Changeling rounds are boring as hell

[CPTANT]

Bottom post of the previous page:

I wouldn't DIRECTLY copy goons ling, but the concept is way better.

[Oldman Robustin]

having tough antags that can actually do shit without having to worry as much about dying is worlds more entertaining than changelings getting stunned, cuffed, and gibbed five minutes into the round and having pseudo-extended

EXACTLY.

I know I've been able to play much more aggressively now that I actually have enough chems to do shit. Lings were removed because they had become so impotent every ling round turned into extended where 1-2 active lings would get rekt in 5 minutes and the others would be so scared they wouldn't do anything.

Coders should fix teamling first and foremost, see how that plays out when they actually have shared objectives. I really want to see the lings take over a department and impersonate its members.

I think that lings can at least capture SOME of the horror they should induce now. Yes its not parasting-tier horror of "NOBODY STAND NEAR ME!" but the Ling resilience means they can actually take on security now which also means they can carry out more brazen abductions/killings knowing that the first security officer to spot them isn't a death sentence.

[invisty]

I dont know about you guys but I hardly consider a X-second-window to call for help an interesting or fair game mechanic.

A good mechanic for ling is your ability to trust others, either opting to stay in groups or alone. This should be emphasized in any implementation of new changeling mechanics.

[Incomptinence]

Parasting caused grouping behavior because of distrust bizzaro, what are you even talking about? Ling tests?

EXACTLY.

I know I've been able to play much more aggressively now that I actually have enough chems to do shit. Lings were removed because they had become so impotent every ling round turned into extended where 1-2 active lings would get rekt in 5 minutes and the others would be so scared they wouldn't do anything.

Coders should fix teamling first and foremost, see how that plays out when they actually have shared objectives. I really want to see the lings take over a department and impersonate its members.

I think that lings can at least capture SOME of the horror they should induce now. Yes its not parasting-tier horror of "NOBODY STAND NEAR ME!" but the Ling resilience means they can actually take on security now which also means they can carry out more brazen abductions/killings knowing that the first security officer to spot them isn't a death sentence.

Yes that is well and good the thing is it is effective to the point I don't see why a competent player would lose a fight with proper chem management and a hard suit to save on points spent on armour and to prevent needing the take panacea (preventing injections means most toxin damage/sleep won't happen at all).

Emphasis on fight though they are having wonderful fun wandering around near immortal and killing people but they ain't doing their objectives still. Ling steal objectives just show how much coders misunderstand the pile of jank they created sure it can kill ten guys no sweat now but it still has next to no theft tools and too many drat objectives.

[DaemonBomb]

next to no theft tools

They have a door jack that doubles as a robust weapon, invisibility to the AI, the ability to become other people, and a vent crawl form, among many many other things. Changelings are just ignoring the steal objectives so they can murderbone.

[ShadowDimentio]

Bring back parasting.

[Incomptinence]

Lesser form does not factor into theft much because they can't carry anything and vent crawl. Utterly hilarious when there is no captain tho.

The become people to steal their stuff shit is busted as hell and plain does not work. You need to kill someone in a particular job mostly without people knowing then snatch it. It's basically a murder objective except you are racing against anyone else who wants it and most of those take a more direct route than kill a guy hide him then walk all the way back. The important thing being stolen here is the access not the identity and any traitor can do that better anyway, they don't bother because they have better options than ring around the rosie with engineers or whatever.

Doorjack armblade is a good start I will give you that.

[Helios]

What about severly lowering the chances of team changeling, and introducing changeling as a solo antag that has a 50% chance to appear in all rounds, including malf, nuke ops, and even blob.
Then you could have the objective of getting the DNA of a nuclear operative which would be an interesting challenge.

[Zilenan91]

That's what datum antags will do if anyone ever finishes them.

[Alex Crimson]

Like ive been saying for over a fucking year now(probably), bring back parasting. Remove all the shitty abilities that make lings tanky as fuck and were just copied from Traitor items. Remove DNA sting. Hell, just revert the entire antag back to when parasting was around. Sure its annoying to be para+muted, but it was infinitely more fun that the current ling style with all its murderbone-enabling rubbish.

[ChangelingRain]

Parasting wasn't fun to get hit by, but it did cause some stuff that was pretty nice, like the paranoia(I can't remember the last time I saw people scared to enter maint) and how dangerous people thus considered lings.
Get me better changelings

[DaemonBomb]

You know what's more fun than Changelings? The Thing. Let's make Changelings a sneaky antag that can go into a horror mode to very, very effectively incapacitate single targets for absorption (DNA sting is stupid and you all know it. I've greentexted before without killing a single person as Ling, all I have to do to become the Head of Security is chill near the brig.). They can only be killed by being burned to a husk, being blown up, being incinerated, or being (Maybe, this isn't very true to the film but whatever) gibbed. Give it a few scary looking, but very vulnerable, escape modes too, like the weird head-spider from the defib scene of The Thing, that it can use if it's sent into crit.

Also, if the Ling goes into one of it's horror modes it should probably destroy any exosuits it's wearing so they can't just be invincible in a firesuit. It'd be pretty neat if finding a torn up jacket on the floor or something was a sign of lings.

Even if the Ling doesn't do anything, as soon as it's discovered people will start making flamethrowers and dragging around plasma canisters. They'll run off into maint and try to find the things, they'll get ambushed. Lings will actually get more access and DNA while still staying somewhat hidden.

I wanna walk into a maint tunnel, lit only by my PDA, and come across a monstrosity that is absorbing some lone wolf assistant, the poor guy still alive, screaming "BURN IT! BURN IT!" as they're assimilated. I wanna grab a firesuit as the thing shambles away and go racing after it with a can of plasma, before getting ambushed by it's buddies.

I wanna watch the station go up in flames as twitchy sec officers try to use flamethrowers in crowded lynch mobs.

I want consequences for being alone, but I don't want to "feel a tiny prick" and go into a coma for twenty years while everyone else waits around, gets bored, and calls the shuttle. I also don't want a stealth antag going on a rampage because that's silly.

I understand that this is a silly idea, but I wanted to remind people that we don't just have to buff/nerf ling or switch back to parasting. Ling can be any of hundreds of variations on "hard to kill and turns into people".

[Alex Crimson]

Parasting wasn't fun to get hit by, but it did cause some stuff that was pretty nice, like the paranoia(I can't remember the last time I saw people scared to enter maint) and how dangerous people thus considered lings.
Get me better changelings

Yeah pretty much. The paranoia was the best. Anyways, there are so many ways to get back into the round now, and we have cloning machine upgrades that allow us to clone husks. Oldling wuldnt be nearly as annoying now.

[AnonymousNow]

Just had an instance of stunprod + mute sting, and it's giving me PSTD.

[Scones]

having tough antags that can actually do shit without having to worry as much about dying is worlds more entertaining than changelings getting stunned, cuffed, and gibbed five minutes into the round and having pseudo-extended

EXACTLY.

I know I've been able to play much more aggressively now that I actually have enough chems to do shit. Lings were removed because they had become so impotent every ling round turned into extended where 1-2 active lings would get rekt in 5 minutes and the others would be so scared they wouldn't do anything.

These two posts are pretty much "rot of the game" tier ideologies that are in part responsible for the game being so unimaginably stale lately. You can lose as an antagonist? To people who are intended to be able to stop antagonists? What the fuck that's the most horrible thing I've ever heard, priority issue, 100% gamebreaking. I hate to have to evidently be the one to say it, but antagonist is not supposed to be easy.

Let me say it again, because this is a prevailing misconception that clearly needs some cleanup.

ANTAGONIST ROLES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY.

You do not need an inherent advantage. You already had all the tools to succeed - If you want to go on a rampage, it should be padded by your proficiency in the game, not raw number buffs so you can be carried by passive stats. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is a mistake in general, but doing so for antagonists is just embarrassing.

In summary: A player issue, not a code. If people are bad at an antagonist, that does not mean the role is bad - SImply the players.

My point being really that changeling will not be good until people become good at playing changeling.

[Scott]

First you complain about Changelings being too chicken shit to satisfy the bloodlust of security players.

Then when Changelings can manfight, you complain the security players need easy wins.

My point being really that security will not be good until people become good at playing security.

[Scones]

First you complain about Changelings being too chicken shit to satisfy the bloodlust of security players.

lol

[lumipharon]

Somewhat ironically, I hate changling more then any other roundtype, but I actually enjoy playing as a ling to a fair degree.

Why? Because most people seriously play it like shit.
People either get caught early like retards, or do nothing all shift like retards.

Even before the buffs, I only ever had ling turned on, because my logic is that since I can't stop ling rounds from happening, atleast I can make it more interesting.
Attacking the brig from space round start for shits and giggles, with whatever other lings I can get to come with is hilariously fun, and depending on how many sec, often succeeds and ends with ling station.

Being a normal ling though, my #1 issue is the motherfucking AI. Even with the emp camera changes, that cocksucker still seems to find me 90% of the time if I try emp then kill someone.
So the obvious solution is to just emp monkey round start and gank the AI. It's very hard to counter unless they're extremely fast, an after that, it's so much safer to operate as a ling, without worrying about getting ratted out by the invisible AI, or getting bolted down without warning.

Making engorged ballsacks base line was fine, but not with the ability still available for purchase on top of that.

But basically yeah, huge ass player problem.

[PKPenguin321]

having tough antags that can actually do shit without having to worry as much about dying is worlds more entertaining than changelings getting stunned, cuffed, and gibbed five minutes into the round and having pseudo-extended

EXACTLY.

I know I've been able to play much more aggressively now that I actually have enough chems to do shit. Lings were removed because they had become so impotent every ling round turned into extended where 1-2 active lings would get rekt in 5 minutes and the others would be so scared they wouldn't do anything.

These two posts are pretty much "rot of the game" tier ideologies that are in part responsible for the game being so unimaginably stale lately. You can lose as an antagonist? To people who are intended to be able to stop antagonists? What the fuck that's the most horrible thing I've ever heard, priority issue, 100% gamebreaking. I hate to have to evidently be the one to say it, but antagonist is not supposed to be easy.

Let me say it again, because this is a prevailing misconception that clearly needs some cleanup.

ANTAGONIST ROLES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY.

You do not need an inherent advantage. You already had all the tools to succeed - If you want to go on a rampage, it should be padded by your proficiency in the game, not raw number buffs so you can be carried by passive stats. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is a mistake in general, but doing so for antagonists is just embarrassing.

In summary: A player issue, not a code. If people are bad at an antagonist, that does not mean the role is bad - SImply the players.

My point being really that changeling will not be good until people become good at playing changeling.

>antags are supposed to make the round engaging and fun
>antags should be not only able but very likely to die within the first five minutes of them attempting to do anything engaging

pick one

[Scones]

It's up to players to be engaging and fun. If you need to murderbone to be engaging and fun, may I suggest one of the many triple-A shooters currently available?

Antagonists set the tone and shape the spaces that the standard, average player must fill.

[bandit]

The biggest problem with ling right now is not how hard or how easy it is. It's design creep. Lings have so many things they can buy that it's overwhelming and de-focuses the antag. Most of these are not gated by anything. As a result the ling is kind of like a traitor, kind of like a sling, kind of like everything, a jack of all trades and master of none. And it makes the mode impossible to balance because you have to account for how 10000 abilities will interact. Restoring oldling will fix this somewhat, Goonling will fix this somewhat, an entirely new ling mode can fix this somewhat, but enough with this "let's add one more power to the ling and fix everything!!!" bullshit.

(Traitor has the same problem incidentally.)

[PKPenguin321]

It's up to players to be engaging and fun. If you need to murderbone to be engaging and fun, may I suggest one of the many triple-A shooters currently available?

Antagonists set the tone and shape the spaces that the standard, average player must fill.

when did i say murderbone

[CPTANT]

A ling with flat powers will always suck. Either it is too powerful and steamrolls everything or its too weak and gets dunked.

I already posted the answer:

1. Change changeling from a main antag to a side antag that has a chance of spawning in every gamemode.
2. Progression based antag. Absorbing people gives you more and stronger abillities.
3. Rebalance the ling abillities to this new situation. top tier powers should require a significant amount of absorbs but should be POWERFUL.

This also gives you the option as a game designer to play a bit with new abilities. Gate powerful stuff behind more absorbs. Introduce fancy shit such as acid spits, greater form, passives such as faster absorbing and perhaps even a form of parasting.

Make people work for their fancy shit.

[Zilenan91]

That's also literally datum antags, which is already being coded, and probably a year or two off at the most.

[oranges]

blame the security buff team

[Oldman Robustin]

These two posts are pretty much "rot of the game" tier ideologies that are in part responsible for the game being so unimaginably stale lately. You can lose as an antagonist? To people who are intended to be able to stop antagonists? What the fuck that's the most horrible thing I've ever heard, priority issue, 100% gamebreaking. I hate to have to evidently be the one to say it, but antagonist is not supposed to be easy.

Let me say it again, because this is a prevailing misconception that clearly needs some cleanup.

ANTAGONIST ROLES ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE EASY.

You do not need an inherent advantage. You already had all the tools to succeed - If you want to go on a rampage, it should be padded by your proficiency in the game, not raw number buffs so you can be carried by passive stats. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is a mistake in general, but doing so for antagonists is just embarrassing.

In summary: A player issue, not a code. If people are bad at an antagonist, that does not mean the role is bad - SImply the players.

My point being really that changeling will not be good until people become good at playing changeling.

Jesus christ this reeks of "I don't play this game but once in a blue moon but let me tell you what the SS13 ideal looks like".

The only cancer here is the person who thinks they have even the most tenuous grasp of balance and spouting design philosophy for this game that has been disproven over the course of thousands of games for many years now.

The playerbase takes about a month to plateau in a given role. About that time you start having more experienced players phase out, new players phase in, and the "old veterans" have optimized their playstyle and aren't going to see any significant improvements. That's it. Stop trying to push this "lets keep a shitty antag in a shitty spot for another year, because TWO FUCKING YEARS of newling wasn't enough to demonstrate that crippling an antag will put that antag into a fucking death spiral, not slowly correct itself as everyone on the server becomes fucking Zen Master Ling players who have transcended mere mortal limits in taking Ling play to another plane of existence. When you put an antag in a shit-state, veterans like me (and countless others, Spring 2015 you could scarcely find a robust player who hadn't disabled traitor and ling) will disable the role because it's just not fun to play a crippled antag who's outnumbered 10:1.

But even before you fired up that retard-tier trope, you threw out the other "is he actually serious?" argument of "there shouldn't be good antags, just shitty ones where expert players can use their skill to dominate even if they started the round with a valid stamp over their sprite and a rusty spoon as their only weapon".

You know what happens when player skill is the biggest determinant in your robustness? You get fucking extended you stupid piece of shit. Robustness isn't an antag-exclusive skill, valid hunters, security, and synthetics all have insane tools at their disposal to shit on your day. Antags absolutely require either number or "raw stats" to do their job. You get less numbers, you give them more power. Thats why we have a stupid piece of shit demigod (Wizard) while giving revs absolutely no special equipment. Lings are at roughly "nukeop tier" numbers. Whether its through stealth or raw strength, they need some potent fucking tools if they're going to have an impact on highpop rounds.

It's up to players to be engaging and fun. If you need to murderbone to be engaging and fun, may I suggest one of the many triple-A shooters currently available?

Antagonists set the tone and shape the spaces that the standard, average player must fill.

Ok I'm just getting meme'd on now aren't I? Are you really playing the fucking "MURDER IS BAD, AND YOURE BAD IF YOU ENJOY MURDERING" card?

Haven't we reached universal consensus with all possible timelines that THIS GAME CANNOT SUSTAIN ITSELF ON SHITTY ROLEPLAY AND ANTAGS WHO CAN'T SOW DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

You can shit on antags who murder, but this game was fucking built on PARANOIA. That was the single most descriptive word for SS13 in its early years. People weren't fucking PARANOID that the clown was going to steal their shoes, or that someone was going to read Toy Story erotica on radio, or that someone might call them a bad name on the radio. People were paranoid of one singular outcome, DEATH. DEATH could come in so many ways, with very few counters, that you would be on your toes at all times. Being ALONE would actually put you on edge instead of putting you to sleep. Being ALONE with one other person would raise your heart rate and make you physically anxious. You can meme all you want on murderboning but it just reinforces that you have no fucking idea of what makes this game special.

I could go on for pages about this, but let me sum it up as this:

Scones you have no fucking clue what you're talking about. We tried antags that catered to "elite" players like cult and 2013-2014 lings, which were so difficult to play that they just gave a middle finger to the "lowest common denominator". The community did not GIT GUD, the experts got sick of being aligned with complete retards who couldn't handle the complexity required to succeed in their role, and things didn't start to improve until coders put foam helmets and padded corners back into these antag types.

[DaemonBomb]

Fuck, if you want paranoia let's go back to pre-cloner, back when you had to have a geneticist who knew the monkey trick to come back to life.

[Scones]

sucks to suck etc.

sorry i got burnt out reading novels on tgstation13.org post-dezzmont

[PKPenguin321]

basically scones, what is being said is that you're actually genuinely defending pseudo-extended, which is the most boring round type of all
and you have no clue what you're talking about (and funnily enough you responded with a post saying you didn't even read what he said, which really only proved his point ayyy)
in other words scones you really have no clue what you're talking about, that or you somehow genuinely enjoy fingering your own anus in the brig as the HoS for an hour and a half every round because all the antags died

[Scones]

it's extremely subjective but i'm actually serious when i say it's rot of the game

[DrPillzRedux]

The problem with lings is that it's a slow, stealth oriented game mode where you're very heavily punished for being caught. The lings play slow and nothing interesting happens. People get dragged into maint and taken out of the round forever most of the time and that's not interesting at all. The lings can buy no weapons of mass destruction as well so that makes it even slower. All they get are powers meant to subdue a single person in a boring way or some armor and shield abilities.

They aren't fun to watch or play against.

You could remedy this by changing the playstyle but then it isn't ling.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

it's extremely subjective but i'm actually serious when i say it's rot of the game

The number of mainline security players is the rot of the game, because they sperg all over the forums when any threat they can't instagib with their validguns comes along, and get deadly and powerful antags removed in favor of an antag so weak that two years of solid buffing hasn't made it as good as it used to be.

[Malkevin]

Make Ling like MUSH

But Doris, I'm a mainline sec player and I've been saying buff ling for years.

[Steelpoint]

Hell I want Changeling buffed.

I recall when I started playing SS13 around 2010, and then again around late 2013 how jumpy and distrusting people were of ever wanting to be alone with anyone else. You had to earn someone's trust during a game.

That's no longer the case. While Oldling may have had many bad aspects, but I'll be damned to say that it did the whole 'paranoia' part right.

Our home page claims "Space Station 13 is a paranoia-laden roleplaying game set against the backdrop of a nonsensical, metal death trap masquerading as a space station", yet we are neither in a paranoia-laden game nor a metal death trap.

[leibniz]

I suggested once that we could make changeling a solo antag (like in ancient times).
Then we could experiment with a lot of stuff that is normally considered OP.
Also, we should revive the "internal hivemind" idea so people removed from the round can have some fun taunting the changeling in his head. (a lot of people like observing so I dont think it is outrageous to suggest that some would find this fun)

Part of the design problem is that some changelings farming people for DNA and extending the round years ago triggered people so hard that we really turned away from dangerous things, while extract dna sting was clever, it was really misguided to make it the focus of the mode.

[CPTANT]

Ok then until antag datums are ready:

1. remove ling gamemode, slightly reduce traitor odds and increase traitorling odds.
2. introduce progression ling.

[Saegrimr]

So what's the difference between being eaten by a changeling at roundstart, and being esworded and spaced at roundstart?

[Steelpoint]

There's more nuance to that. Older Changeling, and Goon Ling, revolve around attacking isolated targets. If you get caught out or are up against even more than one person your suddenly in a lot of trouble as you starting powers do not lend themselves to group combat.

Killing someone with a sword is a very loud and messy business, leaving a lot of blood and making a lot of noise that can attract unwanted attention.

[Tornadium]

Ling really doesn't do anything for round progression.

They're completely irrelevant most of the time, Hell half the time we have a pure ling round I see the same fucking people start to check AI core on the cameras to see if it's malf.

Even in Traitor-Ling rounds once the Traitors are gone it goes straight to extended. Most people get bored and start dicking around and fucking with security because literally nothing else is going on.

[Steelpoint]

Essentially Changelings need to be powerful enough in whatever capacity in order to carry the round by themselves.

Every other game mode can do that aside from Changeling.

I mean, the fact a Traitor+Changeling mode exists is damning proof of Changeling being so bad at carrying a round that it has to piggy back off of another round type.

[Tornadium]

Essentially Changelings need to be powerful enough in whatever capacity in order to carry the round by themselves.

Every other game mode can do that aside from Changeling.

I mean, the fact a Traitor+Changeling mode exists is damning proof of Changeling being so bad at carrying a round that it has to piggy back off of another round type.

Well the issue is that Changelings just aren't interesting.

Either they play super stealthy and don't do anything to impact the round at all, or they go loud and either go with the current OP fleshmend build and slaughter all of security if they have any kind of idea how a PC works or they don't and they die.

[Saegrimr]

What i'm trying to get at is what does Changeling do differently than a Traitor also trying to be stealthy?

Do you actually want Changeling to be different from traitor, or just a biological terror themed traitor?

The way a lot of things are "balanced" here, it seems everybody just wants everything to be traitor themed, and also want traitors to get old shit that was Ling specific like regenerative implants or something.

[bandit]

The core difference between ling and traitor, as I see it, should be impersonation. It's almost impossible to replace someone as traitor now without genetics fuckery no one ever does. You can kill, and that's it. Changeling is about killing someone and making no one even know that they're dead. To not be able to trust anyone you talk to to even be themselves. Et cetera.

Any changes to ling should make that more viable. Instead it's been gradually feature-creeped and drifted toward chem-pool slaughter antags and/or meme stings.

[Not-Dorsidarf]

The core difference between ling and traitor, as I see it, should be impersonation. It's almost impossible to replace someone as traitor now without genetics fuckery no one ever does. You can kill, and that's it. Changeling is about killing someone and making no one even know that they're dead. To not be able to trust anyone you talk to to even be themselves. Et cetera.

Any changes to ling should make that more viable. Instead it's been gradually feature-creeped and drifted toward chem-pool slaughter antags and/or meme stings.

Just give the ling the morph-style transform, except only for mobs.

[Wyzack]

There are really two opposing schools of thought in ss13 design and they really come out strong in this argument. Namely, "gameplay should be more lethal" vs "never ever remove people from the round". The latter is pretty shit to be honest, and is a major reason why there is no paranoia anymore

[bandit]

The latter, though, is way different now that it was a few years ago thanks to drones, posibrains, more side antags, golems, sentience potions....

[onleavedontatme]

What i'm trying to get at is what does Changeling do differently than a Traitor also trying to be stealthy?

Do you actually want Changeling to be different from traitor, or just a biological terror themed traitor?

The way a lot of things are "balanced" here, it seems everybody just wants everything to be traitor themed, and also want traitors to get old shit that was Ling specific like regenerative implants or something.

Thank you. Had been trying to think of a way to phrase this. Everything seems to be "balanced" around how many sec officers you can kill in an open battle/how many antagonists the officers can kill.

I don't know why the idea of an actually stealthy bad guy is intolerable to people.

[Steelpoint]

The problem with the 'stealthy bad guy' is that it is only enjoyable for a small group of people, namely the antagonist.

The objective of stealth is to avoid detection, and to evade pursuers if detected.

Now the problem is that in doing this we get a game mode that is boring to the majority of the server, as has been demonstrated for the two plus years of Newling we had.

There is no possible way for a pure stealth antagonist to drive the round by itself and bring it to a conclusion, hence why we eventually placed Changelings alongside Traitors and then just gutted the pure Changeling game mode, reserving Changeling's for Traitor+Ling, where in Traitor+Ling the Traitors could actually advance the round. Only problem being is that if all the Traitors are caught, which can occur due to their being less Traitors thus less chaos and proper antagonists, that the round enters extended.

Older Newling had no incentive to go loud, you just do your objective and keep quite. If you get seen just run away and change disguise.

Not very engaging.

[Cheimon]

I don't know that it is, necessarily. Abductors are stealthy, and so is the morph. They're both well received as far as I'm aware (well, people definitely tolerate them).

But an antagonist being stealthy for the whole round, if it's the only antagonist, can be a little dull. You know something's up, but you can't put your finger on it. If you're security, just patrolling isn't that fun (would you like to be a guard in Splinter Cell?). If you're working in a lab, well, you're stuck in a lab. Eventually someone decides "if the antagonists aren't doing much, I will" and you get extended, with people doing things like sabotaging station atmospheres, rioting, forming tribes and so on. That all can be fun (though it's highly dependent on the creativity of those doing it, which is why most people don't like extended) but for the most part it means the antagonists aren't actually entertaining anyone but themselves.

E: looks like steelpoint got there before me

[Steelpoint]

B-b-but Steelpoint! Antagonists should pull be pulling up their belt straps and should be very robust, and very combat capable, by themselves. They should not need fancy shamcy powers or abilties or progression!

Well sorry but your horrifyingly wrong. Every single antagonist in this game needs some edge in order to do well, even Revolutionary's get their edge by being able to convert crew member's to their side, and use numbers to overwhelm the loyalists.

Have you see what happens when a unarmed Assistant, or any other crew member, tries to attack a member of Security, or a robust member of the Command staff? Its very one sided UNLESS the attacker has a way to even the playing field.

Yes you can cheese it out with water and a spray, you can try your luck with a stun prod and cable cuffs, but at the end of the day the antagonist needs a clear and effective edge to give them some advantage.

Rev has numbers, they can overwhelm the loyalist with pure numbers. Nuke Ops have coordination, a clear objective and powerful weapons and equipment. Wizards simply have over powered abilities. Traitors have the elemet of surprise and a wide array of unique tools and weapons to do the job.

Newling had cyro sting and (eventually) a shitty variant of the Energy Sword.

----

Antagonists need a clear, unique, and effective edge to win.

The problem is that Changeling's edge came, not in combat or similar, but in being able to hide and evade. This creates the problem of Changelings being, hence the title, boring as hell.

What is the solution? Oldling, Goonline or some psudo-cross between the two? Whatever it is, anything is better than boring rounds with nothing going on, even having insane Changelings with 40000 chemicals and Death Squad tier armour.

(AFTER POST)
Caught Cheimon's post as I was typing.

Morph and Abductor get away with stealth due to them both having a clear and present effect on the round in a major way. The Morph can eat half the station if left out of control and the Abductors can spew Chaos quickly as their implants in Humans cause a wide array of destructive, or less so, side effects.

Ling simply has husked bodies turn up once in a while that get cloned, before being gunned down by a officer and burned to death. As well as any other round antagonist, ling or otherwise, being burned to death just to be sure.

[Saegrimr]

Eventually someone decides "if the antagonists aren't doing much, I will" and you get extended, with people doing things like sabotaging station atmospheres, rioting, forming tribes and so on.

These are the kind of people that need to go.