The time has come, nerf magic missile

[Oldman Robustin]

MM has always been a crucial spell for any combat wizard and it's always been teetering on the line between "acceptably OP" (aka enough for 1 wizard to survive against dozens of bloodthirsty crew) and "bullshit win button".

With the stun nerfs, the new balance has pushed MM firmly into the "bullshit" category. Before if someone had to rely on MM to stay alive, you could simply stun at the same time and then try to stun again before the cooldown ended. If you were bold enough to stun baton/flash/whatever a wizard you might actually have a chance of stopping him because they would still be down even if they pressed their "free stun button".

This is no longer the case, MM can and will outlast almost any other stun... the synergy with jaunt or MM has always been obvious, but the shortened stun durations available to the crew and security mean that keeping a wizard down long enough for lethal damage to be applied is now nothing short of a miracle unless the wizard is just bad. Reduced movement speed has also made juking the MM projectile impossible now. With earlier run speeds you could run away and then circle back at the wizard in a sufficiently open space to reapply another stun... not anymore. Since I've returned I've seen too many ridiculous rounds from mediocre wizards killing the entire station with no regard for strategy or survival, they can now just charge face-first into any situation comfortable knowing that MM will never let them die in combination with any other popular wizard spells. Jaunt, Blink, EMP, Hulk, Fireball, statue, disintegrate, teleport, etc. all provide the necessary "gap filler" for the MM cooldown... right now wizard rounds basically feel like "act like human target practice for the antag while praying that he makes some stupid mistake that gets him killed".

Throw in the mutagen nerf and the fact that suicide bombs risk getting you banned and wizard is just stupid right now. It might still be acceptable when the server has 60+ players and you can just throw crew at him until he makes a mistake but when you're at under 40 crew and maybe 3 security players... I fail to see how anyone has a chance to stop even a moderately robust wizard (one who remembers to pick up medical supplies).

P.S. Fix statue, its a fun concept but bugged to all hell, you could kill the entire station just by casting statue once every 5 minutes and then hiding in a closet while buggy code lets him one-shot everyone staring at him.

[Jeb]

i ded pls nerf

[Stickymayhem]

Even a barely decent wizard can murder the whole station without too much effort if they really wanted to. I think the wizard round is basically the closest a single person can get to molding a round for the whole station. Magic Missle is the reason why. It drops everyone with total ease, at which point you can choose to do whatever you want.

Honestly I don't think this is an especially bad thing. Wizard's need this to dictate the flow of a round without having globally powerful spells. Summon guns and spells are alright for this, but if that becomes the only way to make the station sufficiently chaotic enough to execute whatever warped vision you have, it's going to get tedious.

Wizards have a responsibility as wizards, if not as antagonists, to make the round interesting and fun. Obviously not in terms of rules, but just to be a decent person. It's infrequent as a result, but it does happen, and it happens thanks to MM in conjunction with Jaunt.

[Hornygranny]

I probably should have made magic missile shorter than what is now the normal stun, as was the case before.

[Atticat]

i ded pls nerf

What a great response. You're a joke.

[Kelenius]

It also stuns borgs.

[Steelpoint]

Its been able to stun borgs for a very long time.

I think MM is fine but I do agree its stun time needs to be brought in line with the other stun alterations as it stands out like a sore thumb. It seemingly stuns for longer than most other non-lethal weapons.

[Oldman Robustin]

Its been able to stun borgs for a very long time.

I think MM is fine but I do agree its stun time needs to be brought in line with the other stun alterations as it stands out like a sore thumb. It seemingly stuns for longer than most other non-lethal weapons.

Well that's why it isn't fine and why I didn't complain about it until now.

I probably should have made magic missile shorter than what is now the normal stun, as was the case before.

Yea, I was hoping this was just an unintended oversight of the stun nerf.


After this post I had 2 more wizard rounds back to back and both were just exercises in frustration. The wizard can rush into absolutely anyone now with 100% confidence of victory. I've never seen wizards so eager to jaunt onto the bridge when the captain sees them coming and has an egun out.

The altercation with shitty wizards before:

1) Wizard jaunts onto bridge
2) Spam electrodes where he starts to materialize
3) Get stunned by MM
4) Get up first and laser the idiot for charging straight into a prepared opponent.

Now:

1) Wizard jaunts onto bridge
2) Stun shitty wizard
3) Get stunned by MM
4) Wizard is up first, reads War and Peace aloud on the radio, then casually walks over and statues/gibs/skullfucks you.

The second wizard this morning I didn't even try to fuck around with MM, I learned I couldn't juke it with slow ass run speeds now so I simply ran out of the bridge. As soon as the MM dissipated I ran back inside and OH LOOK ANOTHER MAGIC MISSILE IS COMING TOWARD ME. After I got statue'd and reduced to dust I won a prayer to become the wizard's rival, it was absolutely silly how untouchable I was. I went MM, Mutate, Jaunt, Statue, Staff of Animation and just walked down the hall charging face first into any crew so MM became undodge-able. I had absolutely no fear of being stunned long enough for anyone to seriously harm me, because I would always be the first one up, take the staff off my back and animate a bunch of nearby shit and then walk away laughing.

I think I'm beating a dead horse now, but I've seen some other stupid changes stick around way too long, so I'm hoping that this gets fixed as soon as the "hiatus" or whatever is over. I die a little bit inside every time there's a wizard round now.

[Apsis]

The problem is that ss13 is still a game of stuns. No one should get up first long enough to make a kill on someone still stunned. This goes for both normal stuns and MM. Make the stun length the exact same.

[bandit]

Lower the stun for MM, but make it so by taking MM twice (or more etc), the stun lasts longer. If needed you can get rid of the lowered cooldown for this.

[Lovecraft]

I for one think it's fine as is, and I expect someone taking on the entire station to be packing abilities of this caliber.
I know it's easy to call for things to be nerfed when you recently get a round ended by them, so I think I'd have a hard time trying to convince you otherwise.

[miggles]

its not like you gain anything from stunning a wizard
every single wizard ever (except summon guns x 5) takes some kind of movement spell (jaunt, blink, teleport) so they WILL get away if you stun them
just shoot them with lasers
even if they do teleport away and heal themselves, eventually they will run out of ointment or whatever
trying to stun a wizard while he can use MM is ridiculously stupid. you can stun him, but then he'll just stun you back and run away. that's why you dont do it. it's not that it's overpowered, it's that you're trying to use an invalid tactic.
the only reason to ever STUN a wizard is if you are a borg, that's pretty much it. the point of the gamemode is to kill the fucking wizard, not capture him and interrogate him so you can find out why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

[Skyclad.Observer]

its not like you gain anything from stunning a wizard
every single wizard ever (except summon guns x 5) takes some kind of movement spell (jaunt, blink, teleport) so they WILL get away if you stun them
just shoot them with lasers
even if they do teleport away and heal themselves, eventually they will run out of ointment or whatever
trying to stun a wizard while he can use MM is ridiculously stupid. you can stun him, but then he'll just stun you back and run away. that's why you dont do it. it's not that it's overpowered, it's that you're trying to use an invalid tactic.
the only reason to ever STUN a wizard is if you are a borg, that's pretty much it. the point of the gamemode is to kill the fucking wizard, not capture him and interrogate him so you can find out why kids love the taste of cinnamon toast crunch.

^This

Stun is pointless while the wizard can cast while stunned.

[TheTerbs]

proper way to kill a wiznard is to modify the detectives revolver, load it up with .357 rounds

and pray to god you can crit the wizard before it literally explodes in your face

detective is secretly the most powerful anti wiznard tool

yes the detectives revolver can shoot .357

[paprika]

detective is secretly the most powerful anti wiznard tool

And anti syndie. And anti dual esword traitor. Etc etc.

I throw bear traps in front of him and hope he steps on one, because if he does, game over. Works against alien hunters too, just drop an armed one when they're chasing you and they're fucked.

[TheTerbs]

detective is secretly the most powerful anti wiznard tool

And anti syndie. And anti dual esword traitor. Etc etc.

Detective op pls nerf

New thread time

[paprika]

Naw .357 doesn't even stun like .38 so if you load it you lose your stun ability and can get dunked to shit by dat e-gun syndies have most of the time.

Back on topic:

Magic missile has never posed a big issue for me, but combined with disintegrate it's such a heavy fucking amount of bullshit it's not even funny. I can stand getting fireballed after magic missile but damn if ei nath isn't a 'win' button of the largest capacity.

[Incomptinence]

I think the bigger issue would be move speed nerf combined with untouched wizard transport spells means the crew is always arriving latter to the scene combined with more time to regen spells. I think wizards being strong is a good thing though.

[Oldman Robustin]

To the people saying "Why stun a wizard?"

It's because BEFORE the nerf it was like this:

MAGIC MISSILE STUN < ELECTRODE STUN.

NOW:

MAGIC MISSILE STUN > ELECTRODE STUN.

Yes now wizard stuns are pointless and you're forced to try and kill him with lasers and other projectiles. Unfortunately any smart wizard will carry enough ointment to survive being shot dozens of times. Meanwhile if you get hit ONCE you are more than likely dead.

MM wasn't an issue before.

It is now.

I've seen so many bad wizards manage to kill the station just by keeping medical supplies and running down the hall using magic missile + weapon/spell combo. Right now it's literally a miracle if you manage to kill even a moderately robust wizard.

Magic missile should NOT be the longest stun in the game. It's already AOE, homing, and got buffed by the reduced movespeed.

If you're still defending magic missile, you haven't played enough wizard rounds.

Edit: Entire station was just killed (50+ active players) by a wizard who summoned magic and katanas first. MM+Fireball+Blink and he killed everyone with those 3 spells and a Katana. He wasn't even that good, made plenty of mistakes, and ran around the central primary hall not even attempting to hide himself.

To the idiots saying WELL DUH WIZARD SHUD BE STRONG, he WAS strong before. MM was already an insanely good spell and every combat wizard used it. Now with every other stun nerfed and movement speed nerfed, it went from "best spell" to "I can kill the entire station with MM, jaunt, ointment, and a toolbox". It's really, really, really fucking broken.

[miggles]

but it takes time to apply ointment and bruise packs
also >if you dont agree with me you dont know what youre talking about

[Apsis]

but it takes time to apply ointment and bruise packs
also >if you dont agree with me you dont know what youre talking about

They don't have that delay I think.

[Oldman Robustin]

Ointment and Bruisepacks are instant. You can self-analyze your wounds too so you know exactly where to heal (90% of the time it will be chest/head anyway).

Right now getting lasered by security just means blinking/jaunting/teleporting out of danger for about 3 seconds while you click ointment twice and then bingo you're back in the green and ready to resume murderboning.

[Oldman Robustin]

Ointment and Bruisepacks are instant. You can self-analyze your wounds too so you know exactly where to heal (90% of the time it will be chest/head anyway).

Right now getting lasered by security just means blinking/jaunting/teleporting out of danger for about 3 seconds while you click ointment twice and then bingo you're back in the green and ready to resume murderboning.

Plus there's this whole issue with a little entity called the "AI". Firing lasers on the wizard means now you get to deal with the AI potentially bolting you into rooms and sending a borg to seize your weapons. I know I've been cockblocked from dealing a potentially fatal blow to a blink wizard because a nearby secborg stunned me after I fired a couple lasers into a stunned wizard.

I'd say my biggest reluctance to sign up for security right now is the potential of having to deal with a wizard. It's so incredibly unfun and suicidal that it almost completely erases any satisfaction I get from the role in other game modes. At no point do I ever enjoy being a fucktoy for an antag where despite being 100% responsible for the station's well-being... I'm 100% powerless to actually do anything about it.

[Skorvold]

They're instant on tgs code.

Wiz is supposed to be OP, They don't need a nerf in MM because the stun is too long, Just decrease the projectile count by one.

[Steelpoint]

Before the Stun alterations made by HG, at least to my recollection, the stun time on MM was just slightly shorter than the stun time from a Taser/Egun.

What did this mean? It meant that if both sides hit each other with a stun. Usually when someone hits the Wiz with a taser and the wizard uses MM to counter. What usually happens is that the non-wiz gets up a moment before the Wizard did, what this meant is that it gave the victim a chance to retreat and survive since usually continuing the engagement would end in more MM's or the wizard using an offensive spell.

Now however, you don't get that chance. If both sides get hit with a stun the Wizard will recover many seconds before the non-wizard will. Giving them plenty of time to walk over and apply ei nath to the forehead.

Not only that, but the situation now is further exacerbated due to the slower run speeds since not only does the MM stun you for longer but retreating from MM is significantly harder to pull off.

----------------------

I think the MM stun time should be reduced to be on equal if not slightly less than the stun a tase deals. It would give more quicker players a opportunity to survive a Wizard in certain circumstances and forces a faster response out of a Wizard.

[Stickymayhem]

People who want to be anti-fun wizards abuse MM and make shitty wizard rounds.

People who want to be fun wizards use MM to give them the time to do the silly thing they want to do and make fun wizard rounds.

Powergaming antags aren't fun. This is old news. Changing MM won't change the fact that some antags are just assholes who want to get the highest killcount or greentext.

[lumipharon]

You can literally outrun MM and keep throwing floortiles at a wizard, only fireball will move fast enough to be able to catch you.

[paprika]

MM moves slower that beepsky doesn't it?

[Lovecraft]

It's ridiculously easy to avoid when you can.

[Atticat]

If you are designated a survivor during a wiz round is suicide bombing still ban material?

[Munchlax]

No, you are an antag, those rules shouldn't apply to you.

[Durkel]

The people saying you can outrun magic missile aren't very good wizards. You don't MM from afar and then hope the stun hits them. You run up/teleport/blink/whatever the fucking nine million mobility spell you have, and hit mm. Even if you react fast enough and start to move away a airlock will cock block you or you're playing ring around the rosey with pink ball of rape.

Oh and on a side note, please for the love of god make it so wizard rounds end when the wizard dies. We don't need thirty minutes of assholes running around with their staff of change recalling constantly.

[danno]

If you are designated a survivor during a wiz round is suicide bombing still ban material?

No, you are an antag, those rules shouldn't apply to you.

But your one objective is to survive. Suicide bombing is the complete opposite of that.

[Neerti]

But they're an antag.

[paprika]

Don't you dare try to argue against the 'antags can do what they want to antagonize' policy because unless it's teamkilling or erping on lowpop NOBODY is going to take you seriously.

[miggles]

when have objectives ever dictated what you are allowed to do as antag

[paprika]

>Summoning narsie without a summon narsie objective is considered griefing because it fucks up escape with x amount of cultists
>Rev objectives are self explanatory

I think you mean traitors/changelings, but survivors aren't traitors, they're survivors.

[Neerti]

Pap that's because of the 'don't fuck your team over' clause team antags have. traitors/lings/other non-team antags can do w/e they want.

[paprika]

Does nobody see why that's retarded or is it just me

A survivor suicide bombing? When survivors literally only exist to help the wizard indirectly by thinning out the crew and causing a TON of paranoia? I get suicide bombing if it's your last resort or whatever but just seeing a gun drop at your feet magically and go DAMN IT'S TIME TO COOK UP SOME BOMBS AND BLOW UP SECURITY/THE WIZARD is fucking retarded.

[miggles]

you could look at literally every single microcosmic aspect of ss13 and say "thats fucking retarded" after trying to come up with a reasonable explanation for it
the fact of the matter is that the only thing survivors have differentiating them from normal crewmembers is a license to kill and usually, a gun
and since normal crew members are allowed to kill the wizard, why wouldnt an antag be allowed to? (excepting antags on the wizard's side obv)

[paprika]

That's not what I mean. I said 'indirectly' helping the wizard for a reason, and that isn't even the main point I'm trying to make here. Survivor is a fluff roleplay-fueled gameplay role and the best idea when it comes to summon guns because it adds a layer of paranoia, completely breaking that by going 'lol antag time to bomb shit' is pretty tunderchief, even if it isn't against the rules.

[Neerti]

That's not what I mean. I said 'indirectly' helping the wizard for a reason, and that isn't even the main point I'm trying to make here. Survivor is a fluff roleplay-fueled gameplay role and the best idea when it comes to summon guns because it adds a layer of paranoia, completely breaking that by going 'lol antag time to bomb shit' is pretty tunderchief, even if it isn't against the rules.

Anyways, good luck pushing for more antag restrictions since it's considered sacred to I imagine, a lot of people.

[paprika]

I was making a joke on miggles' response since apparently he was using tunderchief's name 'as an insult'. Jesus, I thought that was obvious as fuck, especially considering the timing.

[Oldman Robustin]

I have a new policy.

Every wizard round, no matter what role I'm playing. Captain, HoS, Warden, Officer, Assistant, Engineer, whatever.

As soon as a wizard appears I'm going to suicide.

It's that simple. Fix magic missile or ban me for suiciding in key positions. I don't care. I've never seen a single ability or item that makes me want to ragequit SS13 so hard. Every time a MM wizard arrives on station I know I'm going to be its fucktoy for the next 1-30 minutes. No matter how long I last it doesn't matter when even a half-retarded unrobust piece of shit can wipe out the station with no effort simply by running/jaunting toward you, hitting MM, and then laughing as he's always the first one to stand up and fireball/einath/statute/laser/melee/whatever and kill you.

Fix this shit.

[TheTerbs]

I have a new policy.

Every wizard round, no matter what role I'm playing. Captain, HoS, Warden, Officer, Assistant, Engineer, whatever.

As soon as a wizard appears I'm going to suicide.

It's that simple. Fix magic missile or ban me for suiciding in key positions. I don't care. I've never seen a single ability or item that makes me want to ragequit SS13 so hard. Every time a MM wizard arrives on station I know I'm going to be its fucktoy for the next 1-30 minutes. No matter how long I last it doesn't matter when even a half-retarded unrobust piece of shit can wipe out the station with no effort simply by running/jaunting toward you, hitting MM, and then laughing as he's always the first one to stand up and fireball/einath/statute/laser/melee/whatever and kill you.

Fix this shit.

git gud

[Oldman Robustin]

Didn't take long for me to make good on that promise, next round:

http://i.imgur.com/svPrS9L.png

Did the crew a favor by at least dying someplace they could loot me instead of the wizard. That's seriously the best thing you can do as a captain vs. wizard now... die someplace convenient.

[miggles]

I have a new policy.

Every wizard round, no matter what role I'm playing. Captain, HoS, Warden, Officer, Assistant, Engineer, whatever.

As soon as a wizard appears I'm going to suicide.

It's that simple. Fix magic missile or ban me for suiciding in key positions. I don't care. I've never seen a single ability or item that makes me want to ragequit SS13 so hard. Every time a MM wizard arrives on station I know I'm going to be its fucktoy for the next 1-30 minutes. No matter how long I last it doesn't matter when even a half-retarded unrobust piece of shit can wipe out the station with no effort simply by running/jaunting toward you, hitting MM, and then laughing as he's always the first one to stand up and fireball/einath/statute/laser/melee/whatever and kill you.

Fix this shit.

You're just going to get banned for breaking the rules. Nobody is going to value you or your command leadership enough to nerf something because you don't like it.
Suiciding heads is at most an inconvenience, because anyone with a screwdriver and a multitool can just steal your ID and take your job. Or, since it's a wizard round, nobody will care because killing the wizard is more important than a crybaby who hurts himself to punish other people.

[Oldman Robustin]

I have a new policy.

Every wizard round, no matter what role I'm playing. Captain, HoS, Warden, Officer, Assistant, Engineer, whatever.

As soon as a wizard appears I'm going to suicide.

It's that simple. Fix magic missile or ban me for suiciding in key positions. I don't care. I've never seen a single ability or item that makes me want to ragequit SS13 so hard. Every time a MM wizard arrives on station I know I'm going to be its fucktoy for the next 1-30 minutes. No matter how long I last it doesn't matter when even a half-retarded unrobust piece of shit can wipe out the station with no effort simply by running/jaunting toward you, hitting MM, and then laughing as he's always the first one to stand up and fireball/einath/statute/laser/melee/whatever and kill you.

Fix this shit.

You're just going to get banned for breaking the rules. Nobody is going to value you or your command leadership enough to nerf something because you don't like it.
Suiciding heads is at most an inconvenience, because anyone with a screwdriver and a multitool can just steal your ID and take your job. Or, since it's a wizard round, nobody will care because killing the wizard is more important than a crybaby who hurts himself to punish other people.

Because you expect me to kill the wizard?

I've been permabanned for killing the wizard using "powergaming" tactics before. If I don't powergame then I'm going to die and serve as a giant loot chest for the wizard.

Yea part of its frustration but part of it is legitimate. The best fucking thing I can do as captain is kill myself, let someone else stuff my ID in their bag, and delay the wizard from getting an all-access ID and self-recharging laser.

Powergame the wizard = Banned. Dont powergame the wizard = Die. Suicide is really one of the best options I have during wizard rounds.

[callanrockslol]

You can dodge magic missiles until they fade away, you can kill a wizard in less than 2 seconds with a well applied laser gun.

small bombs, flamethrowers and IEDs will mess them up well too, and shocked grills are amazing if you can pick a fight in a couple of them.

Syringe guns are GG no re wizard down

Wizards are fine

You just need to

Spoiler:

git gud

[Oldman Robustin]

You can dodge magic missiles until they fade away, you can kill a wizard in less than 2 seconds with a well applied laser gun.

small bombs, flamethrowers and IEDs will mess them up well too, and shocked grills are amazing if you can pick a fight in a couple of them.

Syringe guns are GG no re wizard down

Wizards are fine

You just need to

Spoiler:

git gud

Currently stun time <<< Magic missile fade time. Plus any time you get a stun off and they actually start taking damage you can guarantee that a jaunt/teleporter/blink is coming immediately anyway.

Same reason flamethrowers don't cut it. Jaunt removes flames and you're far more likely to ignite the 2 other dudes who got hit with magic missile and them burnt/killed while the wizard jaunts away with 3 burn damage.

There are 2 syringe guns, good luck getting one once wizard is called. My permaban was for using a mutagen syringe gun on a wizard as an assistant because it was too powergamey. I haven't tried to risk a ban for using once since then.

This is all beside the point however. Right now the most badly needed positions in the game are security/captain. Too many times I join a 30+ person game with 1 security/no captain - or the ones that do sign up are clueless. Right now Wizard is single handedly ruining those positions for me. The best weapons against wizards are the ones security doesn't have, that's ok if security had anything seriously threatening for the wizard... but they don't.

Wizard was FINE a few months ago. Nobody was saying "WIZARD UNDERPOWERED BUFF MAGIC MISSILE". Yet that's exactly what happened when every stun got nerfed EXCEPT magic missile. Now people are trying to defend this new status quo?

P.S. I'm not a complete baby about it. Admins sent a wizard a troll wizard for me with jaunt/MM but my ruse senses were tingling so I killed him and carried on as captain.