/tg/Station 13

The most boring and yet most played rounds are traitor and changeling. Why do we have to suffer through even more of that in half broken stations where society has broken down? It is just painful, most jobs got nothing worthwhile to do anymore, blob/wiz is dead and heads won't call the shuttle because the station is not destroyed enough and they fear the boink. Yet at that point the antag is killed, half the crew is ei'nathed and salting up ghostsay and are forced to wait even longer for a new round.

yeah wizard and blob rounds usually have a very high casualty count. Its just not fun for a round to go on after half the crew has been ei'nath'ed.

If your problem is with wiz biz and blob mulliganing, just beg admins to not let it mulligan on wiz biz.

They get a prompt when wizards/the blobs die to cancel the mulligan and end the round.

Instead of removing mulligan from everything because of 2 gamemodes where it doesn't work when it works great in the other 10 because of the "all or nothing" mentality, just bug the admins to use the button.

Also, if you're dead, just keep the game minimized and just go play a different game/server while waiting. There, you're not salting up deadchat and whining, and you're doing something productive while waiting for the new round. Just tab back when you hear the bangin' donks.

I am sorry, in which other gamemode does mulligan improve the game in your opinion?

Or you know just set the station destroyed/casualty limit lower for those two round types.

hanshansenhansson wrote:I am sorry, in which other gamemode does mulligan improve the game in your opinion?

In my opinion, all of them. But you don't agree with that.

When a cult gets outed and killed in 20 minutes, if we removed mulligan, enjoy extended for the next 90 minutes.
When the abductors get caught and murdered, if we removed mulligan, enjoy extended for the next 90 minutes.
When the changelings get caught and incinerated because they were unrobust skrubs 20 minutes in, if we removed mulligan, enjoy extended for the next 90 minutes.

Saegrimr wrote:Or you know just set the station destroyed/casualty limit lower for those two round types.

There's also this. Mulligan has a lot of knobs we can tweak.

I know "ALL OR NOTHING REMOVE IT REMOVE IT REMOVE IT" is the primary mentality when it comes to features you dislike an aspect of is the norm, but maybe it shouldn't be?

Maybe because it is not visible in those other modes? I think I never saw a cult completely die off, there is always that one braindead botanist hiding in his backroom. Abductors is not even a game mode. And mulligan for changelings is just more of the same as well, you do not really notice that. But no, can't be, I am clearly the usual retarded player who doesn't understand the great vision you have for the game.

I simply enjoy shorter rounds, with more action instead of having every round forced to end with sneaky-beaky antags boring the station to braindeath.

I see cults die off all the time.

Abductors is a gamemode. It is it's own gamemode in the code. It's just not in rotation.

Changeling shouldn't be mulliganing into a more boring roundtype, it should be going into a better one.

Mulligans will work a lot better once datum based antags is done, which is why I stopped working on mulligans. That said for the rare instances where it's actually invoked I think it works well enough. Except maybe in malf, since by definition a lot of malf rounds can end with a dead AI who hasn't killed a ton of people but HAS sabotaged things to the point where the shuttle will be called anyways. The ability to remove mulliganing on specific game modes is already something that can be done.

That said I left so many things for people to tweak if they weren't happy with the system. https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Guide_to_Mulligans

iamgoofball wrote:
Also, if you're dead, just keep the game minimized and just go play a different game/server while waiting. There, you're not salting up deadchat and whining, and you're doing something productive while waiting for the new round. Just tab back when you hear the bangin' donks.

People whining in deadchat?

Oh nooooo

hanshansenhansson wrote:The most boring and yet most played rounds are traitor.

stopped reading here

datum antags are going to be better, just disable mulligan

i have yet to see it make a round 'better'

iirc, mulligan is intended to make rounds where the antag fucks up really early on (like the wizard accidentally teleporting into the singularity, the blob pops in the bar where everyone has welders, the malf AI saying something traitory over the radio instead of binary chat and getting busted two minutes in) not immediately restart five minutes in. if the station's been fucked and the antags put up a serious fight before dying, the round is supposed to end right there.

the problem is not mulligan, but the admins employing it in the wrong scenarios.

admins are not employing it, it's on by default

maybe those rounds should just end

and restart

instead of penalizing the crew for mobilizing against a larger threat

Some of the little problems with mulligan implementation have been with player attitude, mostly that command players say "we've killed the threat, time to go home!" even if the station is fine. These are the rounds people complain about when they talk about mulligans, where things seem arbitrarily extended for an extra 15 minutes where nothing happens. That's because you aren't giving the traitors any time to react. I know it can be hard to get excited about a traitor and/or ling mulligan, but the answer to your prayers are coming. Until then just try to enjoy it for what it is.

Also badmins should halt mulligans and make their own threats more, I almost never see it, but I left that door open for a reason.

Scones wrote:admins are not employing it, it's on by default

maybe those rounds should just end

and restart

instead of penalizing the crew for mobilizing against a larger threat

I agree.

Who the fuck is voting "Yes I love having 4 traitors spawn after I kill the AI so we can drag the round out for another 45 minutes without anything notable happening".

With the odds being said four traitors won't do anything forever.

If the crew defeats a major antagonist like the AI or a Wizard then the round should end, instead of plugging the round onto life support and demanding everyone enjoys the remaining hour of their life.

Also, telling people to not play the game in response to criticism of said game is shit advice.

I'm not telling you to not play the game and you fucking know it, so don't give me that "DONT TELL US TO NOT PLAY THE GAME" bullshit.

I'm telling you that when you are dead and have no way to interact with the game aside from commenting on it, you should consider doing something else for the at most 30 minutes left in the round. Go make some food, go for a walk, go buy a big mac, do something.

There's tons of other SS13 servers you can stop in at temporarily if you can't handle 30 minutes without 2d spaceman, and if you want tg in specific go to basil/sybil when you die on sybil/basil.

Steelpoint wrote:With the odds being said four traitors won't do anything forever.

If the crew defeats a major antagonist like the AI or a Wizard then the round should end, instead of plugging the round onto life support and demanding everyone enjoys the remaining hour of their life.

Also, telling people to not play the game in response to criticism of said game is shit advice.

this, unless something happens like the wizard fireballing himself and dying within three seconds of warping onto the station, then a mulligan would be okay

Mulligan is really good on lowpop though. Atleast leave it enabled on Basil. Having the only roundstart antagonist die and then have an eventless round for 3 hours was terrible. The upcoming threat system is probably going to be even better for these populations.

iamgoofball wrote:I'm not telling you to not play the game and you fucking know it, so don't give me that "DONT TELL US TO NOT PLAY THE GAME" bullshit.

I'm telling you that when you are dead and have no way to interact with the game aside from commenting on it, you should consider doing something else for the at most 30 minutes left in the round. Go make some food, go for a walk, go buy a big mac, do something.

There's tons of other SS13 servers you can stop in at temporarily if you can't handle 30 minutes without 2d spaceman, and if you want tg in specific go to basil/sybil when you die on sybil/basil.

Do you even comprehend what's coming out of your mouth most of the time?

I have never loathed mulligan because "I ded plz restart".

I (and many others) loathe is because we've busted our asses to prevail over a powerful antag, only to realize we're still stuck on station for 15+ minutes while the game proceeds to add 4 antags who will either:

1) Use the co-operation and teamwork fostered by a fight against a powerful enemy and punish everyone for it (i.e. handing out expanded access during blob/wiz/malf).

2) Not even notice, or notice and proceed to do nothing that could be classified as "antagonistic".

People already agree that traitor is in awful shape right now, why would plopping a tiny number of traitors onto the station on typically high-pop rounds do anything to ENHANCE the round? Mulligan is basically extended right now, my experience has been that 25% of the "new" traitors will even take hostile equipment and use it. Last time I experienced mulligan, one guy didn't use any TC and didn't do anything antagonistic, two guys traded documents and then didn't do anything hostile until the shuttle was landing at centcom, and one guy immediately ran down the hall using throwing stars on random crew and was dead within a minute.

I haven't seen a single convincing argument for how tossing 4 traitors into a 60 person game, thus forcing the crew to either sit out the refuel timer while playing extended or throwing us into the age old shitty argument, "DO WE NEED A REAL EMERGENCY TO JUSTIFY CALLING THE SHUTTLE?" in which case we get an hour of extended instead.

The only pro-mulligan arguments I'm seeing here are "wait for datum antags!". But I still fail to see how throwing in a greater variety of antags in mulligan is superior to an immediate round-end. How is forcing the crew to deal with all-access cult/gangs/whatever after triumphantly crushing the AI a superior round than just ending it with the AI death and letting us fight out gangs/cult/whatever in a fresh round where nobody is going to be punished for exhibiting the tiny amount of teamwork that we already scarcely see on this server.

The key word in your argument is "forcing." No one is forcing you to do shit. It's a game.

bandit wrote:The key word in your argument is "forcing." No one is forcing you to do shit. It's a game.

I often play head roles. I've been threatened by admins for going AFK in those roles before.

Yes I'm kinda forced to stick around much of the time. Plus we're talking about this feature in terms of its costs/benefits to the overall health of the game. Saying "well if its bad you can leave" would apply to even the most toxic of changes.

One of the overarching goals here is to makes it so the progress of the round is interesting enough that people don't immediately want to call the shuttle the second it's even marginally justified. Mulligans were one such idea to keep things interesting but what people have shown me is that waiting for new antags after predictable events isn't interesting or something many of them are willing to tolerate. Mulligan under antag datums would be less "spawn new threat if entire old threat is dead and gone" and more "spawn more threats if much of the old threats are dead, captured, or otherwise unlikely to be interesting". It would also just be something that could just happen at any given moment, and be less predictable. I get that game flow is important to people.

May I add that mulligan doesn't force recall? Therefore you can just call the shuttle or something after the crew wrecked the threats 5 minutes in. It isn't forcing you to stay on station at all. It also doesn't kick in if over 70% of the crew is dead or after 60 minutes. Those parameters seem fine to me.

I personally tend to stop it from spawning antags when it actually does kick in, simply because it seems to only spawn lings and traitors most of the time. Which is understandable. Just imagine the butthurt if revs spawned after a blob was killed. I think it is good to keep around in case admins aren't around. Keeps the rounds interesting.

All we need to do is make the mulligan choose when to add antags based on round info.

We can rename it to the tensioner, it will be fun

Changelings are boring, and constitute one of the worst game modes, in my opinion. Traitor mode is fine in moderation. My issue with the mulligan system is that it indeed spawns mostly traitors and changelings. We need more round-types added! People keep asking for more lethal rounds, and Changeling just does not cut it. For single antagonist types, add some new parameters to attempt to replace poor antagonist players!

Example, for Wizard, let there be a chance of sending another Wizard if the first one gets killed quickly, and has NOT cast a "summon" spell. A blob that was quickly dispatched and is determined to do less than 5% station damage could have a chance to 'infect' another live crew member who (thanks to the greatly increased cooperation and access) has a greater choice of locations to pop, at the risk of a ready crew. For antagonist types that do not support replacement, Nuclear Emergency and AI Malfunction game modes could generate other types of antagonist. Gang mode could simply spawn another gang, and Revolution could potentially add more Revs.

Gun Hog wrote:Changelings are boring, and constitute one of the worst game modes, in my opinion. Traitor mode is fine in moderation. My issue with the mulligan system is that it indeed spawns mostly traitors and changelings. We need more round-types added! People keep asking for more lethal rounds, and Changeling just does not cut it. For single antagonist types, add some new parameters to attempt to replace poor antagonist players!

Example, for Wizard, let there be a chance of sending another Wizard if the first one gets killed quickly, and has NOT cast a "summon" spell. A blob that was quickly dispatched and is determined to do less than 5% station damage could have a chance to 'infect' another live crew member who (thanks to the greatly increased cooperation and access) has a greater choice of locations to pop, at the risk of a ready crew. For antagonist types that do not support replacement, Nuclear Emergency and AI Malfunction game modes could generate other types of antagonist. Gang mode could simply spawn another gang, and Revolution could potentially add more Revs.

This is dumb.

So Security is super efficient, deals with a large portion of the Revs/Gangs so your solution is to throw more at them and let the dudes that failed have another try?

Ok so are you going to led dead Sec officers respawn too?

In my opinion Mulligan only has a place in rounds that wouldn't end with the death of the main antagonist anyway.

The reasoning behind mulligan is that rounds that have their antagonists killed shouldn't drag on without anything happening. In modes such as wizard,blob and malf it is EXACTLY causing that to happen. I see no reason to not just end a round with the death of the wiz/blob/ai. Round restarts, new gamemode, new antagonists, everyone gets to play again, everyone happy.

I suspect if you omitted votes from anyone who doesn't regularly play security this poll would look a lot different.

There's nothing redeeming about mulligan for security.

But if you're in one of the vastly more populated fluff roles then you want the round to drag on so you can finish mutating blue space tomatoes/making giant bananas/making your corgi farm/generating your golem army/etc.

Also CPTANT nailed it. Mulligan should be there to ENHANCE rounds by adding roles that will antagonize the crew, produce conflict, etc... but using my highly sophisticated and proprietary measurement of FUN/MINUTE, you would see that having one short wizard round and one medium-length traitor round produces much higher FUN/MINUTE figures than one long round with a failure of a wizard that morphs into 4 failure traitors who do jack-all to actually antagonize anything.

ThatSlyFox wrote:Therefore you can just call the shuttle or something after the crew wrecked the threats 5 minutes in.

That would get me boinked

Just use the fucking gateway or god forbid do admin events beyond "heres some more shit to fuck the station up"

Gateway isn't fun.

Scott wrote:Gateway isn't fun.

So develop the feature.

Flesh it out.

Add new science possibilities on a remote station through the gateway once you salvage it and clear it out for example.

hanshansenhansson wrote:

ThatSlyFox wrote:Therefore you can just call the shuttle or something after the crew wrecked the threats 5 minutes in.

That would get me boinked

Sure, if you force called it when no one else wanted to leave. Like lasering the consoles and stuff.

I do not think we will ever come to an agreement for what the average round should be. We have essentially two camps here: Roles that rely on fast, active conflict to be fun (Security, Medical Doctor, Engineering, etc) whereas roles that were built on progression mechanics (Science, Botany, Virology, Mining, etc) are only fun if the rewards of progression (or just plain RNG) can be realized. More lethal, short rounds favor Security and Medical players as Sec has antagonists to hunt, Engineering has something to fix and doctors have people to heal and revive. Progression roles suffer from this state of things, as the round ends without them reaping their late-round rewards.

On the other end, longer rounds allow progression based roles to flourish, and have their time invested into the round pay off. Miners can drop off the minerals, Science can produce their toys and various monsters, Genetics can hand out powers, the heal virus the virologist spent an hour mixing can be distributed, people drop by the chef for food, etc. Conflict based roles suffer here, as they are either dead or bored from having little to do.

To be fair Gun Hog most of our content is based around it taking thirty minutes to complete. Anything past that is really just repetition, building more high tech equipment and waiting for something to happen.

Only job that might take you more than 30 minutes is genetics, simply because of the retarded RNG involved. Everything else is like 20 minutes or less. Let's stop pretending the other jobs take a long time gun hog.

No admin is going to bwoink you for calling the shuttle once the big antag is dead. If they do, then they are silly.
Maybe the mulligan limits should be make stricter. Decrease the max time to 20 minutes from 30, and up the crew percentage to 80 or so.

This is still so annoying.

I am getting a bit tired of having 15 extra minutes in which nothing happens tacked to each round because when the big antag is dead people WILL call the shuttle.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I often play head roles. I've been threatened by admins for going AFK in those roles before.

I would seriously hope this isn't the case, for everyone's sake. Real life takes precedent over the game, and anything short of going-braindead-every-time-you-don't-get-antag, people should be allowed to do as they please when it comes to opting in or out of the game. The same old rule of "adminhelp if it's a role important to the round" applies, but if anyone is forcing your hand, I would advocate administrative complaints.

edit: oops, thread is a necro from earlier this month. never mind...

I've seen good mulligan rounds before. One was when I died as wizard early on due to suckage and the antimov AI proceeded to obliterate the station and the round type kinda became malf

Blob can be recovered from if one blob doesn't actually destroy corpses.

Hypothetically you could transplant/borg the ei nath brains.

Worst would probably construct cult or wiz since once they fail just a bunch of dust and skeletons remain.

For all these though science could still shit drones, golems and synthbrains if they so desire. Nicer scientists please.

Or just let mulligan make the better types of antags. Hell why are rare event threats like specters, abductors and aliens not plugged into the system?

Or why not let it make established crew turn into traitors instead of expecting them to piece together a plan on a somewhat resource depleted station where everyone else had a head start.