Armour Nerfs

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Steelpoint
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Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:43 pm #96557

To pre-empt I'm keeping this first post opinion free so I can deliver the facts. I also want to note this is not a smear campaign, don't assume malicious intent.

---------------------------------------------

Recently a PR was merged that significantly nerfed the effectiveness of most armour across the board, on average most armour items have lost around 50% of their effectiveness.

The PR in question: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/9702

The reasons presented by the author, Kor, was that armour is too strong against antagonist weapons, with items such as energy swords being too ineffective in killing someone wearing armour.

The current armour values for all affected items will be displayed below, with a comparison to their prior values.

ARMOUR VESTS
Spoiler:
Body Armour
New Values: melee = 25 | Laser = 25
Old Values: melee = 50 | Laser = 50

HoS Greatcoat (+Varients)
New Values: melee = 30 | Laser = 30
Old Values: melee = 65 | Laser = 50

Captain's Armour |BUFFED|
New Values: bullet = 40
Old Values: bullet =30

Riot Armour
New Values: melee = 50
Old Values: melee = 80

Bulletproof Armour
New Values: melee = 15 | bullet = 60
Old Values: melee = 25 | bullet = 80

Laserproof Armour
New Values: laser = 60
Old Values: laser = 80


SPACE SUITS |BODY|
Spoiler:
Deathsquad Power Armour
New Values: melee = 50 | bullet = 40 | laser = 30 | bomb = 50
Old Values: melee = 80 | bullet = 80 | laser = 50 | bomb = 100

ERT Space Suit
New Values: melee = 30 | laser 30
Old Values: melee = 65 | laser = 50

Nuke Op|Syndicate Space Suit
New Values: melee = 40
Old Values: melee = 60


Helmets|Headware
Spoiler:
Standard Helmet
New Values: melee = 25 | Laser = 25
Old Values: melee = 50 | Laser = 50

Bulletproof Helmet
New Values: melee = 15 | bullet = 60
Old Values: melee = 25 | bullet = 80

Riot Helmet
New Values: melee = 41
Old Values: melee = 81

SWAT Helmet
New Values: melee = 40 | bullet = 30 | laser = 25
Old Values: melee = 80 | bullet = 60 | laser = 50

HoS Beret/Hat
New Values: melee = 40 | bullet = 30| laser = 25
Old Values: melee = 80 | bullet = 60 | laser = 50


I skipped some items mostly due to them being mostly unused items or irrelevant.

I was going to initially put up my own PR to make my own changes/reverts. However I think having a discussion on this issue, and our combat system in general if need be, on the forums would be more effective than using Github's less than stellar method of communication.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Ikarrus » Wed Jun 17, 2015 4:50 pm #96558

Kor wrote:I'm gonna put up a poll/revert PR ~2 weeks from when the armor thing got changed

Just FYI
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:02 pm #96562

I was hoping there wouldn't be a thread about this for a week or two to ask if people had actually noticed any gameplay difference rather than if they agree eith thr principle of the change. I'm sure the majority of players dont even know this happened yet.

I'm not sure how to accurately measure the impact of the change other than through anecdotes though.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:05 pm #96563

Off topic but you really should have written a changelog.

Personally I think these changes are too far reaching and extreme. What hits me at home is that the HoS's armour is effectivly only a few points better than what a sec officer wears.

Effectivly this change is far more a security nerf than anything else, as only security are the one's to be wearing armour 95% of the time.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Amelius » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:10 pm #96564

Deathsquid/ERT/Nuke op armor _needs_ to be the same as usual. Especially the last one. A single toolbox from an assistant is now pretty damaging, when in the past they'd shrug it off. Winrate is sub-25 here, throw 'em a bone.

Specialized armors like bulletproof vests, etc. should have their normal _specialized_ values (e.g. bulletproof vest have 80% bullet res, or whatever it had), otherwise there's very very little reason to use them above general armor.

Steelpoint wrote:Off topic but you really should have written a changelog.

Personally I think these changes are too far reaching and extreme. What hits me at home is that the HoS's armour is effectivly only a few points better than what a sec officer wears.

Effectivly this change is far more a security nerf than anything else, as only security are the one's to be wearing armour 95% of the time.


Sec needs a nerf, but honestly, the HoS/Cap equipment probably should probably be buffed substantially. They need to be robust in their position.

Also, I'm not sure if this is the right way of going about nerfing sec (helmet cams and flashes are cancer - flashbangs are A-OK in my book, simply because they're single-use and have an obvious chargeup time - most I could agree on is a stun reduction).
Last edited by Amelius on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:12 pm #96565

Steelpoint wrote:Off topic but you really should have written a changelog.

Personally I think these changes are too far reaching and extreme. What hits me at home is that the HoS's armour is effectivly only a few points better than what a sec officer wears.

Effectivly this change is far more a security nerf than anything else, as only security are the one's to be wearing armour 95% of the time.


Yes it's partially meant to be a sec nerf. Making the game deadlier requires security losing control of the situation. I also just want non stun melee weapons to be viable. We can't move away from a stun system if sec officers have 200% health against nonstun melee attacks.

I regret doing armor though I should have done something about flashbangs or AoE flashes though. As long as it's in I'd like to let it play out for a couple weeks.

And the lack of changelog (hopefully) means less people will make an opinion about the change before experiencing it.

I don't want to pull an HG but you've got one connection in the past 2 months, and it was before change went live. Hell you have less than 10 connections since March.

I'm not saying I'm gonna disregard feedback immediately based on play time but I'd rather people at least experience something first.
Last edited by onleavedontatme on Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby TheNightingale » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:14 pm #96566

Why not just nerf the basic armour, and leave the rest? The HoS, Warden, Syndicate and Deathsquad really should have good protection. It stops Security being able to tank an energy sword user in melee, but still offers them slightly better protection against conventional attacks. (You can still two-shot an officer with a revolver, though...)

(Also, shouldn't the Captain's winter coat (which now has basic Security armour values) have stats equivalent to the carapace?)

The damage-specific armours (riot, bulletproof, ablative) should have a little higher damage protection in their areas: whilst 50% is a lot, they're overspecialised so that they only protect against that type. 75, maybe?

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:17 pm #96567

Amelius wrote:Deathsquid/ERT/Nuke op armor _needs_ to be the same as usual. Especially the last one. A single toolbox from an assistant is now pretty damaging, when in the past they'd shrug it off. Winrate is sub-25 here, throw 'em a bone.


If admins are spawning deathsquad/ERT, and the deathsquad/ERT dies, they can just spawn a second one. I believe it's more fun for everyone involved if one side isn't completely helpless, otherwise 95% of the server is no longer playing the game, and the other 5% has no challenge/are just clicking people. Even if the end result of multiple deathsquads is the same as the result of one immortal one, at least the victims got to take a few with them.

If an assistant is toolboxing you (and doing 5 whole damage with the new change) despite your overwhelming firepower you deserve to die. They'd have to hit you 20 times not counting your combat injector.

And ops have a ~50% winrate.


TheNightingale wrote:(You can still two-shot an officer with a revolver, though...)


This is why I believe most people wouldn't have even noticed the change. I never touched bullet resist on most armor, it was already abysmal. I wanted melee weapons to be relevant/scary as well.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:20 pm #96572

Yes I've not been playing much SS13 as of late. Mainly because the rounds have gotten so long I can't put aside two hours to commit to a round.

Irrespective of that I've played the game for long enough to know the difference between a high level defence item and a low level defence item, and what I'm saying is that we will see more security dying far quicker than before. Essentially this change will punish any mistake a sec player makes even more than prior, and this will further reinforce the idea of stunning a officer and slashing them to death before they can get up.

Before hand stunning and slashing a officer in one go was a dangerous thing to do, but now I think that tactic will suddenly work. A tactic that should not work on a officer let alone the sole head of security.

Melee was always deadly against anyone not wearing armour, yet this change means armour is not effective against one of the most common forms of damage dealing. That's bad.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Amelius » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:22 pm #96573

Kor wrote:And ops have a ~50% winrate.


Last time someone cited statistics they said 25%~. Where are you (or the other dude) getting your statistics from, or is everyone just making them up to suit their positions?

Anywho, to be honest
Spoiler:
I didn't even notice anything changed, and I feel like no one else did, and everyone is disagreeing from a theoretical standpoint.
Not sure what to think of that.

@Kor, the idea is that everything is going to be twice as damaging to a nuke op, whereas most of the 'meat' in between them and the disk don't wear armor in the first place. Thus a flat armor nerf is probably a pretty hefty nerf to ops. Is it possible to find recent (since this PR was merged) op winrates? It might help.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:26 pm #96574

Maybe its referring to the theory presented that nuke ops preform very poorly on high pop rounds whereas on lower pop rounds they preform very well?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Wed Jun 17, 2015 5:36 pm #96578

Amelius wrote:
Kor wrote:And ops have a ~50% winrate.


Last time someone cited statistics they said 25%~. Where are you (or the other dude) getting your statistics from, or is everyone just making them up to suit their positions?

Anywho, to be honest
Spoiler:
I didn't even notice anything changed, and I feel like no one else did, and everyone is disagreeing from a theoretical standpoint.
Not sure what to think of that.

@Kor, the idea is that everything is going to be twice as damaging to a nuke op, whereas most of the 'meat' in between them and the disk don't wear armor in the first place. Thus a flat armor nerf is probably a pretty hefty nerf to ops. Is it possible to find recent (since this PR was merged) op winrates? It might help.


http://ss13.eu/tgdb/tg/latest_stats.htm ... _emergency

44% currently

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:33 am #96670

I noticed the change distinctively, when I got dunked as hos with 2 shots from a shotgun to the head.

The specialty armors are terrible now. bullet proof vest went from 80% to 40% (it's getting buffed in another pr by ikky though).
This translates to a 60 brute bullet (revolver/LMG/full burst from an SMG) doing 12 damage prenerf, and 36 post nerf.
Prenerf you could take up to 9 shots to crit (one shot hitting the limbs cuts that down to 4, 2 into limbs is crit on it's own)
Post nerf is a guaranteed 2-3 shot crit.

I haven't checked if riot armor is still slow, but if it is, oh lawdy.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby RG4 » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:40 am #96671

The PR seems to make out that everyone aims for the chest, which they seriously do not most fights you'll see are people aiming for the head. Nor does it factor in the RNG chance of getting a knock on items such as e-swords and arm blades, both of which are the most high damaging melee weapons one can aquire and have a high chances of knockdown/knockdown which coupling with attacks to the makes them very deadly within two to three swings. Helmet or not you'll still get knocked out very easily for that matter long enough for them to kill you,strip your body and throw it somewhere in maint.

Same appliers for bullets and lasers, but lasers can easily crit an armored officer, the kill intent on most lasers will kill anyone w/o armor. Anyone who is wearing armor will have the virtue of being in crit or near crit.Usually being in those stages makes you each pickings for the person trying to kill unless you a little more robust than they are. Now bullets make all basic armor moot, no chance of surviving if you get shot in the head twice with a revolver,buckshot(grant buckshot is shit even at close range) you're mostly certainly critted or knocked out. Chest shots even deal massive amounts of damage but don't have the KO chance of hitting the noggin. Bulletproof armor and what I assume the tactical helmets offer superior bullet protection because it's meant to combat Syndies and traitors with ballastics which is why it's in the armor not with every other officer. Riot suit,helmet and a shield are a worse nightmare for melee traitors because of the high damage resistance of the armor, the trade off is being slow as fuck and vulnerable to ranged weapons.

HoS and Captain(Captain needs higher values than HoS armor, he's the fucking captain) are meant for the survival of the stations biggest players. HoS armor is amazingly robust, usually making anyone below 20 brute weapons laughable as the HoS pulls out his own baton and rattles your ass. The point of is protecting the Head of Security - Guy with all access to security and probably just about everywhere,arrest records,etc,etc. The only people who get pissed over HoS armor are people who got killed trying to melee the HoS with anything BUT an esword.

Now lets talk about constructs, most constructs tend to attack limbs other than the head or chest, usually result in sec officers getting their legs fuck up while trying to combat a construct. Most constructs avoid people like riot suiters,HoSes, and miners because those have high brute resistance and attacking them w/o assistance is fool hardy.

Miners get the privilege of having the BEST melee resistant armor, starting out with a base 50% they can use goliath plates to make their heads and bodies have a whopping 90% of melee resistance, tack on a security jumpsuit and you get a full 100% resistance to anywhere but their head. While this is kinda stupid there is a risk/reward system with it.
Risk: Killing goliaths and other mining mobs
Reward: Melee reducing plates for you armor
Note other miners are in competition for theses with usually 8-10 goliaths on the mining roid.
BUT they are are blown out of the water the moment someone uses ranged weapons on them. Just a few shots from any ranged weapons, including beanbag shells make this juggernaut easy prey. Just make sure you keep them stunned,strip their armor, or cuff them.

Also fucking with ERT and DS stuff is stupid.
Chest/Body:
Brute:
Mining Rig
Riot Armor
HoS/Captain's armor
Standard Vest

Laser:
Reactive Vest(?)
HoS/Captain's armor
Security HS
Standard Vest

Bullet:
Bullet proof vest
HoS/Captain armor
Security HS

Head Gear:
Laser:
Anything HoS/Captain
Helmet
Brute:
Mining Rig
Riot Helmet
HoS Hats
Sec HS
Helmet

Bullet:
Tactical Helm
HoS/Captain Gear
Sec HS

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 12:48 am #96672

It makes more sense for the hos to have better armor then the captain, since the hos' job is to deal with security issues, where the captain's job is to crack the whip and hide on the bridge.

But yeah. The majority of armor doesn't cover the full body OR has slowdown penalties (riot/hardsuits/etc). This made even the very high resist armors not ggnore, since they are all still counterable (either with kiting or hitting limbs).
The HoS is the only one that has good full body armor that doesn't have slowdown, because he's the damn HoS.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby invisty » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:44 am #96678

I put on bulletproof armour the other day to try and counter a revolver-thermal-maintenance traitor, and I died in three hits. There is really no practical advantage of obtaining armoury-access gear (which also lacks the stats of your base-access gear) if it makes practically no difference to your survivability. The main problem here isn't so much the armour's stats, but the fact that the weapons which warrant use of this special armour are going to shit all over you regardless of whether or not you're wearing it. The potential DPS of these weapons is so enormous that you'd need a damage reduction of ~50% to make it have any impact on improving your odds.

I understand the fact that it's probably a lot more effective vs 10mms. Why not integrate the bulletproof stat to regular sec armour and just do away with bulletproof armour if it's so insignificant? Realism be damned.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 1:53 am #96681

because bulletproof is getting unnerfed.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby CPTANT » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:55 am #96733

What if we rebuff armour and simply remove the limb damage cap? That way armour is still useful but people who think beyond "hurr durr aim for the head/chest" partially mitigate the advantage.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby DemonFiren » Thu Jun 18, 2015 8:17 pm #96830

Removing the limb damage cap should also make doorshocking fun again, I think.
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Spoiler:
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Cheimon » Thu Jun 18, 2015 9:29 pm #96849

Removing the limb damage cap would make aiming for the chest pointless. If you want to crit someone while aiming for a limb, switch limbs partway through.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jun 19, 2015 6:22 am #97013

The upcoming PR that adds in the potential for weapons/bullets/whatever to have armour piercing, that allows it to ignore a certain amount of someone's armour, would allow us to put back, or even more so buff, the armour values.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Cheimon » Fri Jun 19, 2015 12:40 pm #97079

That's all very well, but armour only ever really was that useful against the big guns: swords, guns, actual intentional weapons. If those get 'armour piercing' then suddenly armour is only useful against the stuff that you don't need as much protection from.

Anyway, I'm annoyed about the armour change. It was useful, not everyone had stuns, and as a sec officer I quite often found myself in a position where armour was the difference between life and death. Making it weaker without any real explanation (apart from, apparently, that armour only wastes the time of the attacker who's stunned his victim, hur hur) was just an uncalled for nerf, that wasn't fun or needed.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Amelius » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:08 pm #97110

From the point of view of a murderboner, I actually quite like this change. It used to be I would spend minutes beating a single officer to death while tugging him through maint because of the absurdly high armor and limb cap damage, and I HAVE in the past spent many-a-minute tugging a HoS through maint and not killing him even over that period because of their (justifiably) even more absurd armor, that really, you have to find a nice little spot while they're screaming bloody murder and rip off their helmet and headset. Being able to now, well, actually kill security as an antag without spending five billion years devoted to them gets a good + from me, generally, especially in an age of goddamn headcams and AoE flashes, with antags facing an overall far more robust force than in the past since the introduction of antag rolling before roles.

Just sayin', being able to actually kill people with a double e-sword without a stun, instead of getting dunked immediately is a major improvement, the absurd armor many sec officers use tends to carry them to victory, and without a long stretch of time to devote to each security officer (re: literally impossible with sec maint, helmetcams, and a horrendously bored sec force that will result in every man woman and child converging on your location in maint if you don't EMP / mutetox them), said antag would get dunked regardless.

Oh yeah, another thing, roundstart sec guards get those fancy helmetcams, which ALSO prevent you from stripping their headsets since the last change. This basically make it ludicrous to kill an officer (sans EMP) subtlely without everyone being informed, far, far beyond a 'help'!

That's all very well, but armour only ever really was that useful against the big guns: swords, guns, actual intentional weapons. If those get 'armour piercing' then suddenly armour is only useful against the stuff that you don't need as much protection from.


I disagree. Armor is simply not intended to carry you through fights. It's more about the small stuff - a random assistant with a toolbox shouldn't be able to kill a fully-armed security guard, completely unarmed without at least some time spent whacking at them. This balances rev/gang/etc. A double-esword costs almost all your TC, and a single esword makes a ridiculously loud noise on each swing on top of not stunning. As a result, I feel like security definitely shouldn't have the advantage against either of them by heaping on craptons of armor.

Yes but Security make up the minority of the crew, in my opinion being able to one off stun then kill a Security Officer, let alone the sole Head of Security, seems excessive, at least for a traitor.


Security tends to be almost equal / 2 in numbers, compared to traitors. However, they have the advantage of inter-department communication, solidarity, a subtle validhunter alliance with the AI, full-access to the most murder-heavy areas (maint), essential flashbang immunity (and acquisition of flashbangs that ends most fights against anyone without a bowman headset), AoE flash crippling on anyone without sunglasses (resulting in an automatic victory), helmetcams to have AI/warden interfence 'off-camera', no matter how subtle they're killed, and so on. Do they really need insanely strong armor to carry them through fights on top of already being carried in almost every alternative sense? Are we that hugbo xy?

Really though, I don't know of anyone you can crit without requiring a second stun. That said, it's cheesy to rely on armor to carry you through fights.
Last edited by Amelius on Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:20 pm #97112

Yes but Security make up the minority of the crew, in my opinion being able to one off stun then kill a Security Officer, let alone the sole Head of Security, seems excessive, at least for a traitor. Not to mention that at that point why bother with armour if it provides no actual protection over wearing nothing at all?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:25 pm #97113

If you're going to put it that way, traitors are also a minority, and they get one off stunned all the time.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:30 pm #97114

True, except this is a asymmetrical game, consider looking at the 'Mercs Vs Spies' gamemode offered in several Splinter Cell games.

The Mercs are heavily armoured, have powerful weapons and are almost impossible to attack directly, the Spies on the otherhand have greater situational awareness, can go into places no one else can and have powerful close range weapons alongside the element of surprise, but they are very weak in a straight up confrontation and almost always lose in a direct fight.

That should be the case for Security vs Traitors. Security should be able to stand their ground in a direct fight, taking on a member of security should revolve around ambushing them and using the advantages of stealth and surprise to your advantage, not nerfing security's equipment until its nearly worthless.

The fact that now the Head of Security is just as vulnerable as a Security Officer should be setting off alarm bells, talk about a fall from grace from going from being the most powerful person on the station to just being a security officer with a black alternative uniform scheme.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Ikarrus » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:34 pm #97115

How are you supposed to ambush them if the game revolves around stuns and stuns for traitors are hard to come by?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:37 pm #97117

Blame Paprika for that one.

Ultimantly this issue of combat and balance is bigger than just this one PR, a fundamental change to our game's combat system is going to take a lot of time, effort and discussion. I just personally think that starting it off by nerfing most of the game's armour is not the correct way in starting this off, instead of us forming a better dialog we are instead arguing over the merits and negatives of a change which, frankly, won't be relevant for long.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Amelius » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:39 pm #97118

Steelpoint wrote:That should be the case for Security vs Traitors. Security should be able to stand their ground in a direct fight, taking on a member of security should revolve around ambushing them and using the advantages of stealth and surprise to your advantage, not nerfing security's equipment until its nearly worthless.


We are so far from that currently it's absurd. It's impossible to ambush any member of security without buying an EMP kit AND acquisitioning sunglasses, somehow, or sabotaging tcomms. This means you're downright fucked if you aren't the QM, in engineering, or fluke out with a C4 above tcomms. Then there's helmetcams which makes stealth literally impossible, OP flashbangs/flashes that make confrontation with anyone robust impossible without security equipment, high armor values (when they are inevitably reverted) that makes it impossible to kill an officer by surprise without the whole legion being notified, and so on. The game is tilted so far into sec's ballpark, that you either have to be a ridiculously efficient antagonist and loot sec equipment to kill security, or be a ridiculously subtle antagonist (re: sitting in a locker for the entire round after killing your target). We've been catering toward the below-average security guard for so long, like we don't give a fuck about even the average traitor.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:44 pm #97120

Hence why I've been calling for a rework of our combat, just as a lot of other people have.

Ultimantly the problems you've described have all occured over a very long period of time, not out of malicious intent or otherwise but simply being done at face value for good reasoning's at the time with no consideration to past and future changes.

As the saying goes. "The road to hell is paved with good intention". The situation we are in now is not a intentional result, but simply a result of years of changes done out of good intent.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Amelius » Fri Jun 19, 2015 2:48 pm #97123

Steelpoint wrote:Hence why I've been calling for a rework of our combat, just as a lot of other people have.

Ultimantly the problems you've described have all occured over a very long period of time, not out of malicious intent or otherwise but simply being done at face value for good reasoning's at the time with no consideration to past and future changes.

As the saying goes. "The road to hell is paved with good intention". The situation we are in now is not a intentional result, but simply a result of years of changes done out of good intent.


All I'm saying is the armor nerf is a decent patchwork fix. It doesn't solve anything, but it certainly makes it alot easier to deal with security, generally speaking, and helps encourage antagonists. I will say I've had alot more fun rounds as antagonist since the change.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:36 pm #97144

I dunno where the idea that a single officer "should" have a massive advantage over a single traitor comes from anyway. It shouldn't take a massive amount of planning to kill the rank and file or else only the best players can dare do anything overt lest they be quickly swarmed by invincible MMO town guards.

Security still has batons, flashes (automatic win if they dont have glasses), flashbangs, and a gun so they're still at an offensive advantage in a straight fight. They'll just die if they slip up now, same as anyone else.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:38 pm #97145

Also dunno why people keep going on about bullets, most armor has the same bullet resist as before (fuckall). Officers always died very quickly to revolvers

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:45 pm #97147

Yeah, revolvers are still as GGNORE for officers as always.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Lumbermancer » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:02 pm #97148

What if we split melee damage into more subtypes, i.e. blunt, cut, pierce or something. Same with bullet damage: HP, FMJ. Default revolver ammo could be Hollow Points, less effective against armor, more effective against flesh.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Cheimon » Fri Jun 19, 2015 5:27 pm #97157

I was mentioning bullets because before the armour nerf, I'd regularly swap out for a bulletproof vest and helmet if I knew I was fighting someone with a gun or a bunch of nuke ops. The protection it gave made it worth the time to go to the armoury and get that kit, since it would make you last for way longer in the field. You could go to fight someone with a revolver, for example, and know that even if they shot 6 bullets into you then you could still manage to stun and cuff. It was nice to have something that rewarded preparation in this way, but when that was halved, suddenly it became much less useful. Tanking 3 revolver bullets instead of 2 is not at all useful compared to tanking 6 bullets instead of 2, especially when the use of those 6 bullets then forced the person to reload or switch weapons. Then gangs came out, and having protection from bullets became even more useful.

Anyway, apparently armour didn't do anything in stun based combat. At least vests are getting unnerfed, but helmets almost probably won't be, and since that's the case there'll be no reason not to aim for the head.

In response to someone saying that armour is there to protect against occasional toolbox hits: bullshit. You don't need protecting against occasional toolbox hits: it's 10 damage. Armour is there for when you have really high damage coming in and you need a lot of it mitigated: eswords, swarms of people, gunfire. If it can't help against those, it's still nerfed pointlessly.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:05 am #97376

Cheimon wrote:I was mentioning bullets because before the armour nerf, I'd regularly swap out for a bulletproof vest and helmet if I knew I was fighting someone with a gun or a bunch of nuke ops. The protection it gave made it worth the time to go to the armoury and get that kit, since it would make you last for way longer in the field. You could go to fight someone with a revolver, for example, and know that even if they shot 6 bullets into you then you could still manage to stun and cuff. It was nice to have something that rewarded preparation in this way, but when that was halved, suddenly it became much less useful. Tanking 3 revolver bullets instead of 2 is not at all useful compared to tanking 6 bullets instead of 2, especially when the use of those 6 bullets then forced the person to reload or switch weapons. Then gangs came out, and having protection from bullets became even more useful.

Anyway, apparently armour didn't do anything in stun based combat. At least vests are getting unnerfed, but helmets almost probably won't be, and since that's the case there'll be no reason not to aim for the head.

In response to someone saying that armour is there to protect against occasional toolbox hits: bullshit. You don't need protecting against occasional toolbox hits: it's 10 damage. Armour is there for when you have really high damage coming in and you need a lot of it mitigated: eswords, swarms of people, gunfire. If it can't help against those, it's still nerfed pointlessly.


Pretty much this.

Also helmet cams are bullshit as fuck, they only enhances the AI's nanny powers, since even in areas without cameras, the AI can still jump to them when they scream for help and reveal who is doing it.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Falamazeer » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:25 am #97380

lumipharon wrote:
Also helmet cams are bullshit as fuck, they only enhances the AI's nanny powers, since even in areas without cameras, the AI can still jump to them when they scream for help and reveal who is doing it.

AI backed officers is a big threat, but is it really a problem with sec or a problem with the AI being the single most potent role bar none, Including most antags?
Honestly, helmet cams are not the problem here, It's the super streamlined antag fucking AI, And the lack of checks and balances traitors have for it.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Sat Jun 20, 2015 7:40 am #97381

even without the AI, the warden or another sec officer at a console can instantly jump to the helmet.

SO yeah, AI has issues, but this isn't an AI exclusive one.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Cik » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:29 am #97384

why not just simply remove the sec cams and / or lock them behind a relatively low R&D barrier or something

i mean what is the suggestion here, removing the AI's ability to see through cameras

i don't get it

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Steelpoint » Sat Jun 20, 2015 8:54 am #97386

I did put up a PR that removed the AI's ability to view whatever a Sec Officers camera could see. But it was never merged for almost a month, so I closed it.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:14 pm #97439

Apparently sec jumpsuits actually give +10 melee resist so they were even more melee proof than I thought. Keep that in mind while looking at values.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Falamazeer » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:34 pm #97440

Don't all jumpsuits grant a minor bonus?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Not-Dorsidarf » Sat Jun 20, 2015 5:55 pm #97443

Paprika removed it ages ago
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Remie Richards » Sat Jun 20, 2015 9:22 pm #97487

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Paprika removed it ages ago


What did paprika remove? sec jumpsuit melee armor?

Code: Select all
/obj/item/clothing/under/rank/security
   name = "security jumpsuit"
   desc = "A tactical security jumpsuit for officers complete with nanotrasen belt buckle."
   icon_state = "security"
   item_state = "r_suit"
   item_color = "security"
   armor = list(melee = 10, bullet = 0, laser = 0,energy = 0, bomb = 0, bio = 0, rad = 0)
   strip_delay = 50


And the base /under's armor value has been the same for a long ass time (the commit was made by an SVN user's email address) so he can't have changed that.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Jun 20, 2015 11:31 pm #97519

I think someone tried. The jumpsuit being armoured was an actual balance issue and led to chembleb.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby lumipharon » Sun Jun 21, 2015 1:34 am #97547

pap removed the bonuses of every jumpsuit in the game, back they got re-added, presumably after he got blacklisted.

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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Remie Richards » Sun Jun 21, 2015 7:21 pm #97661

lumipharon wrote:pap removed the bonuses of every jumpsuit in the game, back they got re-added, presumably after he got blacklisted.


Not according to git history or git blame, his PR (if it exists as you so claim) clearly never got added.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Remie Richards » Sun Jun 21, 2015 8:40 pm #97677

Just going to shill my PR that caps armour reduction at 90% because of a shocking discovery.
Cloaks, worn on the back slot (ffs xhuis they work better on the exosuit slot like labcoats) actually have armour, for the HoS CE and Cap, this is 10% Melee resistance.

We were missing one item to get invincibility in game, cloaks (3 of which fit the candidacy!) are that.
Sec jumpsuit (10%) + Fully upgrade mining rig (80%) + Cloak (10%) = 100% melee resistance.
(Not to mention augments which give a flat -5 to all incoming damage, And no, that won't mean you'll be healed with this clothing setup, it'll mean the augs are worthless)

Thank god somebody made a PR to cap armour at 90% resistance (:3)

Not to mention if the HoS's armour was at it's usual 65% (Pre Kor-Nerf), if they were to then where their cloak they'd be at 75% damage resistance at ROUNDSTART.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Postby Incomptinence » Sun Jun 21, 2015 9:51 pm #97699

How about armour converts a fraction of the damage prevented to stamina damage? You are still being knocked about after all.

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