/tg/Station 13

I just watched a single portable airpump make an entire section of test science impossible to move in, and a single panic syphon leave 5-6 people stuck in a 3x3 area of tiles.

Getting near any kind of air suction can easily kill you, vacuums to space are an obvious issue... they should be hazardous, not guaranteed death, especially when the breach has been there for 5+ minutes and should've depressurized.

Panic syphons should make a room unbreathable, not fucking make a black hole sucking in every player who falls into its event horizon.

The way it was in my head is that panic siphons basically act like an opening to space. In that context it doesn't seem so bad. If it needs a nerf is an open question but right now I think they function pretty well.

I dunno robustin, they were painfully slow before, not even a worry when the AI went full retard, I'm not sure I agree, I'd rather they be too effective rather than not enough.

I like the new effectiveness of the new vents and scrubbers, but spacewind gets seriously stupid at times. A single cannister opened will make a hallway impossible to move in for minutes.

while getting pushed around a little bit doesn't bother me too much and i know very little about how it's calculated i'd support raising the threshold in how much pressure differential / air rush is required to push, though i do support spacewind being a thing i'd like magboots to become engineering standard issue, as spacewind is a problem.

also give engineering cyborgs a magboot module so they can stick to the floor and fix spacewind, as it is you have to wait 5 minutes for a place to depressurize before you can grille+window and it's obnoxious.

Believe me, I want more lethality less H U G B O X (fucking nazi mods and chat filters) too, panic syphons, hull breaches, etc. should be dangerous. It just goes a LITTLE too far when you get permastunned by spacewind because you walked too close to an airpump while at 50% health.

You know what I propose? Resisting while un-grabbed/un-firey/etc. will cause your character to dive forward ~5 tiles and be "stunned" for ~7-8 seconds. It lets you throw yourself away from a syphon/pump/breach without having the old "I literally don't care about atmos" system of non-lethality.

What if it was like zero gravity movement, if you can grab onto something you have more spacewind resistance?

Scott wrote:What if it was like zero gravity movement, if you can grab onto something you have more spacewind resistance?

That makes a lot of sense actually.

if you are near object you can move maybe slightly better than now

if not you have a chance increasing with strength of the wind to be thrown with the gusting wind

Hard to say definitively without a coder to look it over, but I feel like pumps are weaker by a fair margin. someone go poke one of those sleeping bums in bus and ask em.

Fairly sure the problem isn't with fastmos, but rather with the more recent (1mo-) changes to how spacewind works. I've noticed that spacewind has gotten fucking retarded recently, and it really needs to be toned down.

Spacewind is really frustrating and I don't think it should remain at it's current level with the current number of magboots on the station

It's insanely hard to actually get things (bodies) back inside the station, if not next to impossible right now.

lol h u g b o x

Miauw wrote:lol h u g b o x

Fun fact: It's physically impossible to pull any item without a deliberately retarded spacewind var (like mining ore crates) through any airlock on station except Escape right now.

And even ore crates cause shit sometimes.

I wasn't aware of a spacewind update. Yea it sounds like its a spacewind change rather than fastmos.

spacewind also leads to stupid solutions, if you drag an unsecured window behind you can't get pushed back and are absolutely fine.

The new spacewind changes are godawful. I'll be indoors, tugging a corpse into maintenance and it will spontaneous fly away from me. Borgs have to literally fight spacewind in maintenance if even a little air has been sucked from it from opening a door once or twice to/from a breached area, rendering the oxidized area rife with bullshit mysterious spacewind, as I witnessed today. Mid-round people are actually abandoning multiple corpses in the hallway, in lieu of tugging them into a medbay that was damaged in the past because the bodies constantly fly away from them and settle into a 1x1 area (watched this huge act of futility myself, involving 4 fucking corpses). I have yet to hear a single person in deadchat or OOC say a single positive thing about spacewind, only negative, always along the lines of 'spacewind is mecha-Hitler sent to sabotage /tg/station'.

Spacewind was never fun, but fair, and only really played a part in airlocks, until now when it's become bullshit. I've been stuck in a 1x1 tile after a bomb hits these days, only escaping because I'm a goddamn changeling after exhausting much of my chems just to get OUT, even if I was at near full-health to begin with, due to the slow in conjunct with the spacewind. I've had areas deoxidize for short periods that become ridiculous to merely move in. A breach or void is punishing enough by being deadly in two senses - oxygen and pressure, but adding an intense, third, mystical factor that only serves to make things irritating with only one preventative measure - one of the two magboots on the station is not good design.

Seriously, just why. It's just a fun dampener. Muh realism is never a valid response, because it's a goddamn game.

bring back engey gloves and magboots

Falamazeer wrote:I dunno robustin, they were painfully slow before, not even a worry when the AI went full retard, I'm not sure I agree, I'd rather they be too effective rather than not enough.

I take all of this back, now that I've seen the real godamn effects, holy fucking shit guys, this needs work.
I can't even table walk out of the wardens office because the scrubber in THE ARMORY is going.

this is insanity

either it needs to be changed or magboots need to become engineering standard, as it is you can play assistant pingpong by activating siphon lel, it's actually hilarious. once you get down to half health~ you cannot get out of space anymore at all, and vents are basically nigh inescapable black holes if you are wounded.

I've moved a thread Amelius made because it's basically the same complaint.

Which I think just highlights how important this issue is. Just trying to reduce clutter a bit.

If you are even a little bit slowed and you get pulled into the hole, god help you because you are not getting out.

Even if magboots were an engineering standard, it's still fucking dumb for the rest of the crew having to leave corpses in the hallway since it's futile to try to bring them into medbay, or cyborgs being thrown around by spacewind indoors, or both literally sucked into and stuck on vents or 1x1 patches of blown areas after a bombing, unable to escape if not at full health and not freezing for more than a second.

Just revert it and never think of a space-wind related change ever again. This is beyond godawful. Though, I guarantee what will happen, since it's Cheri's PR, is that he'll 'tweak the values', it'll still be beyond shit but slightly less so, and all the valid complaints and PRs will be ignored and closed henceforth, instead of doing the sane thing and reverting it. A+.

Falamazeer wrote:

Falamazeer wrote:I dunno robustin, they were painfully slow before, not even a worry when the AI went full retard, I'm not sure I agree, I'd rather they be too effective rather than not enough.

I take all of this back, now that I've seen the real godamn effects, holy fucking shit guys, this needs work.
I can't even table walk out of the wardens office because the scrubber in THE ARMORY is going.

this is insanity

Yea it's pretty funny.

The round that prompted this was a Gang War with one panic siphon running (robocop AI pretty much wiped out security because "I'M HELPING") and one portable air pump turned on in test science. The siphon was keeping 4 members of security on complete lockdown (janitor slip spots helped), but the icing on the cake was that people who escaped the panic siphon and tried to hack the door to the Dominator couldn't do it because a portable air pump was running ~3 tiles away and kept sucking everyone towards it.

Corpse handling is another huge issue people have noticed. Don't bother gibbing a corpse, just turn on the panic siphon and leave your victim over the scrubber bonus points if someone dies from o2 loss because they tried to drag the corpse out and got sucked in themselves.

It's easier to walk away from the singularity than it is from a siphon right now.

Oldman Robustin wrote:

Falamazeer wrote:

Falamazeer wrote:I dunno robustin, they were painfully slow before, not even a worry when the AI went full retard, I'm not sure I agree, I'd rather they be too effective rather than not enough.

I take all of this back, now that I've seen the real godamn effects, holy fucking shit guys, this needs work.
I can't even table walk out of the wardens office because the scrubber in THE ARMORY is going.

this is insanity

Yea it's pretty funny.

The round that prompted this was a Gang War with one panic siphon running (robocop AI pretty much wiped out security because "I'M HELPING") and one portable air pump turned on in test science. The siphon was keeping 4 members of security on complete lockdown (janitor slip spots helped), but the icing on the cake was that people who escaped the panic siphon and tried to hack the door to the Dominator couldn't do it because a portable air pump was running ~3 tiles away and kept sucking everyone towards it.

Corpse handling is another huge issue people have noticed. Don't bother gibbing a corpse, just turn on the panic siphon and leave your victim over the scrubber bonus points if someone dies from o2 loss because they tried to drag the corpse out and got sucked in themselves.

It's easier to walk away from the singularity than it is from a siphon right now.

The amount of times I've seen someone robust themselves with a baton or something because of space wind is pretty impressive too.

Lost count of how many times someone has clicked and been sucked in on the same tick and bam stun.

Ya, When I made fastmos, I limited space wind to 1 movement per moved thing per second.

Cheri tweaked the space wind resistance variables a bit and flat out removed the timed nerf. I warned him about this, and he said it wasn't that bad.

When I made my scrubber buff PR, It kinda exacerbated this by accidentally making panic syphon faster than space, something i plan to tweak

MrStonedOne wrote:Ya, When I made fastmos, I limited space wind to 1 movement per moved thing per second.

Cheri tweaked the space wind resistance variables a bit and flat out removed the timed nerf. I warned him about this, and he said it wasn't that bad.

When I made my scrubber buff PR, It kinda exacerbated this by accidentally making panic syphon faster than space, something i plan to tweak

Please tweak the wind itself, rather than the scubbers. I very much enjoy the new effectiveness of the air alarms, and that it is actually possible to clean up a mess and get people back to work before the round ends. It can even prevent a pointless shuttle call! Please do not move us towards the old, ineffective scrubbers.

I'm not sure bout that Gunhog.

The wind is obviously an issue here but I had two rounds last night with a subverted AI that was quite proficient at mass-syphoning. The space wind was an issue, but the universal pressure damage across the station meant anyone without an EVA suit/hardsuit either had to find an area completely cut off from atmos (not easy when AI's bolting/shocking everything) or they would be dead within 5 minutes.

One round in particular it was a Gang War, and I made a science gang and subverted the AI. It was violent and there was a fair deal of fighting, but once the AI was on our side it was a flat-out genocide. Everything outside of science was being scrubbed and shocked, our gang never really left science and we killed probably 6-8 people at most but when we got our dominator victory a badmin detonated the nuke and literally me and my two remaining gangsters were literally the only ones left alive.

This was a prime-time busy round and the AI had managed to murder most of the station with panic syphoning. Syphoning is absolutely more lethal than plasma flooding now. I'm not saying it needs to go entirely, but tweak it down just a bit so that I have more than 3 minutes to navigate shocked/bolted doors and get a suit or a safe location before the entire station becomes an airless vacuum of spacewind and tears.

Keep in mind that scrubbers now have an extended range feature that can make them 8x more effective (I mean, it affects all the tiles surrounding the scrubber). They will be deadly even after a potential nerf - but you can weld scrubbers now too. I guess some rounds of AIs turning the station into a vacuum will teach people to seal the scrubbers. And at least the scrubber pins you down, making it easy to weld, whereas you just have no chance approaching a vent set to flooding.
That is one end of the spectrum...
... the other is that itty bitty pressure differential pushing every object around, making repairs in recently bombed areas a royal pain in the ass (put down an air pipe, see it go on a merry journey to the far side of the room).

I was the AI in that gang round, and yeah scrubbers were hilariously powerful with shocked doors. The only people who could have conceivably shut off the scrubbers without getting shocked, the CE and engineers, were dead before they could get to suits.

It was AMUSING, but I killed more or less everyone who could have stood against the gang who subverted me, except for two enemy gang members who seemed to have some sort of pressure immunity.

If you're next to a solid object with dense or anchored and your hands are free you should be able to avoid spacewind

yeah, scrubber effectiveness is beautiful probably only in a way habitual AI or engi/atmos players can see. scrubbing rooms of plasma WITH SCRUBBERS ALONE is now possible, where before it took an hour and a half to scrub a single room. spacewind is the problem, for god's sake leave scrubber/vent effectiveness alone!

oranges wrote:If you're next to a solid object with dense or anchored and your hands are free you should be able to avoid spacewind

this would make space even less hazardous than before when it comes to trying to re-enter a broken window/the airlocks in escape

PKPenguin321 wrote:

oranges wrote:If you're next to a solid object with dense or anchored and your hands are free you should be able to avoid spacewind

this would make space even less hazardous than before when it comes to trying to re-enter a broken window/the airlocks in escape

who actually finds it fun to slowly get sucked out of a window and try and fight spacewind only to slowly freeze and die 2 tiles away from safety

Shaps wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:

oranges wrote:If you're next to a solid object with dense or anchored and your hands are free you should be able to avoid spacewind

this would make space even less hazardous than before when it comes to trying to re-enter a broken window/the airlocks in escape

who actually finds it fun to slowly get sucked out of a window and try and fight spacewind only to slowly freeze and die 2 tiles away from safety

I really dislike this argument, and here why:



Not everything has to be fun, some things are designed to make things more challenging so other things can be more fun. If a game is too easy, it has no appeal, no replayability.

"who actually finds it fun to die instantly from spikes and have to restart?" Well, the millions of users who play spelunky for one.

Now, does that mean spacewind in its current form is good? no, but find a better and less lazy argument.

There's a difference between something being "not fun" and being unintuitive and annoying as shit.

okay, fair enough point, let me rephrase. Is it really fun to die to something that you really can't counter without having very specific and hard to access gear, given how common of a threat that spacewind is? Breaches and atmos fuckups are so common that players are given emergency internals specifically so they can keep breathing when they run into a hole in the hull or need to grab a body that's right outside an airlock, but when it comes to space wind, you're pretty much hopelessly fucked just trying to come back into the station from space unless you have magboots or a space suit, which really sucks because of how it's fairly common to need to go out to space for a second to get a body or patch a window only to end up getting locked by spacewind and killed

I have seen this before with the singularity buff. Since environmental factors have no intelligence behind them coders seem fine with making them absurdly near impossible to counteract on short notice deadly.

The power gaming traitor's crime wasn't killing everyone or ruining their rounds we will set up the game to do that to us near automatically, it was being capable of enjoying doing it.

Shaps wrote:okay, fair enough point, let me rephrase. Is it really fun to die to something that you really can't counter without having very specific and hard to access gear, given how common of a threat that spacewind is? Breaches and atmos fuckups are so common that players are given emergency internals specifically so they can keep breathing when they run into a hole in the hull or need to grab a body that's right outside an airlock, but when it comes to space wind, you're pretty much hopelessly fucked just trying to come back into the station from space unless you have magboots or a space suit, which really sucks because of how it's fairly common to need to go out to space for a second to get a body or patch a window only to end up getting locked by spacewind and killed

Think about what you just said.

Go out
into
SPACE.

Space is supposed to be fucking deadly and no, you should not be able to go out to space to retrieve a body or patch a window without shit being incredibly dangerous and risky. That's what hardsuits and EVA gear is for, that's why EVA is called "EXTRA-VEHICULAR ACTIVITY." These things become pointless if you can do without them. Plus, EVA isn't even hard to access anymore with current server policy, all you need to say is "AI open this door I've gotta retrieve a body" and you're in.

bandit wrote:

Shaps wrote:okay, fair enough point, let me rephrase. Is it really fun to die to something that you really can't counter without having very specific and hard to access gear, given how common of a threat that spacewind is? Breaches and atmos fuckups are so common that players are given emergency internals specifically so they can keep breathing when they run into a hole in the hull or need to grab a body that's right outside an airlock, but when it comes to space wind, you're pretty much hopelessly fucked just trying to come back into the station from space unless you have magboots or a space suit, which really sucks because of how it's fairly common to need to go out to space for a second to get a body or patch a window only to end up getting locked by spacewind and killed

Think about what you just said.

Go out
into
SPACE.

Space is supposed to be fucking deadly and no, you should not be able to go out to space to retrieve a body or patch a window without shit being incredibly dangerous and risky. That's what hardsuits and EVA gear is for, that's why EVA is called "EXTRA-VEHICULAR ACTIVITY." These things become pointless if you can do without them. Plus, EVA isn't even hard to access anymore with current server policy, all you need to say is "AI open this door I've gotta retrieve a body" and you're in.

I'm going to have to steal a quote.

Sometimes, space comes to Medbay

This isn't about how deadly space should be.
It's about a seemingly inconsistent feature stunlocking you in place near space until you are dead. There is no challenge in pressing down a movement key for a minute or two as your only and last hope and as a very futile attempt to escape the wrath of spess wind. Sometimes you can clear a breach or get inbetween airlocks without problem - other times, you become Flubber bouncing all over the place.
The problems with the low resistance of things versus air pressure isn't just about you and a broken window leading to space. Vents set to flooding make the crew look like they have slept in a cryo tube full of gargle blaster for the last 8 hours. Even the tiniest bit of draft pushes items around, making simple repairs a pain in the ass.
I dare you to play miner or engineer and not get annoyed by space wind.

bandit wrote: Think about what you just said.

Go out
into
SPACE.

Space is supposed to be fucking deadly and no, you should not be able to go out to space to retrieve a body or patch a window without shit being incredibly dangerous and risky. That's what hardsuits and EVA gear is for, that's why EVA is called "EXTRA-VEHICULAR ACTIVITY." These things become pointless if you can do without them. Plus, EVA isn't even hard to access anymore with current server policy, all you need to say is "AI open this door I've gotta retrieve a body" and you're in.

There is no 'risk' involved. There is shitty mechanics that mean you can't fucking move or do anything, and die while holding down a movement key.

Hell, yesterday I tried to SPACE a guy (unconscious HoS). I COULDN'T EVEN PULL HIM OUT THE AIRLOCK. Like holy fucking shit, I literally could not move his stupid ass body even into the airlock tile, since SPACEWIND would pull me out every time I stepped onto the airlock tile, leaving his body 2 tiles away. (I couldn't just throw him straight out because it would hit the station)

This is not interesting game play, or realism - it's just annoying, frustrating shit that no one likes.

Would making things that are being pulled immune to spacewind help, or do people just want less spacewind period?

Less spacewind in general, considering it seems that we are not going to change how often shit is blowing up (And how FUCKING STRONG scrubbers are)

Kor wrote:Would making things that are being pulled immune to spacewind help, or do people just want less spacewind period?

Less space wind... like it was a couple of weeks back. Space wind has overtaken good ol' space slipping (You slip! x100) according to the 'oh-my-god-kill-me-now-this-is-too-annoying' scala.

More methods to counter it, there are a few suggested options already
If you can touch an anchored item, like a vending machine or wall, it won't force you to move
If you're getting sucked, resist spam will throw you forward to try to escape it.
as well as making dragged items/people more resistant.
.

The first option doesn't help against the current DEATHSIPHONS that will ggnore anyone near them (in corridors it would be ok, but in rooms you'd still be fucked).

played again the other day, a ripley drilled a hole in escape and a second later a conga line of food was being dragged from the chef's table all the way down the hall
while hilarious this is a bit silly and should be toned down

I think with Fastmos, we may be forced to go the ZAS route and plonk in a bunch of extra airlocks everywhere, so poking a hole outside EVA doesn't space the janitor's closet, and Escape doesn't do nasty things to Meday