Shadowlings

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:42 am #103358

The old thread for this is deprecated and I wanted more modern feedback, especially with the new update.

How do you like shadowling?
Do you want shadowling to be in the rotation?
What are your experiences playing as a thrall or shadowling?
What changes do you suggest to make the gamemode better?
Should shadowling be added to the rotation? If so, how often?

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:13 am

Xhuis wrote:The old thread for this is deprecated and I wanted more modern feedback, especially with the new update.

How do you like shadowling?

Do you want shadowling to be in the rotation?

What are your experiences playing as a thrall or shadowling?

What changes do you suggest to make the gamemode better?

Should shadowling be added to the rotation? If so, how often?

Shadowling is alright. It's a pretty skill intensive role like wizard, so bad ones get pooped on immediately and the round becomes extended, while good ones can slaughter the station while playing one-handed

Shadowling is rotation ready, still needs work but it's still a better gametype than malf, blob, and the vast majority of traitorling games.

Shadowling's biggest flaw right now is that the path to victory is paved with boredom. Last time I played, I was pretty much spending half my time channeling a conversion. I would just walk through maint, glare, strip, hide, convert over and over and over. You never fight as a shadowling, you either get your target and convert him, or you flee. After a bit my thralls were bringing in a guy here or there and between that and another good shadowling getting thralls himself, I pretty much just sat in an atmos closet converting until we hit 15 and ascended. This problem stems from the fact that it's a pure conversion game. Rev, Cult, Gang, etc. all have you start with conversions but then the round will have its climax when the converted go battle with security/loyalists/etc. With shadowling you never have to leave the conversion phase and its very easy to win without really ever engaging in combat. You have nothing to gain from going toe-to-toe with sec, just run and hide and wait until you can get someone alone again.

I mean I have a blast ascending, that part should stay, but there needs to be a late-phase where the shadowlings have to HUNT a target(s) to complete the ritual for their ascension. You could take a page out of Gang War and force the Shadowling/Thralls to defend a ritual site until its ready... perhaps the ritual site will always be on the bridge/brig/etc. where the shadowling forces may not have control and will have to leave the safety of maint to secure it. This would give people a chance to really fight the shadowlings on their terms rather than just sitting in your department when suddenly /WAIL /GG.

Shadowling would probably be more enjoyable if they were combat-oriented and not just superstun+channel to always win 1v1 but also always be force to flee from even 2 enemies at once... but that's going to be very hard to pull off with shadowling's purpose and style... so I'd just focus on adding a new phase where the shadowlings and crew actually get a chance to fight each other.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 5:21 am #103364

To branch off of what oldman said, there actually is some advantage to going toe-to-toe with security, and thats thralling them.

Last time I played during a shadowling round, an officer managed to get himself thralled, which basically snowballed into all of security becoming thralled. Nobody could tell the difference between a thralled implantee and a non-thralled until you were wordlessly tased and dragged into the dark corner of maint. Literally the only thing that could stop a shadowling from thralling implanted people is the fact it takes slightly longer to thrall people already implanted, which could lead to a fuck-up, but almost never does.

So, unless this was changed from last time I saw them play, either make implanted people unthrallable (surgey isnt that hard people) or at least make it break the implant in the process to give some sort of forewarning to competent security that somethings wrong when the officer that went quiet for 3-5 minutes suddenly comes back without an implant.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:04 am #103370

I remember the prior, admin event version, had it that Thralls were very obviously thrall by their skin. However thrall a has some ling abilities.

I can't speak about the mode as I've never been in one, Shadow or otherwise.

callanrockslol · Sat Jul 11, 2015 11:47 am

You either start as a job that gets easy enthralls or have to try and grab people while running around in the hallways as a fucking hatched shadowling.

Just give us back old ling it was horrible but at least it worked.

callanrockslol · Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:01 pm

Ok I'm going to write some legitimate criticisms in a moment.

callanrockslol · Sat Jul 11, 2015 12:07 pm

Ok so the general ideas behind it aren't bad, but it relies on converting people but doesn't give you the tools you need until after you have hatched, but when you hatch you need people converted. You need to give unhatched shadowlings some sort of power to assist converting because without that it requires you to get a stun weapon, which is shitty because then your an antag that doesn't start with the tools you need to do antag stuff.

Also its probably better to make hatched shadowlings more powerful and give some of their current abilities like glare to unhatched so you can actually do things.

Incomptinence · Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:14 pm

More modes in rotation please.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:16 pm #103420

callanrockslol wrote:snip

The gamemode is balanced around hatched shadowling play. I gave unhatched shadowlings Enthrall so creative players could get an early increase in power.

MMMiracles wrote:at least make it break the implant in the process

If someone is implanted during enthralling, the process both takes an extra 15 or so seconds as well as breaking the implant. Future attempts to implant a thrall will have the thrall resist the implant.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:17 pm #103421

Ok, new question from y'all. I'm going to add thrall deconversion - what do you think is the best approach for this?

drovidi · Post by **drovidi** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:26 pm #103425

Best approach is either NO NO NO NO NO NO, or a cool thought for when the gamemode is more established that the shadowling has some tool to prevent. I'm thinking of cult, with its ability to summon cultists and smack them with a tome to clear the holy water out of their system, which would be great if the gamemode were structured in a way that encouraged that more.
With shadowlings as consistently unsuccessful as they are now, the last thing the mode needs is thrall deconversion.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 2:31 pm #103427

The thing with Shadowling is that, like most high level solo antags, its entirely reliant on the player itself in being a good player.

I do agree with Oldman that the Shadowling does need something akin to the Gang of a end game objective that forces its hand against the crew. In my original play through of the admin Shadowling event which spurred me to push for this game mode's creation I found myself avoiding conflict whenever I could, picking solo targets to robust with my arm blade, and overall just getting as many thralls as I possibly could.

Prehaps lock of some high power Shadowling powers to the end game, prior to ascending, and force the Shadowling into a open confrontation.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 4:14 pm #103441

Xhuis wrote:The old thread for this is deprecated and I wanted more modern feedback, especially with the new update.

How do you like shadowling?
It is an okay game-mode, but could do with some improvements.

Do you want shadowling to be in the rotation?
Yes, I certainly do!

What are your experiences playing as a thrall or shadowling?
As a Shadowling, I find the experience extremely difficult after hatching. It is no so bad if I am not discovered yet, but it quickly becomes a major uphill battle if the crew is aware of me.

What changes do you suggest to make the gamemode better?
Veil needs to kill glowshrooms, and nightvision needs a toggle and longer range (If these are already the case, ignore this post). Being blind to such a wide-spread danger is a problem.

Should shadowling be added to the rotation? If so, how often?
Yes, give it an uncommon change. That is, about as common as Gang or Nuke Ops.

Xhuis wrote:Ok, new question from y'all. I'm going to add thrall deconversion - what do you think is the best approach for this?

Please do not add such a thing. Shadowling is already monstrously difficult to win, conversion is as slow as a changeling absorption, and I do not believe anything should be done to make it worse.

Oldman Robustin · Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:23 pm

Shadowling is not "monstrously difficult" to win.

You just verify what I said about Slings in my comment. If you're good it's a cakewalk, if you're bad it's impossible.

I've ascended every time I've been a sling, 3/3.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 6:35 pm #103459

Even so, Robustin, I'm probably going to reconsider adding it due to majority vote here.

hanshansenhansson · Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:42 pm

Thralls need night vision. Science needs night vision removed or more heavily gated

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Sat Jul 11, 2015 10:47 pm #103483

Shadowling isn't hard to win, I see a lot of REALLY BAD shadowling players, though.

Thrall deconversion is badly needed. It just makes Security into an execution machine which isn't fun for anybody - Suspected of thrall? Breaking lights or standing in the wrong part of maint? DEATH.

Night vision is extremely easy and cheap to obtain via R&D. Not a shadowling exclusive issue but certainly part of the problem.

There are roundstart glowshrooms and those are just shit. Consider removing them outright or making them super rare.

callanrockslol · Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:50 am

Xhuis wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:snip
The gamemode is balanced around hatched shadowling play. I gave unhatched shadowlings Enthrall so creative players could get an early increase in power.

Its incredibly poorly balanced around hatched gameplay, you get a weak antagonist that isn't actually threatening to anyone even remotely competent and realistically only people that are very mechanically competent at this game do well with it. Hatched shadowlings are restricted to camping in maint or whatever few areas they smashed consoles and removed a few lights in before hatching.

It would work better if you were a human and had convert and glare to steal people, then went shadowling and got lots of fun powers to really cause problems, then ascended.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 12, 2015 4:51 am

callanrockslol wrote:
Xhuis wrote:
callanrockslol wrote:snip
The gamemode is balanced around hatched shadowling play. I gave unhatched shadowlings Enthrall so creative players could get an early increase in power.
Its incredibly poorly balanced around hatched gameplay, you get a weak antagonist that isn't actually threatening to anyone even remotely competent and realistically only people that are very mechanically competent at this game do well with it. Hatched shadowlings are restricted to camping in maint or whatever few areas they smashed consoles and removed a few lights in before hatching.

It would work better if you were a human and had convert and glare to steal people, then went shadowling and got lots of fun powers to really cause problems, then ascended.

Shadowlings will easily beat anyone alone. Glare and win, it's that simple.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 9:40 am #103586

Scones wrote:Shadowling isn't hard to win, I see a lot of REALLY BAD shadowling players, though.

Thrall deconversion is badly needed. It just makes Security into an execution machine which isn't fun for anybody - Suspected of thrall? Breaking lights or standing in the wrong part of maint? DEATH.

Night vision is extremely easy and cheap to obtain via R&D. Not a shadowling exclusive issue but certainly part of the problem.

There are roundstart glowshrooms and those are just shit. Consider removing them outright or making them super rare.

Glowshrooms aren't technically roundstart, but any competent botanist will hack their seed vendor to get them - I definitely wouldn't mind gating them behind a mutation just because of how hilariously easy it is otherwise for botany to shit out enough 100 potency glowshrooms to completely light up the entire station with no easy way to remove them.

Botany can also make torches and glowberries but those are pretty weak against a shadowling with any amount of thralls. The thralls can just strip the glowberries/torches away and space them or whatever. They're also kind of a pain in the arse, with glowberries gated behind a berry mutation (which halves the chance of you getting them when you try and mutate, because you can also roll poison berry) and torches are made with roundstart plants admittedly, but you have to make a drying rack, dry out wheat/ambrosia, then use that on towercap logs which are fairly slow growing.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 11:10 am #103606

Shadowling suffers from the same problem as cult and to a lesser degree ling: there are so many cool powers that shadowlings get that they NEVER, EVER USE. They have no incentive to. Before they get a critical mass of thralls it is FAR more effective not to hatch, and by the time they get a significant amount of thralls (which is pathetically easy for anyone more robust than your average clown) it is more effective simple to rush toward ascension.

Also, I notice a lot of the cooler abilities -- the ones that affect thralls, like Drain Thralls or whatever the one is that let you swap places with a thrall -- were outright removed, making the mode even more like rev + magic. Thralls shouldn't be converted antags, they should be people who understand they can be fucked with at a moment's notice if the shadowlings demand it.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:13 pm

bandit wrote:Shadowling suffers from the same problem as cult and to a lesser degree ling: there are so many cool powers that shadowlings get that they NEVER, EVER USE. They have no incentive to. Before they get a critical mass of thralls it is FAR more effective not to hatch, and by the time they get a significant amount of thralls (which is pathetically easy for anyone more robust than your average clown) it is more effective simple to rush toward ascension.

Also, I notice a lot of the cooler abilities -- the ones that affect thralls, like Drain Thralls or whatever the one is that let you swap places with a thrall -- were outright removed, making the mode even more like rev + magic. Thralls shouldn't be converted antags, they should be people who understand they can be fucked with at a moment's notice if the shadowlings demand it.

How the hell are they more effective unhatched? If you get one person who catches you trying to enthrall someone, and its very easy since there's virtually no way for you to do it without them yelling, it's GG for you.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 12:14 pm #103621

From what I can see it would take a good player to be able to enthral people while unhatched, and honestly I think Shadowling is at its best when its hatched. Hence why there's a cap of a unhatched Shadowling being only able to enthral five people.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Sun Jul 12, 2015 1:38 pm #103628

Oldman Robustin wrote:
bandit wrote:Shadowling suffers from the same problem as cult and to a lesser degree ling: there are so many cool powers that shadowlings get that they NEVER, EVER USE. They have no incentive to. Before they get a critical mass of thralls it is FAR more effective not to hatch, and by the time they get a significant amount of thralls (which is pathetically easy for anyone more robust than your average clown) it is more effective simple to rush toward ascension.

Also, I notice a lot of the cooler abilities -- the ones that affect thralls, like Drain Thralls or whatever the one is that let you swap places with a thrall -- were outright removed, making the mode even more like rev + magic. Thralls shouldn't be converted antags, they should be people who understand they can be fucked with at a moment's notice if the shadowlings demand it.
How the hell are they more effective unhatched? If you get one person who catches you trying to enthrall someone, and its very easy since there's virtually no way for you to do it without them yelling, it's GG for you.

table, apply cuffs, remove headset, gg

ETA: if they somehow remember to yell your name AND the location, ABORT MISSION. if/when you get arrested just eat the brig time, they will have no proof that you are doing anything perma-able after all. you will be on security's shitlist, but it hardly matters because once you hatch your identity is gone. if you get caught actually thralling you probably deserved it.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:26 am #103857

It feels a bit like wizard at the moment. Shit shadowlings get stomped, vaguely competent ones sleep their way toward ascension.

As others have said, there needs to be more thrall-based spells for shadowling. Draining and swapping places with them was all well and good, but by the time you got them, you already are near ascension anyway, and you have enough thralls that you probably have a queue forming for conversion. Apparently they were removed too, according to the people in this thread. Regardless, I really think that's the right approach to take, that being a thrall isn't necessarily a desirable outcome, and you could spontaneously die/combust/etc. at the whim of the SL. Might be interesting if, instead of having spells being locked under a conversion barrier, make them deal a flat amount of damage divided evenly between all your living thralls (or yourself if you're the only one). More thralls? Less risk. That said, this would give the SL far greater survivability, being able to, say, trade spots with his sole thrall at the cost of him being instacrit.

The other problem, as Oldman said, is that there's nothing to incentivize mid-lategame confrontation between crew and the shadowling. Instead, the shadowling either gets caught in an awkward earlygame confrontation (being caught during a conversion without transformation) and dies, or exponentionally expands to claim an easy victory. Perhaps scaling the time it takes to convert with the number of thralls may help with the early game, making it far shorter than we have now when you only have one or two, exponentionally increasing in 'cost', and perhaps, as others have said, broadcast where and when the SL is ascending, extend the requisite timer substantially, and make it cost 500 points of damage or whatever, rather than forcing the SLs to convert a certain magical number. That said, I feel that the SL should participate heavily in the finale, esp. in the combat for getting that far, instead of playing a repetitive passive role for the entire middle-endgame transitioning into unlimited murderboner works. How, I wouldn't know however.

The biggest problem I find, is that the thrall conversion system means that thrall growth is explosive. After you have two or three competent thralls, you can just sit in maint and let them abduct people one by one, which isn't really that fun for the SL. I don't quite know how to 'fix' that. I do know, however that some of the most fun I've had was in this mode, fucking up my second security conversion unhatched, resulting in a massive all-out brawl between my thralls, myself, and the rest of security. Just wish that there was something to incentivize that sort of confrontation.

onleavedontatme · Mon Jul 13, 2015 5:27 am

Xhuis wrote:Ok, new question from y'all. I'm going to add thrall deconversion - what do you think is the best approach for this?

Crematorium.

Oldman Robustin · Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:40 pm

bandit wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:
bandit wrote:Shadowling suffers from the same problem as cult and to a lesser degree ling: there are so many cool powers that shadowlings get that they NEVER, EVER USE. They have no incentive to. Before they get a critical mass of thralls it is FAR more effective not to hatch, and by the time they get a significant amount of thralls (which is pathetically easy for anyone more robust than your average clown) it is more effective simple to rush toward ascension.

Also, I notice a lot of the cooler abilities -- the ones that affect thralls, like Drain Thralls or whatever the one is that let you swap places with a thrall -- were outright removed, making the mode even more like rev + magic. Thralls shouldn't be converted antags, they should be people who understand they can be fucked with at a moment's notice if the shadowlings demand it.
How the hell are they more effective unhatched? If you get one person who catches you trying to enthrall someone, and its very easy since there's virtually no way for you to do it without them yelling, it's GG for you.
table, apply cuffs, remove headset, gg

ETA: if they somehow remember to yell your name AND the location, ABORT MISSION. if/when you get arrested just eat the brig time, they will have no proof that you are doing anything perma-able after all. you will be on security's shitlist, but it hardly matters because once you hatch your identity is gone. if you get caught actually thralling you probably deserved it.

They don't have to say your name or location, that's the beauty of AI. "HELP", which people ABSOLUTELY will do if you try to cuff them after a tabling. Either you flee at which point you're going to be even less effective unhatched since you're wanted, or you get arrested and spend several minutes in the brig while a hatched shadowling continues to do actual work. The worse risk is you get caught after removing the headset, even trying to remove it while they shout means that sec might flat out treat it like attempted murder since removing people's headsets is treated very seriously. Yea you shouldn't get caught thralling but no matter how many steps you take to cover your ass, there's always that longshot chance that someone finds you in your maint lair thralling, the victim screams about you being a shadowling, and depending on how effective security is... you're dead before you've even really played your role.

Back on topic:

The conversion mechanic has the acceptable drawbacks, the problem becomes that you're essentially a thrall factory by late game. You just sit there thralling and (as I said before) you have no incentive to actually fight security/crew, you just run-hide-commune thralls to bring victims to a new location and continue. When you spend most of your time as an antag just sitting in maint channeling a spell, it's not really a recipe for a fun experience.

Problem is conversions can't be easy either. Hence my suggestion that slings can remain a conversion factory for a while but there has to come a time when the forces of darkness need to accomplish something besides sitting in maint stunning people before a sling can get his godmode.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Jul 13, 2015 6:48 pm #104008

As far as "getting caught with kidnappee without headset" is concerned: Remove their headset, disable the power, put the headset back on.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:27 am #104126

Oldman Robustin wrote:Problem is conversions can't be easy either. Hence my suggestion that slings can remain a conversion factory for a while but there has to come a time when the forces of darkness need to accomplish something besides sitting in maint stunning people before a sling can get his godmode.

How about making the thrall hardcap 15, extend the duration of evolution, and make a Centcom announcement where the SL is evolving? I'd prefer if the SL had a more... active role in the confrontation though. The ascension could be a passive thing I suppose that gives a hefty speed malus.

Something else that might be interesting is that if you only had 8~ max thralls per SL, with allied dead shadowlings contributing thrall capacity to the remaining ones, split evenly. It'd make choosing your targets alot more discriminating and forces compromises - does the shadowling go for low-quality, low-access/equipment thralls that won't have much of an opportunity to handle the SL and are easy to grab? Or the security guards that are trickier to handle, and are riskier to convert? Or departmental personnel that are somewhere in between?

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:32 am #104128

Don't feel like quoting but yes glowshrooms are roundstart

Kind of obscure

Oldman Robustin · Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:13 am

Amelius wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Problem is conversions can't be easy either. Hence my suggestion that slings can remain a conversion factory for a while but there has to come a time when the forces of darkness need to accomplish something besides sitting in maint stunning people before a sling can get his godmode.
How about making the thrall hardcap 15, extend the duration of evolution, and make a Centcom announcement where the SL is evolving? I'd prefer if the SL had a more... active role in the confrontation though. The ascension could be a passive thing I suppose that gives a hefty speed malus.

Something else that might be interesting is that if you only had 8~ max thralls per SL, with allied dead shadowlings contributing thrall capacity to the remaining ones, split evenly. It'd make choosing your targets alot more discriminating and forces compromises - does the shadowling go for low-quality, low-access/equipment thralls that won't have much of an opportunity to handle the SL and are easy to grab? Or the security guards that are trickier to handle, and are riskier to convert? Or departmental personnel that are somewhere in between?

It could be as simple as just making an alien chem style system. Ascension ability will spawn a set of runes (or whatever), acolytes can drain their life for a moderate boost to ascension, but the most important source of ascension power would just be the sling standing on the central rune. Ascension triggers a gang war style notification, sling can let his thralls do the fighting or he can intervene himself but at the cost of further delaying ascension.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:50 pm #104324

My biggest problem with shadowling now is that its not as how it used to play when it was a admin mode.

Back then it was a case of a tide of obvious and hostile thralls overtaking the station, now its a game of hide and seek as you have no idea who the thralls are and it turns into a mode of the shadowling hiding in some maint forever.

onleavedontatme · Tue Jul 14, 2015 3:57 pm

We had one shadowling that got destroyed right away when he failed to enthrall me while I was captain. Did several sweeps of maint and saw nothing.

HoS quickly called the shuttle and we left in five minutes (red alert). The other three shadowlings had silently converted 6 people or something. There was of course no way to tell who they actually were other than that one attacked me and he'd been speaking to a couple other people prior. This is gonna lead to security killing people on very circumstantial evidence or losing

So yeah it's basically hide and seek that relies on security not powergaming too hard or otherwise being unaware, which is rather dull.

Seems like cult in that you fuck off to a dark corner and if sec doesn't stumble upon you in the next half hour or so you summon god and the round is over.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:28 pm

I think empowering the thralls is a really smart choice right now.

Make them Shadowling Jr. They'll have nightvision (really big quality of life issue for this mode anyway), have minor healing in dark and minor damage in the light. They'll either have the obvious shadowskin or perhaps a semi-obvious effect on their character to make identification easy. Give them a couple minor spells like Glare Jr. that would offer a modest mute (enough time to grab their headset if you can stun them shortly after applying it) and a modest slow with an obvious emote that everyone in the area would see, and maybe some kind of light-snuffing ability, perhaps something that can destroy glowshrooms/flares/etc, a passive minor stun reduction (nothing serious enough to prevent a standard stun+cuff, but enough to prevent something like a single flashbang from wiping out 4-5 thralls, as a counter-balance the flashbang could deal decent burn damage to thralls), and a standard 15-damage unarmed attack.

Rework thralls so that this feels like a WAR between light and dark, you should be safe from straight-up thrall aggression in well-lit areas but maint should also be a place of terror even if its just thralls. Biggest flaw of this change would be the standard "average player is an idiot" problem, where the odds of winning as a shadowling hinge less on your skill and strategy, but whether or not your first couple thralls are completely awful and immediately wander into a primary hall and die... ensuring a maximum early response against shadowlings that will likely end in a quick death for any thralls and the eventual extermination of the slings. On the other hand, giving them thralls a suite of minor abilities/buffs would go a long way of removing the dichotomy between "robust player with access to stun equipment" v. "average player with no stun stuff", with the later serving absolutely no purpose beyond advancing your ascension.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Jul 14, 2015 4:32 pm #104344

Thralls should function akin to the admin version, where they take on a sort of cross between a shadowling and a human, take damage in the light a bit and heal a bit otherwise in the dark and have a few minor powers as Oldman said.

Right now its just a game of hide and seek and call the shuttle asap.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 1:57 am #104464

Gotta agree with Steelpoint and Oldman here. It has potential to be a marvelous gamemode, and it CAN in it's current state have amazing 11/10 rounds, but more often than not it's a bust. With a little work it can be one of the best modes.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Wed Jul 15, 2015 2:14 am #104468

Scones wrote:Don't feel like quoting but yes glowshrooms are roundstart

Kind of obscure

I guess there's some pre-planted on the ground on the asteroid? You have to at least hack a vendor to get them from botany, and I'm pretty sure there's no seed for them in the public garden.

I mean if you wanted you were getting them 10 minutes after roundstart anyway so it's still a pretty major balance concern.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 4:49 am #106935

I've watched more rounds and I must stress that I think that Thralls need to look like thralls, and that they need to be given some Sling powers like Armblades or something.

Shadowling as a game mode has just turned into a drawn out game of hide and seek with nothing going on, which is a shame.

E: Under the older game mode (back when it was admin only) Shadowlings relied on using a armblade and their quicker charging teleporting skill to kill people, and thralls had limited abilties to help capture/kill people and bring them to a shadowling. The game turned into a game of literal light v darkness.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 9:49 pm #107077

I think it is highly annoying that there is NO way of identifying a thrall, nor a way to deal with them.

Now it is just a game of incinerating anyone that attacks you, cause there is basically no other way to deal with them.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:22 pm #107083

I agree with Steelpoint. There needs to be a tell that thralls are thralls, in some way, shape or form, but at the same time, thralls should still be able to partially interact with their department in the light to make up for the inability for the shadowling itself to. Vanilla security are the only ones that are obvious enough (missing implant), but only to security. This means it becomes very muddled who's who for anyone but the shadowlings in the mid-lategame. Maybe make them start taking progressively higher amounts of brute damage if kept in the light for a long enough period.

A second problem is there needs to be an endgame confrontation that can stem the 'long line of thrall-provided people to thrall after the earlygame, gaze at anyone who comes into the general vicinity, repeat until 15' thing that seems to be the sole strategy. There needs to be more thrall-fuckery abilities too, generally speaking to fit the theme.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Jul 24, 2015 11:29 pm #107085

what if thralls are physically recognisable but can hide it by wearing masks etc?

Bombadil · Post by **Bombadil** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:15 am #107095

EDIT:

Okay so this is totally fucking stupid but you can use implants to detect shadowlings because all shadowlings reject implants.

So... yeah shadowling valid hunts by mass purchasing loyalty implants is possible and that is fucking retarded fix this

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:41 am #107100

There needs to be a sure but limited method to test for Shadowlings and thralls. As it stands there is no way to figure out who's a thrall.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:44 am #107102

As I said prior thralls should not be a stealth antag of sorts but a instantly recognisable antag that has some powers to its own.

The only way a thrall should be able to disguise itself is via using a mask.

That's how it functioned under the old admin system and that's what got a lot of positive reviews and attention.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:30 pm #107187

Steelpoint wrote:As I said prior thralls should not be a stealth antag of sorts but a instantly recognisable antag that has some powers to its own.

The only way a thrall should be able to disguise itself is via using a mask.

That's how it functioned under the old admin system and that's what got a lot of positive reviews and attention.

That sounds good. Just make sure the abilities of the thralls are tied to light/darkness, i.e. the major ones being untriggerable in light.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:43 pm #107403

Some changes going on at https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10871

blobbernaut · Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:05 am

Oldman Robustin wrote:
Xhuis wrote:
I mean I have a blast ascending, that part should stay.

yeah because you are given godmode and an instant gib spell

of course it's a blast. FOR YOU. But it gibs all your thralls, and you gib anybody you come across. It doesn't even force shuttle or end the round after a timer. There isn't even a way to fight them. They're pointless.

It's too much at everybody else's expense to be justified to exist. Ascended lings need a serious nerf so that they have actual gameplay to them. Right now they're the most pointless part of any game mode on the server, you basically become a rogue admin. So fun for everybody else right haha no.

newfren · Post by **newfren** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 1:00 am #107422

Ascended Slings do actually force a shuttle call (a faster one, only 3 minutes until it arrives).

The entire point of ascended slings is that the round is basically over and the shadowling has won - this is just giving them 5 minutes to enjoy their victory.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 3:02 am #107435

It is a player version of Nar-Sie. It exists only to murderbone and enjoy god-mode for a while. Frankly, I wish we had a player Nar-Sie as well.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Mon Jul 27, 2015 4:17 am #107442

Gun Hog wrote:It is a player version of Nar-Sie. It exists only to murderbone and enjoy god-mode for a while. Frankly, I wish we had a player Nar-Sie as well.

This is exactly the way I designed ascendants. The shuttle is called as soon as a shadowling ascends, as well as the entire world getting a sound and message (as well as all lights blowing out). You have a choice between sanic enthralling and sanic gibbing because those two spells have no cooldown.