/tg/Station 13

I play Security a lot. I play Head of Security a lot. I'd even hazard a guess that I play it more than anyone else on Sybil, especially in the past week.

So let's talk flashbangs.

Flashbangs are not chemical grenades, their effects are hardcoded. Security can use them with no side effects. If we want to be able to buff Security, as much as I loathe to say it, perhaps flashbangs will need some looking into. As it stands, they are a fullscreen deaf/blind/weaken with a decent duration that stops borgs and anyone without helmets/bowmans+glasses. I always carry a full box of these because I know how strong they are. Gangsters or cult in a room? Clutch your fucking eyes and scream in despair, the flashbang train is coming. They can be avoided by lockers, and removing yourself from the line of sight via dense terrain like walls and closed airlocks, which is somewhat hard to pull off, especially in enclosed rooms. They're kind of bullshit, but in my eyes, a necessary evil. If we want to change Security balance, these need to be talked about, so we might as well get it over with. So:

- How can we change flashbangs to have counterplay but also reward intelligent use?
- If flashbangs are reduced from their current state, how much of Security's other equipment will have to be tuned, and why?
- Should flashbangs be relegated to Armory gear?

Some quick thoughts from me on those three questions:
- Make them like Bay flashbangs; the only wearable protection is a riot helmet and they are considered restricted armory gear
- Remove taser click delay remove taser click delay remove taser click delay
- Probably, as currently they're just staple everyman equipment, seeing as even the det has bowmans

Scones wrote:If we want to be able to buff Security

who wants that though

Cheridan wrote:

Scones wrote:If we want to be able to buff Security

who wants that though

The storm of balance changes cannot bring them only down. They are on the verge of ceasing to function if you strip away any more staples without compensation.

Cheridan wrote:

Scones wrote:If we want to be able to buff Security

who wants that though

You have to understand that the power of security diminishes as the round goes on, at the start of the round security is undoubtedly the most powerful force on the station but as the round advances all other departments generally gain power and can well exceed the power that security has in all respects, from man power, equipment and power projection, and this excludes antagonists. No one is saying security need to be god like but we have to look at security from the perspective of how they function for the entire game and not the first half.

Personally on the flashbang issue I would suggest that we remove flashbangs from the Secvender, this would mean only the Armoury and Head of Security have access to flashbangs. Prehaps strip the HoS of all but two flashbangs in his locker so that the only supply of flashbangs is the single box inside the armoury, this would make flashbangs a scarce resource and not something that you have a crap ton of back at base.

Also I think taser click delay needs to go either way, but I digress.

Hopping in a bodybag, locker or anything else like that should prevent the flashbang doing anything to you.

Going prone before the flashbang goes off should lessen the effects drastically, removing the stun and lowering the deafen and blind by a lot. This means anyone anywhere with timely reactions should be able to avoid it with a reasonable amount of skill. Plus when a flashbang flies into my gang HQ I get to scream HIT THE DEEEEECK!

Stickymayhem wrote:Hopping in a bodybag, locker or anything else like that should prevent the flashbang doing anything to you.

Going prone before the flashbang goes off should lessen the effects drastically, removing the stun and lowering the deafen and blind by a lot. This means anyone anywhere with timely reactions should be able to avoid it with a reasonable amount of skill. Plus when a flashbang flies into my gang HQ I get to scream HIT THE DEEEEECK!

But people drop to the floor to minimize their profile and avoid shrapnel/dirt kicked high up, not to magically mitigate the effects of a grenade meant to disable rather than kill

Bags could protect you from the flash, not the bang. I'd rather they not become a backpack anti-sec powergame item. It'd be exceptionally dangerous to get someone out of one, seeing as you have to get in melee range.

My knowledge of flashbangs is limited but looking away is not good enough, there's more to the flashbang than just the blinding flash but the massive pressure that hits you.

I think simply restricting these items would be a better way forward, instead of making them a common but ineffective item I think making them a rare but powerful item might be a good way forward.

Removing the taser delay would mean Security wouldn't use flashbangs as a crutch, because their standard-issue weapon is actually viable now. Security's buffed, flashbangs aren't used as often, everyone's happy.

I'm not so keen on the idea of only riot helmets protecting a flashbang user: HUDsunglasses/bowman's is standard Security gear, and riot helmets aren't fashionable at all. Though moving the flashbangs from Security lockers to another box in the Armory might work. They're good at what they do, and they're needed for it - how else do you expect Security to quell a riot? Judicious harmbatoning?

Scones wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:Hopping in a bodybag, locker or anything else like that should prevent the flashbang doing anything to you.

Going prone before the flashbang goes off should lessen the effects drastically, removing the stun and lowering the deafen and blind by a lot. This means anyone anywhere with timely reactions should be able to avoid it with a reasonable amount of skill. Plus when a flashbang flies into my gang HQ I get to scream HIT THE DEEEEECK!

But people drop to the floor to minimize their profile and avoid shrapnel/dirt kicked high up, not to magically mitigate the effects of a grenade meant to disable rather than kill

Bags could protect you from the flash, not the bang. I'd rather they not become a backpack anti-sec powergame item. It'd be exceptionally dangerous to get someone out of one, seeing as you have to get in melee range.

>Duck down
>Face Floor
>Cover ears
>???
>Profit

Also as always balance>Realism

Firstly your head would be shaken apart from the flashbang.

Secondly it takes time to get on the floor and your hoping the person throwing the nade does not cook the grenade, which in my experience is a common tactic.

Your suggestion would result in a very inconsistent defence mechanism that would leave people more frustrated in that sometimes it works and other times it does not, as well as the fact that dropping to the floor is not a well know mechanic and takes time to type out or execute, both in the players mob actually dropping to the floor as well.

Most people don't cook flashbangs that long. There's usually time to pick it up and throw it back, if you're not panicing and pounding at the walls trying to get away.

Flashbangs are also one use only. So other then the HoS or warden, who have access to a box of them, officers will typically only have 1 or 2 at most - and they're only effective when your target(s) can't run the fuck away. That said, it's hilariously good at rooting out cultists or gangsters, who often clump up in an autism fort.

What I don't like about flashbangs, unlike sonic or flash powder nades, is that it will stun you for the full duration unless you have BOTH eye AND ear protection. It would make more sense if the stun was distributed between the flash and the bang. So if someone had sunglasses, or put down their welding mask, but had no ear protection, they would get deafened, and be stunned for half the time, etc etc.

Flashes on the other hand, are basically ghetto, infinite use flashbangs with no CD or cast time. They also have the added bonus of being ghetto emp protection, since if you get emp'd while carrying one, it triggers the flash's AOE (also burns it out), which will typically fuck the would be attacker. Why these haven't been nerfed through the floor already is anybody's guess.

Flashbangs are an important antimob tool. Buff traitors instead this sort of thing is overly buffing rev to what make traitors have nice day?

Yeah why are we talking about flashbangs when flashes are automatic win buttons that you can spam forever

(On second thought, I think my gripes went a little futher than the scope of a thread about flashbangs)

And as for flashbangs themselves, unless something has changed in the last week or so as I've been absent, sec gear doesn't even slow them down, and as I was told last, hasn't for a bit now, It's based solely on distance, so they are already balanced by the very good chance you might fuck yourself and your target will get up first with more than enough time to get you, which is EXACTLY what happened to me, when I was stripped and robbed by the same ASSISTANT who stole the armory as a non antag.

I really do not see much wrong with flashbangs. They are a crowd control tool that does its job very well. Can't think of another weapon at security's disposal that could fill in the role (once flashes have been nerfed). Getting hit by one usually means ggnore and that's fine. Not everything about security needs to be 'BUT MUH ANTAG'.
Removing the flashbangs from the sec vendor won't do all that much, but annoy the common officer. Security supply crate is worth 10 points and comes with a box full of flashbangs and any officer can open these.

Falamazeer wrote:(On second thought, I think my gripes went a little futher than the scope of a thread about flashbangs)

And as for flashbangs themselves, unless something has changed in the last week or so as I've been absent, sec gear doesn't even slow them down, and as I was told last, hasn't for a bit now, It's based solely on distance, so they are already balanced by the very good chance you might fuck yourself and your target will get up first with more than enough time to get you, which is EXACTLY what happened to me, when I was stripped and robbed by the same ASSISTANT who stole the armory as a non antag.

Flashbangs, currently will only stun a sec officer if the bang goes off directly on the tile you are on. And as far as I know, the distance to the bang doesn't affect how fucked up you get. That last part could be wrong, though.

We need to stop judging all balance by the most competent people in the game we arent fucking starcraft.

People almost never perfectly cook flashbangs

Stickymayhem wrote:We need to stop judging all balance by the most competent people in the game we arent fucking starcraft.

People almost never perfectly cook flashbangs

also cooking is seriously risky with that lag and the huge stun you get when it blows up in your hand.

Flashbangs are just necessary in certain situation, like revs beating officers to death (you don't have enough time to cuff more than one anyway) or when someone barricades them self in a way that makes shooting or batoning impractical.

Flashbangs shouldn't get nerfed.

CPTANT wrote:

Stickymayhem wrote:We need to stop judging all balance by the most competent people in the game we arent fucking starcraft.

People almost never perfectly cook flashbangs

also cooking is seriously risky with that lag and the huge stun you get when it blows up in your hand.

Flashbangs are just necessary in certain situation, like revs beating officers to death (you don't have enough time to cuff more than one anyway) or when someone barricades them self in a way that makes shooting or batoning impractical.

Flashbangs shouldn't get nerfed.

They shouldn't, but there should be less of them so using them on every disturbance becomes unviable. The "two in HoS's locker, a single box in Armory" idea sounds good to me. That way they're a precious resource that you don't want to waste on random troublemakers in case Rev or Cult starts up, as well as being unavailable to regular officers without authorization.

Stickymayhem wrote:We need to stop judging all balance by the most competent people in the game we arent fucking starcraft.

People almost never perfectly cook flashbangs

Yes, but at the same time people rarely have the presence of mind/reaction time to throw back a flashbang that's been thrown at them.

Here's my proposal for a flashbang PR then, this in conjunction with the PR removing the taser firing delay might be a good combo.

- SecVenders no longer hold flashbang grenades.
- HoS Locker now only holds two flashbang grenades.
- The Armoury keeps one box of flashbangs.
- Cost of flashbangs is slightly increased for cargo.

I could consider replacing the flashbangs in the SecVender with Tear Gas Grenades?

Keep HoS box.

First of, many, PR's is up.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10317

Just removes the flashbangs from the secvender.

Steelpoint wrote:My knowledge of flashbangs is limited but looking away is not good enough, there's more to the flashbang than just the blinding flash but the massive pressure that hits you.

I think simply restricting these items would be a better way forward, instead of making them a common but ineffective item I think making them a rare but powerful item might be a good way forward.

I've been near flashbangs in real life. Never been on the wrong end of one though.
Closing your eyes, opening your mouth and covering your ears would greatly, greatly reduce the impact.
Having an action like that where your screen goes dark, you drop what you are carrying and you go deaf until you undo it but makes flashbangs have ~1 second of effect would be a good counterplay. Security would have to cook them right, which means a greater risk, or be, very, very close to the suspect before the bang goes off.

Remove taser delay to make it the more viable ranged stun again, then shorten the range on flashbangs significantly (maybe to like 5x5, this is still pretty decently huge but not the whole screen huge).
Taser delay shouldn't have existed in the first place (thank paprika for that one), and part of the issue with flashbangs is that they simply don't need you to aim and have a huge range AND can't be used against you effectively.

PKPenguin321 wrote:Remove taser delay to make it the more viable ranged stun again, then shorten the range on flashbangs significantly (maybe to like 5x5, this is still pretty decently huge but not the whole screen huge).
Taser delay shouldn't have existed in the first place (thank paprika for that one), and part of the issue with flashbangs is that they simply don't need you to aim and have a huge range AND can't be used against you effectively.

I think you nailed it.

i don't really have a dog in this fight and indeed a flashbang nerf in whatever shape will probably help me out as a frequent borg player (effectively eternal maxrange stun)

but what is wrong with flashbangs? that they effectively stop sec from being mobbed by huge crowds? isn't that the point?

it seems a little weird to say "this thing is effective at what it's supposed to do, nerf"

it's not like it's unbeatable. there are many strategies

run

take them by surprise so they can't get one off

wear protection

does sec really need nerfs anyway, i thought the consensus was that nerfing them was unwarranted?

why are we removing all of security's equipment again

I'd rather not see them gone from the sec vendor, sometimes a warden or a HoS is unavailable/unreliable, when you need to restock your stuff.
The only thing I see wrong with the flashbangs is their insane range of AoE - maybe it's a necessary evil due to lag or fast movement of characters. However, stunning an entire room full of people is VERY strong.

Good luck arresting or killing that entire room though.

It's purely for taking down a room, grabbing a person and getting the fuck outta there before you get lynched, or for well executed raids.

Also the reason the officers can use them so lackadaisically is because the stun overhaul made flashbangs half as powerful making all protection twice as effective. Used to be even with sunglasses helmet and earmuffs you still needed to be 2-3 tiles away from the grenade to remain standing.

Pre-stun nerf, flashbangs still stunned officers. The difference was, it stunned then for half the time of everyone else, even if they were holding it when it went off.
Now though, the biggest risk with flashbangs is getting stunned or disarmed while cooking a flashbang. If that fucker goes off on your tile, you're utterly fucked - no question.

Honestly though flashbangs are fine, since they're one use items. If people put themselves in situations where they can get flashbangs with no way to avoid it, that's honestly their problem - they can be completely negated by LOS'ing them.
The other day, I watched a gang setup their dominator autism fort in maint above the library. after they'd finished building their shit, I immediately said in deadchat that flashbangs would completely and utterly fuck them.
They had a open room with a one wid corridor that led directly off it towards their dominator.
Sure enough, the HoS comes along, throws a flashbang, and stuns all 5-7 gangsters inside, because there was no where for them to run to. The HoS later died because he went in there on his own, so he just got mobbed when the 3 flashbangs he threw wore off, but the point still stands.

If the gangsters had setup a couple of walls, to make blind corners, it would have been easy to LOS the flashbangs, so atleast half of them wouldn't have gotten stunned, and the hos would have died as soon as he tried to walk into the room.
Alternatively, if someone had stunned him as he stood in the door cooking it, he would have been royally fucked either way.

The OTHER point to make, is that if this hos had just run in spamming a flash, he probably could have killed/arrested the entire gang on his own.
Nerf flashes.

that's not really a problem imo. even then i rarely see secofficers use flashbangs "lackadaisically" consider they have one, maybe two on them and that's it. they are used for

dealing with borgs (due to ranged nature and high range)

dealing with huge crowds of greytiders/revs/cult (nonconstruct)

i guess i don't get where this "nerf flashbang" sentiment is coming from. where's the outcry? surely if they were broken there would be a wide consensus to fix it somehow. i'm not getting the feeling there is one at all. certainly i've never ever seen anyone in OOC complain about how fucking broken those evil flashbangs are.

i say leave 'em as they are. they're only deployed when needed and they function about as they should.

steelpoint and company are trying to fix a problem that doesn't exist.

Flashbangs are fine. They're necessary in a lot of situations and are one of the few things in the game that have good actual counterplay options.

Area flashing is fucked up though, nerf that shit.

When have flashbangs ever been any issue?
Seriously name one time they've ever been bad.
You can't.
They never were.
Stop being mini-paps/persons fixing non-issues is bad and you should feel bad, even you SP.

Just make flashbang stun distribute stuns based on ear/eye protection, instead of both. Remove taser delay and revert flashes back to being a mini stun or make them burn out much quicker.

Between this entire thread and all of github:

I have found exactly ONE person in favor of this that isn't scones or steelpoint

PKPenguin321 commented 23 hours ago

This is good for now, but if flashbangs ever get a direct nerf then this should be reverted

And it's this guy, who in this thread seems to be more in line with morphing it to be more risky to the officer and thus less bullshit.


So there are three schools of thought, those who think flashbangs should be left alone, those who think they should be nerfed to be more risky, and scones and steelpoint who thinks they should be hidden.

Steelpoints reaction? Ignore it, and be sure to remove the ones in the lockers too, before telling me to go to the feedback thread
This boils down to "Join github so I can ignore you in two places" and despite outcry, I expect to see this go through.

It's a bogus unwanted nerf, by two guys who specifically play HoS over sec officer to the point where steelpoint wasn't even aware of the locker flashbangs, and the other has HoS in their signature, so the nerf won't even affect them in their day to day buisness, but speaking out as someone who will be affected 75% of my rounds, this needs to go. Not get bullied through, I've done everything every snide coder has ever told me to do about changes I don't like, I've said so in feedback, and I've said so in github, And if it's needed I'll figure out how to put up a snide PR that reverts yours right next to it, In essence "Learn2code" albeit for a single shitty thing.

To be fair I think the flashbangs in the locker was a more recent thing, might even be the reason why people started to talk more about flashbangs since there are more of them.

Also don't presume I'm ignoring feedback, I doubt the PR will be merged while there's a lot of conversation going on nor am I set straight into getting the PR merged.

I'll wait a day for more discussion before doing anything else with the PR.

You are mistaken, Locker flashbangs have been around as long as lockers and flashbangs.
As far back as my memory goes, though I'd believe it if you told me it wasn't like that on uterus.

So far there is literately not one person who wants this, that isn't you and the OP.

Re-direct your efforts to morph them to include security in their blast, that's nerf enough, Hiding them is too far.

Stickymayhem wrote:We need to stop judging all balance by the most competent people in the game we arent fucking starcraft.

People almost never perfectly cook flashbangs

This sums up my thoughts on this issue and countless others.

A vast majority of shit changes have been justified on grounds that ignore this.

"HUH YEA OF COURSE MACROBOMBS ARE BALANCED, A GOOD TRAITOR CAN JUST RIP THE CORE OUT OF A SYNDIEBOMB, ATTACH SIGNALLER + C4 TO THE CORE, AND THEN SELF-SURGERY THE BOMB INTO THEIR CHEST CHAVITY WHILE KEEPING THEIR PDA SIGNALLER OPEN.

IT'S SO SIMPLE, AND SINCE WE DONT HAVE A PROBLEM WITH PLAYERS DOING THIS, WHY WOULD THEY ABUSE MACROBOMBS?

Flashbangs are fine and at this point they play such a crucial role in power balance that nobody should even be thinking about touching it until a whole myriad of other issues are addressed.

I had a big argument about this in coderbus but my view is that the balance of every single game mode depends entirely on the skill of the players who end up in each role, and it's very hard to balance that well.

According to raharaz it's over, PR is do not merge and the new consensus is that sec doesn't need buffs or nerfs.

Does this mean we're sticking with abusable flashes that aren't good at the job they are meant to do? (Excessive confusion means people can't go away even if they wanted to, making it functionally just a toy to fuck with people with via spam) And having one of the more common items be nearly as useful as the emp rifle against borgs?

And bad taser delay?

And too safe flashbangs?

Please don't let a bad attempt at gutting the department neutralize a lot of valid points, it needs re-worked, not directly gimped or hidden or removed.

I'm fine either way, so don't think I'm throwing my support in either direction. What I was really saying with this thread was that if people were going to force tradeoffs for sec changes, than I wouldn't mind flashbangs being tweaked.

I play HoS over Officer. Is it an issue? Job is more interesting to me.

I think Razharas should probably heavily reconsider what he said if that is the case, because I want that nodelay taser. And krav maga. Same guy who merged the armor changes mid-discussion, hilariously enough.

I'm totally fine with a tweak, most everyone in this thread/github offered or asked for some sort of tweak that wasn't removal.
If this is the case, it's taking your ball and going home, and it's childesh, like hiding shit code in the middle of a wanted list of PRs and tying the much wanted taser fix and the already completed flash autoflash fix to it is like lashing a race horse to a retarded cow in a football helmet.

<Scones> Razharas I heard you evidently took a poll in the IRC about balance and have 'come to the conclusion' that sec does not need changes
<Scones> please explain
<Razharas> I aksed here if sec needs a nerf
<Razharas> Then 2 hours of arguing later we came to nothing
<Razharas> But i felt it didnt
<Scones> Is this going to be representative in regards to things getting merged?
<Razharas> SO yeah
<Razharas> Things are getting merged based on maintainers or headcoders view of them
<Razharas> If maintaner choose to make a poll he can use the results
<Razharas> He is in no way obliged though
<Razharas> And can even ignore the result of poll afterwards

I guess that means there is still hope on the taser PR and this is not a conclusion from the entire upper level of coderbus.

So this only didn't happen because based taser delay is our lord and saviour that will "balance" all combat and make RP flow freely from every airlock just give it more time!

Even when they make the right decision it is for all the wrong reasons broken clocks I swear.

Flashbangs have been fine since they were made to screw you over if they went off in your hand.


Actually the only problem with them now thats a recent thing was moving the BANG protection from helmets to bowman headsets, helmets are alot more common than a special snowflake headset that got added because people wanted to wear special snowflake hats.

don't see why helmets AND bowmans can't give sound protection.

Bowmans are awesome and tacticool, but helmets need to be BANGprotect also

Bowman's don't cover both ears, they shouldn't give BANG protection.

If you want sec's HEADSET to offer BANG protection, make it work like engineering's earmuffs.
BANG protection, but can't hear shit (but the radio).

Bowmans offering Bang protection is a relic of the sec sprite war, essentially some of us wanted to replace secs helmet with a beret, so the bowman was given the fbang protection.