Remove sec borg

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:34 am #115553

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11454

Also gives all borgs telebatons (except standard (because they have a stun baton) and syndy)

Incomptinence · Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:37 am

Reasoning other than riding populist i lost plz nerf sentiment like a kite?

tedward1337 · Post by **tedward1337** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:40 am #115555

I kek'd

M0nsoon · Post by **M0nsoon** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:11 am #115564

Why not just recolour it to blue and call it a peacekeeper borg or something of that sort to try and separate it from security so it would give players the idea you just uphold AI/Borg laws and not space law

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:12 am #115565

Standard borg new meta.

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:22 am #115566

M0nsoon wrote:Why not just recolour it to blue and call it a peacekeeper borg or something of that sort to try and separate it from security so it would give players the idea you just uphold AI/Borg laws and not space law

vg tried it

it did nothing

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:45 am #115567

MrStonedOne wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/11454

Also gives all borgs telebatons (except standard (because they have a stun baton) and syndy)

Should still give standard borgs telebatons, because they drain less charge than stun batons.

Also this is a HUGE FUCKING NERF to Malf/traitor/subverted AI. Secborgs are an important tool for malf AI's.

Incomptinence · Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:49 am

They wanna remove AI too. These are the fanatics man.

Post by **MrStonedOne** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:08 am #115569

Incomptinence wrote:They wanna remove AI too. These are the fanatics man.

That is one pr I won't be making.

Post by **oranges** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:22 am #115571

I'm ready to pull the trigger on the AI

Supermichael777 · Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:55 am

Too far but at least other borgs might actually become useful at preventing harm.

Jalleo · Post by **Jalleo** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:18 am #115581

This is too far opinions are screwing the fact that this will remove the only ranged unit a traitor or malf AI can have that is good.

Akkryls · Post by **Akkryls** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:07 am #115583

The only real way this could work would be if all power nerfs to Borgs were reverted as well. Rogue ai's and malf are fucked without sec Borgs.
Reverting the power nerfs means that engineering Borgs could still be useful in their place.

invisty · Post by **invisty** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:23 am #115592

Why don't you just remove standard borg while you're at it? Their low-key baton cheekiness was their main draw card, and now they're gimped engyborgs.

Buff or remove!

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 11:19 am #115596

Dealing with aspect of dealing with secborgs is way too dominant for antags and crew alike.

Either you have the extreme hard counter emp/flash/laser pointer or you get rekt. There is not really any middle way (unless you got some serious lethals and a stupid borg).

Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:41 pm

Akkryls wrote:Rogue ai's and malf are fucked without sec Borgs.

I've been a rogue and malf ai numerous times, And I never felt better about my odds if I had a secborg, or felt like I was fucked if I didn't have one.

I've also only lost one malf ai round.

I made this pr to bring it into the conversation, not because I actually had a strong feeling that it needed to be done, But this conversation is making me see, that secborg is a crutch.

Everybody is panicking about how ai is fucked without secborg, when I won my first malf ai round, without one, pre-ai sat boxstation.
It can be done, it is insanely easy.

and subverted ais? secborg brings nothing to the table that standard or engiborg doesn't. If you have to ziptie them up, you've already fucked up.

cut coms -> beat with mop/fire extinguisher/saw/baton -> restore coms -> restore pda server.

Welcome to stealthily killing somebody as ai 101.

This applies to all ai antag types, everybody always thinks that because they have a secborg, they will be fine, the borg will protect the core from the hos/ce/captain. but borgs are an easy counter, stealthily killing them before anybody knows you are rogue is not.

But nobody does that, because they have their almighty secborg as a crutch.

I was 50/50 before I made this pr, but all of these comments trying to persuade the reader against it, are only pushing me in the other direction.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 12:55 pm #115600

Good luck beating someone when they just run away from you.

Incomptinence · Sat Aug 29, 2015 1:13 pm

Oh we're fine guys we have mops. Reality is borgs will almost never vary their melee again because telebatons are a force 10 weapon with a stun so short you never use anything else if you are killing with it.

Yeah you absolutely don't need a sec borg and you can call it a crutch, like you can call anything that helps you in a game a crutch, flip side of that argument though if it isn't so important nor a combat demon why must it be removed? The hypothetical where some non violent criminal is shouting at it to release him? I haven't seen that come up a ton and admins have always sided against it if it really was rife ban requests would be filled to bursting with ban requests on security borgs it is an uncommon situation usually with it actually being some variant of actually violent behaviour, laws actually changed and those so inarticulate they never make the order. Some just take a few negative experiences however rare and apply it as a stamp to all later experiences with that element of the game. So I can see why you never appreciated security borgs even when they were working for you.

The ranged EMP game is strong enough that sec borgs can barely cope with it and any number of melee only borgs are a total joke before even considering the possibility of area EMP which even the rifle applies a bit of.

TheNightingale · Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:49 pm

The main problem with security borgs is that they're too focused on Space Law, not their laws. That might be because it's called "Security" module...

M0nsoon wrote:Why not just recolour it to blue and call it a peacekeeper borg or something of that sort to try and separate it from security so it would give players the idea you just uphold AI/Borg laws and not space law

This would work, I think.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 2:51 pm #115615

giving every borg a baton might even amplify the problem, half the benefit of other borg modules besides secborgs is they really can't interfere with humans besides some halfhearted flashing, you'll actually see more borgs validhunting after the change..

that's the problem that you're trying to fix right

nobody's actually laid out what the problem is yet

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 4:42 pm #115629

Cik wrote:giving every borg a baton might even amplify the problem, half the benefit of other borg modules besides secborgs is they really can't interfere with humans besides some halfhearted flashing, you'll actually see more borgs validhunting after the change..

that's the problem that you're trying to fix right

nobody's actually laid out what the problem is yet

The core of the "issue", as I see it is how silicons affect antagonists. Players seem to feel that only other human players should be able to have any influence on their rounds.

This all seems to have started from the feeling that antagonists were too ineffective, and the calls for a more lethal station. The movement needed a target, and silicons were the easiest one. I have additional ideas on how to address the problem another way with security being too effective, but that is not related to this thread.

DrPillzRedux · Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:19 pm

The problem with borgs in general, and especially sec borgs, is that they can only be stopped completely. They're either running at full speed or dead in their tracks by a lockdown/flash/whatever. If their movement slowed down as they took damage like humans it wouldn't be so bad.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 5:42 pm #115636

Now every fight you go in is 50/50 you're dead or hes stunned, depending on who can stunbaton or flash first.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 6:06 pm #115638

DrPillzRedux wrote:The problem with borgs in general, and especially sec borgs, is that they can only be stopped completely. They're either running at full speed or dead in their tracks by a lockdown/flash/whatever. If their movement slowed down as they took damage like humans it wouldn't be so bad.

They also lose modules as they take damage.

He can still be mobile but completely helpless.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:41 pm #115644

This is a terrible idea and you should feel terrible.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 7:50 pm #115646

DrPillzRedux wrote:The problem with borgs in general, and especially sec borgs, is that they can only be stopped completely. They're either running at full speed or dead in their tracks by a lockdown/flash/whatever. If their movement slowed down as they took damage like humans it wouldn't be so bad.

They're already slower than humans and you want them to be slower?

DrPillzRedux · Sat Aug 29, 2015 8:07 pm

Shad0vvs wrote:
DrPillzRedux wrote:The problem with borgs in general, and especially sec borgs, is that they can only be stopped completely. They're either running at full speed or dead in their tracks by a lockdown/flash/whatever. If their movement slowed down as they took damage like humans it wouldn't be so bad.
They're already slower than humans and you want them to be slower?

Yes.

They're barely slower than humans and they have weaponry when emagged or hacked. Unless you have access to a flash/laser/whatever, which most don't, you're done. They will hunt you down unless you can find a place to hide for the entire round.

Actionb · Post by **Actionb** » Sat Aug 29, 2015 10:04 pm #115655

Removes a borg class because it's too iconic for validhunting.
Gives all other borgs a validbaton.

This is a joke, right?

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:10 am #115697

I think the fact that the borgs are the crew's bitch unless laws get changed is something that everybody is forgetting. Silicons are inherently stronger than the crew, that's part of their design. They're an integral part of the station. Two things I would support are making the AI or Roboticist (in the absence of an AI) choose the module instead and additional laws for each module (that can be toggled off with a multitool), such as "wanted humans must be brought to the brig" for sec borgs, "aiding the engineers helps prevent harm" for engineering borgs, "boredom is harmful" for entertainment borgs, etc.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 3:17 am #115700

Luke Cox wrote:I think the fact that the borgs are the crew's bitch unless laws get changed is something that everybody is forgetting.

Law 2 is what the borgs are forgetting.

Its not a secborg problem, its a shitty player problem and not enough of them are being silicon banned for willfully ignoring their lawset.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:01 am #115709

Saegrimr wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:I think the fact that the borgs are the crew's bitch unless laws get changed is something that everybody is forgetting.
Law 2 is what the borgs are forgetting.

Its not a secborg problem, its a shitty player problem and not enough of them are being silicon banned for willfully ignoring their lawset.

That too. Adding a law 4 for sec borgs would clarify what they should be doing and whether wanted criminals are automatically harmful.

Shad0vvs · Post by **Shad0vvs** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 4:27 am #115716

Saegrimr wrote:
Luke Cox wrote:I think the fact that the borgs are the crew's bitch unless laws get changed is something that everybody is forgetting.
Law 2 is what the borgs are forgetting.

Its not a secborg problem, its a shitty player problem and not enough of them are being silicon banned for willfully ignoring their lawset.

I fully support sillicon banning any player who acts like this, It already has a long wait time to play and they should know better.
There's even a warning now for sec borgs when you module pick that you even have to follow criminals orders, even though this warning shouldn't be necessary, but I understand why its there.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sun Aug 30, 2015 5:33 am #115722

Keep the sec borg but remove all its weapons. The only thing they can do is politely ask criminals to come with them and beg people to stop hurting eachother.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Fri Sep 04, 2015 7:10 pm #116760

For the sake of gameplay balance I'll be doing my best to keep the AI asimov when I'm captain.

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 3:59 pm #116884

Just rework the way borgs work. Make them module based so each borg can be a custom unit.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 4:05 pm #116887

you mean so each borg will take a meta-optimal module that allows them to validhunt and repair stuff like an engieborg?

Phalanx300 · Post by **Phalanx300** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 5:16 pm #116908

Miauw wrote:you mean so each borg will take a meta-optimal module that allows them to validhunt and repair stuff like an engieborg?

I've made a large suggestion on this before. Essentially you would need to install the modules by inserting the actual items. So if you want a secborg you would need to install an actual Taser/Stunbaton/Handcuffs etc.

There would be a list of accepted items in the code, it would start small but as research progresses the list gets bigger and more powerfull items can be installed in borgs. It would also be possible for antags to create their own "deathborg" by installing say a E-Blade.

Balancing can also be done along the road, increasing the amount of needed research to accept said item if picked too much. Or maybe even adding "weight" to items, making them take more than one available module spot. With limited module slots to work with.

Will this lead to meta builds? Undoubtebly, as is the case in everything. Balancing can be done to stir up the meta, as is usual in games. Giving options however adds immensely to the replayability and unpredictability which is key in a game such as this.

Tunder · Post by **Tunder** » Sat Sep 05, 2015 7:51 pm #116923

This is a bad idea, and it was shot down numerous times for many reasons on the Github without adequate counterargument.

It's populist butthurt at it's worst, and will only detract from the game at large.

Only somebody who never plays lowpop rounds would make a suggestion like this. Secborgs are the bread and butter for Security for a large part of the day.

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 5:32 pm #117740

So you're saying...sec can basically operate without human security. You pretty much just disproved your own point tunder. If sec borgs are so /essential/ then clearly there's an issue because a fully staffed security force is not and should not rely on security cyborgs. This means in high pop rounds traitors are fighting TWO seperate security forces. One that is staffed by humans, and another that is subservient to an invisible telepathic antag hunting god ghost with fire immune, space immune, slip immune, stun immune minions. Traitors fight both of these forces at the same time. Do you understand the issue yet or are you gonna revert to more "butthurt" strawmans and invalidate your arguments further?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Wed Sep 09, 2015 7:11 pm #117777

The Cyborg security force can be enslaved to you and are, by default, incapable of harming you if you're Human (and if they do ahelp the shit out of them. If you're a Lizard, you shouldn't be playing in the first place tbh), can't use flashbangs (which they themselves are vulnerable to) and disabler spam only really works when RnD does some work on giving secborgs a decent battery. And once the cyborg's disabler hits it's empty bar it suddenly can't spam anymore ever without R&D to fix it. Seriously dump your disabler's charge next time you secborg and you'll see what I mean.

You also forget that the AI can also be a traitor and can also randomly receive laws that make them behave in odd ways like herding the crew into the Arrivals shuttle or - if you're lucky, the AI get's a law that declares that only people in your profession are Human. Last I checked, the carbon security force can't be enslaved outside of sling, gang and other meme modes.