historically, a "test period" has ALWAYS meant "We're pushing this through ans nobody can stop us, we will not accept reversion PRs, and we WILL code important parts of the game to not allow it back in". Just saying.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Steelpoint » Mon May 18, 2015 4:10 pm #89102

I'm a proponent of testing periods only if the person doing the testing is adamant that after the testing period that the changes made are reverted, in the past the people calling for a testing period were never adamant in actually reverting their work after the period, or kept claiming their change was still in testing until it was accepted that the change was sticking.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Amelius » Mon May 18, 2015 4:48 pm #89118

Edit: One thing is that if you ARE going to change anything about the AI, I absolutely implore you to put it to a vote BEFORE application, because we all know that 'trial basis' is codeword for 'permanent change' here.

Make EMPs not set off a billion red-text alarms. Seriously, it makes the camera bug kinda useless. That said, snipping cameras do not cause alarms, unless you trip the alarm wire / don't use a multitool like an idiot, insofar I know. If this isn't the case, then what the fuck is the point of the alarm wire?

Honestly, I don't think the A.I. needs any overt nerfs, especially the more recent quality-of-life benefits, since it's fairly balanced against all but traitors. It should be a monolith to begin with, otherwise subverting the AI would be kinda useless, and malf would just be even harder. Plus, there are some antags that the AI is literally 'I have no mouth and I must scream'-tier, like blob or nuke ops.

I'd suggest buffing traitors first before nerfing the AI, similarly, I'd buff (free implants goddamnit) nuke ops before nerfing the crew. Just my 2c.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 4:59 pm #89122

Nuke ops? Pull the fire-alarm to slow them down then begin bolting doors.
Blob? Not your game mode.
Ling? Bolt them down and then take the number of the monkey they turn into
Gang? ":S the gang leader is Jacob Griffson"
Rev? ":s The revhead is the clown, take him to the gulag"
Traitor? Bolt everything within a mile of the murder
Shadowling? Bolt all the maint doors. Nobody in maint = no thralls = no ascendant = no harm
Ayyyliens? Oh look there are two people with the same name, this one is just wandering around. ":s...", or even just bepskers.
Xenoes? Nope.
Malf? Turn off their APC and unlock their doors while disabling their turrets (applies only to created AIs)
Wizard? Either he instakills you or you act as supercop.
I ran out of antags.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Amelius » Mon May 18, 2015 7:42 pm #89158

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Nuke ops? Pull the fire-alarm to slow them down then begin bolting doors.
Blob? Not your game mode.
Ling? Bolt them down and then take the number of the monkey they turn into
Gang? ":S the gang leader is Jacob Griffson"
Rev? ":s The revhead is the clown, take him to the gulag"
Traitor? Bolt everything within a mile of the murder
Shadowling? Bolt all the maint doors. Nobody in maint = no thralls = no ascendant = no harm
Ayyyliens? Oh look there are two people with the same name, this one is just wandering around. ":s...", or even just bepskers.
Xenoes? Nope.
Malf? Turn off their APC and unlock their doors while disabling their turrets (applies only to created AIs)
Wizard? Either he instakills you or you act as supercop.
I ran out of antags.


Not sure what point you're trying to make. I guess it's just a list.

> Nuke ops.
It slows them down, and only slows them down. Bolted doors can slow you down more, but even then, there are plenty of counters (stealth emagger pre-attack, syndieborg, C4, etc.) A nuke op team that doesn't kill the AI (unless stealth/subvert) is a stupid op team in the first place, being able to call out their locations and track them anyway. Given how easily the AI is killed, either by a bomb and an ion rifle, or by a syndieborg, it's balanced imho.

> Blob.
Agreed. Boring as shit for AI.

> Ling.
The AI is very rarely effective, especially since they're almost always mixed with traitors, and they're supposed to be somewhat stealth in the first place. Given that the AI, as Asimov, has to take into account the miniscule chance that they're human before being able to apply lethal force (i.e. they need to visually see, or a borg must see them with an armblade/etc.), the most they can do is bolt. Then there's things like transformation sting that further confuses the issue, AND there's digital camoflauge if you really want to get away. Furthermore, they can escape through vents, as you mentioned, and even then, a quick vent hop to the dorms and waiting a cooloff period of 5~ min before transforming to another DNA is an easy, long-term escape. Balanced, imho.

> Gang.
AI, as Asimov should not be engaged in gang affairs. Announcing that 'the gang leader is X' is lunacy, in even worse taste than announcing 'X is a traitor', instead of leading the crew to ask those questions. Even then, the AI can't be sure of someone's status as a gang leader, nor necessarily aware of it in any greater capacity than security (conversion is done with pens, after all). They're basically a peacekeeper in this mode, but if both gangs start raping security/if they've become large enough, then obviously the AI is going to start bolting each other off. Even in validhunter mode (Robocop, pala), there's not much more it can do. Balanced, if not a bit on the side of the gang.

> Rev
I've never heard the AI say 'X is a revhead, take him to the gulag'. It's always after the person has been caught. Similar things to say about it as gang, but with 100% more bolting. As pala/robocop, the AI's powers are severely limited, as you cannot 'contain' the entire station from killing each other. Rev advantage.

> Traitor

Unbalanced, but only because traitors are declawed with all these fancy quality of life benefits and subtle traitor nerfs. That's more for the traitor thread, though. More TCs and/or a built in PDA unbolter (that prevents re-bolting for 20 ticks or so) with a mild delay on use would pretty fix it utterly.

> Shadowling

Utterly stealth antag that's 100% reliant on the robustness of the antag. If people know shadowlings are about before you have a few thralls, at least enough to unbolt parts of maintenance, you'd be fucked anyway with the crew knowing, with or without the AI. Similar to how a freshly-hatched blob being spotted is a death-sentence. There's also the alternative of taking out the lighting in the halls, which is fairly easy to accomplish, and fucking no one wants to replace lighting.

I've also actually never seen an AI bolt ALL the maintenance doors for shadowling rounds. At most, where they think they're convened. I'd say balanced.

> Ayyliens

They're new and need balancing. How often to AIs just go down the jump-to-camera list casually anyway? How would you know there aren't lings too? And so on. Unbalanced, but they feel like minor, round-event antags in the first place so imho this is kinda okay.

> Xenoes

Rape.

> Wizard.

AIs are mostly impotent or dead in wizard rounds, especially in the old survivor ones. Like, what can it really do? Track the wizard? But the wizard is gonna teleport seconds later, and a simple mask and ID from one of their many victims will make it difficult. It's a 1vcrew antag anyway, bolting does nothing against one, and electrocution is futile. Unbalanced, in favor of wizard (but this is OK).

> Malf.

Second AIs in malf are Hitler. There IS that ability that makes second AIs malf as well, if I recall correctly though.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Mon May 18, 2015 8:05 pm #89161

Help, someone is being sensible and reasonable in the Feedback Section.

I got triggered. ("Malf other silicons" never made it past suggestions, IIRC)
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby oranges » Mon May 18, 2015 8:52 pm #89171

Seriously just remove their door access, you'll probably find after that point that the AI isn't really useful for anything else and end up replacing it with more silicon or something.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby ThatSlyFox » Mon May 18, 2015 9:03 pm #89175

An0n3 wrote:1) Remove sec borg
2) Remove AI


This the only real option here. No point in buffing/adding items just to combat a OP entity. Knowing this community more buffs will come to the AI anyway.

Steelpoint wrote:I wonder if it would be a interesting idea to remove the AI for a set period of time (two weeks or a month) and see how the servers hold up. It would be a genuinely massive change to the game and it can go either way in terms of it being good or bad.

Nothing less than two weeks.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Amelius » Mon May 18, 2015 9:05 pm #89176

oranges wrote:Seriously just remove their door access, you'll probably find after that point that the AI isn't really useful for anything else and end up replacing it with more silicon or something.


Terrible idea. Malf AIs would get raped without even being able to bolt doors. AI would spend much of the round doing, well, nothing. Plus, why subvert an AI that can't even bolt their upload or atmos/telecomms/etc? As you said, you may as well remove the AI at that point.

Think out your ideas and the impact of them. You can't just say 'well, let's remove the AI' without a damn good reason for it. If certain antags have massive disadvantages against the AI, that isn't necessarily a problem in and of itself, as antagonists aren't supposed to be 1v1ing the AI easily anyway. If it's TOO stacked against the antagonist, then give them tools to escape (traitor PDA unbolter with a delay and maybe limited uses was the most obvious one). As I explained before, tators are the only one that have a monumental disadvantage, and they're underpowered and declawed generally, even just compared to security. That's a problem to be solved with buffing tators, not nerfing AIs.

At the same time, fun is had when both antagonists and security/crew are on equal footing in terms of capability. Too much weight toward the antagonists, and it's just a roll with a ton of people being taken out of the round (which is fun to be a crewmember on a dying station sometimes), too much weight toward the protagonists/sec, and nothing happens and people go afk/braindead out of boredom. Removing the AI would tilt the balance too far toward other, non-traitor antagonists, imho, even if it would 'balance' traitor.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incoming » Mon May 18, 2015 9:09 pm #89177

There's no ability for malf AIs to malf additional AIs that get built, it's just something admins usually do as a courtesy. If the second AI gets built extremely fast because there's no practical way to avoid getting your malf status revealed and potentially shutting off your APC before you notice they're around and do the same to them.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Oldman Robustin » Mon May 18, 2015 9:55 pm #89188

DemonFiren wrote:I say, electric storms should have a chance to blow cameras instead of lights only.


A simple straightforward change that helps limit the AI's omniscience, I like it.

@Amelius: You goddamn know that bit about lings isn't true. As an AI/Ling/Executioner a majority of incinerations/gibbings are based solely on unsubstantiated claims of the crew. If sec is dragging someone to the gibber and claims he's a ling because he kept getting up out of crit, I would allow them inside even though there's a fair chance they could be full of healing meds/implants. It's not worth the massive fight that ensues when sec declares the AI is protecting lings and everyone shits on you for the rest of the round/OOC after the round for not believing that someone was a ling. It happens practically every ling round and I've never seen admins intervene.


This discussion sounds just like the borg discussions I saw 2 years ago. Back then a secborg+engiborg could murder 50+ crew without breaking a sweat and the power they held was downright obscene, almost everyone agreed but it took YEARS for Borgs to be brought down to a reasonable strength. Same thing applies here, AI's been absurdly good for years, people are finally seeing the big picture and talking about it, and *hopefully* we will see the AI scaled back from its current antag-crushing god role. For me the problem boils down to the fact I used to feel fear on SS13, when someone started standing too close to me, or seemed like they were following me... I got worried. Now being on camera is the single most effective antag deterrent in existence and simply sitting in your department on camera is going to make you safe against all but a tiny fraction of the players who possess the knowledge and planning to avoid the AI's attention but that still means that an antag is having to investment an enormous amount of tine, energy, and resources just to deal with the AI and it completely stifles a majority of rounds where effective antags always have to buy the same items, take the same skills, use the same tactics, because anything deviating from this path will get you instadunked by the AI.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Mon May 18, 2015 10:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby leibniz » Mon May 18, 2015 10:13 pm #89192

Being able to toggle Door lights serves no purpose beyond fucking over people (mostly antags). Maybe make it exclusive to antag AIs.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Amelius » Mon May 18, 2015 10:36 pm #89199

Oldman Robustin wrote:
DemonFiren wrote:I say, electric storms should have a chance to blow cameras instead of lights only.


A simple straightforward change that helps limit the AI's omniscience, I like it.

@Amelius: You goddamn know that bit about lings isn't true. As an AI/Ling/Executioner a majority of incinerations/gibbings are based solely on unsubstantiated claims of the crew. If sec is dragging someone to the gibber and claims he's a ling because he kept getting up out of crit, I would allow them inside even though there's a fair chance they could be full of healing meds/implants. It's not worth the massive fight that ensues when sec declares the AI is protecting lings and everyone shits on you for the rest of the round/OOC after the round for not believing that someone was a ling. It happens practically every ling round and I've never seen admins intervene.


I suppose, but AIs really, really aren't supposed to incinerate without visual or forensic evidence, either from a borg or the AI itself. I know I personally don't, even if I get shat on later for it.

Really, that's just an example of where the AI policy should be changed, since that is effectively disregarding your laws to validhunt on Asimov, which, said restrictions that Asimov places are meant to balance their power in the first place.

Still, you have yet to disregard the bulk of the text, that is that lings have a plethoria of escape options from the AI and crew, even when bolted in with no tools or even equipment (like that happens unless you're hilarious unrobust). It's balanced in that sense.

leibniz wrote:Being able to toggle Door lights serves no purpose beyond fucking over people (mostly antags). Maybe make it exclusive to antag AIs.


> BOLT LIGHTS AREN'T ON, AI MALF/TRAITOR.

I can see it now. Just no. It's another nerf to subversion as well.

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