AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

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Gun Hog
 
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Gun Hog » Mon May 18, 2015 11:05 pm #89211

Nuke ops? Nothing. The Syndiborg killed you already. If you DID somehow not get killed, bolt them before they emag the door. Of course, you are nothing but a harmyeller if they have their own borg.
Blob? Set EAO on the blob area, work with Sec to pass out guns like candy, manage your borgs, because you cannot do anything yourself, but watch and harmyell.
Ling? Kill them yourself if you have first-person proof. Else, treat them like a human antag.
Gang? Try to kill yourself, realize it violates Law 3, and cry at your futile attempts to contain people with tools and weapons to break out quickly. Pray Sec is robust.
Rev? Beg the heads to go someplace safe, then cry. You are just a harmyeller here.
Traitor? One of the few times you are actually useful. Bolt them down and call for Sec. Cry when Sec beats them to death.
Shadowling? Bolt down maint, cry when you let Sec in only to die.
Ayyyliens? Good luck finding the duplicate. Door smash the Agent if you actually DO find him.
Xenoes? ZAP DEM DOAHS (be careful not to let a human near!) Set your own turrets to lethal when they come for you.
Malf? Wait for a badmin to make you Malf, too!
Wizard? Struggle to keep up with him as he teleports EVERYWHERE. Wait for him to come to your chamber and EI NATH! you.
Cult? Call the shuttle. Harmyell. Set turrets to lethal and hope the inevitable wraith that comes is unrobust.

TL;DR: Call Sec, you cannot do anything to stop them alone.



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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scott » Mon May 18, 2015 11:37 pm #89218

Removing camera jump links and adding cooldowns to AI actions (so it doesn't immediately bolt every single door) are good nerfs. These wouldn't apply to a Malf AI as they need all the help.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Cheimon » Mon May 18, 2015 11:52 pm #89222

Some people have been saying that simply removing AI and secborg is the key solution. This is all very well, and I agree that removing the roundstart AI would be interesting to at least trial, but it ignores the fact that asimov is a lawset that demands physical interaction with the crew, and physically attempting to stop the crew from harming each other. Removing the one cyborg (apart from default) which can stun a crewman and removing the AI is going to force all other cyborgs into increasingly physical contact themselves. They're not designed for this and they're no good at it but engineering, medical, janitor and service borgs are all going to feel forced to get involved in harmful confrontations when previously they could allow security borgs to take the brunt.

That's the key to all this. It's that when I play AI, I am obliged to attempt to stop human harm, as much as possible. That translates into quite a lot of what is essentially validhunting, not of thieves and the like but of anyone who lays a finger on a human member of the crew, especially if they're not human themselves. It's in the first law: inaction will not do. And AI would have a lot of downtime if you didn't pay attention to crew murderers.

If you want an AI that doesn't hunt antags so much or with such zeal, you need to think about not having the standard asimov lawset. Plainly and simply it encourages the sort of security-aiding antag-hunting behaviour so much of this thread is (perhaps reasonably) upset about. If you gave the AI a lawset that was less focused on discouraging crew on crew harm it would be less interested in it.

Actually, if you did decide to get rid of AI as a job, the subroutine concept might be a fun way to have a gimped AI with some of its benefits but fewer of its flaws. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3640&view=unread&sid=dbc578cea214c2eca5cc8d38af9da41e#unread

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Tue May 19, 2015 12:00 am #89223

If this goes through it will be the same sniveling reason the solo antag nerfs went though. Most people in a given round are not an antag at least to begin with (note converting antags left hella strong for the same reason) so most people see it as statistically in their interest to have traitors nerfed or expunged from security. They aren't antags most of time so it is mostly in their benefit to have a weaker antag.

Standard AI count for a round it one. Even more beep boop remove for my own benefit meta. Sorry the AI isn't just a blue guy that runs up and punches you.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby leibniz » Tue May 19, 2015 12:24 am #89225

Amelius wrote:
leibniz wrote:Being able to toggle Door lights serves no purpose beyond fucking over people (mostly antags). Maybe make it exclusive to antag AIs.


> BOLT LIGHTS AREN'T ON, AI MALF/TRAITOR.

I can see it now. Just no. It's another nerf to subversion as well.


I dont think it's much different from encountering a shocked airlock or emagged apc.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Shad0vvs » Tue May 19, 2015 12:40 am #89227

I propose a modification of Oldman's PDA unbolter thingy, except for bolting, to remove ai control for a minute or two. (This should allow you to do the deed and get out, as long as you set it up on the door beforehand, and isnt as obvious as an emag, maybe just a screwdriver then use the item, no gloves needed)

Because with your unbolter idea, you need power, and the ai will cut the apc knowing this is an item. In removing ai control case, you just need a crowbar even if the ai cuts power, which is everywhere.

Make it cost like 1tc with a cooldown or maybe a limit use like implants or something.

Or hell just make it break the doors main power and backup power for a minute or two, then it can't be fucked with. Then it won't be only an anti ai weapon, and can be used as a ghetto emag.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Loonikus » Tue May 19, 2015 12:42 am #89228

As time goes on, I am beginning to see the merits of just removing roundstart AIs. If the station wants an AI, they have to build one themselves.

Edit: For further clarification, I always thought people who seriously wanted the AI outright removed were just suffering from a massive case of "I DED NERF HE." But when I sit down and actually think about it, how much of an antagonists job revolves around avoiding the AI? Despite having laws against causing people harm, AIs are without a doubt the biggest threat against any antagonist. In a game about trickery and being subtle, they can practically see and hear everything. Not only that, but thanks to lel possible harm they have an obligation to use that massive advantage against people.

Maybe its high time AIs got the boot after all.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Tue May 19, 2015 1:10 am #89232

Seriously stop suggesting workarounds for the AI and instead address the AI which is causing the problems

Seriously just axe roundstart AI and remove the board from the RD's office so we can't build one at roundstart. Overwatch god-machine can be a late-game thing and it will be FINE.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Antimattercarp » Tue May 19, 2015 1:33 am #89235

Gonna have to add a few more borg slots if we remove roundstart AI

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby onleavedontatme » Tue May 19, 2015 1:34 am #89236

Station AIs are such a ridiculously huge part of the round that I wouldn't mind seeing them go, but at the same time we need to consider what critical functions they provide and and provide alternatives rather than just ripping the guts out of the game, discovering things dont work well, and reverting back to having the immortal god machine.

-AI facilitates access. Maybe let department heads control doors from their PDA? Bolt them, open them, emergency access, etc
-AI locates people in distress. Imagine how bad the GLORF on hit will be if there are no cameras and no way to shout for help. Maybe remove restrictions on shouting while being hit
-AI locates badguys and coordinates the crew against them. This sucks for traitors but is often necessary when locating fast moving badguys like wizard/xenos or against shit that requires organization like blob or fighting ops. Dunno what the alternative would be. Maybe the captain can get a throne to be the rts commander from, as long as he was actually vulnerable in it Instead of hidden in a fort or a surveillance officer (not protected from traitor role) with a sec console that can free look?
-borgs are a great way to keep badguys in the round, open doors, be strong enough to counter murderboners. I think borgs would be fine to keep if they dont have the magic eye.


And more but I hate typing on my phone.

Tl;dr please carefully consider this instead of ripping out what is unfortunately the heart of every round

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby lumipharon » Tue May 19, 2015 1:34 am #89237

Removing round start AI would be pretty neat, but that would by extension remove malf and traitor AI's.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby onleavedontatme » Tue May 19, 2015 1:38 am #89239

lumipharon wrote:Removing round start AI would be pretty neat, but that would by extension remove malf and traitor AI's.


You say that like it's a bad thing. Malf (especially with lockdown) is a horrible mode that rewards people who meta or gather every important piece of gear and kills off anyone who doesn't with no chance of them fighting back

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Tue May 19, 2015 1:39 am #89240

Kor wrote: Maybe the captain can get a throne to be the rts commander from, as long as he was actually vulnerable in it Instead of hidden in a fort or a surveillance officer (not protected from traitor role) with a sec console that can free look?


Cyborgs are fine it's just when attached to the AI eye they become autism free win

Captain's Throne when?

And yeah malf is utter trash and that is universally agreed upon. Fuck lockdown, fuck malf.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby John_Oxford » Tue May 19, 2015 2:03 am #89242

Ignoring all other above comments.

"git gud yew scrub tators, i cun 1v1 a ai annnnnnaayyy dayyy mayte, git fakkin gud"

On a serious note, No, don't nerf the AI, don't remove the AI, don't fucking touch the AI.

Buff Traitors

This: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3634

Allow ALL antags to order a form of AI cloaking.

Traitor: Costs 2 TC: Reusable implant that makes them invisible to the AI for 2 minutes, has a 1 minute cool down

Changeling: Costs 75 Chemicals, Emits a cloud of blue smoke, then makes the ling invisible to the AI for 5 minutes, cooldown of 10 minutes

Nuke Ops: Costs 6 TC: Resembles changeling powers, Implant, apon usage, emits a cloud of blue smoke, and leaves some green goo on the ground, Invisible to the AI for 10 minutes, One time usage.
a. ( This would enhance the chance of nuke ops attempting to make a plan, to get in and out with in 10 minutes, then the plan inevitably failing, the nuke ops dying, and the round ending)

Wizard: Costs One Spell Point, Titled "Electromagnetic Tranquility": Makes the wizard invisible to the AI for 3 minutes, emits a SHITSTORM of sparks, and a 3x3 square of green goop.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Reimoo » Tue May 19, 2015 2:05 am #89243

More blindspots and easier camera sabotage is quick and easy remedy, I think.

Can we try that first, maybe? Removing the AI would cause a backlash three times as worse than when movespeed was nerfed.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scones » Tue May 19, 2015 2:08 am #89246

Sweet fuck how many times do I need to repeat myself

STOP TRYING TO BUFF TRAITORS, ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM. TRAITORS HAVE MANY ISSUES BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE AI.

ADDRESS. THE. ROOT. PROBLEM.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby onleavedontatme » Tue May 19, 2015 2:13 am #89248

John_Oxford wrote:Allow ALL antags to order a form of AI cloaking.
/quote]

You didnt even manage to list all the antags man.

Cult, gang, rev all have members which rely on improvised weapons. It also makes sense to address the structural problems in the game rather than throw out a handful of bandaids that will feed a rigid meta.

Reimoo wrote:movespeed


One of the holy trinity of AI buffs was making humans as slow as borgs (and easy to follow with the eye/easy to head off and bolt things)

Other two big ones are the freelook and door hotkeys. I doubt anyone wants to revert those though.

I'd rather not axe the role entirely straight away either

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby LNGLY » Tue May 19, 2015 2:15 am #89250

Removing AI is an awful kneejerk idea that makes no sense when there are so many other, better options.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue May 19, 2015 2:34 am #89253

I feel like a quick and easy nerf to the AI that could help cut down on a lot of the issues presented without being too harsh would just be removing any kind of automatic tracking. Can't jump to people through chat, can't view a list of the crew and pick out who to track, all that. You get attacked and call for help? Better state your location or else your magical AI friend isn't going to save you.

I'd also like to see AIs losing the ability to view suit sensors if possible, and removing the AI's notifications whenever an EMP happens anywhere on the station. ("EMP DETECTED TRAITOROUS ACTIVITY IN [EMP LOCATION] SECURITY PLEASE NON-HARMFULLY DETAIN TRAITORS BEEP BOOP METAGAMING" "SUIT SENSORS SHOW SOMEONE IS TAKING RAPID OXYGEN DAMAGE IN THE MEDBAY BEEP BOOP CHANGELING IN MEDBAY SECURITY PLEASE RESPOND BEEP BOOP METAGAMING")
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Summoner » Tue May 19, 2015 3:57 am #89269

Alright I'm going to make my little feedback here, I'm a high-playing AI player. I've played for a very long time as pretty much only AI and Borg.

I would actually say that the AI is pretty much weak, sure he can cause some disturbance with antags but without a cyborg/security it really can't do anything. Sure it can bolt doors and call for security, but that's honestly all it can do. With Security not helping or borgs dead, the best it's going to do is mess with the humans breaking law 1 by calling the human names and trying to find help from anyone who could assist in the situation, which most likely the people wouldn't really help if it's Rev or Gang. Gun Hog up in this thread actually put each round type summed up pretty well.

The real issue that Scones seems to be having a issue with is some areas shouldn't have cameras and the AI's default asimov laws, the AI's laws are pretty set up to allow the same behavior over and over. It should be made more into a neutral role in it's laws and rules, it should still open doors and such and reports things people want it to report but it doesn't care if humans die or a revolution happens or anything. It should just be the station's babysitter to make sure the station is functioning and it remains functioning till the very end. If it's got that kind of rules and laws set up, it would be more like a 'scifi AI' where it exists to just make sure the station is safe.

I honestly think a lot of these ideas and such is silly, I think removing major AI components or the AI itself is just lazy way to fix the issues that has come up.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Tue May 19, 2015 5:57 am #89280

This thread has taken a turn for the absolutely stupid. Removing the AI is fucking drastic, totally scraps an iconic part of the game, will horribly screw with balance just about everywhere, is not something you can do halfway ("SHIT GUYS THIS STATION STARTED WITH AN AI, MUST BE MALF, LYNCH HE"), and is generally a nuclear option based on the complaints of a few people. Have you played a round with no roundstart AI? Shit fucking sucks.

As for AI policy, maybe (I know) look at what Bay does? http://wiki.baystation12.net/index.php/AI
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Tue May 19, 2015 6:05 am #89283

Please don't make me raise the 'constructive!' finger here.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue May 19, 2015 7:05 am #89289

Quick and easy suggestion to gimp the AI without being totally retarded?

Make all cameras start with the focus wire cut, limiting their view-range to 3 tiles instead of 7.

Bam blind spots for hiding everywhere, and people can just fix the cams if the AI can't see the door they want opened.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Timbrewolf » Tue May 19, 2015 7:31 am #89292

Kor wrote:-AI locates badguys and coordinates the crew against them. This sucks for traitors but is often necessary when locating fast moving badguys like wizard/xenos or against shit that requires organization like blob or fighting ops. Dunno what the alternative would be. Maybe the captain can get a throne to be the rts commander from, as long as he was actually vulnerable in it Instead of hidden in a fort or a surveillance officer (not protected from traitor role) with a sec console that can free look?


A sec officer can do this. Give their console the ability to track people the same way the AI could. Be a fat fuck mallcop sec officer who flubs around the arrivals checkpoint emptying the vending machines and wishing some day you might be so cool as to cruise down the hallway on a pristine secway. They already have camera consoles all over the place but nobody ever uses them because the AI does it so much more efficiently than you ever could anyway.

-borgs are a great way to keep badguys in the round, open doors, be strong enough to counter murderboners. I think borgs would be fine to keep if they dont have the magic eye.


If you're tatering it up to the point where the crew is considering borging you an appropriate sentence odds are there is probably some damage somewhere that you could go engiborg and fix. Or at least some mess a janitor borg can clean up.

Borgs should be trying to prevent harm and such, sure. But removing sec borgs doesn't make that job more difficult for them unless you're the kind of borg player who does nothing but run laps around the station looking for harm to "prevent". They can still passively do that with their flashes and valiantly throwing themselves in harm's way. Yes borgs will have a harder time dunking antags if you remove sec borgs...but that's good. I've said this a million times already in similar conversations but it's way too easy for a competent AI and two sec borgs to effectively replace all of security in a round.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Scott » Tue May 19, 2015 8:35 am #89297

Yeah no. If I am not a secborg I am not trying to save anyone if it involves combat.

Also removing the AI is pretty stupid. Buffing the traitors or nerfing the AI or creating more ways to blind the AI is better.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue May 19, 2015 9:11 am #89302

Scones wrote:Sweet fuck how many times do I need to repeat myself

STOP TRYING TO BUFF TRAITORS, ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM. TRAITORS HAVE MANY ISSUES BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE AI.

ADDRESS. THE. ROOT. PROBLEM.


The root problem of "The AI shits on traitors" isn't "The AI needs to be removed" though.

It's partially an AI balance problem, partially an AI feature problem, partially a Weak Traitor problem, and partially a player problem.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Arete » Tue May 19, 2015 9:34 am #89307

If the AI is removed entirely, I foresee a very sharp increase in the number of murderboners. AI nerfs should focus on making stealthy play more feasible without enabling boring one-sided massacres to happen without sec being able to counter them.

Kor wrote:You say that like it's a bad thing. Malf (especially with lockdown) is a horrible mode that rewards people who meta or gather every important piece of gear and kills off anyone who doesn't with no chance of them fighting back


Can't that be said about any antag the whole crew fights against together? Anything powerful enough to fight the whole crew at once is going to require cooperation and smart distribution of gear.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Tokiko2 » Tue May 19, 2015 10:52 am #89316

I think that silicons should not be able to bolt doors. Atleast not all doors and certainly not instantly with a single click. It stops so many antags dead in their tracks.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Reimoo » Tue May 19, 2015 2:53 pm #89335

Arete wrote:AI nerfs should focus on making stealthy play more feasible without enabling boring one-sided massacres to happen without sec being able to counter them.


Traitor buffs, security buffs, hard AI nerfs, nothing gets removed?

Sounds good yes?

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Summoner » Tue May 19, 2015 5:33 pm #89356

Reimoo wrote:Traitor buffs, security buffs, hard AI nerfs, nothing gets removed?

Sounds good yes?


Hard AI nerfs? Nah, rather pretty soft nerfs. I think up and above with the idea that some cameras start with camera focus wire cut could help a bit. The AI doesn't really need to be nerfed hard to fix the issue.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Tue May 19, 2015 7:30 pm #89369

One-digit code suggestion:

var/max_range = 7
to
var/max_range = 5

BAM
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby WJohnston » Tue May 19, 2015 8:27 pm #89385

I agree the new camera wires (5 of them!) with an alarm wire is super unfun. It's a giant buff that makes cameras entirely too complicated (and those desperately need to be redone) and too powerful.

Making it take a couple of seconds with some wirecutters with no alarm and leaving it at that would be the best option, I think. At least it'd be a step in the right direction.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Tue May 19, 2015 9:25 pm #89398

It'd also encourage people to upgrade the cameras; there are a lot of possible and easy upgrades that never happen because no one thinks to do it.

That and the random event should help mitigate this, I think.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby oranges » Tue May 19, 2015 9:33 pm #89404

remove ability to use door, leave it as a malf ability

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Bombadil » Tue May 19, 2015 11:24 pm #89427

Also emp's setting off camera alarms and fire alarms is so bullshit. AI instantly zooms to the area and tries to figure out what just happened with its multitudes of cameras.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed May 20, 2015 5:38 am #89496

Scones wrote:Sweet fuck how many times do I need to repeat myself

STOP TRYING TO BUFF TRAITORS, ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM. TRAITORS HAVE MANY ISSUES BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE AI.

ADDRESS. THE. ROOT. PROBLEM.


The solutions proposed for the root are extremely difficult to balance across the bajillion gametypes.

Traitor/Ling suffer the most under the AI's watch, so there is merit to giving them unique options for dealing with the fun-killer.

Still, I definitely would support an experimental period of no AI. It would bring back a lot of feelings that our current SS13 is missing. Honestly I would be willing to play security more because I would actually have a purpose besides playing janitor for the AI.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby TheWiznard » Wed May 20, 2015 10:02 am #89531

Scones wrote:Seriously stop suggesting workarounds for the AI and instead address the AI which is causing the problems

Seriously just axe roundstart AI and remove the board from the RD's office so we can't build one at roundstart. Overwatch god-machine can be a late-game thing and it will be FINE.

Scones wrote:Sweet fuck how many times do I need to repeat myself

STOP TRYING TO BUFF TRAITORS, ADDRESS THE ROOT PROBLEM. TRAITORS HAVE MANY ISSUES BUT THIS IS NOT ABOUT THAT, THIS IS ABOUT THE AI.

ADDRESS. THE. ROOT. PROBLEM.



"guys here I made a thread to seriously talk about ais"
"guys why are you making suggestions about keeping it?"
"guys seriously stop giving constructive feedback and just agree that removing it is the best idea"

that said I think that removing the roundstart AI and not removing them entirely is a really good idea. I play AI/borg almost exclusively on basil when I'm online. removing bolt shortcuts isn't going to stop me from bolting someone in three seconds, you could easily do that before the shortcuts. As others have said and even though it would be a huge mapping job; reduced camera coverage seems not only like a good solution but also a way to upon up more ways for people to do things.
I wouldn't mind losing click to follow because besides fixing all of your problems with AI it would also clear up my screen instead of having a bunch of annoying (F)'s in my chat.

What if along with some cameras starting disabled at the start of the round, some cameras also start "faulty"; they work for a while but then fuzz out to static like a drone vision? Actually just increase the chance of cameras at roundstart being disabled, as it is now I've rarely ever seen more than four cameras disabled and they are always in stupid places you don't care about, like the vault or the courtroom.

Maybe this is a dumb idea too but, give the AI some sort of power charge that drains like a borg. While the AI is not at 'core view mode' it slowly/quickly drains power as it is using cameras to look around the station. To recharge you have use the 'AI core button' and not move your camera for like say 10 seconds before you begin charging, then you just start charging power like you would in a borg recharger. Maybe it could drain faster when you're opening/bolting/shocking a door?
"wiznard you dingle, this just makes the ai a borg, what's the point?"
well I'm glad you asked wiznard because I don't have a point. I'm just throwing out an idea. I don't think of this as a point, I think of it as a nerf so people who like AI can still play it and people who have an obvious problem with AI's can be happy.
go to bed bro, she's not thinking about you.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Miauw » Wed May 20, 2015 11:16 am #89537

imo, removing AI tracking and forcing the AI to manually track people would go a long way.

also make EMPs not trigger camera alarms.

now both traitors and lings have an effective way to deal with the AI, but it's not *essential*.

AI and borgs are one of the things I find most fun about SS13, the concept of laws is just pretty fun. The problem is mainly how omniscient the AI can be and how powerful borgs are.
(ALSO REMOVING AI TRACKING WOULD ALLOW ME TO REMOVE SOME SHITTY CODE FROM SAY BUT THATS JUST ME)

leibniz wrote:
Amelius wrote:
leibniz wrote:Being able to toggle Door lights serves no purpose beyond fucking over people (mostly antags). Maybe make it exclusive to antag AIs.


> BOLT LIGHTS AREN'T ON, AI MALF/TRAITOR.

I can see it now. Just no. It's another nerf to subversion as well.


I dont think it's much different from encountering a shocked airlock or emagged apc.

"these are shitty things that are already in the game, therefore we should be allowed to add more shitty things"

and shocked doors are not exclusively caused by malf AI, EMPs, hacking and rouge borgs will also cause it.

Adding some camera deadzones to the station is also a neat idea, but I fear people will just metagame and never go there, unless you put it somewhere important.
<wb> For one, the spaghetti is killing me. It's everywhere in food code, and makes it harder to clean those up.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed May 20, 2015 12:16 pm #89541

New Uplink Item!: Carbon-Steel Cutters

These modified wirecutters (with a sick new paintjob) can disable cameras in a single cut, instantly destroy pesky security and engineering tape, cut through a doors bolts (In three seconds flat!) and with new rubber grips, your risk of shock has been entirely circumvented! Now for the low low price of 3 telecrystals!

Job done AI fixed can we move on now.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby oranges » Wed May 20, 2015 12:24 pm #89542

so it's like a more featurefilled emag?

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Wed May 20, 2015 12:27 pm #89543

Pretty sure you can just walk through tape.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby leibniz » Wed May 20, 2015 12:28 pm #89544

Miauw wrote:
leibniz wrote:
Amelius wrote:
leibniz wrote:Being able to toggle Door lights serves no purpose beyond fucking over people (mostly antags). Maybe make it exclusive to antag AIs.


> BOLT LIGHTS AREN'T ON, AI MALF/TRAITOR.

I can see it now. Just no. It's another nerf to subversion as well.


I dont think it's much different from encountering a shocked airlock or emagged apc.

"these are shitty things that are already in the game, therefore we should be allowed to add more shitty things"

and shocked doors are not exclusively caused by malf AI, EMPs, hacking and rouge borgs will also cause it.


That was my point, the same things can toggle bolt lights, not just the AI. So it wouldn't be a direct confirmation like hostile runtimes or whatever.
The shitty thing is that toggling lights was added in the first place.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Arete » Wed May 20, 2015 1:07 pm #89546

Stickymayhem wrote:New Uplink Item!: Carbon-Steel Cutters

These modified wirecutters (with a sick new paintjob) can disable cameras in a single cut, instantly destroy pesky security and engineering tape, cut through a doors bolts (In three seconds flat!) and with new rubber grips, your risk of shock has been entirely circumvented! Now for the low low price of 3 telecrystals!

Job done AI fixed can we move on now.


I might buy this occasionally, yeah.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Cheimon » Wed May 20, 2015 1:31 pm #89547

Making armblade sharp enough to cut through door bolts might also work well.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Wed May 20, 2015 1:49 pm #89551

Stickymayhem wrote:New Uplink Item!: Carbon-Steel Cutters

These modified wirecutters (with a sick new paintjob) can disable cameras in a single cut, instantly destroy pesky security and engineering tape, cut through a doors bolts (In three seconds flat!) and with new rubber grips, your risk of shock has been entirely circumvented! Now for the low low price of 3 telecrystals!

Job done AI fixed can we move on now.


Up the price of the toolbox, stick 'em in there.
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Spoiler:
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Stickymayhem » Wed May 20, 2015 1:54 pm #89553

Nice idea but a full set of tools is needed for a 1TC cost perma escape/emergency solution

A 5TC set of tools that comes with the AI multitool and carbon steel cutters would be pretty cool though.
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby DemonFiren » Wed May 20, 2015 1:56 pm #89554

Syndicate Deluxe Subscription toolbox, completely with insu-gloves, welding goggles and extra robustness. (And those 2 extra slots of storage space?)
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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Incomptinence » Wed May 20, 2015 2:01 pm #89556

Gating rampant lasting (emp kinda fills a lot of roles as is but not permanent cam fuck) camera disabling would actually be a pretty elegant solution to have it back and get around powerful group antags / griefers abusing the same. Good idea for once sticky oh and good supplementary thought Cheimon. Actually camera bug should have filled much the same role but it was a bit too weak/dependent on random junk.

That actually comprises a lot of the flaws in changeling design, sure they can fumble with tools and do as well as an assistant BUT they can only do as well as one when a revolution could have up to ten or so, a traitor does much better and then a nuke team can have a team of 3-5 syndies including borgs working together at traitor level shit busting.

It is pretty odd that cult having a parapen derivative (fo da konvertz) actually can make it stealthier and supposedly sneaky solo antags.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby Erbbu » Wed May 20, 2015 7:25 pm #89613

I agree with all the people suggesting removing the AI. Rounds tend to get more interesting when for whatever reason there is no AI, it's why I often try to destroy them instead of subverting on the rare chance I get traitor. Remove the AI satellite, remove the round start AI, remove the RD's AI core board. Keep AI cores as something you can build if you do research and loot the vault/get a mining delivery. Lets at least have a trial period for having no round start AI.

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Re: AI Feedback: Constructive Edition

Postby bandit » Wed May 20, 2015 9:55 pm #89643

Erbbu wrote:I agree with all the people suggesting removing the AI. Rounds tend to get more interesting when for whatever reason there is no AI, it's why I often try to destroy them instead of subverting on the rare chance I get traitor. Remove the AI satellite, remove the round start AI, remove the RD's AI core board. Keep AI cores as something you can build if you do research and loot the vault/get a mining delivery. Lets at least have a trial period for having no round start AI.


Two problems with this:

- "Keep ______ as something you can build" results in it never being built. See, for instance, telescience.

- Similarly, trial periods are never trials. They are always permanent.
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