/tg/Station 13

This PR makes multiple changes to the standard and alternative wepaons on offer to security personal, and is based on the large discussion from the thread 'Default Lethal Weapons for Security': https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=4472

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There new weapons are now available to security personal to varying degrees.

Weapon Images


Mark 58 Pistol: New standard issue sidearm issued to all security personal replacing the taser. Holds ten rounds per magazine, default ammo is a non-lethal mag with each bullet dealing 60 stamina damage per round. Lethal ammo is located in the armoury with those bullets dealing 25 damage per bullet.

Mark 58 Officer Pistol: Identical to the standard pistol aside from it having a custom wooden grip, issued to the Warden and Head of Security.

WT-550 Automatic Rifle: A high-alert weapon located in the armoury to be deployed in critical and dangerous situations. A PDF with a 20 round magazine, with each bullet dealing 25 damage per bullet. Warden is issued one Auto Rifle at round start.

Z8 Marksman Rifle: Powerful semi-auto weapon issued to the Head of Security. Deals 80 damage per round. But suffers from a slow rate of fire and only having one spare magazine on station.

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Altered Armoury


Main difference is that the bullet proof vests have been moved to the new tac room and have been replaced with three standard Mark 58 Pistols.

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TO-DO
Add new cargo crates for additional ammo and pistols.

Balancing!?!

Refinement.

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Criticism and suggestions are greatly appreciated. This PR is not finished in terms of weapon damage balance but otherwise is fully ready to go.

Steelpoint wrote:Its not set in stone, I also have to nerf the Z8 gun since stuttering also seems to stun people.

The HoS gun is really just a Taser with a Laser function, and considering the fact that the HoS is just as vulnerable as a officer (armour wise) I don't think its a massive problem.

Steelpoint wrote:Three Tasers still spawn in the armoury as normal.

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Oh cool, so they /entire security force plus change/ is now specially tooled to resist nuke ops from roundstart. Better increase all those syndie machineguns to 60 brute to compensate, then buff the revolver and LMG to make them worth their massive cost.

But then you have the problem that they're crushing regular crew, so the crew needs more access to bullet armor to handle syndies/traitors, but then sec are less effective in rev rounds, so...

Miauw wrote:if you want to make eswords and eshields less useful, maybe you should consider nerfing those instead of murdering the sec meta and the energy gun theme.

Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.

Tornadium wrote:

Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.

Gives traitors more options as they no longer need to spend TCs on ballistic weapons because they can be acquired from sec.

Most traitors buy the radio now anyway, they can work together to get ammo pretty damn easily.

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:

Amelius wrote:If this is implemented, I demand that eswords be made much cheaper. The only justification for it being 16 TC for a double esword was because you could force every single sec officer into melee combat. Giving standard ballistic weapons to sec makes it a joke weapon worth 6 TC total (same as an emag), at most.

Also > 60 stam damage. > Giving standard-issue ballistic weaponry to security.

Generally OP, given sec can just ask the nice cargo tech for additional ammo or the HoS/warden, whereas tators won't be able to acquire additional ammo. Also, what the fuck is the point of the sketchkin costing 9 TC when you can loot ANY sec officer and get the exact same gun?

Also, this WILL fuck up any semblance of balance we have. Don't say I didn't warn you. With this PR, every sec officer is literally better-armed than any single antagonist in every single way, and actually has a squad of known allies. Enjoy your banal rounds.

FYI ballistic armor is shit across the board because it's the designated antag-ranged-weapon type. Buffing it will just ruin all ballistics for tators and gang members, and buff security even more.

Gives traitors more options as they no longer need to spend TCs on ballistic weapons because they can be acquired from sec.

Most traitors buy the radio now anyway, they can work together to get ammo pretty damn easily.

> Severely nerf any sort of antagonist (NOT JUST TRAITORS).
> Don't worry, that just gives them more OPTIONS.
ARHGIUHREIUGHIUREOIGHRE

Holy shit, this forum is garbage. I swear, if this is implemented I'm switching servers, this is the most ill-thought out PR I've seen, and I've seen ALOT of shitty PRs.

Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.

Do you even play this game? I sit around as nonantag, and more happens due to bored nonantagonists than from actual slings, clings, traitors, wizard (extended: MAGIC EDITION), or cult especially. All the other modes are in an a good place, but those five almost always feel like extended (fortunately, bombs or singuloth mercifully ends the round in tator/ling), and is probably the only major thing that actually occurs). In case you're wondering, given the current rates, that's 53% of all rounds.

So yeah, no.

Tornadium wrote:Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.

Tornadium wrote:

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:Sec is severely underpowered and shitty vs nearly every antagonist at the moment.

Do you even play this game? I sit around as nonantag, and more happens due to bored nonantagonists than from actual slings, clings, traitors, wizard (extended: MAGIC EDITION), or cult especially. All the other modes are in an a good place, but those five almost always feel like extended (fortunately, bombs or singuloth mercifully ends the round in tator/ling), and is probably the only major thing that actually occurs). In case you're wondering, given the current rates, that's 53% of all rounds.

So yeah, no.

Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.

Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:Yeah, On sunday night we had all of sec get murderboned by two traitors with revolvers and the round after Emily Ranger was stunned 8 times in a single fight and kept getting back up due to adrenal and killed 3 sec officers in the fight and still got away.

You're exaggerating, Any competent antag can fucking destroy sec, especially gangs/nuke/traitor.

I just emagged myself a nice little path between arrivals, cargo, engineering, to rd/science and just ran around revolvering 15 people before I got bored.

Any competent antag can go around and murder all of security with nothing but a bottle of water and cablecuffs. Does that mean the game should be balanced around them? No.

If we're gonna make sec a handholding experience where you can't fail unless you fuck up in a huge way, then the game is going to turn to shit. If we're balancing around the best *antagonist* player, instead of the average of median, nothing is going to be left to kill each other but throwing spears, reserving top-tier equipment for vetted security with chem implants mandatory for transfers. Revolvers kill in two hits, yes, but tasers effectively do in one, and buying a revolver (12 or 13 TC), means you can either get an emag, or adrenals. Adrenals mean you're a one-trick-pony, and if you don't manage to get access to a lathe and metal, you're fucked very early on, and lasers will still wreck you. Emag means the moment anyone manages to stun you once, you're dead.

Also, adrenals don't even have 8 charges. You're exaggerating.

"A competent antag can annihilate the usual mouth-breathing idiots on the sec team with a revolver" is NOT a reason to fuck up the balance for 50% of all rounds.

Tornadium wrote:

Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances

This PR isn't to counter lasers, It's to give Security more options and (oh my god) add some new stuff to the game for security.

Ballistics are meant to be deadly, Right now Gang, Ops and Traitor slaughter sec. This puts them on a bit of a more level playing field and still allows Antags to acquire ballistics through Security and Cargo.

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:

Shaps wrote:Security mostly uses lasers, so naturally antags began to get more and more ways to counter lasers.
Now people are thinking that maybe there's too many counters to lasers, so we just decide to swap to ballistics because there's way fewer counters to it?

That's ridiculous, the reason that there are almost no counters to bullets compared to counters to lasers is because very few people actually use bullets. I guarantee you that if we add more ballistic guns to the station, defenses against bullets are going to be buffed over time to the point where bullets and lasers will be pretty much interchangeable, and we'll be right back where we started. If there's an issue where juggernauts are unstoppable against the standard laser rifles sec has, nerf the juggernaut's reflection, don't just add new special snowflake weapons that ignore those resistances

This PR isn't to counter lasers, It's to give Security more options and (oh my god) add some new stuff to the game for security.

Ballistics are meant to be deadly, Right now Gang, Ops and Traitor slaughter sec. This puts them on a bit of a more level playing field and still allows Antags to acquire ballistics through Security and Cargo.

> Traitors slaughter sec.

Oh god. Gangs convert not kill security most of the time, and it's designed that way in the first place so that sec doesn't have a domineering influence on the rounds that's oriented around gang v.s. gang combat, not gang v.s. station. Ops slaughter sec because it's 5v50, and they need to have powerful equipment to do so, and sec are first-responders anyway so of course they die first. Traitors flat out do not slaughter security, barring exceptions.

Tornadium wrote:Fuck off, Sec lose far more than they win. Antag used to be about playing smart, right now it's

-Are you robust?

If yes win
If not lose

Traitors basically always work together now with the headsets, They fucking WRECK sec.

Wyzack wrote:GIVE TRAITORS NEW STUFF RATHER THAN SITTING ON YOUR THUMBS BITCHING ABOUT HOW SEC SHOULD NOT HAVE NEW STUFF

seriously, the game gets fucking boring when nothing ever changes. Why not give every antag type exciting new things rather than screeching that nothing should change ever

Amelius wrote:

Tornadium wrote:Fuck off, Sec lose far more than they win. Antag used to be about playing smart, right now it's

-Are you robust?

If yes win
If not lose

Oh, are you referring to about half a year ago when we had helmetcams, infinitely spammable flashes (STILL A PROBLEM BTW), further slashed antag rates (SoS, may or may not be fixed), secmaint (still have it), ridiculous sec armor (basically re-added) and so forth? You know, when security was a gigantic coddlemachine that was literally impossible to fail capturing any antagonist, which still basically works similarly today? Flashbang and/or flash spam if no HUDs + Bowman, taze, arrest. If an officer hollered while dying and located the antagonist, then proceed to instead swarm the entire sec force on one antags position, because fucknothing ever happens in traitor/ling rounds. Proceed to watch antagonist get shrekted by a secborg and the entire secforce. Repeat for all 7 traitors.

Traitors basically always work together now with the headsets, They fucking WRECK sec.

Not in my experience.

I feel like this change is far too drastic.
This basically removes energy weapons from the game. If we wanted to give security a lethal sidearm we could have given them a small laser pistol that has to recharge a mag instead of just sticking the gun in a recharger. Perhaps in exchange for this being unwieldy it would be much more resistant to EMPs.

Also this kind of rips on the Detective's style. Maybe buff his revolver since ballistic lethal weapons are everywhere now.

Kel wrote:I'll just copypaste what I said on singulo.

I feel like this change is far too drastic.
This basically removes energy weapons from the game. If we wanted to give security a lethal sidearm we could have given them a small laser pistol that has to recharge a mag instead of just sticking the gun in a recharger. Perhaps in exchange for this being unwieldy it would be much more resistant to EMPs.

Also this kind of rips on the Detective's style. Maybe buff his revolver since ballistic lethal weapons are everywhere now.

EDIT: also hiding the lethal ammo in the armoury defeats the entire purpose of having a lethal sidearm that all officers have access to. Wasn't the whole point of this to buff security so they actually can stand a chance against half the antags?

Amelius wrote:Also more issues:

Ammunition is tough to replace and relies on R&D or cargo along with crazy amounts of metal and will likely be very difficult to obtain for non-sec/cargo/R&D, and even then, if you don't kill all your co-workers then you'll almost surely be narced on unless you're an officer. Switching standard issue tasers for projectile weapons necessitates taking over cargo/R&D as an antagonist to use a projectile weapon for more than one kill, which is terrible design when the alternative is being able to recharge a weapon at any sec outpost on the station.

Seriously, worst proposed changes ever and it'll make the game utterly unplayable for months.