[Poll] xray gun nerf

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:32 pm #96024

So xray gun is OP and needs to be nerfed. I made a PR (https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9978) to basically reduce the range of the xray beam depending on what obstacles it passes through. Currently, it allows you to pass through only up to 5 blob tiles (or mobs) or 2 walls/airlocks. It is also unable to penetrate reinforced walls. Since the values are easily tweakable I'm asking you what you'd prefer:

- How many reinforced walls should the beam be able to go through before dissipating?
- How many normal walls should the beam be able to go through before dissipating?
- How many blob tiles (or mob) should the beam be able to go through before dissipating?

See https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/6928 and https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/issues/9923 to see why it needs to be nerfed.

If you choose "none of the above", please make a post explaining your position.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Jun 15, 2015 8:55 pm

I don't think the xraygun should be nerfed.

It's a high research requirement for a reason and the only real times it gets out of hand is when people have thermals or xray too.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:01 pm #96036

The nerf is needed because the xray gun is currently a hard counter against malf AI and blob. If the crew ever get their hands on xray guns, you're doomed no matter what.

TechnoAlchemist · Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:04 pm

Malf AIs have abilities with the sole purpose of shutting down machines that could be problematic to them.

Blobs I can see your argument but I think that this sort of stuff is needed so that blob rounds actually end instead of becoming a stalemate.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:06 pm #96038

Woah maybe it's a hard counter to blob and malf because it's designed to be a hard counter against blob and malf

It stops the inevitable blob stalemates that occur in the last couple hundred tiles, and honestly any malf that doesn't shut down science deserves to die. It's as basic as removing the Borg Boom console. Except it doesn't even require points there is a built in "YOU'VE JUST BEEN MALFED" research deletion button.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:33 pm #96047

None of the above, just increase the mineral cost or change it to work off diamonds instead of/in addition to uranium. X-ray guns should be fucking expensive and thus rare, but attainable if mining works hard enough.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:37 pm #96050

Yes make them require diamond. That's all that's needed.

Let's not cut the top 10% of powerful things in the game every month.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 9:52 pm #96059

Being able to sit in space with a bag of xray guns and shit on the station is neither fun nor difficult to do.
Science is already OP enough as it is, with constant buffs to R&D.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:45 pm #96077

Xray gun does NOT need a nerf. It exists almost solely to fuck up blob, and as such, needs to be able to do its job.

Blob is OP to the point that nothing short of popping in the bar or something similarly retarded gets blob killed. It is almost impossible to win as crew without Xrays.

The way to look at this is not: "Once crew gets xray guns, they can win vs blob, oh noes!" Because right now that is about the ONLY way to win vs blob. I have seen a blob out-produce a trio of emitters aimed from space at its core and go on to win, and with the number of blob buffs over the past year or so, it is at the point that normal crew can't even begin to MATTER vs the blob. All they can hope to do is not become a zombie for the blob army and hope that science has its shit togeather to scrape out the win, because nothing that they do is going to meaningfully contribute.

Nerfing xray lasers is not the solution here. The solution is to scale down blob so that science/mining isn't the only crew that matters vs blob. Because right now? That's where it is at.

It used to be that normal crew could at least contain the blob with the welder brigade, and sec with lasers could make a decent assualt with hopes of a kill. With blob zombies, chem blob spores, blobbernauts (gone AFAIK, thank god), and insane resource generation, any blob player who isn't pants on head retarded is pretty much guaranteed to win.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jun 15, 2015 10:57 pm

Shamelessly advertising my xray alternative again

http://www.singulo.io/tg/src/1433809799414.webm

It's probably not as powerful but at least it's different (and I hope entertaining in its own way) instead of a straight nerf

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:02 pm #96084

If you're specifically talking about blobs, then I'll say this.

If you can make xray lasers, you can by extension make clusterbang launchers.

Clusterbangs assblast blobs. They're so powerful against blobs it's hilarious. 2-3 clusterbangs will kill EVERY blob in the area, including blob walls and even the core itself.
The mech with a clusterbang can wipe out a blob, as long as the blob doesn't have shitloads of points to rush the mech (not easy when clusterbangs are getting spammed).

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:04 pm #96085

iyaerP wrote:Blob is OP to the point that nothing short of popping in the bar or something similarly retarded gets blob killed. It is almost impossible to win as crew without Xrays.

Blobs win about 2/3 of the time when the round lasts 30 minutes or less. Lategame research is clearly a major factor, but it's not even close to necessary.

A buff to lategame blobs (which this amounts to) should probably be accompanied by either a nerf to earlygame blobs or maybe some change to make it more likely that blob rounds will last to the lategame in the first place.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:09 pm #96090

Only took one round of Steve mic blasting the shuttle for 3 minutes with em for me to want it needed
I'm not saying I'm not guilty of using xray implant and cray gun to hunt xenos or murderboning traitors but that's not the point

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

lumipharon wrote:Being able to sit in space with a bag of xray guns and shit on the station is neither fun nor difficult to do.
Science is already OP enough as it is, with constant buffs to R&D.

If you got the materials and firing pins and space suits and all that prep then yes you get to shit on the station.

Just like mr toxin man can get forty kills on the shuttle.

Or acid man can melt everyone.

Or robotics man can mech stomp everyone.

If the game has gone on that long then someone shitting on the station with death lasers is a fucking blessing.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:11 pm #96094

but making xrays and getting a pin/suit will take a traitor 10 minutes, from round start.

Lots of things can bone the shuttle, but atleast it involves the bomber placing bombs (or suicide bombing).
Acid is broken due to how foam works, but is indeed awful.
Robotics making a mech means getting R&D done (which they can admittedly do themselves), getting minerals, and then walking around and shitting on people, but atleast people can fight back. Unless they can get rid of the ion rifle (and probably ion carbines from R&D), mechs get dunked.

Xrays from space is literally hiding outside of the station, with a jetpack and xray guns, with no practical or reasonable way to stop them, spamming mindlessly into the station.
Atleast with monkey emp in the vents, it can be countered, although slowly.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

lumipharon wrote:but making xrays and getting a pin/suit will take a traitor 10 minutes, from round start.

That's monstrously inaccurate.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:19 pm #96102

I will time myself if you want. R&D is so brokenly easy now, especially with a crusher.

1 sheet of metal = 177 micromanipulators.
1 manipulator = (some extremely high chance) 4 sheets of random material.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:25 pm

lumipharon wrote:I will time myself if you want. R&D is so brokenly easy now, especially with a crusher.

1 sheet of metal = 177 micromanipulators.
1 manipulator = (some extremely high chance) 4 sheets of random material.

Do you even need mining now?

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:30 pm #96109

Yes and no.
Miners are muh easier minerals (an upgraded ore machine gives you FOUR TIMES THE MINERALS).
So one load from a miner is nice neat stacks, and all you'll ever need.

Of course crushers don't rely on other players. On the other hand, due to REASONS, crushers don't make uranium (which is relevent for this topic).

ThatSlyFox · Post by **ThatSlyFox** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:45 pm #96113

Lumipharon has a point, science (and mining) are extremely easy and take no more than 10 minutes to get x rays. Someone explain to me why the crusher needed to be OP now and why hasn't it been nerfed back to how it used to be?

We need to fix the problem at its source which is R&D and stop adding bullshit like the crusher.

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Mon Jun 15, 2015 11:54 pm #96119

ThatSlyFox wrote:Lumipharon has a point, science (and mining) are extremely easy and take no more than 10 minutes to get x rays. Someone explain to me why the crusher needed to be OP now and why hasn't it been nerfed back to how it used to be?

We need to fix the problem at its source which is R&D and stop adding bullshit like the crusher.

It still flatout does nto give uranium the main component for xray lasers

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:03 am #96120

You need one uranium ore (not sheet) to max research and make an xray lasergun.
Science could build a teleporter, teleport to the mining station (it has a beacon) and mine it themselves if they had to.

But yeah, R&D has had the biggest fucking powercreep over the last year. Having everything constructable seemed like a great idea (and for station building events, very useful). In practice though, it just means science can do everything everyone else can, only better since they have omega Xtreme upgrades, while shitting thermal/xray implants/guns/portal guns/nvg's/mechs/singularities/bikehorns out the ass because of effectively infinite minerals from MULTIPLE sources.

Incomptinence · Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:08 am

Everything being built isn't the issue. Sounds like the crusher is plain broken and no one notices because it was previously in disposals just being used by desperate drones.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 3:29 am #96146

This poll is hugely flawed due to not having a 'do not nerf' option. Instead, we're all stuck going to the 'none of the above' option, which constitutes far more than just that.

As a result, I get the feeling that regardless of what the community thinks, it'll be pushed through. Just another shit change in a series of shit changes, obviously. Xrays have been the same literally forever, and no one had a problem with them in the past. It requires skill to line them up, and even if you're spamming from outside the station, you do indeed have to reload them, strangely enough.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:10 am #96153

Amelius wrote:This poll is hugely flawed due to not having a 'do not nerf' option. Instead, we're all stuck going to the 'none of the above' option, which constitutes far more than just that.

As a result, I get the feeling that regardless of what the community thinks, it'll be pushed through. Just another shit change in a series of shit changes, obviously. Xrays have been the same literally forever, and no one had a problem with them in the past. It requires skill to line them up, and even if you're spamming from outside the station, you do indeed have to reload them, strangely enough.

This. Xrays have literally never been a problem in the YEARS that we've had them up till the crusher makes science easy and free. The problem isn't RnD. The problem is the crusher. It should only be putting out what materials were in the source things being crushed.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 5:59 am #96171

You guys know that xrays for most of their existance DID NOT shot through walls, right? They would go through other objects, but walls/r-walls blocked them. At the time I said that was dumb, but seeing them get abused now - yeah, naw.

It's only a comparatively new change. (less then a year conservatively)

Not-Dorsidarf · Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:06 am

Incomptinence wrote:Everything being built isn't the issue. Sounds like the crusher is plain broken and no one notices because it was previously in disposals just being used by desperate drones.

Goofball buffed the crusher massively a few days ago, which is the problem

Incomptinence · Tue Jun 16, 2015 8:47 am

Well that is a problem I agree why do you let people have infinite non uranium metals goof?

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:13 pm #96238

Please do not go nerfing Xray guns and all of Science. The massive increase in Science effectiveness and output is directly due to two things: Ore Redemption Machine upgrades which gives 4x minerals at max upgrades, and the crusher, which poops every material except uranium. That is the cause, and the solution is to simply remove those two things (keep the refine speed and more points though). I generally hate nerfs, as they tend to be done in a way that fixes nothing and degrades the experience of players with little benefit to others...that being said, the mineral balance was fine until Science got its own source of minerals.

Fixing this issue at the source is 1,000 times better than nerfing everything in Science instead, and that is why I make this statement.

hanshansenhansson · Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:38 pm

You all talk as if xrays are lategame. They appear after 20 to 25mins top, if someone works on them. That is the problem.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 12:40 pm #96242

Seeing as I've played RD many times during blob rounds and have the satisfaction of making xray lasers at least maybe 3-4 times the claims of it being TOO OP is one damn stupid claim. I've made this argument before and it's always a factor when making xray lasers.
1. Does Mining/Did have players that have turned in the minerals to actually get the xray lasers from RnD?
2. Is the RnD smart enough to actually get the research needed for the damn things?
3. Last I did it on /tg/ combat shotties from cargo were needed for Xray lasers

Science is solely dependent on cargo/mining, with the odd exception of what people are saying about some crusher giving mineral for metal, which is fucking retarded. If they can deliver certain things that allow the construction of an x-ray laser then what do blobs have to fear? If the crew is on point then GG should pop in or near science to stop them.

This is a NON-EXSISTANT PROBLEM that some people think need to be fixed because they've been on the receiving end of getting x-ray lasered, this has never been an issue before at all.

phil235 · Post by **phil235** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 1:50 pm #96252

How much time and effort it takes RnD to make xray is irrelevant, the xray gun obliterates the blob. No item should be able to counter an antag 100% of the time, that's why we don't have armors absorbing 100% of the damage for example. Also, I think many of you overestimate how big the proposed nerf is. Even the biggest nerf option would still leave the xray as the best weapon against the blob, hitting multiple blobtiles from off the screen. The blob would still have very little chance to survive against it.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:32 pm #96264

phil235 wrote:How much time and effort it takes RnD to make xray is irrelevant, the xray gun obliterates the blob. No item should be able to counter an antag 100% of the time, that's why we don't have armors absorbing 100% of the damage for example. Also, I think many of you overestimate how big the proposed nerf is. Even the biggest nerf option would still leave the xray as the best weapon against the blob, hitting multiple blobtiles from off the screen. The blob would still have very little chance to survive against it.

You do realize that the point by which xrays are acquired is also the point that the bleb has hit the point of no return, and is way too huge to fight with anything but xrays?

Secondly, you do realize that, if not for xrays, chem blob would be dominating more than it feels like they are already. Killing two blobbies and being knocked out for 10 minutes is really really bad, yet you call xrays OP? Secondly, the blob doesn't insta-lose with xrays being in the picture - at that point they're often massive and nigh undefeatable. If more blobs did smart shit like, say, building storage nodes and banking resources to rush an xray user, then suddenly you'd find that they'd be much less powerful. Furthermore, I've noticed astonishing amounts of blob players literally not creating resource/fac nodes, not splitting, and so on, yet many still wind up winning, or give the crew a long-ass fight until xrays come into the picture, despite doing literally nothing to build their economy.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the community just like Cheri/Pap. 15 people said 'none of the above'. Don't push your changes on us because you believe they're required. Remake the poll with an actual 'no nerf' option. If you don't give a fuck about the community, and only care what yourself thinks, why are you even pretending with this poll?

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 2:57 pm #96269

Amelius wrote:
phil235 wrote:How much time and effort it takes RnD to make xray is irrelevant, the xray gun obliterates the blob. No item should be able to counter an antag 100% of the time, that's why we don't have armors absorbing 100% of the damage for example. Also, I think many of you overestimate how big the proposed nerf is. Even the biggest nerf option would still leave the xray as the best weapon against the blob, hitting multiple blobtiles from off the screen. The blob would still have very little chance to survive against it.
You do realize that the point by which xrays are acquired is also the point that the bleb has hit the point of no return, and is way too huge to fight with anything but xrays?

Secondly, you do realize that, if not for xrays, chem blob would be dominating more than it feels like they are already. Killing two blobbies and being knocked out for 10 minutes is really really bad, yet you call xrays OP? Secondly, the blob doesn't insta-lose with xrays being in the picture - at that point they're often massive and nigh undefeatable. If more blobs did smart shit like, say, building storage nodes and banking resources to rush an xray user, then suddenly you'd find that they'd be much less powerful. Furthermore, I've noticed astonishing amounts of blob players literally not creating resource/fac nodes, not splitting, and so on, yet many still wind up winning, or give the crew a long-ass fight until xrays come into the picture, despite doing literally nothing to build their economy.

Furthermore, you're ignoring the community just like Cheri/Pap. 15 people said 'none of the above'. Don't push your changes on us because you believe they're required. Remake the poll with an actual 'no nerf' option. If you don't give a fuck about the community, and only care what yourself thinks, why are you even pretending with this poll?

Once again I say this;
THIS IS A NON-ISSUE, NEVER HAVE PEOPLE BITCHED AND MOANED ABOUT THE XRAY LASER.
It's evidently clear that the OP had a bad experience on the receiving end of an xray laser, otherwise this makes no sense to try and change something that for years hasn't been changed.

hanshansenhansson · Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:41 pm

It takes 2 people, maximum 3, 25mins to make xray lasers. Just one competent person with an xray can then solo the blob. That is just boring. Currently blob rounds for the crew consist of doing whatever they like, until xray guns come out, then crew wins. Just boring gameplay. Pay attention to dead chat as soon as blob is announced, lots of players agree and hit the /suicide once it becomes clear. It is just not fun in the current state.

Skyglazer · Post by **Skyglazer** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 4:54 pm #96293

This is the biggest case of "I got killed by this, please nerf it," I've ever seen, it's not even subtle. It's already been stated in this thread the counters to x-rays and I don't feel like it needs to be said again but x-ray guns do not need to be nerfed at all. If anything, nerf goofball's stupid-good new research changes, but not the entirety of research itself.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:22 pm #96325

hanshansenhansson wrote:Pay attention to dead chat as soon as blob is announced, lots of players agree and hit the /suicide once it becomes clear. It is just not fun in the current state.

What's more likely, people suicide because xrays are 'OP', in your words? Or because blob is boring in it's current rendition because it's procedural and barely anything changes round-to-round? How would downgrading xrays make blob better? Wouldn't it just extend the round length of an already longish round type that barely anyone likes? Wouldn't it just make blobs even more indominable?

Few want this change. Make a real poll with a 'don't change it' option and you'll see that the majority disagrees with you.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Jun 16, 2015 7:51 pm

Who do I have to vote for headmin to get people like this permabanned from anything associated with TGstation.

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Jun 16, 2015 11:44 pm #96405

People haven't bitched and moaned about the xray until recenly because people havent abused it until recently.
It's the same thing with flashes. They got changed to their current state quite a while ago, but it's only just recently that people have brought it up/raised the issue.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:08 pm #96788

> Changelog.
> Nerfed the xray gun.

So basically you don't give a flying fuck what people think. Don't make feedback polls and don't pretend you care about our opinions if you're just going to spout loaded questions ('so xray gun is OP and needs to be nerfed', without proving that the xray gun is OP) as a given premise while changing things anyway if we disagree with you.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:33 pm #96795

Amelius wrote:> Changelog.
> Nerfed the xray gun.

So basically you don't give a flying fuck what people think. Don't make feedback polls and don't pretend you care about our opinions if you're just going to spout loaded questions ('so xray gun is OP and needs to be nerfed', without proving that the xray gun is OP) as a given premise while changing things anyway if we disagree with you.

That.

60% votes don't nerf. Nerfs anyway.

which is a big middle finger to everyone participating in these kinds of discussions.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 5:44 pm #96803

I keep saying to stop fucking voting in polls because its rare anybody listens to them anyway.

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 6:36 pm #96809

Saegrimr wrote:I keep saying to stop fucking voting in polls because its rare anybody listens to them anyway.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 7:36 pm #96814

To be fair, all he ended up doing was shortening their range to 15 tiles. They still pierce everything, the beams just won't go on forever and ever looping through space infinitely. I don't recall them doing that before, so this could practically be considered a fix.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:00 pm #96820

PKPenguin321 wrote:To be fair, all he ended up doing was shortening their range to 15 tiles. They still pierce everything, the beams just won't go on forever and ever looping through space infinitely. I don't recall them doing that before, so this could practically be considered a fix.

Rather than saying
"NERFED XRAY LASER"
It should've said
"Decreased the range to 15 tiles'

Saegrimr wrote:I keep saying to stop fucking voting in polls because its rare anybody listens to them anyway.

The only bad thing is that they're usually done to gauge public opinion and usually get discarded when the coder does what they want. No offense to coders but if they're gonna put a pull they really should abide but the public opinion rather than their own.

ChangelingRain · Thu Jun 18, 2015 11:25 pm

If a "nerf" down to 15 tile range makes people stop using the xray laser, then they probably have no idea how long 15 tiles is.

iyaerP · Post by **iyaerP** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:27 am #96904

Anonus wrote:If a "nerf" down to 15 tile range makes people stop using the xray laser, then they probably have no idea how long 15 tiles is.

I do mad bomber all the time. I know precisely how long it is, and htat is one more than the radius of bombcap.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 11:35 am #97065

Oldcap, not current, right?

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:15 pm #97071

xrays also completely invalidate gang.

Today during a gang round where I was RD (not a gangster), one gang setup a dominator in viro, 300s timer or so.

I had time to make xray lasers, get firing pins, get an xray implant put into me, before I proceeded to MASSACRE THE EVERY LOVING SHIT out of the dominator, and most of the gang from the safety of maint.
I would have wiped them completely out if it wasn't for sec bombing me by accident.

But atleast the 15 range nerf means it can't just be spammed through the station from space.

Post by **PKPenguin321** » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:58 pm #97483

lumipharon wrote:xrays also completely invalidate gang.

Today during a gang round where I was RD (not a gangster), one gang setup a dominator in viro, 300s timer or so.

I had time to make xray lasers, get firing pins, get an xray implant put into me, before I proceeded to MASSACRE THE EVERY LOVING SHIT out of the dominator, and most of the gang from the safety of maint.
I would have wiped them completely out if it wasn't for sec bombing me by accident.

But atleast the 15 range nerf means it can't just be spammed through the station from space.

Are extremely strong ambushes like these not the intended use of a gun that shoots through walls (and requires a very decent amount of time to set up, during which the entire process can be easily sabotaged)? I don't see the problem, honestly.
Regardless, I'm pretty sure xray lasers were tweaked to not damage gang dominators as much in a recent gang PR.

What should be able to stop xray beams?