Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

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CPTANT
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Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118539

The taser has been one of the most debated weapons in the game for a long time. Many of the counter arguments to removing them have to do with balance.

It is my opinion that the taser makes fire fights completely uninteresting by determining the outcome be a single hit or miss. Fire fights in which multiple shots are fired by each side and damage is accumulated over the exchange of those shots is inherently more interesting. This has in fact nothing to with balance, it is determined by the fact that reacting to lethal situations is FUN, dropping to the floor without a possibility to react is not. This mechanic also places a HUGE emphasize on getting the drop on someone.

Disablers are very different in that the first hit does prevent you from outrunning your attacker, but this makes you far from helpless to try other methods.

melee ranged and slips are another story as their application is completely different.

The taser should be removed as an inherently flawed gameplay mechanic and other (security) equipment rebalanced to deal with the new situation.

Yes there are buffs possible that prevent security from being impotent when the taser is removed. I will not state specific buffs because you will just bicker around about those.

This is to address the issue that the taser is a fundamentally flawed aspect in fire fights.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118540

And yet we and other servers have gone this far without a problem. Why now?
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Steelpoint » #118541

To be fair some servers, mostly goon, make all ranged weapons deal MASSIVE damage on targets without armour, and their taser is a two shot stun. This means using a lethal weapon versus a stunning weapon are not too different aside from one not killing the target.

I recall the basic Laser dealing 75 damage per round as well as some stamina damage I think, everything else just gets nastier.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Stickymayhem » #118543

A single shot making the difference between life and death makes every fight and every dodge tense as fuck.

the reaction comes before the first shot is fired. When someone whips out a taser, or you see an officer coming for you, you should already be reacting by finding cover, juking, and using literally everything at your disposal to respond or slow them down, whether it's closing doors behind you, grabbed crates or people to throw them in the way or using your own weapons.

It's not a flawed gameplay mechanic, it's the basis for our whole combat system. It allows security to do their job effectively while not being ridiculously overpowered given that it's only five short ranged shots. The limited range and ammo are what you're supposed to abuse to beat them. If you run straight at a guy with a taser like a retard, in game or real life, you deserve to get killed.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118544

Saegrimr wrote:And yet we and other servers have gone this far without a problem. Why now?
I find the statement "without a problem" dubious. Taser stuns have completely dominated lethal combat for ages and there have been multiple attempts to reduce their influence such as the range reduction, firing delay and the attempts to replace them. Those were either rolled back or ineffective at addressing the issue. Tasers have always been the apex weapon against humanoids (exceptions are eswords etc of course). This has the the issues I have addressed in my OP of making fire fights a lot less interesting than they could be and it degrades the fear factor and desirability of plain lethal weapons.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118545

/vg/ hasn't even gone into the turbo nerf territory we have where paprika forced disablers on everybody and reduced taser range and ammo to nearly nothing.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118546

Steelpoint wrote:To be fair some servers, mostly goon, make all ranged weapons deal MASSIVE damage on targets without armour, and their taser is a two shot stun. This means using a lethal weapon versus a stunning weapon are not too different aside from one not killing the target.

I recall the basic Laser dealing 75 damage per round as well as some stamina damage I think, everything else just gets nastier.
Yes something like this is a lot more interesting than being able to take either 5 laser hits (without armour, lol) or 1 taser hit.

Of course 75 damage per shot would probably be overkill for tg. But going to a system where a taze takes 2/3 shots (disablers) and lethals weren't as crap would in my opinion a good direction to go.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118547

Saegrimr wrote:/vg/ hasn't even gone into the turbo nerf territory we have where paprika forced disablers on everybody and reduced taser range and ammo to nearly nothing.
You call this nerf territory, but as I mentioned part of the plan is to rebalance other aspects. This should include good solid buffs to lethal weapons (yes also those things sec has). Disablers could also use an ammo buff.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Malkevin » #118554

Combat is stun based, just now stuns are half arsed

The problem is lag, as soon as the pair of you start dodging all of a sudden your mob sprites are literally blinking in out several tiles away from where they used to be.
When your only lethal ranged weapon requires 50% accuracy its just not good enough, which is why stun em then kill em is the name of the game.

Compare that to the LMG or Borg Laser or old Pulse Rifles which have so many shots that loss of accuracy isn't a problem.


So to answer your question: Because lasers are wank and disablers are way to easy to recover from.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Jacquerel » #118556

The difficulty is in creating a non-lethal option that can't also be used as a lethal option.
Strong disabling options that take effect faster than someone can kill you are important for security to make it so that you don't always feel you must react first with lethal force, but often can also just then be used to instantly win an actually lethal fight too.

Unless you give security a gun that puts people into "stasis" where they are stunned but also invincible, it's difficult to solve.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118558

Jacquerel wrote:The difficulty is in creating a non-lethal option that can't also be used as a lethal option.
Consider this then, maybe the problem isn't the stuns but with lethals?

Maybe this is why essentially every other game with similar non/lethal options, the lethal option is always the fastest and most efficient while nonlethal requires more effort.

The problem is when your lethals are so goddamn garbage its more efficient to throw them out of an airlock after a stun than it is to switch over to lasers.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Steelpoint » #118559

As I said, on some servers Lethals are just as good, if not better, at downing people.

It would be amusing if we went with a Hardcore PR that buffed most firearms in game to deal high damage, but armour in game has higher defence against ranged weapons.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Bluespace » #118560

realtalk though, aiming is ss13 is fucking aids. with no lag i'll hit 8/10 taser shots. with lag i could miss them all. laggy rounds need tasers.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118568

Saegrimr wrote:
Jacquerel wrote:The difficulty is in creating a non-lethal option that can't also be used as a lethal option.
Consider this then, maybe the problem isn't the stuns but with lethals?

Maybe this is why essentially every other game with similar non/lethal options, the lethal option is always the fastest and most efficient while nonlethal requires more effort.

The problem is when your lethals are so goddamn garbage its more efficient to throw them out of an airlock after a stun than it is to switch over to lasers.
Well in a way yes, I would say it is mostly the relative balance between the two that is messed up.

Buffing certain lethals, ESPECIALLY lasers is something I would do whether or not tasers get changed, the damage output and clip size of lasers is just pathetic.

Lethals should be a form of escalation, more effective in a serious fight, but without the option to subdue someone without harm.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Scones » #118569

CPTANT wrote:Lethals should be a form of escalation, more effective in a serious fight, but without the option to subdue someone without harm.
I don't see how this is not already the case

The medical system is too simplistic -> Damage is boring and only appears in the form of a raw number with no complex effects -> frontloading damage weapons are resultingly uninteresting

And so we use stuns for everything
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118571

CPTANT wrote:Lethals should be a form of escalation, more effective in a serious fight, but without the option to subdue someone without harm.
Honestly I disagree, lethals shouldn't be escalation. They should be LETHAL. The end to the fight, not a step on the ladder.
The balance appears to be fucked because of this assumption that lasering someone is some sort of standard rung on the way to killing them with something else.

How much do you think would change if people knew that once they saw lasers shit was going down, and to get far the fuck away instead of tasers?
Would people be less terrified of tasers/batons considering they're going out of their way to stun you when they could just tag you once or twice with a laser and you're gone without a chance to bargain or even scream?
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118572

Scones wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Lethals should be a form of escalation, more effective in a serious fight, but without the option to subdue someone without harm.
I don't see how this is not already the case

The medical system is too simplistic -> Damage is boring and only appears in the form of a raw number with no complex effects -> frontloading damage weapons are resultingly uninteresting

And so we use stuns for everything
The problem is that lethals are absolutely not effective compared to stuns at downing people, you need 5 lasers shots (out of a whooping 10 in a rifle. and that is without someone wearing armour) to subdue someone or use 1 taser shot.

If both options required around 2-4 shots to disable someone things would be a lot more interesting.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Steelpoint » #118574

If we make Lasers more effective all armour (antag and station) would need to be buffed to compensate, in addition this would make killing rampages ever more deadly since now one guy with one Laser rifle could kill a lot of unarmoured people before running out of power.

This really depends on what we want in balance terms.

Goonstation gets away with high lethality due to a combination of their complicated health and defence system allowing them to do very lethal weapons, in addition to their playerbases very high tolerance for dying (AKA: Shit happens).

I don't know if we can do the same.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Scones » #118575

Steelpoint wrote:If we make Lasers more effective all armour (antag and station) would need to be buffed to compensate,
This obsession with making everything ezmode for antagonists is the single most definitive thing killing this subforum and tg balance in general, and is more or less why I have entirely lost interest in taking the combat with any degreeof seriousness
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Steelpoint » #118576

Its why I'm not a fan of buffing lethal fire arms without a impossible overhaul.

I guess it might be fine in buffing the actual ammo capacity.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118577

Saegrimr wrote:
CPTANT wrote:Lethals should be a form of escalation, more effective in a serious fight, but without the option to subdue someone without harm.
Honestly I disagree, lethals shouldn't be escalation. They should be LETHAL. The end to the fight, not a step on the ladder.
The balance appears to be fucked because of this assumption that lasering someone is some sort of standard rung on the way to killing them with something else.

How much do you think would change if people knew that once they saw lasers shit was going down, and to get far the fuck away instead of tasers?
Would people be less terrified of tasers/batons considering they're going out of their way to stun you when they could just tag you once or twice with a laser and you're gone without a chance to bargain or even scream?
I am not quite sure what you are trying to say in the first part. Killing people is a form of escalation isn't it?



If we are going to talk about numbers I would say 25 burn damage and ~14 shots in a clip would be a good change for lasers.

It makes them hit harder without things becoming an instant murderbone shootfest (ops get dunked while having vastly superior equipment to that btw).
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Wyzack » #118581

BUFF LASERS HOLY SHIT PLEASE
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118585

Steelpoint wrote:If we make Lasers more effective all armour (antag and station) would need to be buffed to compensate,
I'm not sure why it was reduced in the first place, wasn't the idea to make guns more lethal against armored opponents anyway? Same effect, different number being changed.
Steelpoint wrote:in addition this would make killing rampages ever more deadly since now one guy with one Laser rifle could kill a lot of unarmoured people before running out of power.
And people with actual armor roll in and take him out just as easily. Two-for-one, combat becomes more lethal for obvious reasons, and sec remains that thing you don't fuck around with unless you're prepared.

Everything else you've basically summed it up. Somewhere along the way people here have forgotten how to deal with being dead.
CPTANT wrote:I am not quite sure what you are trying to say in the first part. Killing people is a form of escalation isn't it?
Where do you escalate from "he's dead"?
He's dead. That's (should be) the end of it. There's no more escalation.

The unfortunate problem here as you stated is dealing with Ops, which the crew becomes significantly less of a threat but the ops vs sec would probably not change at all since both are armored.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Atticat » #118599

Saegrimr wrote:/vg/ hasn't even gone into the turbo nerf territory we have where paprika forced disablers on everybody and reduced taser range and ammo to nearly nothing.
paprika can't force the maintainers to do anything, or am I wrong here???
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Incomptinence » #118601

The current iteration of tasers has been nerfed to fuck and back and they wet their pants at the thought of sec not being crippled. Taser delay basically makes you the slowest gun in the space west when it's your drat job to fight invaders.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Scones » #118602

Incomptinence wrote:The current iteration of tasers has been nerfed to fuck and back and they wet their pants at the thought of sec not being crippled. Taser delay basically makes you the slowest gun in the space west when it's your drat job to fight invaders.
It was removed though
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Incomptinence » #118604

Oh thank goodness. Well I guess many people value the range limitation too highly then "IS THEIR RANGE LIMITED LIKE TASERS UNLIKE YOU KNOW THE REST OF THE PROJECTILE WEAPONS IN THE GAME?" was one of the first things to come up in the pistol PRs.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by lumipharon » #118610

Revolvers clearly show that lethals can be far, far more effective at putting people down then stunning people.
double clicking someone effective stuns far, far longer then a taser, ending with death if no one else is around, and you can do it before the target has a chance to react.

Basically, lasers are just really shit and need more damage and/or capacity.
Someone tried to buff it but it got rejected.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Anonmare » #118615

Personally I don't mind tasers in their current incarnation though maybe making them a two shot stun would make them less GG no re. And someone mentioned buffing lasers earlier and I agree, though mostly in terms of ammo supply.
Ballistics should be the most dangerous weapons the crew should get access to in lethal terms - outside of really exotic weapons like admin-spawned guns, Death Squad/ERT and X-ray guns. But, have limitations like small ammo capacity and being hard to get more ammo for. So you could, in theory, get a Tommy Gun but good look on going on a meaningful spree killing without any way to get more ammo.
Energy weapons should be less damaging (relatively speaking), but have larger "clip" size. So one laser won't down you, but, that guy with the laser gun can shit out 30 or so before he runs dry and isn't constrained by the logistics of ammo.

Ballistics and energy should have clear distinctions is what I'm driving at with lethals being the escalation ender.
Non-lethals like tasers are in a 'fine' place for me, though making the stun a two shot wouldn't go a miss.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by TheNightingale » #118616

If we make the taser a two-shot stun, it means it's a whole lot harder to deal with petty criminals (unfortunately, a taser's prime target these days). Maybe if it forced the target to drop their held item as well (unless they have a no-drop implant)?
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Kel » #118623

All of this can be solved by making lasers kick ass.
Make lasers kick ass. Please.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Wyzack » #118624

Kel wrote:All of this can be solved by making lasers kick ass.
Make lasers kick ass. Please.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Cheimon » #118626

I don't agree that lasers ought to be really deadly.

They're a mid-tier weapon. They're not weak as shit (they're better than literally anything in one-hand melee except the swords), they're pretty common, and they're mildly effective. They trade certain advantages (recharging, firing through windows) for some disadvantages (lower damage, no magazines). Did I mention they're really easy to get hold of as security? If you're stuck, you can normally arm the whole team with one each.

Sure, they're not revolvers. But why the fuck do we want everyone to have really strong ranged weapons all of a sudden? A laser gun is the secure knowledge that you can kill at least one person. Since security is supposed to operate as a team, that's all it needs to be. They're not that bad, and they're not that good. They're mid tier. That's fine.

If you want something strong, shit, get the riot shotguns out, saw them off, and put slugs in them. Not that tricky. Or just ask science for some, that's what the box of pins in the armoury is for. Security doesn't need deadly as fuck lasers and making them so will just mean there's no reason to go beyond them when they're your basic harming ranged gun.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Scott » #118627

What? Are you saying Security just needs to git gud? WHAAAAAT?
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by lumipharon » #118629

Most people don't seem to realise that riot shotguns fit in the exosuit slot of all armour type things, which is nice, since sec caneasily carry them, but people stealing them can't conceal them without sawing them down.
If sec had an autolathe so they could print their own shells though, I would totally rock the riot shotgun every round - it's swag as fuck.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by iamgoofball » #118639

Steelpoint wrote:Goonstation gets away with high lethality due to a combination of their complicated health and defence system allowing them to do very lethal weapons, in addition to their playerbases very high tolerance for dying (AKA: Shit happens).
we need to adopt this "shit happens" playstyle, it's good for the game
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Incomptinence » #118641

Having a few slugs like maybe four in the armoury for emergencies would be nice the armour stamina bug on syndisuits pretty much explains away why I never managed to down one with beanbags.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Atticat » #118644

iamgoofball wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:Goonstation gets away with high lethality due to a combination of their complicated health and defence system allowing them to do very lethal weapons, in addition to their playerbases very high tolerance for dying (AKA: Shit happens).
we need to adopt this "shit happens" playstyle, it's good for the game

Losing is fun. Your description also reminds me of lifeweb Steelpoint. I believe there is a similar sentiment in both designs.
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Amelius » #118680

FYI, you don't know what you're asking for. Disabler buffs will ruin whatever semblance of balance we have. I mean, disabler mode removes the sole disadvantage of the taser - limited ammo, allowing you to spam 20+ shots randomly with infinite range, and landing one makes the other two very easy to accomplish. Contrast to the taser where you get only 5 short-range shots. Furthermore, being downed by a disabler means even if you manage to outlast the stun, you'll start off at excruciatingly slow speeds which results in an easy dunk - another merit compared to the taser. The sole dismerit is having to hit 3 times to down someone, which isn't much of a point given after you get the first hit in, the other two become exceedingly easy to nail.

I don't like disablers because it removes a great deal of skill. It requires no skill to hit, has a low skill cap, goes through windows, no mindgames, and most of all, no longer is it even borderline feasible that an unarmed assistant simply juke all the ammunition.

The only place the taser is more effective, is in maint, in a group hostile situation (e.g. rev), or at shortish range. It's just not the meta because everyone is used to using the vanilla taser mode, similar to how it took a long time for flash spamming to become meta despite how OP they were for so long.

Buffing lasers is a good way to go though. Keep eguns the same for the versatility, buff laser gun capacity along with damage so you have a tradeoff.
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Bluespace
Joined: Fri Apr 18, 2014 1:04 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Bluespace » #118711

disablers are legit real powerful when used correctly. that slowdown will fuck you up and they can just put down 20 shots ez pzzzzzz.
tasers i can juke disablers i can't.
I play Boris Pepper.
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CPTANT
Joined: Mon May 04, 2015 1:31 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by CPTANT » #118713

It seems people are both saying that sec will become impotent without tasers and simultaneously that disablers are already way better.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Oldman Robustin
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Oldman Robustin » #118751

Tasers are fine, and their relative power to disablers depends on context.

If I'm just fleeing security I would much rather dodge tasers, which are easier to see, have limited range, limited ammo, etc. than bloody disablers where you can just spray them down a hall and if even one hit connects you're probably done for.

On the other hand if I have ranged arms of my own (e.g. Bulldog, Revolver, or even the vanilla pistol) I would much rather tank a couple disabler shots before downing an officer than get plinked by a single taser and its GGnoRE.

There are plenty of rounds where using a disabler would make absolutely no difference to me, but there are also a few rounds like NukeOps and Gang War where I'd sooner throw myself out an airlock than try to play disabler v. ballistic weaponry (NukeOps alone practically force the captain to raid armory for a taser, trying to fend off a bulldog stealthop with a disabler is suicide).
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Luke Cox
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Luke Cox » #118808

What if tasers were just shorter range, like in real life?
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Saegrimr
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:39 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Saegrimr » #118810

Taser range already got severely reduced, what more do you want? Might as well just whip out the baton.
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Cheimon
Joined: Tue May 20, 2014 6:53 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Cheimon » #118819

In real life tasers are also one-shot, not reliable if someone is wearing any kind of thick clothing, and insert two barbed needles into people.

Real world mechanics do not make good gameplay mechanics if you want non-lethal sec.
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sirnat
Joined: Mon Oct 13, 2014 8:27 pm
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by sirnat » #118856

I just dont like how tazers are, "Im hit, im fucked now unless I've got a stimulant disease" and even then you're fucked if they shoot you again.

Why cant we remove tazers, and replace them with the sec pistols steel made?
Amelius
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Amelius » #118858

sirnat wrote:I just dont like how tazers are, "Im hit, im fucked now unless I've got a stimulant disease" and even then you're fucked if they shoot you again.

Why cant we remove tazers, and replace them with the sec pistols steel made?
Because they fuck balance in basically every game mode. I'm sick of writing a wall of text, so that's my summary.
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sirnat
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by sirnat » #118859

How do they fuck balance? They do stamina damage, just like a disabler.

Or just make tazers disablers instead.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by Steelpoint » #118860

I'm not changing Tasers to Ballistics anymore.
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sirnat
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Re: Why do people want to keep tasers so badly?

Post by sirnat » #118861

Why not allow the guards to choose the ballistic over tazer though?
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