Less talk more action on Synthetics, aka FUCK THE AI thread

[Oldman Robustin]

So after another round of doing nothing antagonistic for 45 minutes only to get bolted between two doors 10 seconds after I made my first (silent, no camera, suit sensor, or radio warning) antagonistic act, I've kinda reached my limit on AI bullshit. I've thought on the subject at length since I returned and offer my three most promising fixes to the overwhelming problem. Of course there are many ideas out there and few disagree that this is a big concern, but too many ideas are just too extreme for any kind of realistic adoption in the next year. Removing AI, gutting core AI functions that have existed for several years, etc. are pipe dreams for now since they're still too controversial. Instead these give some hope and love

1) Add the doorjack, a syndicate item that costs 1 TC (yes it should be that cheap, I would even argue for 0TC (but only buyable once) so that traitors just all have something available (with the risk of it being found in a search) to deal with the AI power creep. The doorjack simultaneously pulses door bolts and AI control of the door, giving you a window to escape what is, by far, the most cancerous fun-killing mechanic of the AI... "the bolts of doom". Bolting shuts down a traitors entire round, and when you have 1-3 actual hostile human-harming traitors in a round cutting one short simultaneously make traitor an extremely unattractive choice and makes security feel more like janitors who come to collect pre-sorted trash from various bolted-in rooms where the AI has caught a traitor. It may also be necessary to force on door power with this tool in-case the new AI meta becomes just depowering the APC after bolting to ensure the door can't be hacked/jacked open at all. This is a common sense addition that traitors have needing for a very, very long time. Bolting will still slow down traitors and the item will still be very risky to carry if you get searched. I don't see a downside to this item. It would be available to syndicate too so that every nukeop plan doesn't require sending the Borg to murder AI or subverting the AI.

2) Give lings a single-tile ability that's a mix between emag and doorjack. Unlike the doorjack which is still useless if the door you're interfacing with won't open for your ID (unless you subsequently emag/hack it), this power could either take the form of a sting, a spell that affects the tile in front of you, or an arm mutation that changes its effect on doors depending on your intent. There would be two possible effects/spells/stingtypes, one which cuts AI control, raises bolts, toggles power, and forces the door open... but only for a short duration (as opposed to permanent emag doorfucking) and another which has the opposite effect, it will force/keep a door shut, drop bolts, and cut AI control to give lings a chance to actually escape a lynch mobs once they've been seen. Personally I favor less form and I know one of the big problems is that with channeled vents now, just about anyone can dunk you for trying to escape with it, being able to seal a door behind me while I transform and then ventcrawl would be a huge boon. EMP is lings only answers to AI right now and it's like playing Russian roulette with your round, the AI can still bolt you in hard if it sees you doing shit before you EMP, or it can just quarantine you with door bolts in the surrounding area (this happened to me once in gravgen when the AI upload wall/door had been destroyed, I was already fleeing the scene after EMP'ing but the gravgen and all four bridge doors had been sealed in seconds using outer cameras. Or you can have the fun experience of using EMP to conceal a kill only to find that the EMP has shocked/bolted your escape route and you just essentially killed yourself. Lings need a way to deal with doors, they've gotten so much stupid complex fluff around armor, shields, etc. but no simple tool that lets the Lings have a discrete and focused ability that gives Lings a RELIABLE way to counter being seen on camera. (P.S. make engorged glands a default, lings suffer because they really only have 8 genomes because engorged glands is completely mandatory when the default is 10 chems every 40 goddamn seconds).

3) Remove AI access, or at least default access, to all department radio channels. Make it an RND/Tcomms upgrade so its still a possibility for those diehard fans, but don't let it be the default. This was the first thing I noticed when I came back and I didn't like it even when only a few Tcomms proficient AI's would do it. The original system of AI only getting to listen in on a couple channel while also requiring constant effort to maintain any kind of secret department-only speaking, was part of an elegant balance formed by the clunkiness of it. The SUPER-CONVENIENCING of every AI feature is part of the cancer that had made the AI just short of a god in most rounds. It's not that it's gained a ton of new functions, but rather those functions had historically been limited by how clunky they were to use. Now everything is able on the UI as buttons with slick interfaces available to make every conceivable AI action just 2 clicks away at most. Nobody wanted to argue with making the system less clunky, but nobody thought about what it meant for AI power either. Originally when I wanted to whisper confidential info. to security I would have to go to my core, disable my common radio microphone, enable the intercom that I had to manually set to the security channel, convey the important information, and then quickly undo all those changes so that I could continue to communicate with the common channel crew. I would only go through that effort if there was something that was extremely important and many AI's just didn't go through that effort at all. Now what we see are roundstart robocops who speak exclusively in sec and/or command channels 90% of the round, only offering brief responses to common radio questions or requests before going back to VALID HUNTER 9000 mode on sec radio.

Force the AI to go back to that old radio situation. If it needs to pass along suspicious activity or crimes-in-action then it either has to quickly shout it on common radio or take the time to PDA message someone in security (with the added risk that the person is distracted, braindead, dead, or otherwise busy and won't pass along the PDA message to sec/command radio). Part of the AI's ability to be such a massive valid hunting god is that you don't know when the AI is about to bring the shitstorm down on you. The only thing worse than being bolted in out of the blue, is being someplace where you can't be bolted in but the AI is quietly summoning 4 officers and a borg to your location. Or worse, you're in maint hiding a body and the AI has the valid brigade coming to stomp you with absolutely no warning. It just seems completely intuitive that if the AI has the ability to spot crime at almost any location, that it at least has to give that person some kind of warning that they've got a shitstorm coming their way. Syndicate radio is a work-around solution to this problem, but it only exacerbates the No-TC traitor problem and does nothing for lings and other antags. Syndie radio would still have a purpose after this change (discretely snooping sec comms will ALWAYS be useful).

[oranges]

Jesus son, put a tldr

[MrStonedOne]

an ai detector is 1 tc.

[MisterPerson]

Removing QoL features is unacceptable. Period.

If you don't want the AI to have sec radio, remove sec radio access to them entirely.

[Takeguru]

I'd be completely fine with no department radio for the AI.

Alternatively, something like what you can currently do with the borgs who want department radio like those fucking secborgs that steal a sec headset every god damn round

[Gun Hog]

Address the problem at its source. After the AI gets the nerfbat and you realize that you have the same issue, and then you go after Sec too, and you still have a problem, you will realize that we have had a dramatic reduction in chaos with changes intended to reduce that; They have been effective. If you do not believe me, call SoS down here and get him to explain the state of things that led him to take action.

There are not enough antagonists in the round, Assistant roles have been capped, and even grey-tide has essentially been squashed. I would speculate that the 'valid hunter' attitude once prevalent among only Assistants has been spread out to the entire crew to the point of normalcy.

[Scott]

Some functionalities could be Malf/Traitor only, like department radio.

[Oldman Robustin]

an ai detector is 1 tc.

Yes and that only addresses one part of one problem for one type of antag.

This small-minded thinking is what got traitors and lings where they are and is what has kept them there.

It doesn't address most of the click2win AI bolt issues since by the time the AI is looking at your doing bad stuff you aren't going to be able to outrun someone else's mouse and Ctrl+Click. It doesn't address secret communication issues because, as I just said, that's an issue afflicting almost any antag that is going against the AI. Even then your eyes aren't going to be on that multitool all shift long, you might be dragging a locker and suddenly realize the AI is on you, then it turns green again. Did the AI call for security? Was it looking for you or just passing through? Should I be running for the nearest maint or keep it cool? Am I set to arrest now? Should I throw on a mask and change IDs?

The AI detector serves a very marginal purpose that is almost outweighed by the risk of being found carrying one.

Removing QoL features is unacceptable. Period.

If you don't want the AI to have sec radio, remove sec radio access to them entirely.

Whatever floats your boat. There's plenty of QOL features that are gated and people are generally fine with it. It aligns with a long-accepted cost/benefit relationship, hey want your AI to be more robust at stomping out station enemies? Then spend some time/resources upgrading its radio access, or perhaps run around upgrading/adding maint cameras with Xray... why is one of those things perfectly innocuous and the other is a completely unacceptable change.

But if you have to be absolute about it, sure, make AI a one-channel pony unless you go to great lengths of throw it station bounced radios, etc.

[Scones]

God damn dude that's a lot of writing

It's been said before and it's been said again, we should demo a week without AI. No roundstart, no constructable. See how the gameplay of rounds changes, because I guraentee you it will be a change for the better.

[TheNightingale]

We do need a traitor/ling unbolter item, yes. This would let an antagonist escape the AI whilst still letting it stop petty brawls, annoying assistants and so on.

The AI should keep its department channels, though - the AI and Captain (if there is one, and in low-mediumpop rounds there often isn't) are the only way of reliably forwarding information between departments. It could do the same anyway with six or seven intercoms, but an AI player shouldn't be forced to memorise 144.5, 145.9, 146.1, et cetera, just to do their job.

I can guarantee that a week with no AI would result in a lot more breaking and entering (and so more work for Security, which itself is harder because there's no AI to help out). Lowpop rounds would suffer too - what if there aren't any Engineers on the manifest? The AI can't open Engineering (and secure storage) for you if they're not there.

[Scones]

This game isn't built for lowpop so frankly I don't think that should be a concern in the slightest - Not to mention that on said lowpop server, it's highly unlikely someone will spawn without maint access, and on meta maint = insuls = all access

Removal of departmental channels from AI is an interesting experiment.

[Takeguru]

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen an AI use anything but sec or command channel.
And even then, it's generally engineering to let them know that a borg is out wiring solars or something and then it's back to buddying up with sec

[Oldman Robustin]

We do need a traitor/ling unbolter item, yes. This would let an antagonist escape the AI whilst still letting it stop petty brawls, annoying assistants and so on.

The AI should keep its department channels, though - the AI and Captain (if there is one, and in low-mediumpop rounds there often isn't) are the only way of reliably forwarding information between departments. It could do the same anyway with six or seven intercoms, but an AI player shouldn't be forced to memorise 144.5, 145.9, 146.1, et cetera, just to do their job.

I can guarantee that a week with no AI would result in a lot more breaking and entering (and so more work for Security, which itself is harder because there's no AI to help out). Lowpop rounds would suffer too - what if there aren't any Engineers on the manifest? The AI can't open Engineering (and secure storage) for you if they're not there.

It only had 3 intercoms before, your voice wouldnt trigger the others, they were there for those meme triple AI rounds.

I don't think AI serves as an important conduit between departments, common, PDAs, etc. work just as fine and I don't really get the sense in my rounds of "Oh boy if AI couldn't hear all of us this job would be a lot harder". The biggest barrier that the AI breaks is between departments and sec, the AI doesn't pop in on medical radio to inform them that science has the research to upgrade their equipment. 99% of the time it's just the AI using what it hears to tip off security or passing along security chatter to a relevant head when the HoS/Cap is too busy/lazy/incompetent to do it themselves.

While I'd totally be fine with trying no AI week, it would just affirm what we already know. That you have much more leeway as a traitor/ling without the Omniscient Head of Valids staring you down, but people also get frustrated when their doorknob doesn't work and sec will be traumatized by having to actually search the station instead of just saying "AI TRACK X" and then giving up if they're off camera. It's never going to transition into a full-time thing where we become a no-AI server, so testing it for a week doesn't really get us anywhere.

[lumipharon]

Remove AI for one week. Just one, and you'll see the huge effect on antags.
If I'm wrong after a week, everyone can point and laugh at me, and I'll say sorry to the 1 person per round who didn't get to use their favorite role.

[invisty]

Has there been consideration for making the AI interact with the station through an avatar? I think something like 343 guilty spark from Halo would be an interesting thing to try. Make it tough as nails and have no environmental interaction beyond what the AI already has.

[TheWiznard]

The AI should keep its department channels, though - the AI and Captain (if there is one, and in low-mediumpop rounds there often isn't) are the only way of reliably forwarding information between departments. It could do the same anyway with six or seven intercoms, but an AI player shouldn't be forced to memorise 144.5, 145.9, 146.1

As an AI you can click on tcomm servers and see what the channel is so you don't have to remember them all the time. or just use a script, but I was never really into radio scripts except for *tsshk* sup meatbags over *tsshk*

I wouldn't mind losing the department chat as AI, I've mainly been playing AI/borg even before department chat and it wasn't a hassle imo to change an intercomm to a department's chat. In fact I'd only ever set one up for security or command. I do like departmental chat because it lets me interact with the people playing more and informing them about things going on/asking if they need something. I wouldn't have a fit about losing it.
edit: and when there was no ai department chat, every ai myself included would just set all the station radio comms to the private ai channel mic only, and it got the job done.
edit2: I think some thread already discussed this but I wonder how it would be with less cameras around the outerlying areas/departments; ie near maint doors/department maint doors. I also think that roundstart way more cameras should start disabled, I don't think it's been changed but currently only 1-4 cameras break roundstart and 99% of the time they are in stupid areas no one even uses like art storage or something.

[Cheimon]

I enjoy playing AI though I can imagine how it's a frustration to some players.

A doorjack and relevant abilities for changelings and traitors (group antagonists tend not to have such big problems with the AI, wizards are already able to teleport away) seem entirely reasonable. Personally, I think just making the P-AI do this much much faster (and through bolts) would be a fun way to do this, but it's reasonable to have a traitor item/stings as well.

If you want another way to nerf them without making them clunky, force them to leave the camera light on. That way, if they're watching you'll see that the lighting in the room has increased, so long as you're not working in perfect light already. It would be a subtle change, and a nice flavourful one.

However, removing department radio is not a fun idea. I use those all the time as AI: to communicate specific departmental concerns without having them all over the common channel. Obviously because asimov is "stop murder: the lawset" that does involve a fair bit of communication with security, but it also means chats with science, engineering, and medical whenever there are relevant concerns there. I can question medical about the diseases they're making or the medicines they have or about setting up cryo without the rest of the station weighing in on the discussion and without the clunkiness of having to pda individuals or appear on holopads with their limited range. I can ask engineers about the setup of the engine discreetly to make sure changes they've done are intentional, and alert them if they're not, without causing mass hysteria. I can alert engineers and atmos techs to relevant problems to fix without spamming common. I can assist and get assistance from scientists if there's a fire in toxins or loose slimes. All of this is much more annoying over common or much clunkier with the other private methods. It also means if I'm helping security over the radio and you've got a key to that channel, you know exactly what I and they know. Powerful stuff.

Furthermore, I can't see any major advantage to the antagonist over the AI not having departmental channels, except perhaps that the AI is now hamstrung if it wants to communicate effectively with security or command as a department, and not as individuals. Antagonists know the departmental channels aren't secure, and group antagonists all have their own special channels, which are more visible to members and impossibly opaque to those not in the know. Changelings, gangs, and cults all have these: the only exceptions are revolution, which is generally so big you can 'go loud' or so obvious you don't need to, and wizard, which is almost impossible for the AI to hurt anyway.

If you remove departmental channels, you make it way more clunky and much less fun. You also remove a good chunk of gameplay options from the AI that aren't related to stopping murder. AIs and security will interact closely no matter what because that's what the asimov lawset encourages.

[newfren]

I can count on one hand the amount of times I've seen an AI use anything but sec or command channel.
And even then, it's generally engineering to let them know that a borg is out wiring solars or something and then it's back to buddying up with sec

AI quite often pop into whatever department's radio I'm working in (usually service or medical) to help out newer players with treatment or cooking or whatever, or to help correct people when they say something wrong.

That said something obviously has to be done about the AI. Whenever I roll traitor the only thing I really ever do nowadays is revolver + maint autolathe to gun down a few people, or subverting the AI because of how ridiculously powerful it is.

[Cheimon]

Yeah, that too: the AI really isn't hard to subvert, unless it's hidden the board (unlikely) then if you can steal an EVA suit/tools, you can steal the AI. Just go into tech storage from space.

[JackHunt]

Increase the traitor count and make anti-AI items more available or more visible. This dovetails nicely into the "more chaos, more lethality" desire and doesn't mess with any of the important AI functions.

Perhaps separate the emag into two items, one for doors and one for everything else. Make the door one 1 TC. That plus the AI detector makes your round easy and straightforward. Better yet, make the detector both give a message in chat to the holder (have it go buzz or something) as well as have it go off in the second or two an AI is tracking you before they can actually see you.

[PKPenguin321]

tl;dr of the OP (just for you, oranges):

1. give traitors/lings an item (0/1 TCs for traitors, if 0 then you can only buy it once) that opens doors, even if they're bolted/depowered, for a few seconds

2. remove AI being able to speak on departmental radio channels

[Amelius]

SoS slashed the antag rate by about 30%, and a year ago we replaced linear scaling with a logarithmic-esque thing to compensate for greytiders.

Unfortunately, greyshirts and greytiding is basically dead from rules, regulations, and mechanics (lack of mid-round assistants, assistant caps, etc.), so that compensation just dries the station up of antagonism. Really, just pad up the antag rates again to start with, and things should improve marginally. You could give every traitor a fucking pulse rifle, but that still won't make the unrobust robust and able to take on part of the crew. That said, the more antags, the more distraction, and the more manpower is split between each report, meaning it's much easier for them in basically every sense.

[Incomptinence]

I do believe the door jack would just be a more situational C4. Maybe allow one free C4 sampler for dummies or poor traitors purchasing our overpriced as fuck mostly impotent traitor weapons.

As for lings it isn't the AI's fault an antagonist with no terrain modifying powers is easy to catch once revealed. As soon as a ling is under pressure it is all about having lesser form or not unless they are carrying the entire armoury. A lesser form escape is basically throwing in the towel though.

The important thing about the higher traitor count is traitors act as distractions for each other, one that got away syndrome or as coders who hate players so much they want a 50 player or under limit say it "chaos".

[Steelpoint]

C4 makes a huge noise and makes a big hole, its not subtle and is only single use. Whereas a doorjack would be silent, quicker and not attract everyone's attention.

[Incomptinence]

If you need a door jack aren't you discovered anyway? The intended purpose is to escape a bolt down. Covert means is more a concern for say break ins. If you need to bust so many bolted doors unless the jack is an instantaneous and/or infinite use nonsense you are probably slowed down enough to be caught anyway.

If you do cope with doors what's the next step engineering borgs plopping down walls on the other side of your cordon? A table being built to slow you down? The door jack is pretty situational and flawed. In most soft areas of the station a syndicate toolbox would handle the same job with more flexibility by just letting you go around the door in any place outside the Rwalls of secure areas or bloody science (so many rwalls).

[Takeguru]

It's better than having nothing though, especially if it's free/incredibly cheap

[Incomptinence]

Toolbox costs 1 and let's you get around doors in non-Rwall land. C4 is also 1 telecrystal also and can get you out of basically anywhere but is a one shot.

If the AI is being a real cunt it is basically time to remember your malf lessons and go around the door if needed. Not to say traitors are fine they just fare much better than lings.

I can understand how it can become a big problem in say science where it is basically a near perfect ring of Rwalls and a few other areas.

[lumipharon]

bolting and depowering doors will slow you right down - no way you're escaping before sec can jump on your ass.

[Incomptinence]

Unless there are Rwalls all over the drat place most areas can be broken out of pretty easily through glass/grills and regular walls if you have the tools and for traitors those tools are just a single point away.

Sure time is an issue but we aren't arguing for an instant escape even if we do get the doorjack in... right? Not saying a jack would be overpowering I just think it would be in a race compared to current break out times of our other more flexible options, it could be faster and still not be worth it compared to a toolbox and a C4 is still more flexible even if it can't gib people any more. If it is a close race for preferred 1 TC pick why should the doorjack be the free option? Is it just because it is new?

[Oldman Robustin]

Toolbox costs 1 and let's you get around doors in non-Rwall land. C4 is also 1 telecrystal also and can get you out of basically anywhere but is a one shot.

If the AI is being a real cunt it is basically time to remember your malf lessons and go around the door if needed. Not to say traitors are fine they just fare much better than lings.

I can understand how it can become a big problem in say science where it is basically a near perfect ring of Rwalls and a few other areas.

Toolbox getting insulated is a huge deal (yours truly made the issue report that got it added) and a very nice improvement but it's not going to cut it as an anti-AI tool. Especially since an AI will definitely consider depowering a room with bolted doors if it sees you trying to hack.

Plus like someone mentioned the 15+ seconds even a fast hack will take (you memorized wires in advance, have hotkeys ready and toolbelt open) will drastically reduce your chance of escaping. If you have to spawn the box just to help you get out and you haven't tested wires yet, it's pretty much over.

Also "doorjack in" isn't really a thing unless you're dealing with those shitty AI's who pre-emptively bolt/stealthbolt areas you should have access to, in which case doorjack plays its role by simply letting you counterplay that crap. It doesn't magically open doors like the emag does, you'll still need to hack/emag/etc. if you want to get in somewhere you dont have access.

[Incomptinence]

Oh so it is even worse than I though it was? So in case of de-powered door a player without a crowbar is still trapped?

I am not advocating hacking a door even with the new gloves I know about depowered bolted doors.

If the area is not secure just whip your tools out and go AROUND the door. If we assume sec response times are always near instant nothing will ever be enough.

[Miauw]

i ded pls nerf

[Scones]

i ded pls nerf

Retarded shitpost that's probably indicative of the poster himself not even glancing at anything in the thread

[Actionb]

Here we go again.
Implement a doorjack if it keeps you from nerfing something yet again. It should probably be slower than a robust hacking attempt, after all, you are cranking open a heavy duty airlock.

I can't remember when airlock shortcuts were added to AIs. Must have been ages ago. In other words: it pretty much has always cockblocked traitors. If this is an issue now, then something else around traitors has changed.

Maybe it's the traitor ratio? After all, more traitors mean more busy work for AIs - so that could be it.

Or have the QoL things that were added to the AI buffed its power dramatically? If you're the valid hunting type AI player, you used to have an intercom tuned to the sec channel anyway. Or just yell out the nefarious deeds of that criminal scumbag over the radio and let the tide take care of it. If the AI has bolted you down, you've already been caught - no comms nerf will fix that. And nothing stops you from having all intercom windows open and minimized for quick channel switching... let alone comms scripts. So this isn't it.

Have traitor items become weaker? Nothing that interacts with airlocks/AIs has been changed to my knowledge. Not it.

Is it just somebody making a rage post over having been caught red-handed by a supercomputer? Yes. Definitely.

As much as I appreciate your attempts at making this game more exciting, Oldman, most of your posts are influenced by your very own view of how the game should be played and carry a distinct 'I lost but I should have won!' attitude. I was observing the round in which the incident in the OP took place, and you were simply unlucky. A traitor AI pawned you in order to appear asimov - same shit could have happened two years ago.

tldr for miauw & co :^) xDD : add a doorjack or raise traitor ratios, don't nerf the AI for ruining an unlucky/unprepared antag.

[CPTANT]

You getting fucked over by the AI while trying to release the singularity could have been easily prevented by buying a 1 tc AI detector.


Just saying.

[TheNightingale]

What if agent cards, rather than making you untrackable, made you invisible to the AI? And digital camouflage did the same?

[Incomptinence]

We have something similar for cult runes I think.

[Cheimon]

We have something similar for cult runes I think.

Correct, AI can't see runes. Personally I'd rather players just got used to disabling cameras now it's so much easier.

...

Incidentally, if you do shove this 'doorjack' thing in it will become absurdly easy to steal the AI upload board. Is that good? Is that bad? Dunno, but it's definitely a change. Same for anything else where bolts might be the expected barrier, like the vault or (to a smaller extent) the upload room.

[Oldman Robustin]

While we're reminiscing about AI, let's be real and acknowledge that screwing with intercoms was about a 30/70 situation at most (40% using intercoms to be on sec), because of the aforementioned difficulties (you had to manually switch off common mic, turn on sec mic, otherwise you broadcast your confidential sec info to everyone and give sec double-message spam) only the most dedicated AI's would actually go through with that trouble. SS13 has always been about a spectrum of behavior and activity, even the worst game modes in their worst forms could still occasionally produce a fun, interesting round... and sometimes the best game modes in their best form could produce completely unredeeming rounds.

Yes the most aggressive of AI players were very scary back then, but now that level of power is in the hands of even the greenest of AI's. It's one thing to have 1-3 AI players who can crush traitors with a crew monitor constantly open on a split screen, constant flipping to unknowns, frequently checking sec records and tracking any wanted crew, etc. It's another thing when that becomes EVERY ROUND. Now you can turn on security overlay, click the crew monitor without even needing to click the computer, effortlessly read and communicate on all channels, etc. have made valid-hunting antag-crushers an effortless endeavor for even novice AI's. And as part of a chicken-egg relationship, the AI personalities have all drifted toward that valid hunting mentality, when I first started playing here... these were some of my top frustrations with AI:

1) It would virtually never allow law changes, you could come up with a half-dozen semi-convincing reasons for adding a new law and the AI's would just flat out refuse any changes unless you showed up with every head of staff and a borg to ensure asimov integrity was maintained. Seriously "Bring a second head with you" was a standard AI practice for law changes and a bolted upload was the norm. Now robocop might as well be the default as captain strolls into upload without even needing to explain himself the vast majority of the time.

2) There were many heated fights, ban requests, etc. over AI's who would crack down on security. Even one officer executing a prisoner would often get the whole brig locked down and the AI refusing to budge, declaring security harmful and basically treating them all like antags to either be arrested by secborgs (and back then a single secborg wouldn't even have much difficulty in dunking security by itself) or quarantined with bolts and powered down APC's. Now you can easily murder on camera as sec and at most a present borg will trying to drag the victim away or the harmer will be stunned and told to stop, but once the deed is done the AI will just go back to pointing out the next victim to be harmed by security.

3) Hulks were human, Lings required more than just one man's word to execute, and AI's were very nitpicky about any new laws... always looking for flaws that allowed them to ignore/bypass them. This was also before armblades when lings would almost never present any kind of external evidence of their alien nature.

These are just some of the big changes in AI culture, and while much of it was just frustrating to deal with (AI's doing linguistic gymnastics or being selectively retarded in order to find a way to ignore your law change, "WIZARD UNDEFINED, LAW INVALID"), it's just an illustration of how the role has changed over the years and is now accepted as a giant antag-dunking machine.

@Cheimon

Disabling cameras was a much needed change but its still got issues, Wide blocks of static are often just as likely to get a sec raid on your department/office as the AI actually seeing you haul a body away from medbay.

I don't anticipate doorjacking IN as much of an issue, it wouldn't be absurdly easy to get an AI upload board since you'd still need to either have default access (CE/RD/Cap pretty much) to open secure tech or otherwise just hack the door open... which is really all that's ever been required of subverters.

[MrStonedOne]

It doesn't address most of the click2win AI bolt issues since by the time the AI is looking at your doing bad stuff you aren't going to be able to outrun someone else's mouse and Ctrl+Click. It doesn't address secret communication issues because, as I just said, that's an issue afflicting almost any antag that is going against the AI. Even then your eyes aren't going to be on that multitool all shift long, you might be dragging a locker and suddenly realize the AI is on you, then it turns green again. Did the AI call for security? Was it looking for you or just passing through? Should I be running for the nearest maint or keep it cool? Am I set to arrest now? Should I throw on a mask and change IDs?

But if you have to be absolute about it, sure, make AI a one-channel pony unless you go to great lengths of throw it station bounced radios, etc.

All of those issues were issues that existed one way or another and aren't new.

It doesn't address most of the click2win AI bolt issues since by the time the AI is looking at your doing bad stuff you aren't going to be able to outrun someone else's mouse and Ctrl+Click.

This has existed in ais for 4+ years.

It doesn't address secret communication issues because, as I just said, that's an issue afflicting almost any antag that is going against the AI.

See, this one is kinda funny, before we had ai department radios, the ability to hear department radios was gated behind rather or not you knew about gunhog's script, or decided to make your own. Even before this, you could get the same effect by configuring that ai custom intercom to security then using .i to control rather or not you spoke to common.

Even without that, pda communicated raids happened.

Even then your eyes aren't going to be on that multitool all shift long, you might be dragging a locker and suddenly realize the AI is on you, then it turns green again. Did the AI call for security? Was it looking for you or just passing through? Should I be running for the nearest maint or keep it cool? Am I set to arrest now? Should I throw on a mask and change IDs?

Again, This was never not the case, Your OP made it sound like recent changes to the ai made it super robust, but it really didn't, AIs could hear all channels or at least sec if they wanted to, it was either a tcom script away, or a wiki lookup for the radio codes away. Removing that gate made sense.

And the action buttons didn't make them faster either, that actually nerfed them, because before you could type "track first_name" and it would open the track window already focused on that person's entry. where as now you have to move your hand to your mouse, move down to the icons, hover over them because you don't remember what one is track with camera, click it once you find it, move your mouse back to the list find and click who you want (maybe moving your hand back to the keyboard to type the first letter).

All and all, the ai button UI was a nerf

[Gun Hog]

1) It would virtually never allow law changes, you could come up with a half-dozen semi-convincing reasons for adding a new law and the AI's would just flat out refuse any changes unless you showed up with every head of staff and a borg to ensure asimov integrity was maintained. Seriously "Bring a second head with you" was a standard AI practice for law changes and a bolted upload was the norm. Now robocop might as well be the default as captain strolls into upload without even needing to explain himself the vast majority of the time.

Policy issue. AIs began to be scolded for refusing to unbolt for the Captain/RD, as they had default access. The same thing happened with the Vault and EVA. AIs being unhelpful to the crew got hammered out.

2) There were many heated fights, ban requests, etc. over AI's who would crack down on security. Even one officer executing a prisoner would often get the whole brig locked down and the AI refusing to budge, declaring security harmful and basically treating them all like antags to either be arrested by secborgs (and back then a single secborg wouldn't even have much difficulty in dunking security by itself) or quarantined with bolts and powered down APC's. Now you can easily murder on camera as sec and at most a present borg will trying to drag the victim away or the harmer will be stunned and told to stop, but once the deed is done the AI will just go back to pointing out the next victim to be harmed by security.
The is very much true. I used to do this as well, and I learned the hard way, even before the policy protecting Sec was put in place, that people seek any excuse to valid-kill the AI, and they WILL declare you rogue and try to shut you down for this. Breaking your laws in order to resist may result in a ban.

3) Hulks were human, Lings required more than just one man's word to execute, and AI's were very nitpicky about any new laws... always looking for flaws that allowed them to ignore/bypass them. This was also before armblades when lings would almost never present any kind of external evidence of their alien nature. Hulks are not currently considered human, but it is VERY risky to laser or door-crush one without crew approval, lest you be declared rogue. AIs are supposed to be nitpicky and literal about their laws, they are roleplaying a computer. It is fine as long as they remain consistent with it during the round. Also, it is not just good form to require proof of non-humanness, but a requirement. Failure to prove a state of being non-human is grounds for a ban if you kill a human just because the HoS told you he was a changeling.

These are just some of the big changes in AI culture, and while much of it was just frustrating to deal with (AI's doing linguistic gymnastics or being selectively retarded in order to find a way to ignore your law change, "WIZARD UNDEFINED, LAW INVALID"), it's just an illustration of how the role has changed over the years and is now accepted as a giant antag-dunking machine.

Valid-hunting is a symptom of the entire crew, not just the AI. This behavior noticeably shifted around the times where murderbone and greytide were at their highest, and steps were made to pull them back. More rules governing player behavior results in more intense outbursts when the players are given fewer opportunities.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

What if agent cards, rather than making you untrackable, made you invisible to the AI? And digital camouflage did the same?

I'm working on a system right now for digital camo doing this!

Agent cards, maybe not - 2TC in exchange for being totally invisible to the AI is a big deal!

[Celdur]

I miss the old AI that was more worried and skeptical of the crew rather than hunting for antags.
Well, I don't miss the part where they would argue with the CE for 15 minutes before finally letting him into EVA to get metal sheets.
But yknow, everything in moderation.

What caused that shift in playstyles anyway?
I know everyone bitched at the AI for not letting anyone in AI upload ever for any reason, or bolting down all of sec because a officer sneezed on a prisoner.
But instead of just kicking it down a notch it was just dropped entirely?
I think there is a middle ground here that we just completely flew passed when this shift occurred.

I don't remember AI's constantly bolting down antags back then either, even though they could have easily done that. even without the shortcuts.
I guess back then AI's were worried about sec beating the antag to pulp so they would just let them off the hook and try to save whoever the victim was.
And even though that wasn't really a perfect system, I prefer it over the AI and sec being all buddy buddy all the time.

[Actionb]

We're getting into the realms of subjective opinions. Some say AIs were not quite as much after validsalad as they are today. Others say that nothing has changed or at least it has always been this bad and that it depends on the player behind the AI more than anything. That includes me. Opinions do not make good arguments.

What's not an opinion? That the AI is immensly powerful in stopping whoever it likes.
Can this be remedied with syndicate tools?
Does it even need to be fixed? Sometimes you just lose in SS13.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

I miss the old AI that was more worried and skeptical of the crew rather than hunting for antags.
Well, I don't miss the part where they would argue with the CE for 15 minutes before finally letting him into EVA to get metal sheets.
But yknow, everything in moderation.

What caused that shift in playstyles anyway?
I know everyone bitched at the AI for not letting anyone in AI upload ever for any reason, or bolting down all of sec because a officer sneezed on a prisoner.
But instead of just kicking it down a notch it was just dropped entirely?
I think there is a middle ground here that we just completely flew passed when this shift occurred.

I don't remember AI's constantly bolting down antags back then either, even though they could have easily done that. even without the shortcuts.
I guess back then AI's were worried about sec beating the antag to pulp so they would just let them off the hook and try to save whoever the victim was.
And even though that wasn't really a perfect system, I prefer it over the AI and sec being all buddy buddy all the time.

I think cause 1) We banned all the 'neutral' AI players for always being in the way and
2) We gave the AI roundstart command and sec access, along with the ability to use securitrons as vicious little unstunnable porto-cops

[Oldman Robustin]

It doesn't address most of the click2win AI bolt issues since by the time the AI is looking at your doing bad stuff you aren't going to be able to outrun someone else's mouse and Ctrl+Click. It doesn't address secret communication issues because, as I just said, that's an issue afflicting almost any antag that is going against the AI. Even then your eyes aren't going to be on that multitool all shift long, you might be dragging a locker and suddenly realize the AI is on you, then it turns green again. Did the AI call for security? Was it looking for you or just passing through? Should I be running for the nearest maint or keep it cool? Am I set to arrest now? Should I throw on a mask and change IDs?

But if you have to be absolute about it, sure, make AI a one-channel pony unless you go to great lengths of throw it station bounced radios, etc.

All of those issues were issues that existed one way or another and aren't new.

It doesn't address most of the click2win AI bolt issues since by the time the AI is looking at your doing bad stuff you aren't going to be able to outrun someone else's mouse and Ctrl+Click.

This has existed in ais for 4+ years.

It doesn't address secret communication issues because, as I just said, that's an issue afflicting almost any antag that is going against the AI.

See, this one is kinda funny, before we had ai department radios, the ability to hear department radios was gated behind rather or not you knew about gunhog's script, or decided to make your own. Even before this, you could get the same effect by configuring that ai custom intercom to security then using .i to control rather or not you spoke to common.

Even without that, pda communicated raids happened.

Even then your eyes aren't going to be on that multitool all shift long, you might be dragging a locker and suddenly realize the AI is on you, then it turns green again. Did the AI call for security? Was it looking for you or just passing through? Should I be running for the nearest maint or keep it cool? Am I set to arrest now? Should I throw on a mask and change IDs?

Again, This was never not the case, Your OP made it sound like recent changes to the ai made it super robust, but it really didn't, AIs could hear all channels or at least sec if they wanted to, it was either a tcom script away, or a wiki lookup for the radio codes away. Removing that gate made sense.

And the action buttons didn't make them faster either, that actually nerfed them, because before you could type "track first_name" and it would open the track window already focused on that person's entry. where as now you have to move your hand to your mouse, move down to the icons, hover over them because you don't remember what one is track with camera, click it once you find it, move your mouse back to the list find and click who you want (maybe moving your hand back to the keyboard to type the first letter).

All and all, the ai button UI was a nerf

One of the themes of this thread is that we've spent years sitting and bitching about this without doing anything. Removal of parapens and parasting about 2 years ago was the biggest tipping point because it got rid of the only reliable tool the 2 most common antags had to attack and kill on camera without the AI slam-dunking them.

I'm not even going to pretend this is the worst point for traitors here. The reduction of the traitor ratio was a huge blow, but I think even during the higher ratio period we had a time where traitors suffered more. I was (to my knowledge) the reason we expanded maint in the first place, because before that Box's maint was literally a bunch of straight lines with a few side rooms along the way... if you put one officer in each maint section and had them sweep you'd have the entire off-camera section of the station cleared in like 30 seconds, it was awful and probably the low points of traitors here. When I proposed expanding maint there were naysayers back then too.

I'm not sure where you got the impression my OP has been about recent changes when the theme of the thread is "we've talked about this shit forever, let's do something uncontroversial to try and fix it". During the Magni Tcomms Dept. Radio period you still had a minority of AI's who fit the bill for the current metagame, but it was still tolerable to most people since they were just a prominent minority... people just assumed they were better at finding antags, etc. The reality is that AI sitting on sec channel chatting privately with them is one of the single greatest strengths the AI could hope for, so many times security was too reluctant to say "AI TRACK JOHN SMITH" because it would tip-off John that sec was coming for them, and sec radio would be completely silent to the AI. I play AI, I play security, I also watch others do the same... easy convenient default sec comms has had a massive effect on making every single AI the true head of security who can start tracking the moment someone says "So-and-So just shot me with a syringe, arrest them", and 10 seconds later firelocks (or just hallway door bolts) are down in engihall as the AI barks their location on sec radio. The inconvenience and delay in communications was a necessary part of making the AI more tangential to station security rather than making it their raison d'être.

If there's something you don't like about these proposals then say it, because trying to argue against my narrative for why traitors/lings are in their current state doesn't mean much when everyone still agrees that AI too strong, traitorling too weak and my proposals directly go after AI as Valid Hunter 9000 while giving two of the most common antags (well maybe not ling anymore, but that's precisely because of AI shit) a way to give a finger to the AI and create more interaction between traitorlings and security where the fight is a little more manageable than just staring at red bolts knowing that you're about to go out like John Marston in Red Dead Redemption (except you wont get a single shot off). Most controversial appears to be Department radio removal but these items are not interdependent, a doorjack and nothing else is better than nothing at all... but all three of these changes would do wonders for changing the metagame so that you don't feel 100% safe as long as youre on camera.

---

Regarding the AI personality stuff, ease of use I think made it so that people who wanted to dunk antags but didn't want to have to learn all the AI nuances had their barrier to entry massively reduced, along with AI policy decisions that greatly discouraged obstinate or rule stickler AI's. Getting caught on camera as a traitor didn't mean as much when the AI wouldn't lock down an entire department when someone emags a door, rather it would report "door hacking" or something vague and wait for direct orders for how to deal with it. I'm not saying that this is the CORRECT or INCORRECT way to play AI, but rather that AI culture has gone hand in hand with AI enhancements to greatly increase the role of AI's in stomping out antags. We have to acknowledge that the current AI metagame is to sit on security radio all shift long and ensure that anyone who does anything against the law on cameras is swiftly tracked and trapped for security.

[Cik]

touch traitor ratio first

doorjacks sure why not, i don't mind

on AI behavior: it's true that the culture has shifted, i've noticed it actually that i've been opposing security less. however you must understand that for most round the AI is mostly impotent. for anything but tatorling you can't really do much unless you have a secborg army.

rev/gang are basically shitshows who no one can manage, least of all stop security and whoever else from killing the fuck out of each other

i think one of the real problems is that traitors can't hear sec. you see, traitors and sec are supposed to be on neutral ground in terms of orders as subcategory "human" but traitors can't hear sec's orders, so they can't be countermanded. so when sec says "bolt him down" i have to do it. the traitor rarely countermands. generally i try to help nonharmful traitors out as it's likely to prevent harm in the long run. only if they are a clear threat do i even report their whereabouts at all. i don't pay close attention to AI behavior that isn't me, however i never report someone interfering with station technology if it isn't something dangerous like atmos or singulo. lol someone emags a door who the fuck cares? not me.

if you wanted maybe you could try to wrench the culture back in certain places to the way it used to be. that would help a little i think.

just for god's sake don't bring back roundstart eva/bridge/tech storage/gravgen/tcomms/engineering/atmos bolting, that shit was fucked

edit: another thing that could be tried is interacting with the AI more as traitors. i know i've helped several people that needed to steal things. asimovian disregard for material objects makes the AI an effective emag if you have a PDA. chief engineer's rarely check chatlogs.

maybe it doesn't happen more often because people have tried it and gotten screwed, but if you think about it an asimovian AI really should be trying to prevent security from noticing nonharmful crimes; if security doesn't notice, no one is harmed. if they do, it's possible that at some point the traitor will be killed. the action should be clear then.

the ideal AI is far more neutral than the current one, i think. maybe a chat message like the secborg gets these days. your purpose isn't to step on the throat of anyone unless they're doing it in turn.

[imblyings]

Just remove ai if you're that salty about it, I've already stopped playing ai ever since some one thought adding artificial lag on top of normal lag was a good idea for tracking people.

I guess i still feel sympathy for the role, if you're going to continuously chip away at what swings between s a demanding and boring role, just axe it or require it to be made mid round instead of slowly killing it.

[oranges]

I honestly agree with robustin now that I have had time to digest his points

I don't like the AI as a game mechanic anymore, and I don't think anything would be lost if it goes, most of the time it's just doing everyone elses job for them.

[firecage]

>IB4 traitor ling items.

What would you guys think of a traitor item similar to the one ability that Lings gets, where they can camouflage themselves from the AI.