Armour Nerfs

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Scones
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Scones » #100250

Bottom post of the previous page:

If you want to talk about toning down flashbangs, other offensive capabilities would have to be buffed to compensate

Remove the fucking taser click delay, it is by far one of the worst things about electrodes right now
plplplplp WOOOOooo hahahhaha
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Steelpoint
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #100272

Why don't we actually figure out what we want armour, security and antagonist does and how effective they are? More so we should first look at how resilient armour is for each member of security, that being a Sec Officer, Warden and the Head of Security.

---------------------

In my opinion, Security Officer armour should be sufficient to defend against lower level attacks from greytiders and other "shittlers", but otherwise should only offer mediocre protection to mid level antagonist weapons (Mid level defined as most gear Traitors get, Nuke Ops and other specilist antags get high level weapons).

The Warden should be a slight step up above Officers, maybe with higher levels of bullet and bomb protection.

The Head of Security should have very good overall defence, he should be easily able to stand up to mid level antagonist attacks.

---------------------

We need to have this discussion or else we will be condemned to argue around in circles as random people keep putting up PR's that have no direction.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by onleavedontatme » #100273

MSO said he'd run a server poll for me, I was thinking of something along the lines of

Recently, melee armor resistance in the game was heavily reduced with the intention of making melee weapons more viable compared to stuns and projectiles. What changes have you noticed in combat?

-I wasn't aware of the change and noticed no difference
-I was aware of the change but noticed no difference
-I have noticed a positive change to combat
-I have noticed a negative change to combat

(And yes I know it only specifies melee changes but I'm willing to just outright revert the changes to specialist armor like bulletproof).

I think Lumi is correct that I should have gone after flashes instead. Maybe sec maint so security is easier to avoid rather than easier to kill.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by PKPenguin321 » #100274

Steelpoint wrote:But is that a good thing?
yes, as has been stated. and in your opinion, no, it's not.
you keep saying the problem is that some people want easier to kill security and some want harder to kill
maybe the solution is to put it to a poll


ninja edit: oh fuck Kor just said they were doing a poll as i posted
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by onleavedontatme » #100275

Also I agree with you that needs discussing Steelpoint. Also that the HoS and warden need some bullet resist.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #100277

warden has like 5 bullet resist for some retarded reason, or atleast the hat.

If you take sec maint away you need to take it from greyshirts. Otherwise sec is constantly cockblocked, because everyone but them has maint access because you just loot brain dead or suicided greyshirts.
This means there's even MORE of the AI reliance. Also no maint for sec or assistants means the agent card is more valuable, since it starts with maint access.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by CPTANT » #100312

lumipharon wrote:warden has like 5 bullet resist for some retarded reason, or atleast the hat.

If you take sec maint away you need to take it from greyshirts. Otherwise sec is constantly cockblocked, because everyone but them has maint access because you just loot brain dead or suicided greyshirts.
This means there's even MORE of the AI reliance. Also no maint for sec or assistants means the agent card is more valuable, since it starts with maint access.
Seriously, maint is dark and large enough with enough hidden rooms to lose sec even if they do have access.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #100358

Any changes to bullet defence would also have to consider the stamina implications that many bullets deal, since many bullets can one or two hit stun you irrespective of any armour your wearing.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Oldman Robustin » #100361

Scones wrote:If you want to talk about toning down flashbangs, other offensive capabilities would have to be buffed to compensate

Remove the fucking taser click delay, it is by far one of the worst things about electrodes right now
Yes holy shit I feel like an ubrobust scrub when I'm chasing someone and I can't fire my taser on the run consistently so the ideal shots don't go off but at that point im just spamming clicks to get SOMETHING to shoot and end up popping electrodes into the floor/wall out of desperation.

Also thanks to Lumi for reminding me to try out the new (well new for me) flash mechanics. It's like a suicide flashbang but with no risk to yourself.

Basically we've kinda covered what we want. Yes sec needs to not die as easily as an assistant, yes the station needs to be more lethal, yes you can satisfy both parties by giving sec their defensive armor values but toss shit like helmet cams and giving antags more anti-camera anti-doorbolt tools (or alternatively nerf the bolt2win AI mechanic).

I'm pretty comfortable attacking sec in almost any antag role, what I'm not comfortable with is the AI sitting there with suit sensors in one window, click-to-track chat in the next window, and multiple helmet cams at the ready to shut down anyone actually trying to remind sec of their mortality.

It's part of the reason why only TEAM antag gametypes are fun for me nowadays because only those allow the antags to create a sufficient level of chaos to keep the AI distracted and unable to respond to all threats, and even then good AI's will still maintain control with a decent secborg.

Words cannot express my frustration the first time I got dunked by a helmet cam. I had just come back, enabled traitor again to see how it played, dragged an officer into maint and crit him before he could say anything besides "HELP". I figure I'm good to go, drag him into a locker and strip him in a maint closet. Then I hear the AI, "Oldman Robustin has killed Officer So-and-So in Northwest Maint, above the public garden, please respond."

Fuck, what, maybe its suit sensors - but how would he know I did the killing? Was he watching the whole time? So I strip the officer's jumpsuit, hide my ID, and sprint through arrivals out another maint door hoping that AI wont be track for unknowns and wont see me switch maints.

"Oldman Robustin is now dragging the body in a locker into disposals"

God... Damnit... What...
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by CPTANT » #100364

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Scones wrote:If you want to talk about toning down flashbangs, other offensive capabilities would have to be buffed to compensate

Remove the fucking taser click delay, it is by far one of the worst things about electrodes right now
Yes holy shit I feel like an ubrobust scrub when I'm chasing someone and I can't fire my taser on the run consistently so the ideal shots don't go off but at that point im just spamming clicks to get SOMETHING to shoot and end up popping electrodes into the floor/wall out of desperation.

Also thanks to Lumi for reminding me to try out the new (well new for me) flash mechanics. It's like a suicide flashbang but with no risk to yourself.

Basically we've kinda covered what we want. Yes sec needs to not die as easily as an assistant, yes the station needs to be more lethal, yes you can satisfy both parties by giving sec their defensive armor values but toss shit like helmet cams and giving antags more anti-camera anti-doorbolt tools (or alternatively nerf the bolt2win AI mechanic).

I'm pretty comfortable attacking sec in almost any antag role, what I'm not comfortable with is the AI sitting there with suit sensors in one window, click-to-track chat in the next window, and multiple helmet cams at the ready to shut down anyone actually trying to remind sec of their mortality.

It's part of the reason why only TEAM antag gametypes are fun for me nowadays because only those allow the antags to create a sufficient level of chaos to keep the AI distracted and unable to respond to all threats, and even then good AI's will still maintain control with a decent secborg.

Words cannot express my frustration the first time I got dunked by a helmet cam. I had just come back, enabled traitor again to see how it played, dragged an officer into maint and crit him before he could say anything besides "HELP". I figure I'm good to go, drag him into a locker and strip him in a maint closet. Then I hear the AI, "Oldman Robustin has killed Officer So-and-So in Northwest Maint, above the public garden, please respond."

Fuck, what, maybe its suit sensors - but how would he know I did the killing? Was he watching the whole time? So I strip the officer's jumpsuit, hide my ID, and sprint through arrivals out another maint door hoping that AI wont be track for unknowns and wont see me switch maints.

"Oldman Robustin is now dragging the body in a locker into disposals"

God... Damnit... What...
my experience when playing ling and trying to absorb a sec officer (who was my target) was about the same.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #100367

Happy to inform you then that a PR is up that is set to utterly gut Helmet Cameras.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by oranges » #100698

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10313

Nerfing the uI is fucking retarded way of making balance change
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #100755

In answering someone on a topic related to armour.

If you want to make antagonists less vulnerable to stuns, and to make stuns in generally less ggnore for security and antagonists, then look into heavily buffing the energy defence values used by armour. Most values are around 5 to 10, buffing something like Nuke Ops armour to around 50 or 70 means a ranged stun on a Op will turn from a near guaranteed capture/kill into a attack that simply causes them to drop their weapon and leave them vulnerable for a few moments.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #101040

Ok guys so, what do we want to do with armour? There are sooooooo many things we could do, but I think it might help in talking about the armour of certain antagonists and security personal and for us to figure out how we want each of them to function and be defended.
Spoiler:
--------------------------------------------
Nuke Ops
Current Values: melee = 40, bullet = 50, laser = 30, energy = 15, bomb = 35, bio = 100, rad = 50

As we all know Ops suffer from doing too well on Low Pop but too poorly on High Pop. Off topic but I think the best way to solve that is to take away Op member on low pop and give the Ops more team members on higher pop rounds.

Armour wise, I'm hesitant to suggest anything until Ops are buffed and adjusted for population win rates, the most I would suggest is look at investigating the energy values to promote stunning as more of a quick action to nab a Ops gun or disarm then than a one hit win.
--------------------------------------------
Changeling Chitinous Armour
Current Values: melee = 40, bullet = 20, laser = 30, energy = 13, bomb = 0, bio = 0, rad = 0

I've never seen a Changeling willingly use Chitinous Armour outside of the first week it was introduced. From a examination it looks very poor overall as a dedicated armour, that also requires a chemical upkeep to keep active. It just blows your cover for a marginal boost in melee protection.

For sacrificing chemicals and making you a obvious target, I suggest a boost of melee to around 60 and laser to around 40 to 50.
--------------------------------------------
Security Officer
Current Values: melee = 25, bullet = 15, laser = 25, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0

How we approach the bog standard sec officer entirely depends on how we want to make officers operate.

We have two camps, one that says officers should have reasonable protection to do well against toolboxing but only preform "ok" against higher tier antagonists. The other camp says that officers armour should really only offer one or two extra hits worth of protection at the best.

Currently this armour supports the 'weaker' camp.

What camp do you think officers should fit?
--------------------------------------------
Warden
Same Values As Sec Officer

The only advantage of Warden armour over Sec Officer armour is that it covers all external limbs, while sec officer armour only covers the chest and not the arms and legs.

I personally think the Warden's armour should offer a boost to regular armour worn by officers. Tripple so on bullet protection.
--------------------------------------------
Head of Security
Current Values: melee = 30, bullet = 30, laser = 30, energy = 10, bomb = 25, bio = 0, rad = 0

In my opinion the HoS should be hard to kill, he's the hardest and most challenging roles on station to play and he should have good defence.
--------------------------------------------
Ultimantly its hard for me to go into detail on what I want because what everyone wants is all over the place, but we really need to get this discussion rolling in a good direction, instead of being direction less.

Hell, I would suggest we just focus on one role, antag or otherwise, at a time and figure out what we want from them. If so I would ask us to focus on what we want from the Security Officer first.

Never the less, we need to have this discussion or nothing will change.

Your thoughts?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #101178

Armor penetration is a thing now, so that can be factored into balance here quite easily.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #101311

After observing more rounds in game, and playing, I've noticed a trend of people dismissing the HoS armour and even HoS's discarding their armour to wear something else.

I've put up a HoS buff PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10345
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #101330

Wow, unfunny meme lords and greytiders are already going 'lol he buff himself' and 'this is like giving him a roundstart duraaaaasnd'
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Cheimon » #101396

Also, apparently 50 bullet resist makes you 'a juggernaut'. Never mind that bulletproof armour happily worked for months with 80.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by RG4 » #101400

SP I'm the camp of retaining the old armor values before any nerfing. Personally I found thing quite fine and it actually protected security/anyone wearing armor, but it wasn't too effective to make it over powered.

ACTUAL WEAPONS such as ebows/swords,revolvers,lasers, anything that deals large amounts of damage and also have had high chances to KD,KO, and stun when used mainly traitor weapons and melee weapons. While getting lasered while wearing armor didn't kill you outright, it still left you in either crit or near-crit, bullets of course destroyed any security officer because there was so protection for it at at, which is what the bulletproof vest was used for. Eswords,pickaxes,spears,fireaxes, usually dealt damage within the 15+ range, epically when held in both hands increasing damage output(pickaxe excluded). These also have an usually high chance to knock you down after a few swipes or when applied to the head a high chance to knock you. Any competent player with these could dunk any security personal short of the HoS.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #101508

Cheimon wrote:Also, apparently 50 bullet resist makes you 'a juggernaut'. Never mind that bulletproof armour happily worked for months with 80.
Vests and helmet leaves your limbs exposed, where as the HOS outfit is full body.

This is on the top of the fact that the HoS armor is already extremely good overall, with excellent melee resist, while the bulletrpoof stuff is ONLY good against bullets.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Incomptinence » #101513

He's a set of keys to the armoury and bridge he caries lasers, stuns and cuffs by default and taking him out leaves sec floundering and leaderless if he was properly doing his job. He should be tougher he doesn't sit in the middle of brig like the warden he COMES OUT so turning him into a marshmallow barely better than an officer vest is nonsense. If the coat is so scawwy just have no spares on the map.

Why should the captain or hos be better protected? Because killing one or both is pretty much the endgame of nuke and rev.
Last edited by Incomptinence on Sat Jul 04, 2015 3:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by onleavedontatme » #101514

Incomptinence wrote:He's a set of keys to the armoury and bridge he caries lasers, stuns and cuffs by default and taking him out leaves sec floundering and leaderless if he was properly doing his job. He should be tougher he doesn't sit in the middle of brig like the warden he COMES OUT so turning him into a marshmallow barely better than an officer vest is nonsense. If the coat is so scawwy just have no spares on the map.
Man I get people don't like the change and the whole thing may have been misguided (thanks Ikarrus for taking care of flashes) but can we at least discuss it realistically? Effectively doubling your health against melee attacks is not a "marshmallow." Literally take twice the number of hits.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Incomptinence » #101516

That is only an issue because most melee damage is in garbage increments.
You need to hit the hos 20 times because someone decided 10 hits is the baseline of smashing people with most common hard metal objects and anything better than that has gotten balance fussing like forcing circular saws to not fit in pockets or dual wielding or blah de blah de blah.

The esword sucks as anything but a finisher in some goofy slip or somehow else safely stun everybody strategy because it crits in one less hit that THE most common ranged lethal option: lasers. People don't choose to not use the single sword because emergency issue armour and one guy tank it (fuck the spare remove THAT) they do it because against a buck naked crew it still isn't good enough to justify getting close range where all manner of horrible shit could happen to you back for one less hit than a stolen laser.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #101520

Someone's suggestion to make trying to disarm a guy with an e-sword have a chance to basically get hit by it instead was good, since it is this beam of burnng laser death.
That would make it easier to use in melee, without worrying so much about an old greyshirt disarming you so easily.

Having high melee resist for the HoS isn't a big deal, it just means you can't be so easily overpowered by unarmed/lightly armed enemies. Any serious opponent will be shooting him with something, since sec have batons and other shit.
Like honestly, I've rarely (if ever) seen people complain about the HoS, or sec in general having high melee resist. It's their thing, it's well known, and it's completely counterable and avoidable.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by RG4 » #101610

lumipharon wrote:Someone's suggestion to make trying to disarm a guy with an e-sword have a chance to basically get hit by it instead was good, since it is this beam of burnng laser death.
That would make it easier to use in melee, without worrying so much about an old greyshirt disarming you so easily.

Having high melee resist for the HoS isn't a big deal, it just means you can't be so easily overpowered by unarmed/lightly armed enemies. Any serious opponent will be shooting him with something, since sec have batons and other shit.
Like honestly, I've rarely (if ever) seen people complain about the HoS, or sec in general having high melee resist. It's their thing, it's well known, and it's completely counterable and avoidable.
Most people when dunked by security complain about the HoS being too strong and failing to realize, it's the HoS. Armor never,ever, was an issue to any players til a select few started crying because they now noticed armor helped people to a minor degree. Most of sec's armor is completely situational or outright ineffective when combating a specific threats.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #101945

I've adjusted my PR's HoS bullet resist to 40 since I'm not going to sit there for a month arguing over it, also 40 is the same value the Captain's Carapace use's and its a nice middle ground between the older 30 on 60 bullet resist.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Malkevin » #102950

Ikarrus wrote:Security was perfectly fine to play as back when armor was RNG and antagonists were far more overpowered than they are now.
You know, I thought when Skorvold changed the armor from two dice rolls to a fixed straight up damage reduction whilst still using the same armor values that that meant the effectiveness of armor ended up getting increased by a large margin.

So today I decided to dig up the old armor code and make a calculation item that runs that armor_check code 1,000 times to get some 'real world' data (and because I suck at maths), so I could see what the proper percent values.

Code: Select all

/obj/item/device/flash/rng
	name = "RNG test for old armor"
	var/arnumber = 0

/obj/item/device/flash/rng/attack_self()
	var/total = 0
	var/aver = 0
	var/blocked = 0
	var/partblo = 0
	var/pene = 0
	var/tdam = 0
	var/pdam = 0

	arnumber = input("Insert old armor value to calc","Armor Val",arnumber)

	world << "Calculating average for [arnumber]"

	var/i
	for(i=0, i<1000, i++)
		var/absorb = 0
		if(prob(arnumber))
			absorb += 1
		if(prob(arnumber))
			absorb += 1

		if(absorb >= 2)
			blocked += 1
			world << "[i]. Blocked ([blocked])"
			continue
		else if(absorb == 1)
			partblo += 1
			world << "[i]. Absorbed ([partblo])"
			continue
		else
			pene += 1
			world << "[i]. Penetrated ([pene])"

	if(!i)
		world << "Whoops! Something broke!"
		return 0
	else
		total += blocked
		total += partblo/2
		aver = (total / i) * 100
		tdam = (pene*10)+(partblo*5)+(blocked*0)
		pdam = i*10
	world << "----------------------"
	world << "Iterations: [i]"
	world << "Blocked: [blocked] - damage [blocked*0]"
	world << "Absorbed: [partblo] - damage [partblo*5]"
	world << "Penetrated: [pene] - damage [pene*10]"
	world << "Total: [total] - damage [tdam] out of potential [pdam] ([(pdam-tdam)/100]%)"
	world << "Average for Armor val [arnumber]: [aver]%"
The results were surprising.
Turns out... armor values are basically exactly the same as they used to be, the only difference is that damage reduction is persistent so you don't occasionally get fucked over by the RNG letting all the attacks through.

Iterations: 1000
Blocked: 410 - damage 0
Absorbed: 488 - damage 2440
Penetrated: 102 - damage 1020
Total: 654 - damage 3460 out of potential 10000 (65.4%)
Average for Armor val 65: 65.4%

Iterations: 1000
Blocked: 651 - damage 0
Absorbed: 321 - damage 1605
Penetrated: 28 - damage 280
Total: 811.5 - damage 1885 out of potential 10000 (81.15%)
Average for Armor val 80: 81.15%


So any perceived OPness of security (I have no idea where this has come from) has absolutely fuck all to do with armor, because armor in the long run is doing the exact same thing that its done for four years.

Nerfing security is treating the symptoms not the disease.
The problem is that antags have been made weaker, a lot weaker.
You know what used to make me shit my pants as sec? Oldling - new ling is completely pathetic, the only sting they can do against me is cryosting, which is even worse than 'death' sting was.
Revs lost uplinks.
Traitors lost parapens and e-bows (working ebows anyway)
Nuke Ops lost a lot of their round start gear and instead got a load more TCs, which the Ops keep pissing away with Vonderveapons like mechs and borgs - powerful things but if someone's smart enough to grab the counters to those things your investment is suddenly up in smoke and the five of you ill equipped mooks now need to assault the station.

Nerfing armor isn't the solution to making lethals less shit compared to stuns because lethals are always going to be shit because lethals are shit at killing people.
Stop pussy footing around the issue and make stuff that kills people actually good at killing people.


And traitors always had a good weapon against sec, which was the revolver. If people weren't buying it is was because there were other issues with the revolver, like how much the ammo cost.
Last edited by Malkevin on Thu Jul 09, 2015 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Ikarrus » #102951

Sounds good, bring back rev uplinks and ebows.

Changeling is terrible and we've disabled it anyways.

Whatever happened to that PR that increased traitor TC count?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by onleavedontatme » #102957

<mso> I wasn't aware of the change and noticed no difference 68
<mso> I have noticed a negative change to combat 46
<mso> I was aware of the change but noticed no difference 37
<mso> I have noticed a positive change to combat 35

People largely not noticing a difference is about what I expected, final poll results will be in tomorrow.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Malkevin » #102960

Yeah, but how many of those people play roles where they have armor?
I really doubt its any sizable amount given there's only a handful of people that play sec to start with.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Ikarrus » #102961

Still, I think weapon cost could be reduced a little.

I bought the syndicate pistol and it was disappointing how useless yet expensive it was.

Nothing even gibs any more. Not fireballs, not C4.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by onleavedontatme » #102965

Malkevin wrote:Yeah, but how many of those people play roles where they have armor?
I really doubt its any sizable amount given there's only a handful of people that play sec to start with.
Even if they don't play sec very much, most players will at some point be fighting security/nuke ops/ert/deathsquad/anyone wearing a rig suit (or been one of those roles). Even changelings got their armor rebalanced (not that its ever used).
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Falamazeer » #102972

I'd use that changeling armor if you removed the slowdown.
That's literately retarded.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Scones » #102974

Kor wrote:
Malkevin wrote:Yeah, but how many of those people play roles where they have armor?
I really doubt its any sizable amount given there's only a handful of people that play sec to start with.
Even if they don't play sec very much, most players will at some point be fighting security/nuke ops/ert/deathsquad/anyone wearing a rig suit (or been one of those roles). Even changelings got their armor rebalanced (not that its ever used).
Arguably wearing it on a regular basis gives you a much clearer view on how a change affects it's usefulness, as you are both depending on it and watching your health drop

I thought ling armor slowdown was being removed thougj
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by RG4 » #102993

Ikarrus wrote: rev uplinks
Changeling is terrible and we've disabled it anyways.
I've never played a round where Rev heads had uplinks to purchase gear, and I think it's safe to since within having a 4ish year play time with SS13 that it's a good thing.
Old ebows need to be back, nerfing them is retarded and makes it nonviable to use.
Have changeling what it was a few months ago instead of some pansy ass traitor or rather make it old ling without the horrendously overpowered stings such as parasting.
Malkevin wrote:
Ikarrus wrote:Security was perfectly fine to play as back when armor was RNG and antagonists were far more overpowered than they are now.
So any perceived OPness of security (I have no idea where this has come from) has absolutely fuck all to do with armor, because armor in the long run is doing the exact same thing that its done for four years.
Nerfing security is treating the symptoms not the disease.
Nerfing armor isn't the solution to making lethals less shit compared to stuns because lethals are always going to be shit because lethals are shit at killing people.
Stop pussy footing around the issue and make stuff that kills people actually good at killing people.
And traitors always had a good weapon against sec, which was the revolver. If people weren't buying it is was because there were other issues with the revolver, like how much the ammo cost.
Literally Malk proved what I was saying was true.
It was NEVER the armor that was a problem, it was the skill and weapons used.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #103032

Ebows are functionally unchanged if you use hotkeys.

Also syndie pistol is great. It starts with a suppressor by default now, which means you can 4 hit kill people without them even realising they're getting shot.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Skorvold » #103038

I thought when Skorvold changed the armor from two dice rolls to a fixed straight up damage reduction
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by CPTANT » #103039

lumipharon wrote:Ebows are functionally unchanged if you use hotkeys.
Which proofs that the nerf was one based on interface which is stupid. If someone found e-bows to strong he should have decreased the amount of shots it hold/the rate at which it regens. Not add a obnoxious click every shot that favours the use of hotkeys.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #103086

I was behind the TC increase for traitors, and it was closed.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #104894

The Armour Buff was merged recently: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10345

ERT, DS and HoS armour were buffed in some respects.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Amelius » #105146

Not the Captain's?
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Scones » #105248

Amelius wrote:Not the Captain's?
The Captain's was the best armor on the station if you didn't prefer the HoS armor guarding limbs

It's pretty fucking good
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Gun Hog » #105252

In my honest opinion, the Captain needs to have superior armor to the HoS. If the HoS dies, the station can get overrun. If the Captain dies, the station can be nuked. The Captain is the defaco BOSS of the station. Period. Full stop. He is the biggest target on station, for both the disk and guaranteed all-access. The Captain should be harder to kill than the HoS.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by lumipharon » #105255

The HoS's job is to deal with dangers to the station.
The captain's job is to bum around and delegate shit to the heads.

A country's leader doesn't have the heaviest armor they can make, they have beef cakes (that often do have armor) to protect them instead.
Now it's not exactly the perfect comparison, but the point is the HoS should have the best protection because they actually go out of their way to find enemies of the station, wandering around in maint/getting into shoot outs - not the captain.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Scones » #105260

The Captain is the figurehead and the HoS is his right hand man and the long arm of Nanotrasen power. The Captain is not a warrior-king - He is capable, but is best suited to letting the fighters do the fighting.

The Captain does not seek out conflict. The HoS does. The current HoS armor and Cap armor values are fairly similar, the only difference being that the HoS coats cover limbs.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #105290

Apparently the new HOS coat values make it strictly superior to Riot Armor, according to someone who made an issue _-_
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Scones » #105291

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Apparently the new HOS coat values make it strictly superior to Riot Armor, according to someone who made an issue _-_
It has slowdown 1 there is no reason for it not to have like 80 melee resist like it did
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by CPTANT » #105319

Scones wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Apparently the new HOS coat values make it strictly superior to Riot Armor, according to someone who made an issue _-_
It has slowdown 1 there is no reason for it not to have like 80 melee resist like it did
Riot armor wasn't even that useful when it had 80% resist. Slowdown is almost never worth it. MAYBE versus rev it can be useful, but they will probably stunprod and cuff you anyway cause you are now slower then them.
Last edited by CPTANT on Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #105320

Speaking of riot armour, I put up a near full revert PR: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10688

Riot Armour slow down is for another day, unless pressured otherwise.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by TheNightingale » #105338

Scones wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Apparently the new HOS coat values make it strictly superior to Riot Armor, according to someone who made an issue _-_
It has slowdown 1 there is no reason for it not to have like 80 melee resist like it did
Why does the HoS's coat have slowdown? They need to be able to keep up with people to enforce justice.

Disregard!
Last edited by TheNightingale on Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Armour Nerfs

Post by Steelpoint » #105341

The HoS coat does not have slowdown, they were talking about how riot armour has slowdown.
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