Rebalancing Constructs

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 29, 2015 6:58 pm

Juggernauts are a bit crazy right now. For something you can get roundstart, and can reliably churn out, they're more or less immune to almost everything security has. The group of people responsible for defending the station should not be completely disarmed by such a common antagonist. Would they be too weak if I simply removed the reflect chance? They usually have an artificer who can magic missile and repair them.

Wraiths on the other hand are weak, as they always have been. For wraiths I propose bumping their health a bit, and giving them the slaughter demon's power (minus the mob devour).

Artificers and harvesters seem fine as is.

Anyway, thoughts?

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 7:25 pm #108189

Juggs aren't bad if it's just one of them, since they're super fucking slow.
One guy with a laser or 2 can kill it no problem.

But when the cult gets a juggernaut army going, and you see 5+ juggs roaming the halls, there is literally not enough weaponry on the station to hold them off - and most people cannot physically hurt them, which is really shitty.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:32 pm

Here's the big issues with Constructs:

1) They aren't easy or common for 98% of the players here. It's a fucking ART timing your sacrifices right now for the highest chance of getting a soul shard out of it. They aren't roundstart issues either. Juggernauts are the absolute worst thing you can do early as cult aside from throwing on the armor talisman and rushing the brig. They're useless without at least one artificer (remember that thing about timing sacrifices? that's never going to happen with juggernauts bringing back victims, everyone ghosts after being killed by a jugg) so the earliest you're looking at is a arti+jugg rush. If you somehow manage to snowball security with 2 constructs, I don't think any amount of cult nerfs in the world could save them.

2) I really like that Cult is one of the few "conversion" antags that isn't reliant on stolen security gear in order to beat security. I've seen hefty construct armies get worn down and destroyed, I think a successful late-game cult is roughly equal in power to a late-game gang. One gets access to some incredible ballistic weapons, the other gets constructs to make up for the lack of ranged cult weaponry. Don't pretend that cult uses blood boil more than 2-3 times a year.

3) The artificer/jugg synergy is real but extremely rare. I've pooped out more constructs than probably anyone else on this server and I can tell you for a fact that getting juggs and arti's to stick together is like herding cats. Once they go loud constructs will do whatever the fuck they please, some juggs will wander off and take great joy in just punching all the walls, others will get distracted and chase every greyshirt they see until they're isolated and not sure where everyone went, others will beeline for the brig while everyone else is still murdering the bar or medbay and get gunned down for showing up too soon. Your thinking on these constructs falls into the same trap I see with lots of coder stuff, you see the theoretical potential on paper and go "My god! These things are unstoppable!" then you realize that most of the time constructs are being run by the 5 nearest idiot crewmembers you could talisman and if given any opportunity to fuck up they absolutely will. I spend half of my energy with constructs just reminding them to SHUT THE FUCK UP and not punch walls, redecorate floors, etc. while hiding in maint... managing once they're loose is downright impossible. Having them work some theoretical formation with juggs in front, arti's repairing in back is never going to happen in a real round, the arti will run ahead because he's gotten overconfident from killing all the unarmed doctors or whatever and then get mowed down trying to break a brig window, then the jugg shows up and gets lasered up, but runs... starts yelling for repairs and the remaining arti's outright ignore him or struggle to figure out which one even needs repairs. It's a clusterfuck and the giant foam helmets that constitute the reflect chance are the only thing keeping those retards from dying the first chance they get.

4) Ballistics are a thing. Sure sec orders and uses them about as often as the aforementioned constructs stick together and work as a team, but it does happen and the counter is there. Combat shotguns firing slugs will tear juggernauts to pieces. I have never seen constructs out in force before sec had notice of the cult and opportunity to get shotguns loaded on the next cargo order, or at least get ammo from the autolathe and load lethal slugs into the armory shotguns. If a shotgunner finds you as a juggernaut and you don't have immediate support, you're dead.

5) Just wanted to stress again how idiotic the average construct swarm is. You say they're common but the fact that roughly a third of my constructs are first-timers says otherwise (and another third might as well be first-timers, theyll cast magic missile while still in the cult pack and then charge forward toward the security and try to boop them to death). In my last 5 cult rounds I had to explain to every starter artificer how to use its spells, explain to juggernauts that they can punch down walls, explain that artificers can repair juggernauts by clicking them, etc.

I'm not all doom and gloom though, here's my proposed solution:

A) Replace reflect with block, or otherwise a damage reduction that yields a similar number of AVERAGE LASERS TILL DEATH as currently coded. This gives juggernauts their necessary retard foam helmets that keep them alive but removes the reflect mechanic that frequently lets sec murder themselves. Removing reflect but not the mitigation would already be a big nerf to juggerfriends since half the time the only reason you can even catch and kill security is because they laser themselves 3-4 times with reflections and are slow enough to get caught by juggernauts.

B) Fix fucking sacrifice god damn it's a no brainer. I've begged coderboys to look at this issue and it never gains traction. Right now the slaughter mechanic is an utter DISASTER. Your success as a cult becomes dependent on whether your victim realizes that they will be kept in the round if they don't ghost (and so many people love to ghost as soon as they know it's GG) and whether or not your victim is a vindictive piece of shit who will ghost just to avoid having to help you. Nothing is more disgusting than bringing in 10+ sacrifices as the cult goes loud and watching every single one paint the floor with gibs and nothing to show for it as you shout "HEY GHOSTS GET IN YOUR BODIES ARGJFLKKLDFJG". This can cost you the round when all your arti's wander off and die (and believe me you'd be AMAZED at all the ways they go off and die, so many love the idea of dueling an assistant and thinking MM+Ram is going to get them a kill only to end up getting welded to death) and your only source of new soul shard is lost as a dozen corpses splatter the area with no shards inside. Even well-managed arti's can't make enough shards to keep up with the corpse intake when constructs go loud. While it can jeopardize the cult's late game, it can also DESTROY your early game. Nothing says GET FUKT like having your first two abduction victims ghost and you're out of stun talismans with nothing to show for it but a giant gibby mess that threatens to expose the cult.

One fix is to give crew the CLONER/DEFIB style alert when their corpse is placed on a sacrifice rune. Other solutions would be to force ghosts back into bodies when sacrifices, you could also make it so that sacrificing a ghosted corpse will simply give an offer to another dead player to fill the shard as a "soul from beyond" or something. Or at least give us an empty shard for ghosted players so we can ensure the next victim actually yields you a soul.

If sacrifices get a robust fix then I could see more justificiation for tweaking the block/reflect chance to make juggs a little softer.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:50 pm #108207

fighting a swarm of juggernauts is IMO about the most fun that cult gets.

Arete · Post by **Arete** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 8:58 pm #108213

Oldman Robustin wrote:Other solutions would be to force ghosts back into bodies when sacrifices, you could also make it so that sacrificing a ghosted corpse will simply give an offer to another dead player to fill the shard as a "soul from beyond" or something. Or at least give us an empty shard for ghosted players so we can ensure the next victim actually yields you a soul.

If sacrifices get a robust fix then I could see more justificiation for tweaking the block/reflect chance to make juggs a little softer.

This would be really nice. Salt roulette is not the ideal way to balance cult's conversion potential.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:04 pm

Arete wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:Other solutions would be to force ghosts back into bodies when sacrifices, you could also make it so that sacrificing a ghosted corpse will simply give an offer to another dead player to fill the shard as a "soul from beyond" or something. Or at least give us an empty shard for ghosted players so we can ensure the next victim actually yields you a soul.

If sacrifices get a robust fix then I could see more justificiation for tweaking the block/reflect chance to make juggs a little softer.
This would be really nice. Salt roulette is not the ideal way to balance cult's conversion potential.

Salt Roulette is the worst but I should've also emphasized that the current ghost/sac interaction means that plenty of players are locked out of the round simply because they didn't realize they should've stayed in their body. Even I've been careless and ghosted when cult killed me but took its time dragging me to a sac rune, I check back after a minute and OH SHIT MY BODIES GONE GOD DAMNIT NOW IM A GHOST FOREVER FUCK I'M MY OWN WORST NIGHTMARE UGHH. Helping keep cult victims in the round seems to be a win/win for everyone.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Jul 29, 2015 9:18 pm

I agree that soul-stoning should grab ghosts.
If they really dont wanna play. they can gabble an apology and re-ghost.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:20 pm #108233

Oldman Robustin wrote:I spend half of my energy with constructs just reminding them to SHUT THE FUCK UP and not punch walls, redecorate floors, etc. while hiding in maint...

Holy shit this, it feels like I'm dealing with children 99% of the time I make constructs. I'll specifically say, 'now jugg, we don't have alot of forces right now, so we need to grow our army, just wait here patiently and don't wreck the walls'. What promptly happens almost every time? One of the juggs I make breaks the windows/walls to space, makes it a deathtrap, and/or goes YOLO rogue.

It drives me fucking nuts.

onleavedontatme · Wed Jul 29, 2015 10:29 pm

Alright I got pulling ghosts (with a pop-up) for corpses working, which antag flag should it use? BE_CULTIST? Or BE_WIZARD?

Or just the generic BE_ALIEN as with most respawn roles?

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:00 pm #108255

Kor wrote:Alright I got pulling ghosts (with a pop-up) for corpses working, which antag flag should it use? BE_CULTIST? Or BE_WIZARD?

Or just the generic BE_ALIEN as with most respawn roles?

Probably BE_CULTIST or BE_ALIEN. If not the former, then the latter.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Wed Jul 29, 2015 11:59 pm #108269

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:If they really dont wanna play.

Playing as a construct is great fun. Most of the time that people change their mind its because they're bitter assholes who don't want to assist the person who just killed them.

onleavedontatme · Thu Jul 30, 2015 3:16 am

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10930

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:27 am #108364

There is also a problem with veteran players spawning a construct army instead of converting because constructs count for the escape objective and they're easier to herd around than human cultists, who can be new and inexperienced and unreliable. I've seen a few rounds where the roundstart cultists were the only humans in a sea of constructs. One would think that the escape objective would be the one with the least amount of unnecessary slaughter but most of the times it's the exact opposite.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:31 am #108365

Why's that a problem?

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:55 am #108367

Constructs counting as escaped cultists gives you no reason to convert

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:58 am #108368

Constructs are absurdly overpowered and that's the point. They're a late-game objective for cult. You have to set up a base, round up sacrifices and converts, keep an artificer safe, wait for them to spawn shells and shards, all while hiding from security. They are fine as is.

Grazyn wrote:Constructs counting as escaped cultists gives you no reason to convert

Those sacrifices aren't just going to walk up to you. Also, constructs can't use runes or tomes.

Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:59 am

here's a balance change you should add to constructs. if a cultist says "Artificer, shell" or "Artificer, stone" more than three times within a minute and an artificer is in range, the artificer gets stunned for five seconds, is forced to make a shell/stone if possible, and gets played the "BWOINK" noise at 500% volume along with a massive red message telling them how to use their spells (IT'S IN THE SPELLS TAB RIGHT UP THERE YOU FUCKHEAD) and that they HAVE TO DO WHAT HUMAN CULTISTS SAY

fuck

Oldman Robustin · Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:29 am

New: Cultist saying "stone" "shell" etc. will force the appropriate artificer spells to trigger for all artificers on screen.

New: Cultists now have a spell called "rally constructs" that force all constructs bound to your will to move to your location, not regaining control until the spell is cancelled.

One can dream...

But yea, the whole conversion v. sac. thing is an interesting issue. On one hand, is it really that bad if we have different flavors of cult... some focused on raising an army of constructs while others basically play like a revolution with conversion runes, slowly increasing their followers in secret until they have the numbers to begin more overt actions.

Two things make conversion cult extremely unappealing to me:

1) You know how the average player can barely manage to operate a jugg/arti who literally only has to CLICK and manage like 3 buttons at most? Try to get that player to serve as an effective cultist with all the weird rune affects, obscure talisman creation methods, etc. I just end up converting way too many people who have cult disabled, have never played cult, and are essentially walking liabilities for the cult.

2) Three person conversions are a huge headache. Every single cult round I've lost recently was due to extreme stupidity from roundstart cult, CMO cultist wordlessly adding a rune to our secret teleport network that was in middle of medbay maint in a lit area (cue me teleporting into 3 sec officers while trying to get back to my construct base)... someone slipping in the hall and dropping their tome... someone leaving their tome in a maint locker... someone using a stun prod to try and get converts, dragging them near runes before their radio is even off... etc... getting two of these special individuals to join you in a conversion circle is a logistical nightmare that's more likely to have someone drag half of security to your hideout than actually convert anyone. One-man conversions were an issue because it basically became super magic revolution where you stuff your bag with talismans and convert your whole department in 30 seconds. I think at the very least moving it down to 2-man conversions makes it a little more feasible. Simplifying the rune system would also make new acolytes more appealing too. One rune for new talismans (it would work like the current teleport rune, you select IMBUE rune and then pick which sub-type of talisman, among those you have learned words for), converts automatically getting a copy of your Tome in their bag/hands/tile, etc. These would all make conversion cult more appealing and an a decent alternative to construct cult as opposed to its current state of "I would like a migraine from playing this game and cut my chances of winning as cult in half please".

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 8:52 am #108382

Oldman got it, path of least resistance is a thing, and with constructs being more reliable than converts, robust as fuck, and now (with kor's PR) even easier to make, we're gonna see a steady increase of construct-only cult rounds.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 10:07 am #108396

I have to disagree with the constructs being the path of least resistance. While they are quite powerful, there is a huge challenge in acquiring the necessary resources to build a sizable force to take over the station, while they are incredibly conspicuous. If sec catches you before you can assemble a good army, cult is done. Conversion-based cults have far more fail-safes, with other members being able to take over if somebody gets caught, in addition to being able to operate much more stealthily. Sacrifices leave blood and gibs everywhere. Conversions are totally clean.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:12 pm #108438

Luke Cox wrote:I have to disagree with the constructs being the path of least resistance. While they are quite powerful, there is a huge challenge in acquiring the necessary resources to build a sizable force to take over the station, while they are incredibly conspicuous. If sec catches you before you can assemble a good army, cult is done. Conversion-based cults have far more fail-safes, with other members being able to take over if somebody gets caught, in addition to being able to operate much more stealthily. Sacrifices leave blood and gibs everywhere. Conversions are totally clean.

When I am converted to Cult, I am usually not given a tome, papers, nor am I even told what the words are! A lot of my rounds as being forced into cultist (My BE_CULT flag is off, as I find it too difficult to be a roundstart cultist) consist of me being turned and released, where I simply go back to doing my job and giving anything I make to the cultists. I will do this until someone calls for the Nar-Sie summon or more people to stand at runes. I do not ever do the fun magic stuff, so for me, cult conversion is simply a magical Revolution/Gang. I enjoy construct based cult even less, but at least I am useful for something.

Incomptinence · Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:24 pm

Just remove bloodboil so people stop advocating making cult worthless due to it ironically devoting the game mode to a stupid screen kill rune.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:08 pm #108458

Wait people actually use bloodboil now?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:07 pm #108488

I haven't seen bloodboil used once.

Though it seems powerful in theory.

Then again half the cults don't use any magic besides convert and sacrifice anyway.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 7:57 pm #108494

I saw it used once

We thought it was a sac rune and ended up bloodboiling ourselves

Give Juggernauts HIGH HEALTH not HIGH DEFENSES. REMOVE THE FORCE THRESHOLD. As they are, it might take two eguns or five to kill them, which is retarded. Silicons are totally unable to interact with them. Force threshold is absolutely retarded because honestly if your dick is huge enough to make you want to try and extinguish the juggernaut it should damn sure be making a dent.

Fix sacrifice like Forceful said, don't really need to recap because between this, and issue report, and I'm pretty sure a thread he's written a small novel about it.

However I think saying "ballistics exist" is unfair because literally everything else in this game is balanced around fighting a station with default equipment. Security lacking lethal ballistics already means they get plowed in Nuke (Or did, prior to nodrop removal) but it really should not be an excuse for cult construct power to remain as-is. People really need to come to a consensus regarding Security and lethal bullet weapons, because we have a grand total of three in the entire department all of which come with stock nonlethal in contrast to the jackpot of energy weapons.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:06 pm #108512

And even then a shotgun is much slower to use than a lasgun or revolver because it has to be pumped. Yes, you can press 'z' repeatedly, but if you're moving around with wasd it's still significantly more distracting than a semi-automatic gun, because you have to move one of your movement fingers away to do it or use your thumb or something: anyway, it requires significantly more practice.

Plus you need cargo on board to print the slugs easily. It's not that difficult, it's just way more effort than all the default equipment is.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:22 pm #108513

combat shotguns are semi auto.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:31 pm #108514

lumipharon wrote:combat shotguns are semi auto.

Cool, they're a CARGO item.

Shotguns are bulky as fuck to reload either way, it's annoying.

Incomptinence · Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:37 pm

Saegrimr wrote:Wait people actually use bloodboil now?

Bloodboil is like a dream an ideal.

WE MUST NERF CULT BECAUSE BLOODBOIL FROLICS AMONG YONDER HILLS!

The concept barely even fits in the game even new cap bombs aren't bad enough to kill you for simply seeing them at the edge of you screen.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:42 pm #108554

Scones wrote:
lumipharon wrote:combat shotguns are semi auto.
Cool, they're a CARGO item.

Shotguns are bulky as fuck to reload either way, it's annoying.

Yeah, I was talking about the shotguns security has without ordering crates, the riot ones.

Oh, another disadvantage, you have to saw them down to make them useful with a shield of any kind, though I think there might be a saw in the transfer centre so that's not too tricky. Still another step further than than for the lasgun, though.

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

I was once the HoS and had the entire security team in the brig processing cultists suddenly explode for no reason.

I had no idea what the fuck it was until much much later.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 12:57 am #108574

Riot shotguns fit in the armor slot - so sec doesn't actually need to saw them down.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:40 am

The ghost-sac thing HAD to happen, but it was also an important pre-req to taking juggerbuddies down a notch. Now that it's easier to pump out constructs reliably, I think changing REFLECT to a flat damage block or resist rate and maybe cutting overall survivability by 10% would be appropriate.

The reflect part of the tankiness is the worst, it doesn't just send the laser bouncing off at a 90-degree angle, it sends it flying right into your face almost every shot.

onleavedontatme · Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:54 am

I'm gonna remove the reflect chance and just give them a lower chance to block any projectile, or maybe just take half damage from them.

Maybe give them another power as well instead of forceful.

Maybe wraiths can have a chance to have shots pass through them if they're in the dark so they don't die instantly to laserguns.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:13 am #108586

What about giving Chaplin some fun tools to fight the cult? Like a paladin blade, crusader armor,jew-jitsu robes,holy spells,miracles,etc.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:29 am #108589

Kor wrote:I'm gonna remove the reflect chance and just give them a lower chance to block any projectile, or maybe just take half damage from them.

Maybe give them another power as well instead of forceful.

Maybe wraiths can have a chance to have shots pass through them if they're in the dark so they don't die instantly to laserguns.

Please remove the force threshold

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:29 am #108590

Kor wrote:I'm gonna remove the reflect chance and just give them a lower chance to block any projectile, or maybe just take half damage from them.

Maybe give them another power as well instead of forceful.

Maybe wraiths can have a chance to have shots pass through them if they're in the dark so they don't die instantly to laserguns.

Please remove the force threshold

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 3:24 am #108599

If there is a force threshold, it's much lower than it used to be. I found as Juggernaut it was harder to fight someone chucking batons at me than it was to fight a person with lasers. Melee is by far the easiest way to kill a jugg in open spaces because they're very slow, which is a bit silly.

RG4 · Post by **RG4** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:31 am #108637

Cheimon wrote:If there is a force threshold, it's much lower than it used to be. I found as Juggernaut it was harder to fight someone chucking batons at me than it was to fight a person with lasers. Melee is by far the easiest way to kill a jugg in open spaces because they're very slow, which is a bit silly.

I've actually killed 5 jugs with metal rods because they can't move in zero G. It's fucking amazing.

Incomptinence · Fri Jul 31, 2015 10:45 am

How about having wraiths rely on random protection we let them summon fake wraiths that can't deal any damage to take shots for them?

onleavedontatme · Fri Jul 31, 2015 5:15 pm

RG4 wrote:because they can't move in zero G. It's fucking amazing.

Maybe if they're bad. You can push off your own forcewalls to move if you have to.

Gamarr · Post by **Gamarr** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:31 pm #108713

Its not the deflect chance in so much as the straight up damage threshold/armor they have, meaning short of lasers (bad idea) or the rare(because NO PUBLIC LATHE) shotgun slug, they are incredibly difficult to harm. More health, lower that armor just a tad so it's not so futile. Yeah, named Juggernauts, but its a tad bull when the armor negates 95% of stations methods of harming it.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Jul 31, 2015 9:56 pm #108735

Gamarr wrote:Its not the deflect chance in so much as the straight up damage threshold/armor they have, meaning short of lasers (bad idea) or the rare(because NO PUBLIC LATHE) shotgun slug, they are incredibly difficult to harm. More health, lower that armor just a tad so it's not so futile. Yeah, named Juggernauts, but its a tad bull when the armor negates 95% of stations methods of harming it.

Again, what damage threshold? It doesn't exist at the moment. Batons, and metal rods harm them just fine, and since those are 10 damage it means so do fire extinguishers, tool boxes, surgery tools, hatchets, and all sorts of other standard station tools.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:05 am #108774

I'd rather removing the reflect and buffing the base HP than anything. It's really fucking stupid when you shoot yourself or someone else to death trying to laser it, esp. since you need 3-4 just to kill one usually.

callanrockslol · Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:25 am

Manifest ghost, manifested ghost kills itself and gets sharded, more constructs. Infinite construct cycle.

Incomptinence · Sun Aug 02, 2015 11:53 am

Dead manifest ghosts leave no corpse right? I think they turn into bone piles.

Pybro · Post by **Pybro** » Sun Aug 02, 2015 3:48 pm #109051

Correct, but you can sac your manifested ghosts which nets you a shard.

Oldman Robustin · Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:41 pm

Pybro wrote:Correct, but you can sac your manifested ghosts which nets you a shard.

Is this 100% confirmed? I remember trying different strats a couple years ago and the only thing I could do was manually killed a homunculi, then clone it, THEN sac it. I definitely wouldn't have made a cloner on Russian Sat if I could just kill and sac the homunculi.

Incomptinence · Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:53 pm

The game doesn't let you sac cultists last I checked, most ridiculous way to lose cult is to convert the target then the lucky duck just blends into the crowd. Luckily there are more intuitive and less ghost reliant methods than borging to deconvert now.

Only loophole I can think of for manifests is atmos damage criting them lets them stay crit because these guys bypass it and poof if put into crit by attacks. That might be closed too.

Sun Aug 02, 2015 9:57 pm

you cant shard or sacrifice manifested ghosts because they count as cultists