Stun overhaul/nerf

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:01 pm #113685

This is going to be controversial, hated and very confusing for others.

This is a massive stun overhaul, which "should" absolutely kill the meta-mechanic of Stun > 99 damage.
It will be impossible to stun and cuff someone that is actively resisting with any ranged or stunprod based stun, alone.
This does not mean you can't be cuffed this way. A security officer can spam a taser whilst another cuffs you.
The only melee stun capable of stunning for long enough to cuff will be the stunbaton and the police baton.

CNS Rebooters must allow the user to get up faster, otherwise they're useless unless used against melee stuns.

I suggest greater use of disablers to disable targets, and for targets unaffected by disablers or unable to be disabled quick enough; Lethal force.
I do not imply the use of RP to get people to lay down or comply to a search, but disablers, lethal force, chemical based stuns and spell based stuns will be more likely to be used after this

The following are genuine reproduced scenarios that have occured before and after the update.

Spoiler:

var/stunforce changes:

Stunbaton
7 -> 4

Stunprod
5 -> 2

Stunshot (taser shotgun shell)
stun 5 -> 2
weaken 5 ->2

Stun (taser bolt)
stun 5 -> 2
weaken 5 -> 2

bolttoxin (mini and large energy crossbows)
Weakn 5 -> weaken 3

Projectile special (frag 12g rounds)
Weaken 5 -> weaken 2

Wet floor
4, 2 -> 2,1

Space lube
0, 7 -> 0, 4

Soap (normal)
Weaken 1
Stun 2

Soap (syndicate)
weaken = 3
stun = 4

If you'd like a comparable github or the code for these changes, PM me or post here asking for it.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:03 pm #113687

This should come with a rule authorising lethal force on people who resist arrest.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:06 pm #113689

Massive inconvenice for everyone and just prolongs fights with annoying yakkity saxing around while you try to load respectable damage into someone.

Maybe this works well for your "hardcore" 20 person station, but it just sounds like a pain in the ass for any population where you have to deal with a lot of people and depend on keeping them all down.

Considering the current state of Security lethals (Even with changes potentially made by the thread Kor posted), you can't reduce stuns so dramatically and call it anything but the largest QoL reduction possible for Security.

Furthermore, nerfing these stuns but not some other extremely powerful ones we currently have (Cult paper, neurotoxin, magic missile, etc.) will just lead to extremely annoying gameplay for more or less all parties involved.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:07 pm #113690

How the flying fuck is security supposed to operate (or any situation where you need to non lethally detain someone) when you need 2 people just to cuff someone?

Also there is a reason why shit like the revolver is so popular - you can 2 hit crit anyone but the cap or hos (who get 3 hit crit anyway) before they so much as have to realise you have a gun. It also isn't range limited like stuns.

This not an FPS, stuns are a necessary mechanic for this shitty 2d sprite game to function.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:08 pm #113691

also it will need a huge lethality buff

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:11 pm #113692

oranges wrote:This should come with a rule authorising lethal force on people who resist arrest.

Most definitely, I wouldn't suggest buffing weapons as they are currently though. I can accept buffing laser guns to 25 damage, but even then it's a little high.

If this change is tested/put in, I highly suggest admins lay off shitcurity based punishments as it will be significantly harder to use ranged stuns and cuff someone.

Scones wrote:Massive inconvenice for everyone and just prolongs fights with annoying yakkity saxing around while you try to load respectable damage into someone.

Maybe this works well for your "hardcore" 20 person station, but it just sounds like a pain in the ass for any population where you have to deal with a lot of people and depend on keeping them all down.

Considering the current state of Security lethals (Even with changes potentially made by the thread Kor posted), you can't reduce stuns so dramatically and call it anything but the largest QoL reduction possible for Security.

Furthermore, nerfing these stuns but not some other extremely powerful ones we currently have (Cult paper, neurotoxin, magic missile, etc.) will just lead to extremely annoying gameplay for more or less all parties involved.

I'm kind of insulted by the first statement. I didn't nerf flashbangs so AOE stuns to subdue massive audiences is still possible.

As for Cult paper, it is a cultist weapon and is under special conditions. Neurotoxin is an alien only stun. Magic missile is a wizard spell. None of those are able to be gotten by regular crewmen.

lumipharon wrote:How the flying fuck is security supposed to operate (or any situation where you need to non lethally detain someone) when you need 2 people just to cuff someone?

Also there is a reason why shit like the revolver is so popular - you can 2 hit crit anyone but the cap or hos (who get 3 hit crit anyway) before they so much as have to realise you have a gun. It also isn't range limited like stuns.

This not an FPS, stuns are a necessary mechanic for this shitty 2d sprite game to function.

I suggest you read it again, it is still possible to cuff solo. Greater use of Disabler beams and stunprod stuns are suggested.
Stuns are a very powerful mechanic. Stuns at current duration shut down any fight. You can take 99.999 damage but landing one stun will always reward you the victor.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:14 pm #113696

"Neurotoxin is an alien only stun"

Keep telling yourself that. It takes ten seconds in the Bar with a bottle of morphine.

What do you suggest Security do if not issued a reliable lethal weapon? This might be a good idea, but not a good idea for /tg/ considering the culture and history surrounding security and lethal force.

It's also unfair to say "You can still cuff somebody". Yes, you CAN, but the window is very small. You can cuff somebody with a telebaton if you're fast these days, but that doesn't mean it's good, easy or reliable.

ChangelingRain · Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:16 pm

Neurotoxin, the alien projectile, is alien only. Neurotoxin, the chemical, is not.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:18 pm #113700

Scones wrote:"Neurotoxin is an alien only stun"

Keep telling yourself that. It takes ten seconds in the Bar with a bottle of morphine.

What do you suggest Security do if not issued a reliable lethal weapon? This might be a good idea, but not a good idea for /tg/ considering the culture and history surrounding security and lethal force.

It's also unfair to say "You can still cuff somebody". Yes, you CAN, but the window is very small. You can cuff somebody with a telebaton if you're fast these days, but that doesn't mean it's good, easy or reliable.

Oh, I thought you were referring to Neurotoxin spit.

That is a chemical stun. Chemical stuns are a different story and should be nerfed on a chemical basis.
That's a different issue all together.

A telescopic baton shouldn't be enough to stun and cuff someone. That's enough to create a 45-60 second disable (cuff) if done correctly which effectively puts the life of the cuffed in the hands of everyone around them.

If you are cuffed by someone, your life effectively is in their hands.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:21 pm #113703

Where is the reasoning?

It seems you're advocating a change to gameplay mechanics, but you've not justified why this overhaul needs to take place.

Also, these suggestions seem to be the opposite of DANGERSTATION. This makes me sad.

TheNightingale · Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:23 pm

If a telebaton shouldn't be able to stun and cuff someone, how do heads of staff deal with insubordinate subordinates and malcontent break-in fanatics?

I like the idea, but it needs a few changes to work - including stunpaper/MM/chemicals, as already pointed out.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:24 pm #113706

invisty wrote:Where is the reasoning?

It seems you're advocating a change to gameplay mechanics, but you've not justified why this overhaul needs to take place.

Check the spoiler for genuine scenarios where a lowly assistant could easily dispatch a HOS with a single stun.

By changing this gameplay mechanic, stuns are less lethal, gun fights are more exciting and balanced and playing security is less stressful knowing you can't instantly be cuffed with a stunprod.

TheNightingale wrote:If a telebaton shouldn't be able to stun and cuff someone, how do heads of staff deal with insubordinate subordinates and malcontent break-in fanatics?

I like the idea, but it needs a few changes to work - including stunpaper/MM/chemicals, as already pointed out.

This can be handled on a case by case basis and if necessary buffed, but technically (rp wise, and overall success rates) security is meant to secure the staff member for demotion or removal.

This doesn't mean you can't telebaton chainstun them out of Engineering.

Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:28 pm

The problem in the scenario is the stunprod itself. Removing them was rejected 6 months ago and would probably be rejected now.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:29 pm #113709

MisterPerson wrote:The problem in the scenario is the stunprod itself. Removing them was rejected 6 months ago and would probably be rejected now.

They shouldn't be removed. They're very effective personal defense weapons (stun and run) but they shouldn't ever have cuffing capability.

onleavedontatme · Thu Aug 20, 2015 11:34 pm

Stuns let one person beat multiple people, which I think is important. It shouldn't always be about who brought the most guys to the fight.

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:28 am

>We want the game to be less hug-box!

>Let's make stuns so unviable that people can't die from 99% of the fights that they would have died in previously, because dying to stuns sucks!

>This game is so hug-box. We should have more death! Less hug-box!

>Let's make stuns not work so we die less!

MAKE UP YOUR MIND REEEEEEEE

Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:29 am

MisterPerson wrote:The problem in the scenario is the stunprod itself. Removing them was rejected 6 months ago and would probably be rejected now.

no the problem is that OP doesn't like dying in a game where you're going to die a lot

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:50 am #113738

By the way, something of important note: ANY sort of stun nerf severely nerfs antagonists. Antagonists tend to be more poorly equipped than sec, and have few if any friends as opposed to a sec crew with solidarity and AI aid. However their sole and primary advantage is the element of surprise.

However, the value of this is exponentially lessened with weaker stuns, and almost entirely removed by removing any sort of direct stun, which means antags are fighting ridiculous odds without the equipment or ability to fight it, let alone dispose of targets stealthily.

0/10, it's OK as is, don't change something that's tried and true for something that will fuck everything up and make the game less lethal and... worse.

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:30 am #113754

I just find it hilarious how people seem to think stun = win in every situation.

If you are fighting someone 1v1, and you have a stun weapon and they don't, then yes you will be able to ggnore them if you stunthem (assuming they aren't a ling/have adrenal implant).
But for every other fight, it is far from clear cut.

1v3 for example, I would choose a revolver every time over a taser.
Revolver double tap = crit and unable to get back into the fight.
Stun = they're down for 5 seconds then get back up while I'm still busy trying to deal with the other two people, who I was either unable to stun, or if I even was able to stun all 3, I can't keep them all stunned long enough to restrain them.

Shit is not clear cut yo - stuns are only objectively better, in situations where there is nothing stopping you from safely restraining them after the stun.

Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:03 am

lumipharon wrote:I just find it hilarious how people seem to think stun = win in every situation.

If you are fighting someone 1v1, and you have a stun weapon and they don't, then yes you will be able to ggnore them if you stunthem (assuming they aren't a ling/have adrenal implant).
But for every other fight, it is far from clear cut.

1v3 for example, I would choose a revolver every time over a taser.
Revolver double tap = crit and unable to get back into the fight.
Stun = they're down for 5 seconds then get back up while I'm still busy trying to deal with the other two people, who I was either unable to stun, or if I even was able to stun all 3, I can't keep them all stunned long enough to restrain them.

Shit is not clear cut yo - stuns are only objectively better, in situations where there is nothing stopping you from safely restraining them after the stun.

to be fair, i've won 1v3 situations with stuns as an assistant vs security because stunbaton can stunlock and do damage at the same time
but on pretty much every other account you're totally right

either way don't nerf stuns that would be retarded and goes backwards on our "anti-hug-box" campaign or whatever it is we're doing

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:18 am #113791

Can people just stop getting mad at dieing

Alex Crimson · Fri Aug 21, 2015 9:57 am

I love the idea of making stuns less overpowered, but this will not solve anything. People will just stunlock you whilst they laser/beat you to death. Its mostly ranged insta-stuns that are the problem.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:39 am #113829

PKPenguin321 wrote:>We want the game to be less hug-box!

>Let's make stuns so unviable that people can't die from 99% of the fights that they would have died in previously, because dying to stuns sucks!

>This game is so hug-box. We should have more death! Less hug-box!

>Let's make stuns not work so we die less!

MAKE UP YOUR MIND REEEEEEEE

When did I say I didn't like dying?
Don't use an ad hom to devalue my statement or opinions please.
Those scenarios are more about having a fair fight than anything.

The tweaking of the stun is more about changing how combat works and making it more balanced. This also applies to antags whose revolver massacre can be stopped by one taser.

Amelius wrote:By the way, something of important note: ANY sort of stun nerf severely nerfs antagonists. Antagonists tend to be more poorly equipped than sec, and have few if any friends as opposed to a sec crew with solidarity and AI aid. However their sole and primary advantage is the element of surprise.

However, the value of this is exponentially lessened with weaker stuns, and almost entirely removed by removing any sort of direct stun, which means antags are fighting ridiculous odds without the equipment or ability to fight it, let alone dispose of targets stealthily.

0/10, it's OK as is, don't change something that's tried and true for something that will fuck everything up and make the game less lethal and... worse.

Antags still have the advantage; nobody expects syndicate soap whose duration has not been changed, none of the chemical values for the traitor toxins has changed. This change would also complement traitors whose revolver can be stopped by a single stun.

You can't doubletap a sec officer, but if you're in a maint shaft one stun from a taser shouldn't beat two shots from the revolver.

Put it in this perspective and being a traitor is easier. It's easier to escape from stuns and it's easier to survive an firefight knowing that the stun isn't going to beat your revolver.

lumipharon wrote:I just find it hilarious how people seem to think stun = win in every situation.

If you are fighting someone 1v1, and you have a stun weapon and they don't, then yes you will be able to ggnore them if you stunthem (assuming they aren't a ling/have adrenal implant).
But for every other fight, it is far from clear cut.

1v3 for example, I would choose a revolver every time over a taser.
Revolver double tap = crit and unable to get back into the fight.
Stun = they're down for 5 seconds then get back up while I'm still busy trying to deal with the other two people, who I was either unable to stun, or if I even was able to stun all 3, I can't keep them all stunned long enough to restrain them.

Shit is not clear cut yo - stuns are only objectively better, in situations where there is nothing stopping you from safely restraining them after the stun.

Unless you can deal 100 Damage, stuns always wins in a straight up fight.

Your scenario is far different. 3v1 is overwhelming odds. It's a different story all together when dealing with these masses. One person being able to stun and cuff two people is overpowered already. It shouldn't be possible to stun and cuff two people alone with 2-3 taser bolts.

Aside from this, if three people are after you and you somehow get the stun on all three you can at this point not only take their weapons, but also do what you like during those stun times.

The limits to a 3v1 is cuffing 2 before one gets up, which at this point it becomes a 1v1 between the two people as the other two that're cuffed are completely disabled and cannot help the fight offensively.

One person with an energy gun shouldn't be able to stun and kill or stun and cuff three well equally armed people under normal circumstances. Nada, shouldn't work that way.

Alex Crimson wrote:I love the idea of making stuns less overpowered, but this will not solve anything. People will just stunlock you whilst they laser/beat you to death. Its mostly ranged insta-stuns that are the problem.

I never intended to nerf stunlock (difficult). Hell if someone stunned and shot you with 3 disablers, that would be an even more powerful stunlock.

Even under these stun nerfs, if someone had an egun and wanted you dead, they could.
This fix doesn't immediately fuck up antags or security from arresting you.

An antag can still walk into MedBay, stun you and kill you.
A security officer can still stun you, baton or pepper spray you then cuff you.
The Assistant can still stunprod toolbox you if he absolutely wanted to, by alternating between stun and bash.

But now, you have a chance of fighting back.

Post by **oranges** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:45 am #113831

If I had it my way a single laser or bullet hit would drop you into crit

but you're all babies

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 11:55 am #113836

oranges wrote:If I had it my way a single laser or bullet hit would drop you into crit

but you're all babies

Yeah well I'm not implementing a shock system.

That'd be stupid, who wants a system where you get shot, which induces shock and without morphine, bandages and assurances (lots and lots of hugs) you'll get a heart attack and suffocate to death, unless you're a head of staff, MedBay staff or security staff.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:26 pm #113840

For the love of god stop gimping Security.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:45 pm #113846

Tornadium wrote:For the love of god stop gimping Security.

How is this gimping security?

To be honest, this makes security a less stressful job knowing that your armour can prevent your death rather than delay it.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 12:59 pm #113848

J_Madison wrote:
Tornadium wrote:For the love of god stop gimping Security.
How is this gimping security?

To be honest, this makes security a less stressful job knowing that your armour can prevent your death rather than delay it.

Yeah because my armor is totally going to stop me getting insta crit by a traitor with a revolver.

It's totally going to stop me getting e-bowed to death. It's totally gonna help me fight on an equal footing with gangsters using Uzis.

It's totally going to help me control a crowd.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 1:21 pm #113854

Tornadium wrote:
J_Madison wrote:
Tornadium wrote:For the love of god stop gimping Security.
How is this gimping security?

To be honest, this makes security a less stressful job knowing that your armour can prevent your death rather than delay it.
Yeah because my armor is totally going to stop me getting insta crit by a traitor with a revolver.

It's totally going to stop me getting e-bowed to death. It's totally gonna help me fight on an equal footing with gangsters using Uzis.

It's totally going to help me control a crowd.

Ebow and revolver - expensive ass traitor items. You pay for the premium to shred through that armour.

Ebow stun is changed so you're not on your ass 24/7.

Besides the revolver exchanges TC and stun for raw firepower. Next time ask your warden for bulletproofs.

Gang Uzis are expensive. The above statement goes, wear correct armour.

This change will reduce the amount of time you're stuck on your ass helpless after a stun.

Oh yeah, use flashbangs and tear gas if your HOS/Warden is available instead of something as weak as a stungun.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:01 pm #113884

This is byond shit.

> You shouldn't be able to fight 3v1 against equally armed people.

Well, so you're literally saying that 'antagonists should never be able to go loud', which typically involves fighting several people who are armed as well as you, or will at least swarm you with solidarity that is ONLY viable currently because of stuns. Or that 'we should kill the skill cap of this game so that no matter how good you are, you can't take on more than one person', as opposed to our current model where you can take on 3 heavily-armed people alone with a baton if you're good enough.

Just please no, we're trying to make the game more lethal, not creating ridiculously asymmetrical combat, vastly in favour of crew and creating a trillion other issues along the way while simultaneously making every round shitty pseudo-extended dreck, simply because the tried and true stun combat 'sucks'. This feedback thread literally feels like a 'I'm shit at the game in it's current rendition, let's add kiddie gloves so I can robust people'!

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 3:53 pm #113892

Amelius wrote:This is byond shit.

> You shouldn't be able to fight 3v1 against equally armed people.

Well, so you're literally saying that 'antagonists should never be able to go loud', which typically involves fighting several people who are armed as well as you, or will at least swarm you with solidarity that is ONLY viable currently because of stuns. Or that 'we should kill the skill cap of this game so that no matter how good you are, you can't take on more than one person', as opposed to our current model where you can take on 3 heavily-armed people alone with a baton if you're good enough.

Just please no, we're trying to make the game more lethal, not creating ridiculously asymmetrical combat, vastly in favour of crew and creating a trillion other issues along the way while simultaneously making every round shitty pseudo-extended dreck, simply because the tried and true stun combat 'sucks'. This feedback thread literally feels like a 'I'm shit at the game in it's current rendition, let's add kiddie gloves so I can robust people'!

Antags going loud usually kill their targets. This is talking about stuns and how easily they can end a fight and how unfair they are because a stun trumps any form of damage that doesn't crit someone.

An antag with a revolver should be able to fight 3v1. But against equally or slightly less equipped opponents a 3v1 would normally be laughably one sided.

This stun change actually makes going loud much easier because an antag going loud with a revolver and laser gun is far more difficult to stop.

This raises the skill cap to to be honest. You're no longer capable of "lol stun kill" or "lol stun cuff" someone. Takedowns and killing actually requires skill/coordination.

Xhagi · Post by **Xhagi** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:38 pm #113903

Completely unneeded nerf, gimps sec hard, stops leading to hilarious moments of lubing an entire deathsquid.

Stuns are just the part of the game, a needed part. Without them being affective, it'll be a huge negative impact on the game if you ask me. It'll make the game more lethal alright - I'll just harmbaton everyone if I'm sec because there's a chance they'll get away because stuns are not reliable.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 4:47 pm #113907

J_Madison wrote:This stun change actually makes going loud much easier because an antag going loud with a revolver and laser gun is far more difficult to stop.

It doesn't make going loud easier. Laser guns can kill <one> person before running out of charge and are only found in the armory, whereas stuns allow you to kill people without exhausting many resources. Revolvers use more than half of your TC, and the only sources of additional ammo involve stealing into cargo or being a scientist and making another lathe, and each set of ammo comes at immense metal cost. Making a revolver required to murderbone is one way to make the game one-dimensional shit, quickly.

Meanwhile, the moment you run out of revolver ammo (quickly) or you finish killing one person with your sole laser gun when you have 2 others coming at you, makes it impossible. You're literally mandating that you loot the armory or buy a revolver and steal ammunition to do anything functional as a traitor. And other antagonists will be fucked too, but in the other direction - mob-based antagonists (cult, gang, and less so, rev (since it'd be really tough to down a sec officer)) will become unstoppable monsters due to a lack of sec stopping power and ability to keep them down for decent periods. Lings will become unstoppable, since adrenaline shrugs off all holodamage which is basically the only form of attack left.

J_Madison wrote:This raises the skill cap to to be honest. You're no longer capable of "lol stun kill" or "lol stun cuff" someone. Takedowns and killing actually requires skill/coordination.

No it doesn't. It becomes a simple numbers game - if you have more people, you can tank more holodamage and deal more holodamage, which is all that matters with disablers, due to the large ammo capacity, the spammability (meaning it's impossible to dodge an entire charge) and the slowing effect meaning after you've taken 2 hits you're through (the proposed stun lengths and taser ammo being 5 will make it unviable to consider a taser as an actual weapon, forcing exclusive disabler usage for ranged non-lethal combat).

So in reality, you drastically lower the skill cap, making almost every fight 'who brought more dudes?'.

This 'proposed change' is greatly underthought and fucking dumb that it's even being considered seriously, by myself or others.

Incomptinence · Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:17 pm

Stun nerfs and other combat nerfs have already made revs monstrously strong. Who knew having no special gear of their own would be such an enormous benefit in nerfland on the orange continent of foam.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:22 pm #113915

This idea isn't at all that bad but the nerfs are too great. you SHOULD be able to cuff someone who has been tasered/batonned.

Stunbaton
7 -> 5

Stunprod
5 -> 4

Stunshot (taser shotgun shell)
stun 5 -> 4
weaken 5 ->4

Stun (taser bolt)
stun 5 ->4
weaken 5 -> 4

bolttoxin (mini and large energy crossbows)
Weakn 5 -> weaken 5

No nerf needed, specialist traitor weapon and really not overused

Projectile special (frag 12g rounds)
Weaken 5 -> weaken 4

Wet floor
4, 2 -> 2,1

Space lube
0, 7 -> 0, 5

Soap (normal)
Weaken 1
Stun 2

Soap (syndicate)
weaken = 3
stun = 4

Personally I would completely scrap tasers and stun the disablers to hold roughly 50% more shots. Also buff laser guns to 25 damage and increase shots to ~14.

MAKE LETHALS MORE ATTRACTIVE WHEN NERFING STUNS!

With these numbers you can still stun plus cuff someone, but you have to be fast with it, which makes it a bit more interesting in my opinion.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:28 pm #113916

I'm starting to question how any of you even handled playing on this server even less than a year ago without flipping your table at muh stuns, which have been in play even longer before that.

Then I got to looking out of curiosity, and not to throw the topic off course but J_Madison you have a total of 5 server connections here. The last one being in May.

If you're arguing this for a downstream server, get your own coders to tweak things for your needs.

QuartzCrystal · Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:37 pm

Saegrimr wrote:I'm starting to question how any of you even handled playing on this server even less than a year ago without flipping your table at muh stuns, which have been in play even longer before that.

Then I got to looking out of curiosity, and not to throw the topic off course but J_Madison you have a total of 5 server connections here. The last one being in May.

If you're arguing this for a downstream server, get your own coders to tweak things for your needs.

Oh wow.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:44 pm #113918

Saegrimr wrote:I'm starting to question how any of you even handled playing on this server even less than a year ago without flipping your table at muh stuns, which have been in play even longer before that.

Then I got to looking out of curiosity, and not to throw the topic off course but J_Madison you have a total of 5 server connections here. The last one being in May.

If you're arguing this for a downstream server, get your own coders to tweak things for your needs.

Aren't you the guy always screaming ad hominum?

If an idea is good or not has jack shit to do with how often someone connected to this server.

Now back on topic please.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:48 pm #113919

Aliannera wrote:Completely unneeded nerf, gimps sec hard, stops leading to hilarious moments of lubing an entire deathsquid.

Stuns are just the part of the game, a needed part. Without them being affective, it'll be a huge negative impact on the game if you ask me. It'll make the game more lethal alright - I'll just harmbaton everyone if I'm sec because there's a chance they'll get away because stuns are not reliable.

This is untrue, IIRC SWAT boots are unaffected by space lube.

Stunning with a stun baton is reliable. I've said this ten times; a stun with a stun baton is more than long enough to cuff.

Amelius wrote:
J_Madison wrote:This stun change actually makes going loud much easier because an antag going loud with a revolver and laser gun is far more difficult to stop.
It doesn't make going loud easier. Laser guns can kill <one> person before running out of charge and are only found in the armory, whereas stuns allow you to kill people without exhausting many resources. Revolvers use more than half of your TC, and the only sources of additional ammo involve stealing into cargo or being a scientist and making another lathe, and each set of ammo comes at immense metal cost. Making a revolver required to murderbone is one way to make the game one-dimensional shit, quickly.

Meanwhile, the moment you run out of revolver ammo (quickly) or you finish killing one person with your sole laser gun when you have 2 others coming at you, makes it impossible. You're literally mandating that you loot the armory or buy a revolver and steal ammunition to do anything functional as a traitor. And other antagonists will be fucked too, but in the other direction - mob-based antagonists (cult, gang, and less so, rev (since it'd be really tough to down a sec officer)) will become unstoppable monsters due to a lack of sec stopping power and ability to keep them down for decent periods. Lings will become unstoppable, since adrenaline shrugs off all holodamage which is basically the only form of attack left.

J_Madison wrote:This raises the skill cap to to be honest. You're no longer capable of "lol stun kill" or "lol stun cuff" someone. Takedowns and killing actually requires skill/coordination.
No it doesn't. It becomes a simple numbers game - if you have more people, you can tank more holodamage and deal more holodamage, which is all that matters with disablers, due to the large ammo capacity, the spammability (meaning it's impossible to dodge an entire charge) and the slowing effect meaning after you've taken 2 hits you're through (the proposed stun lengths and taser ammo being 5 will make it unviable to consider a taser as an actual weapon, forcing exclusive disabler usage for ranged non-lethal combat).

So in reality, you drastically lower the skill cap, making almost every fight 'who brought more dudes?'.

This 'proposed change' is greatly underthought and fucking dumb that it's even being considered seriously, by myself or others.

Are you suggesting you support plain one dimensional "Stun, cuff, space" to kill someone? That's super low skill, extremely shitty and one of the things that enables greytiding, validhunting and paranoid security players.

I'm suggesting people get creative with murders. No, a stun cuff and a space is not creative.

Are you implying that you should be able to murderbone with anything?
I've only seen about three or four a true murderbone occuring with anything but guns, mass subverted silicons and actual weapons.
Fact of the matter is, if you're looking to murderbone, you are looking at weapons. Weapons like an Esword, Ebows, pistols and revolvers from the uplink. There is no denying this.

I have yet to see a Changeling put a fair fight. That's the entire point of fighting against Changeling - it's an unfair fight. You should be looking to use lethal force against Changelings. Subduing a Changeling alive is extremely difficult due to the amount of weapons they're able to dispatch even when cuffed (blind, hallucigen, cryogenic sting, transform sting, monkey*2, armblade).
Mob based enemies are easily stopped by a Flashbang and pepperspray. Stopping a group of 3 gang members or cultists with one taser should not be possible and is unfair.

Arresting a group of people alone shouldn't be easy in the first place.

Fighting cultists, revolutionaries and gangbangers shouldn't be a matter of "who stunned first", that's fucking stupid. It's a team/mob based mode so you should be fighting on team or mob based terms instead of alone.

Like I've said, this is an extremely foreign concept to people and I know everyone on first glance without trying it out will dismiss it without posting proof or understanding the concept in the first place.

Frankly, if you're not willing to put consideration to understanding how this would change the game and instead going to attack the proposed changes with strawmen and ad homs, I'm not interested.

Oldman Robustin · Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:52 pm

There seems to be a huge correlation between people who barely play this game and completely awful suggestions.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 5:54 pm #113921

I think the connection thing is relevant because he's the host(?)/some administrative element for a downstream server that HAS made this change

Also Oldman is right - The more you play this game, the more accurate data you are collecting, and the more you can respectably speak on matters of balance.

And no, swat boots are still very much affected by lube

Nothing stops lube

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:03 pm #113922

Incomptinence wrote:Stun nerfs and other combat nerfs have already made revs monstrously strong. Who knew having no special gear of their own would be such an enormous benefit in nerfland on the orange continent of foam.

I'm trying to figure out why people think they deserve to survive against a weapon without special gear.

If they get their face smashed in by revs when they knew there were revs, I'm going to ask "Why didn't you have Riot armour and crowd control?".

CPTANT wrote:This idea isn't at all that bad but the nerfs are too great. you SHOULD be able to cuff someone who has been tasered/batonned.
Code: Select all
Stunbaton
7 -> 5

Stunprod
5 -> 4

Stunshot (taser shotgun shell)
stun 5 -> 4
weaken 5 ->4

Stun (taser bolt) 
stun 5 ->4
weaken 5 -> 4

bolttoxin (mini and large energy crossbows)
Weakn 5 -> weaken 5

No nerf needed, specialist traitor weapon and really not overused

Projectile special (frag 12g rounds)
Weaken 5 -> weaken 4

Wet floor
4, 2 -> 2,1

Space lube
0, 7 -> 0, 5

Soap (normal)
Weaken 1
Stun 2

Soap (syndicate)
weaken = 3
stun = 4
Personally I would completely scrap tasers and stun the disablers to hold roughly 50% more shots. Also buff laser guns to 25 damage and increase shots to ~14.

MAKE LETHALS MORE ATTRACTIVE WHEN NERFING STUNS!

With these numbers you can still stun plus cuff someone, but you have to be fast with it, which makes it a bit more interesting in my opinion.

I'll definitely support these numbers with an exception to stunprods. I cannot stand the concept of stunprods being used to stun someone and cuff them.

I will however, support ranged stun cuffing provided the timeframe is tight.

Saegrimr wrote:I'm starting to question how any of you even handled playing on this server even less than a year ago without flipping your table at muh stuns, which have been in play even longer before that.

Then I got to looking out of curiosity, and not to throw the topic off course but J_Madison you have a total of 5 server connections here. The last one being in May.

If you're arguing this for a downstream server, get your own coders to tweak things for your needs.

The idea has no correlation with how long I've been playing. I'm offering my opinion on it. If you're going to dismiss all that I've said simply based on how long or how often I play on sybil/basil, I'll be appalled.

That being said, I may not come from Sybil or Basil but I come from a tgstation-code server. I'm not a newbie to the game and I'm certainly not unrobust.

Oldman Robustin wrote:There seems to be a huge correlation between people who barely play this game and completely awful suggestions.

I've heard a bit about you, apparently you're the most robust, I suppose this nerf will affect you too.
I've been playing long enough to know how cancerous long stuns are. Stunning a HOS, Warden and detective before proceeding to cuff two then kill the other is one of the dumbest things possible.

Scones wrote:I think the connection thing is relevant because he's the host(?)/some administrative element for a downstream server that HAS made this change

Also Oldman is right - The more you play this game, the more accurate data you are collecting, and the more you can respectably speak on matters of balance.

And no, swat boots are still very much affected by lube

Nothing stops lube

First point is correct, thank you Scones. I am the big boss for another server whom has already made these changes. The changes I've posted on the OP is actually a beefed up version of our changes since I believed our changes would be a little extreme for Sybil and Basil players.

These changes do work. Takes a little for people to get used to, but they work.

SWAT boots affected by lube. God I hate lube. There is no relief to lube than nodrop implants and Hulk. Even those won't stop me from slipping.

Scones · Post by **Scones** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:04 pm #113923

The game is really different at higher populations

Also don't fellate oldman it enables him darnit

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:08 pm #113924

Scones wrote:The game is really different at higher populations

Also don't fellate oldman it enables him darnit

I understand that a 6 man security team will have extreme difficulties holding against 10 assistants and more than 20 non-implanted staff, but greytiding/resisting arrest/preventing a seige of that kind is not only a code red situation, but one prime for the use of flashbangs, tear gas and lethal force.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:22 pm #113926

Okay, I challenge you to go play a single round as security without using a taser or a baton.

Then come back to me and tell me how that went.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:24 pm #113928

I hate to use the "rarely plays" meme in an actual debate but seriously, what the fuck is your agenda here? You play on a server that already has these changes, the people who play here do not want this as it will not work for our playstyle and no one other than you thinks that it is an entirely good idea in the way you have put it forward. Why do you care? Will you start playing here if these changes somehow are made?

Also
>going code red every time someone greytides

Are you being completely serious?

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:35 pm #113931

Wyzack wrote:I hate to use the "rarely plays" meme in an actual debate but seriously, what the fuck is your agenda here? You play on a server that already has these changes, the people who play here do not want this as it will not work for our playstyle and no one other than you thinks that it is an entirely good idea in the way you have put it forward. Why do you care? Will you start playing here if these changes somehow are made?

Also
>going code red every time someone greytides

Are you being completely serious?

Code red situation.
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law
Use of Deadly Force
Note: The Alert Status is not required to be elevated to Code Red as in most of these scenarios the Chain of Command will be too damaged or otherwise occupied to raise the Alert Level.

My agenda here is to make a suggestion based upon posts being made about the stresses of playing security and the complaints made about stuns. I knew I was taking a risk when I was posting this.
I'm offering a second opinion. I'm giving my opinions based upon different experiences.

Tornadium wrote:Okay, I challenge you to go play a single round as security without using a taser or a baton.

Then come back to me and tell me how that went.

Wanna know how I play HOS and arrest someone?
Stun, 3 disabler beams, cuff.
That's how you arrest someone at range with this change.

Of course, you can do stun, baton stun, cuff.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:50 pm #113938

J_Madison wrote:
Wyzack wrote:I hate to use the "rarely plays" meme in an actual debate but seriously, what the fuck is your agenda here? You play on a server that already has these changes, the people who play here do not want this as it will not work for our playstyle and no one other than you thinks that it is an entirely good idea in the way you have put it forward. Why do you care? Will you start playing here if these changes somehow are made?

Also
>going code red every time someone greytides

Are you being completely serious?
Code red situation.
https://tgstation13.org/wiki/Space_Law
Use of Deadly Force
Note: The Alert Status is not required to be elevated to Code Red as in most of these scenarios the Chain of Command will be too damaged or otherwise occupied to raise the Alert Level.

My agenda here is to make a suggestion based upon posts being made about the stresses of playing security and the complaints made about stuns. I knew I was taking a risk when I was posting this.
I'm offering a second opinion. I'm giving my opinions based upon different experiences.

Tornadium wrote:Okay, I challenge you to go play a single round as security without using a taser or a baton.

Then come back to me and tell me how that went.
Wanna know how I play HOS and arrest someone?
Stun, 3 disabler beams, cuff.
That's how you arrest someone at range with this change.

Of course, you can do stun, baton stun, cuff.

>Implying you play 1v1 when arresting.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:52 pm #113940

CPTANT wrote:If an idea is good or not has jack shit to do with how often someone connected to this server.

It's very relevant, actually. Please go complain to bay/goonstation coders how you don't like /tg/station features and see what they say.

This is a problem with HIS server that he has access to change, he can completely remove any and all stuns as much as he sees fit. He has essentially zero insight as to how rounds play out on OUR servers, what the current "meta" strategies are for antags and security, and likely doesn't have the extreme population that we regularly push.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Fri Aug 21, 2015 6:56 pm #113942

Saegrimr wrote:
CPTANT wrote:If an idea is good or not has jack shit to do with how often someone connected to this server.
It's very relevant, actually. Please go complain to bay/goonstation coders how you don't like /tg/station features and see what they say.

This is a problem with HIS server that he has access to change, he can completely remove any and all stuns as much as he sees fit. He has essentially zero insight as to how rounds play out on OUR servers, what the current "meta" strategies are for antags and security, and likely doesn't have the extreme population that we regularly push.

I've regularly had double if not triple the population of Basil for the last week, population is not an issue until you push to 40-60+ in which it's a different story and requires more use of flashbang.

Yes I'm a metastation player and yes it's different. Our metastrategies are different too, but most importantly the base code we use is /tg/station.