Two controversial suggested changes

[J_Madison]

I don't have much of a history with /tg/ and I'm sure as hell foreign.

I've listened to the IRC and checked on the thread, and I keep scratching my head at certain features still in the game that other tg codebases have long removed/patched.
I come from a different server, with different playerbases no doubt just as prone to powergaming and I guess I'm here to give some feedback on some things I scratch my head at.

DAS and DAA viruses
These viruses really exist only to serve genetics. I hear the virologists are getting lazy now that everyone rushes DAA to master genetics in minutes.

To quote someone I know as a very robust virologist, "Everyone just powergames DAA into superpowers then fuck off to validhunt or break into places with hulk, xray, tk and cr".

Removing DAA and DAS would greatly change how MedBay is played (genetics actually requires "skill" [RNG], virology actually makes a good virus instead of DAA).


Upgraded crusher
Many people love this as it creates infinite resources for infinite fun.

The biggest problem I saw with the crusher was how everyone rushed to upgrade the crusher then spent 10 minutes with an autolathe spamming Z to drop bullets (and recycle the bullet box for a 100% refund). Then some assclown decided it was fun to rush HONK mechs and Phazons at roundstart. I see tgstation's crusher been greatly nerfed with the removal of diamonds and inability to make uranium, but the upgraded crusher is a little too much, especially when cargo can infinitely use the crusher for infinite plasma and get infinite cargo points or science can give every assistant a free Metal-glass mech (APLU, oddy).

I fear the day science makes a rush to upgrade the crusher, then effectively spends the rest of the round abusing the free resources. And mining doesn't benefit because miners are practically forced to mine diamond and uranium exclusively.

[Luke Cox]

Infinite crusher simply has to go. A fully upgraded crusher should give you the metals the item is made up of, and cheaper components give you 20% less, 30% less, etc. As for the DNA virus, get rid of the superpower one but keep the disability one. Traitor virologists need to be able to have some fun.

[Cheimon]

Yeah, the superpower one seems literally only to be useful for people messing around (and is therefore pretty annoying when a virologist releases it). Random X-ray makes it impossible to reliably hide, random TK makes it easy for people to temporarily mess with you (but not easy to do anything practical), and random hulk leads to a lot of break ins, break outs (ie, security can't brig anyone with the disease, either has to execute or let go, since there tends to be no vaccine), and random instances of "can't fire my gun, shit".

Not particularly fun except for people to bust through walls in an uncontrollable fashion. Oh, and for geneticists to rush to the good powers.

[J_Madison]

Infinite crusher simply has to go. A fully upgraded crusher should give you the metals the item is made up of, and cheaper components give you 20% less, 30% less, etc. As for the DNA virus, get rid of the superpower one but keep the disability one. Traitor virologists need to be able to have some fun.

Without a doubt removing the fully upgraded crusher will, pun unintented, crush the playstyles of scientists that are unable to play normally.

This goes the same for DAA.
As for DAS, I do not suggest keeping it because it's gimmicky at best. It still can be used to cheat genetics albeit much slower.

Traitor virologists shouldn't rely on much a... weak virus (I've seen real doomsday viruses) and changelings can instead use the "secret spray technique" to make their stings.

Yeah, the superpower one seems literally only to be useful for people messing around (and is therefore pretty annoying when a virologist releases it). Random X-ray makes it impossible to reliably hide, random TK makes it easy for people to temporarily mess with you (but not easy to do anything practical), and random hulk leads to a lot of break ins, break outs (ie, security can't brig anyone with the disease, either has to execute or let go, since there tends to be no vaccine), and random instances of "can't fire my gun, shit".

Not particularly fun except for people to bust through walls in an uncontrollable fashion. Oh, and for geneticists to rush to the good powers.

Virus has no real goodsides bar cheating genetics and ending geneticists' jobs (because since when did geneticists actually handle cloning) and causing medbay staff to run around with superpowers.

[Saegrimr]

Aide is fucking cancer and I hate when it spreads around. "Beneficial" my ass when I random turn into a hulk and can't use shit/accidentally punch a wall down.

[J_Madison]

Aide is fucking cancer and I hate when it spreads around. "Beneficial" my ass when I random turn into a hulk and can't use shit/accidentally punch a wall down.

You know what's cancer?

Geneticists that give everyone superpowers after getting Aide.

Nothing says annoying when everyone has xray and everyone has hulk.

I've seen 3 people beat a 16 man cult.
I've seen 1 person beat traitor AI.
I've seen the same traitor AI get beaten by the same people five games in a row.

Aide honestly, needs to go once people know they can get superpowers in 5 minutes.

[PKPenguin321]

Unfortunately DAA probably shouldn't go until genetics is made not-shit

[newfren]

As a pretty common viro player, I'd be a bit annoyed if DAA goes. It's one of the tools traitor viro can use to turn themselves superhuman, which I find tends to be the better use of virology as a traitor than releasing dangerous diseases.

It's also one of the things virology can do when the station is arming up to combat dangerous threats - oh we're fighting a traitorous AI? Have some DAA on top of the regular beneficial diseases.

I don't think that sharing DAA with genetics is even a problem to be honest! It's intra-department cooperation that leads to faster genetics - just like some geneticists get mutagen from the chemists to fast track towards superpowers. You also have to take into account the time it takes the virologist to get to DAA (a plasma-tier symptom), the time it takes for the viro to get sneezing off of DAA (usually not long, but it's there), and the time for the disease to mature inside a monkey (DAA forces the minimum speed for maturation unless you spend fucking ages buffing the shit out of it for no reason), AND THEN the time for the geneticist to actually get superpowers onto the one injector.

Yeah, the superpower one seems literally only to be useful for people messing around (and is therefore pretty annoying when a virologist releases it). Random X-ray makes it impossible to reliably hide, random TK makes it easy for people to temporarily mess with you (but not easy to do anything practical), and random hulk leads to a lot of break ins, break outs (ie, security can't brig anyone with the disease, either has to execute or let go, since there tends to be no vaccine), and random instances of "can't fire my gun, shit".

Not particularly fun except for people to bust through walls in an uncontrollable fashion. Oh, and for geneticists to rush to the good powers.

Bolded section seems a little ridiculous to me especially - of course there's no vaccine. If you look at the symptom itself it nukes resistance of whatever disease you put it in - minus 7 is extreme. The cure will always be nutriment in a DAA disease, which is the easiest thing to find around the station. If shitlers are just busting out of brig cells or what have you then forcefeed them a fucking donk pocket.

[J_Madison]

You also have to take into account the time it takes the virologist to get to DAA (a plasma-tier symptom), the time it takes for the viro to get sneezing off of DAA (usually not long, but it's there), and the time for the disease to mature inside a monkey (DAA forces the minimum speed for maturation unless you spend fucking ages buffing the shit out of it for no reason), AND THEN the time for the geneticist to actually get superpowers onto the one injector.

About 5-7 minutes at best to isolate all the power's values and 9 minutes to arrive with all/most of the powers in an SE.

The problem is also that genetics is effectively ended in 20 minutes which leaves both jobs the opportunity to run around with superpowers.

[Cheimon]

You can almost never feed someone enough nutriment to cure them at any reliable speed. A donk pocket won't cut it.

If you cure them, they get the disease back as soon as they're released.

[Jazaen]

Do note that otherwise genetics is the most random department section around, and most of the time when you get all powers the normal way science has finished research (if they got lucky with anomaly/xenos and mining). By your logic, when research tree is maxed all scientists should suddenly start validhunting the station. While rushed genetics/aide virus has the potential to empower greytiders, it is still possible to capture them using mutadone. Also, I'm not really sure if you can contract same virus twice.

EDIT: Besides that, genetics really could use a rework.

[J_Madison]

Do note that otherwise genetics is the most random department section around, and most of the time when you get all powers the normal way science has finished research (if they got lucky with anomaly/xenos and mining). By your logic, when research tree is maxed all scientists should suddenly start validhunting the station. While rushed genetics/aide virus has the potential to empower greytiders, it is still possible to capture them using mutadone. Also, I'm not really sure if you can contract same virus twice.

Given the conditions, here's the worst case scenario:
Superpowered assistants break into armoury.
Spacesuits prevent needles from hitting, and has a chance to reflect shotgun darts.
You absolutely need an oddy to fight them if they're in hardsuits.

And fighting hulks?
Try fighting a fully augmented riotshield wearing armoured hulk being able to see everything and any attempt you try against them whilst chugging Hyperzine.
It's nigh impossible, I've only seen one successful fight and that involved someone bringing the entirety of the armoury, and they barely survived with 3 bullets left

[Jazaen]

Well, if you really have hulks break into the armoury, place that when entered makes you instantly valid, you have already failed.

Try fighting a fully augmented riotshield wearing armoured hulk being able to see everything and any attempt you try against them whilst chugging Hyperzine.

You are saying that an assistant got someone to 1# Give them full powers, since aide will randomly flicker hulk on and off, 2# fully augment them, 3# Get them omnizine (that has overdose of 30, and requires either CMO sacrificing entire hypo or botany making ambrosia deus)(Actually, I'm not sure if augments wouldn't make chem healing stop working). Then this assistant breaks through security, into the armoury (if you have an assistant get all these things there probably are at least a few officers, maybe a warden and HoS out there). Remember, he is not protected by asimov and attracts the all-seeing eye . And I'm pretty sure this assistant would get BWOINKED. If he is an antag, well, sometimes this happens.

[J_Madison]

Well, if you really have hulks break into the armoury, place that when entered makes you instantly valid, you have already failed.

Try fighting a fully augmented riotshield wearing armoured hulk being able to see everything and any attempt you try against them whilst chugging Hyperzine.

You are saying that an assistant got someone to 1# Give them full powers, since aide will randomly flicker hulk on and off, 2# fully augment them, 3# Get them omnizine (that has overdose of 30, and requires either CMO sacrificing entire hypo or botany making ambrosia deus)(Actually, I'm not sure if augments wouldn't make chem healing stop working). Then this assistant breaks through security, into the armoury (if you have an assistant get all these things there probably are at least a few officers, maybe a warden and HoS out there). Remember, he is not protected by asimov and attracts the all-seeing eye . And I'm pretty sure this assistant would get BWOINKED. If he is an antag, well, sometimes this happens.

No, Aide can be used in genetics to effectively isolate and identify all superpower blocks in 3 minutes, plus another 6 minutes of isolating those blocks.

I'm not saying an assistant could do it, though I've seen it happen, but someone can eventually do it. And it becomes an absolute nightmare to stop one. Even if they're unaugmented, if they get protection of some kind it's very difficult to hit them with a syringe of mutadone.

And it makes it even worse for antags. If you isolate X-ray as a first block using DAA, you absolutely cannot die to an ambush due to X-ray vision.


Since when does hulk nullify Asimov?

[Amelius]

Keep DAS and DAA, it's useful for antag usage (DAA alone causes mass mayhem for sec), imho. Honestly, I don't see it as much of a problem that it's feasible to nail out genetics in 30~ minutes (5-20 for viro to get DAA, 20~ to get all the powers onto one SE) + RNG for manifestation. Plus, it's dependent on two departments being competent, so it's not exactly a huge issue.

What is probably a bigger issue is that there's a trillion disability cells now so doing genetics normally takes an hour+ of frustrating work with pretty shit yield for most of the other departments in that span of time, so nerfing this method means making genetics even more niche for antags than it already is.

[Jazaen]

For quite some time, if I remember correctly. Though it would be nice to get a definite admin ruling instead of an ad-hoc one.

Besides, this is still time-gated. By the time all this happens, your greytider could make good ammount of grenades in chemistry, perhaps get a gold slime if they are hell-bent on it, make a mech or simply relase singuloth as engineer. If you put enough effort into it you can become (nearly) invincible. If your hulk raids armory, well, as stated above, you have already failed in your security duties. Besides, a greytider who did all this has breaken server rules: one, two, maybe four.


EDIT: Disabilities are just there, remember about all added voice mutations.

[Actionb]

Hulks are pretty much lizards in the eyes of silicons. Beat them into near crit to dehulk them if they cause problems. After that they're a whiny meatbag again, so be careful.

Hulks aren't unstoppable. Stamina damage works on them to slow them down to a crawl. Hulks are purely melee and usually unarmored. Easy pickings if you are aware. Dissolve a mutadone pill in a bottle/beaker with a bit a of water and you have insta-dehulk one-tile grenades.

I have been playing geneticist quite a lot recently and DNA aide has always ruined my day.
Teamwork between genetics and virology rarely happens as both departments stay totally stumm until their work is done. By the time the virologist releases his virus, I am half way done with my SEs. It removes all the powers you already have and gives you unreliable, spammy, random powers. When asking for a vaccine you just get "lol food" - instead of a 0.1u pill of easily made vaccine. One time, I had to break into chemistry to make lipozine so I could keep eating to try and cure the disease...
And even if you do work together to get a god SE in 20 minutes, nobody will come to ask for it. 90% of the station will be happy with just the disease.
So yeah, a synergy is there - but it is rarely used.
(besides, suffering the wrath of the RNG gods is all geneticists have these days, so why would you want to cut your work short? You are not the #1 for reviving dead crew anymore. God bless the times when robust speed cloning geneticists were the heroes the station needed...)

Should DNA aide go? No. It causes friction (mainly between security and everyone else). It causes chaos. It can save or take lives. That's great.
Can it be abused? Yes. But then again, virology is power gaming in a can. Robust virologists can have triple regen+stimulant diseases out in 5 minutes.

[J_Madison]

Hulks are pretty much lizards in the eyes of silicons. Beat them into near crit to dehulk them if they cause problems. After that they're a whiny meatbag again, so be careful.

That's rediculous in my opinion, a change in the SE block doesn't change races. Changing the UEUI on the other hand is different.

Hulks aren't unstoppable. Stamina damage works on them to slow them down to a crawl. Hulks are purely melee and usually unarmored. Easy pickings if you are aware. Dissolve a mutadone pill in a bottle/beaker with a bit a of water and you have insta-dehulk one-tile grenades.

Easier said than done. It's impossible to take on hulks if you don't have weapons or chemicals.

Should DNA aide go? No. It causes friction (mainly between security and everyone else). It causes chaos. It can save or take lives. That's great.
Can it be abused? Yes. But then again, virology is power gaming in a can. Robust virologists can have triple regen+stimulant diseases out in 5 minutes.

The entire reasoning behind DAA removal is because it allows a job that normally takes time due to the sheer power (unempable vision, stacks with augments) to be complete in minutes and enables people to then abuse these powers to do whatever they like as they're out of a job.

And the virus itself really has no benefits.

[Alex Crimson]

You guys are derps. He doesnt release DAA, he uses it on a test subject to identify all the superpower blocks. Then a Geneticist can easily make an SE with all the superpowers.

...honestly though, a good Geneticist does not need to use DAA. Its not hard to get all the power anymore.

and yall are exaggerating the speed at which players can finish this stuff. It take more than 5 damn minutes to make 3 super-regen viruses in Viro, and it takes more than 20 to get DAA and allow a Geneticist to make an SE with all the powers.

[Anonmare]

I believe the official ruling is that Hulks are considered mutants anot Human. Which is really good for AIs who have no means of restraining or stunning a Hulk non-harmfully. Against a Hulk the AI may as well let them in for all the good they can do.

[Actionb]

Hulks are lizards in the eyes of silicons. Beat them into near crit to dehulk them if they cause problems. After that they're a whiny meatbag again, so be careful.

That's rediculous in my opinion, a change in the SE block doesn't change races. Changing the UEUI on the other hand is different.

A SE block can also turn you into a monkey. By that logic, it's not too difficult to accept that hulks are real mutants i.e. not human - or if you'd rather have the gameplay reason for this: there is no way of non-harmfully detaining a hulk (barring chemicals - but try teaching that to an officer with a laser). Some hulk shitlers will take up residency in your upload/AI core, given the chance.
But let's forget about hulks...

The entire reasoning behind DAA removal is because it allows a job that normally takes time due to the sheer power (unempable vision, stacks with augments) to be complete in minutes and enables people to then abuse these powers to do whatever they like as they're out of a job.

And the virus itself really has no benefits.

You guys are derps. He doesnt release DAA, he uses it on a test subject to identify all the superpower blocks. Then a Geneticist can easily make an SE with all the superpowers

You know, in all this time DNA aide was in the game, I have seen this happen once or twice. And it still takes quite a bit of time to get the blocks right and the powers to manifest.
The use DNA aide itself has really died out over the months. At this point, it's old news really.

[callanrockslol]

DAS and DAA viruses
These viruses really exist only to serve genetics. I hear the virologists are getting lazy now that everyone rushes DAA to master genetics in minutes.

To quote someone I know as a very robust virologist, "Everyone just powergames DAA into superpowers then fuck off to validhunt or break into places with hulk, xray, tk and cr".

Removing DAA and DAS would greatly change how MedBay is played (genetics actually requires "skill" [RNG], virology actually makes a good virus instead of DAA).

Genetics is literally entirely garbage and most rounds it goes completely undone. Unless it gets fixed DAA better stay.

[Luke Cox]

Can we at least agree that the crusher exploits have to go?

[J_Madison]

DAS and DAA viruses
These viruses really exist only to serve genetics. I hear the virologists are getting lazy now that everyone rushes DAA to master genetics in minutes.

To quote someone I know as a very robust virologist, "Everyone just powergames DAA into superpowers then fuck off to validhunt or break into places with hulk, xray, tk and cr".

Removing DAA and DAS would greatly change how MedBay is played (genetics actually requires "skill" [RNG], virology actually makes a good virus instead of DAA).

Genetics is literally entirely garbage and most rounds it goes completely undone. Unless it gets fixed DAA better stay.

You've got some unrobust geneticists if they can't do genetics without DAA and some lazy scientists if MedBay isn't upgraded.

Genetics was never meant to create/enable spaceworthy, all seeing, extended functioning, unstunnable superstrong invisible people within 10 minutes of the round.

Can we at least agree that the crusher exploits have to go?

The crusher exploit absolutely must go. Not even metal or glass sheets should be gotten for free. People are defending it to create silver and gold. Unfortunately /tg/ doesn't have that bad of powergamers, but take into consideration that if the crusher glitch doesn't go, a stack of 50 uranium with a pimped out exofab will create enough durands to validhunt and prevent any "escape alone" objective.

[Jazaen]

Again, assuming worst case scenario. I've only seen one or two such mech rounds, one of which was durning shadowling (admittedly I haven't played on sybil since summer started, since every time I play there durning holiday rush I feel empty inside, so things might have changed a bit.)

[Alex Crimson]

Can we at least agree that the crusher exploits have to go?

It needs to go and Science needs a nerf. It has suffered from some serious powercreep.

[Anonmare]

I agree, Science has gotten too strong in my opinion and - this is all just my opinion.
They have access to all the shiniest toys with relatively little effort. Hell let's take mechs for example, with a little research from R&D they can build mechs with grenade launchers, laser/heavy laser cannons and even get tasers from the start. Plus with spacewind, all they need to fuck shit up is to drill a hole in the hull and watch as the pathetic non-scientists battle spacewind in a vain attempt to get away. R&D is limited in that they need to get proper firing pins (assuming they don't have an emag and firing range pins) to make their guns work but mech weapons don't, once attached they're essentially ready to go.

To put it in a better way, let's compare how much damage a department could do to the station:-

Spoiler:

Science
A scientist in toxins can make max-cap bombs that fuck up the station beyond any hope of repair, essentially forced shuttle calls all round.
R&D can make implants and high-power guns (including x-ray guns, which combined with thermals/x-ray makes you completely unable to be ambushed), and can subvert the AI without needing to expose themselves. The only downside is that they need mining's help to make the very high power stuff and firing pins. Test-range pins can be emagged to remove the lack of firing pins downside.
Robotics can make big, stompy mechs, one of which can phase through walls and get decently powered weapons without the need to get firing pins, dependant on mining and R&d are the only downsides.
Xenobiology can get extracts to make minion armies and summon many hostile mobs which only security can reasonably be expected to deal with. Near-completely unreliant on the rest of the station.
Supply
Can order crates of guns, armour, emitters, supermatter and singularity engine parts. Can have their supply console hacked to acquire Syndicate bundles (More than 20 TCs worth) for 140 supply points, limited by their supply points and need mining's cooperation in order to get anything at a reasonable volume.
Mining can acquire gibtonite and, depending on their competence, can damage the station just as much as toxins can. A fully-plated hardsuit plus tacticool turtleneck/Security jumpsuit grants about 90% melee resistance and they can laugh off any attempt to beat them to death. Resonator and Kinetic Accelerator are robust in low-pressure environments and can acquire gear no one else can if they're lucky/willing to explore other z-levels. Completely independant from the rest of the station.
Medbay
Chemists can make explosives, healing chems, poisons and thermite, however their department is extremely public so making dangerous chemicals without being noticed is difficult.
Medbay can perform malpractice if they're sneaky, can easily acquire toxin and morphine as well as syringe guns without seeming too suspicious. Can get portable crew monitors which lets them track crewmembers at all time if they've got their sensors on max. The downside is that, like chemistry, their department is fairly public and can't really harm the station on a large scale.
Virology and Genetics are grouped fairly close to one another and, with cooperation, can produce space-worthy, rapidly-healing, speedy, invisible, unstunnable, uncontainable, all-seeing telekinetic supermen. Viro can release diseases while immunising themselves, however viruses are not that effective due to the relative ease of acquiring the cures. Genetics can load Monkey SEs/Completely crippled SEs into syringe guns and render someone incommunicable or completely incapable with a single hit. Limited only by the roll of the dice and their own patience.
Service
The Janitors tend to be able to cover up murders better due to their possession of space cleaner, cleaner grenades and trash bags (which also doubles as an effective hiding place for stolen items). Tend to be overlooked and most people agree to let them into a department when the lights blow or it get's really filthy. Can't do any appreciable damage to the station with what they have legitimate access to.
Cooks and bartenders can poison crew members more easily, though the bartender has a harder time since examining a glass will reveal all the reagents in it - including poisons. The Cook can gib people and put them permanently out of a round as that person if they don't have a clone back up. The Bartender starts with a shotgun and armour. Both have limited maintenance access and can do very little harm to the station at large.
Hydroponics can grow deathnettle, which at max potency is basically an e-sword, that requires their special gloves to safely handle. Can grow Kudzu which if properly nurtured can become like unto a blob. If they acquire the seeds, can grow gatfruit which let's them grow revolvers. Breeding and growing plants takes time and patience and hydroponics is relatively public. Arguably the only service job who could fuck up the station the most using only things they have legitimate access to.
Engineering
Engineering can release the singularity, essentially from the very start of a round. I don't think anymore needs to be said. The downside is that without a beacon, only Lord Singuloth decides where Lord Singuloth goes. Can also overcharge the power grid to make electrified doors into being near-fatal injuries.
Atmospherics can flood plasma and Nitrous Oxide directly into the distribution loop which can take a long time to clear if atmospherics goes without being upgraded. Can easily shield themselves from the downside of a fiery plasma leak with fire-proof suits and their department is fairly private and are not assigned an officer. The downside is that they tend to be watched very carefully by the AI and flooding can be stopped relatively easily.
Civilians are too varied to talk about in generality but tend to be like service in lacking any hard means of damaging the station like the other three departments can.

Out of all the departments I mentioned, Science get's the most positives with fairly few downsides. Engineering being the other one but they are just as vulnerable to the singulo as the rest of the station is and atmospherics can be shut down fairly easily. In my opinion, it's come about due to the standard response to most suggestions of new content is to "gate it behind science" which with the new crushers makes it trivial to get. It's better now that you can't get diamonds and such from it science can still shut themselves away and emerge with the biggest and shiniest toys with little hard counter beyond deleting all their research.

TL;DR Science has gotten too powerful for too little effort and need to be reigned back a bit.

[Jazaen]

Are you sure genetics can use SEs in syringe guns?

[whodaloo]

you can't fit DNA injectors in syringe guns and afaik haven't been able to for literal years

[Anonmare]

Really? I must have been mistaken then, I thought I saw it happen yesterday but I guess that was a ling then.

[Bombadil]

I don't have much of a history with /tg/ and I'm sure as hell foreign.

Upgraded crusher
Many people love this as it creates infinite resources for infinite fun.

The biggest problem I saw with the crusher was how everyone rushed to upgrade the crusher then spent 10 minutes with an autolathe spamming Z to drop bullets (and recycle the bullet box for a 100% refund). Then some assclown decided it was fun to rush HONK mechs and Phazons at roundstart. I see tgstation's crusher been greatly nerfed with the removal of diamonds and inability to make uranium, but the upgraded crusher is a little too much, especially when cargo can infinitely use the crusher for infinite plasma and get infinite cargo points or science can give every assistant a free Metal-glass mech (APLU, oddy).

I fear the day science makes a rush to upgrade the crusher, then effectively spends the rest of the round abusing the free resources. And mining doesn't benefit because miners are practically forced to mine diamond and uranium exclusively.

You can't make plasma you can only make silver and gold. You could never make plasma with it

[Cheimon]

In my opinion, it's come about due to the standard response to most suggestions of new content is to "gate it behind science" which with the new crushers makes it trivial to get

Furthermore, attempts to change this have met with real condemnation. Firing pins, for example, took guns from lockboxes (a weaker gate to scientists) and put their use behind the armoury pins box (a stronger gate to scientists) and cargo.

But this has been roundly condemned, it seems, as something that shouldn't have been done. Which I disagree with, but that's for that thread.

[Luke Cox]

Just removing infinite crusher exploits alone would be a huge step towards balancing science. In theory, the main balancing factor in science is material cost. You can make a lot of shiny toys, but they're very expensive. Robotics doesn't pump out mechs when it does it the "right" way by relying on mining.

[Marflow]

DAA could be adjusted a bit with slight changes. One way would be to have period between mutations where there wouldn't be any mutation going on. Another way would be to simply remove hulk from the cycle.
There is a huge balancer in DAA already in place though; It's random. Sure, it's decent enough to break into some places but the only one who really needs to be afraid of it is AI since sec can just arrest when Hulk is not on.
Yes, a competent virologist is a scary thing and a powerful force for either good or evil, but so is a competent scientist, a competent engineer, lucky geneticist or a clown with nothing to lose.