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Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:27 am
by oranges
You can no only be revived up to a max of 5 minutes, and you take brain damage after 2.5
Let me know what you think
Also another thought I had was maybe to reduced the brain damage timer down to 1 minute - so you can still revive at 5 but they're going to need some serious tlc
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:29 am
by Scones
I really like medbay making minimal use of cloning
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:33 am
by oranges
Personally I feel that getting back into the round as a full human is too easy
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 12:46 am
by Shadowlight213
Good change, I'm sick of scientists refusing to be cloned, screaming in deadchat, "DEFIB ME! I don't want to lose my implants! ADMINS! TELL THAT MORON TO DEFIB ME!!!!!"
Doubt this will help, but I at least can say that it took too long.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:02 am
by onleavedontatme
oranges wrote:Personally I feel that getting back into the round as a full human is too easy
We have to make the average round last less time in that case, or add more reliable ways to come back, having people sit out for 2 hours causes misery
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:04 am
by lumipharon
I think defibbing is way too easy as it stands, but not so much because of the time, but due to the fact that patches work on corpses.
If patches didn't work, then defibs would be fine, as they would (as originally intended) only work on people that have gone into crit an died from suffocation.
Currently, you can pull a corpse out of space with 400 damage, and heal it with patches to defib. It's just silly.
Kor wrote:We have to make the average round last less time in that case, or add more reliable ways to come back, having people sit out for 2 hours causes misery
Most rounds don't last 2 hours anyway, and is it that much of a big deal to just like, do something else for an hour?
Making it easy or reliable to get back into the round is precisely what kills any sense of fear or paranoia, since there is nothing really at stake when it comes to dying.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:16 am
by oranges
Kor wrote:oranges wrote:Personally I feel that getting back into the round as a full human is too easy
We have to make the average round last less time in that case, or add more reliable ways to come back, having people sit out for 2 hours causes misery
Drones, borgs or pod people, my personal opinion is you shouldn't be able to come back as a full human so that death has a bit more meaning, but you still don't sit the round out.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 1:21 am
by Falamazeer
This is a fine addition.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 3:53 am
by Shaps-cloud
lumipharon wrote:I think defibbing is way too easy as it stands, but not so much because of the time, but due to the fact that patches work on corpses.
If patches didn't work, then defibs would be fine, as they would (as originally intended) only work on people that have gone into crit an died from suffocation.
Currently, you can pull a corpse out of space with 400 damage, and heal it with patches to defib. It's just silly.
Kor wrote:We have to make the average round last less time in that case, or add more reliable ways to come back, having people sit out for 2 hours causes misery
Most rounds don't last 2 hours anyway, and is it that much of a big deal to just like, do something else for an hour?
Making it easy or reliable to get back into the round is precisely what kills any sense of fear or paranoia, since there is nothing really at stake when it comes to dying.
For patches to be useful in helping revive patients, you have to have to have the patient already in medbay with a defib (unless a doctor or the CMO is packing patches and a defib), a doctor to actually get the meds from the vendors or a chemist to pump out the meds, and a fair amount of time to apply them all and actually defib them, PLUS the fact that you still have to treat them once they're alive again. 9/10 times when someone is brought back to defibbable with patches and then revived, they could have been cloned anyway as part of a much longer and more tedious process. And even then, if someone's at 400 brute damage, that'd take 5 brute patches to bring them back to defibbable, which is an entire vendors worth of patches
Being able to get patients in and out of medbay quick is what separates the good doctor from the bad ones, and making defibs harder to use will do nothing but push medbay closer to "put person in pod and hit button"
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:41 am
by Tokiko2
What exactly is this change supposed to improve? I think that the issue with defibs is the previously mentioned patch bug that allows doctors to heal badly damaged bodies and even husks into a state that allows them to be defibbed again. Someone finding a slighty damaged corpse and reviving it after 5 minutes is a non issue.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:24 am
by lumipharon
Shaps wrote:For patches to be useful in helping revive patients, you have to have to have the patient already in medbay with a defib (unless a doctor or the CMO is packing patches and a defib), a doctor to actually get the meds from the vendors or a chemist to pump out the meds, and a fair amount of time to apply them all and actually defib them, PLUS the fact that you still have to treat them once they're alive again. 9/10 times when someone is brought back to defibbable with patches and then revived, they could have been cloned anyway as part of a much longer and more tedious process. And even then, if someone's at 400 brute damage, that'd take 5 brute patches to bring them back to defibbable, which is an entire vendors worth of patches
Being able to get patients in and out of medbay quick is what separates the good doctor from the bad ones, and making defibs harder to use will do nothing but push medbay closer to "put person in pod and hit button"
And it takes precisely 5 minutes for a chemist to pump out 30+ patches at the start of the round.
It then takes 10-20 seconds to patch the corpse up (patching corpses from space etc are slow and impractical, it was more the point that it being even possible is rediculous), then defib. After that all the unprocessed chems from the patchs will fully heal them no problem after some epi in the sleeper, barring toxin damage.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:25 am
by Shaps-cloud
Well if a doctor is willing to go the extra step beyond "stick them in the cloning pod and fuck off", why not let them? If the body is already in medbay chances are it'll get revived anyway, taking away patching dead bodies just takes away stuff for doctors to do and makes the revivee wait longer
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:33 am
by oranges
My god it's neck and neck
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 7:54 am
by iamgoofball
Tokiko2 wrote:I think that the issue with defibs is the previously mentioned patch bug
Not a bug, it's intentional.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:24 pm
by Lumbermancer
I would cut it even more than in half, if you will make defibs portable i.e. wearable in belt slot. You could make CMO's defib keep the old time instead.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 4:27 pm
by CPTANT
patches on corpses is the issue. It feels stupid that completely fried husks get some band aids get defibbed and happily walk around again.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:53 pm
by Oldman Robustin
Tokiko2 wrote:What exactly is this change supposed to improve? I think that the issue with defibs is the previously mentioned patch bug that allows doctors to heal badly damaged bodies and even husks into a state that allows them to be defibbed again. Someone finding a slighty damaged corpse and reviving it after 5 minutes is a non issue.
I don't like that I have to sit around kicking a corpse for a while to make sure it stays dead. 10 minutes is obscene for insta-revive no-consequences death.
Defibs do their job extremely well. The problem is there job is to make sure death has almost no consequences, in a game where death as a meaningful consequence is the driving force behind many of the gametypes. They need to serve a niche role, I would honestly go with even slightly shorter times (2 brain-4 gotta clone), and make it clear that defibs are only for triage. They should punish the careless or wanton acts of murder, not serve as a instant cloning vat.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 5:59 pm
by Scones
10 minutes? I thought it was already at 5.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:09 pm
by TheNightingale
How about this? Raise the damage limit to, say, 150 (meaning you have to hit someone a few times after critting them to stop defibs working)... but stop patches working on dead bodies.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:53 pm
by Cheimon
As lots of people have said, being revived in 10 minutes isn't exactly a huge problem.
What is a huge problem is that because you can use patches to heal corpses, defib is preferable to the cloner in 90% of all situations (patching really doesn't take any longer than healing a living person: less, even, because corpses don't move around so much). Patches are freely available in the medivends and med storage area, and if you've somehow run out of those the chemist has probably made some: you do run out, but the point is that they're really common and it's really easy to heal a corpse with them if you're a medical doctor. Which is bullshit and why the defib is seeing more use than it ought to.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:31 pm
by JackHunt
It really doesn't make sense that reagents metabolize while the mob is dead either.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:37 pm
by iamgoofball
iamgoofball wrote:Tokiko2 wrote:I think that the issue with defibs is the previously mentioned patch bug
Not a bug, it's intentional.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:39 pm
by TheNightingale
Reagents don't metabolise when a mob is dead. Only the initial patch heal does - patches heal twice: once when applied (healing for the value of the chemical's units, I think), and over time until the reagent runs out.
It's intentional, so it's a feature... but why is it a feature? It makes defibrillators remarkably powerful.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 8:39 pm
by Lumbermancer
JackHunt wrote:It really doesn't make sense that reagents metabolize while the mob is dead either.
We can clone people, it doesn't really make sense either.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:03 am
by newfren
TheNightingale wrote:How about this? Raise the damage limit to, say, 150 (meaning you have to hit someone a few times after critting them to stop defibs working)... but stop patches working on dead bodies.
Reasonably certain that the damage limit is at around 180 as is right now.
I'm against patches not working on corpses - I am literally repairing your flesh here so you won't fall apart/into shock again after I defib you, and it makes for more interesting play than: Dead guy --> Try to Defib --> Try to clone --> Morgue.
It also rewards doctors for building up a knowledge base and preparing themselves with supplies from chemistry by speeding up the turn-around time of patients, compared to random greyshirts who drag every corpse directly to cloning, leaving doctors with 6 dead bodies lined up on the beds outside genetics and no clue how they got there.
I was under the impression that the defib timer was already 5 minutes long - if it isn't, shortening it to this would be fine. I'm also definitely for there being brain damage the longer a corpse is dead - it adds a bit more interaction with the person you're defibbing and rewards doctors who plan ahead with manitol or chemists who manitol the cryo tubes.
Another couple of ideas to nerf the defib if it's so important that it be nerfed (I'm not so concerned about it to be honest) - remove one of the roundstart defibs from med storage or make the current defibs start with smaller batteries + a screwdriver somewhere in medbay (maybe with the crowbar on the table of random shit below chemistry) so that you're more likely going to have to charge the defib's batteries at some point. Removing a defib makes it more possible to build up a queue of bodies that might cause some of them to tick over their 5 minute timer, whereas reducing batteries doesn't leave this problem but hey, maybe your defib's going to be charging when you need to use it. It also makes the CMO more important for their defib.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 5:48 am
by Falamazeer
Less defibs is bad, Hell sometime you can't even find one because the one that SHOULD ALWAYS BE BY CRYO!!!!!1!!!ONEONE2111~! is missing.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 1:06 pm
by Actionb
Patches shouldn't be able to 'glue' somebody together after they have spent 10 minutes in space/fire or their head has turned into a pulp by repeated smacking. Give patches a limit to which they can still heal a body - but beyond that damage threshold, it's cloning time for you. It feels really cheesy to be able to knit anybody back together, replacing vital organs and smashed limbs with a few mundane patches. On that note... why don't bruise & burn packs work on the dead?
Reducing the defib time window ontop of unfucking patches sounds like good idea. Cloning is barely used anymore because instant-revive is a thing, yet cloning should still be the #1 method of getting back into the game. Cloning takes time and has limited capacity, making dying in the first place undesirable. 'BUT CLONING TAKES FOREVER' - shit son, be lucky you're alive. And next time, be more paranoid since that's what the game is all about.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Fri Jul 03, 2015 4:31 pm
by Cheimon
iamgoofball wrote:iamgoofball wrote:Tokiko2 wrote:I think that the issue with defibs is the previously mentioned patch bug
Not a bug, it's intentional.
Why is that intentional? What benefit does that serve? It's an unnecessary boost to what are already pretty powerful medicines.
Re: Cut defib times in half
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2015 8:56 am
by oranges
People seem pretty split on this one, so I'll close the PR for now