Plasmamen at Roundstart (MERGED!)

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:22 am

UPDATE 11/13/2015 - PLASMAMEN HAVE BEEN MERGED

Hello everyone! After more than a month of coding and testing and spriting, Plasmamen were merged and enabled on the live server. Unfortunately, there were some issues and rather large bugs, so they were disabled, taking the poor lizardpeople along with them. I sincerely apologize to any dedicated lizard players, you'll be getting your lizards back very soon. A hotfix should be live today that will fix the gamebreaking bugs, as well as address some balance concerns and put Plasmamen in their own config file (which will allow them to be disabled separately from lizards!I). I would very much like to post up sprites and whatnot, but at the moment I feel like it's more important to address some of the bugs and concerns that were brought up after they were first enabled, so I'll do that.

Current Issues and Bugs:

Plasmamen can spawn as Nuclear Operatives... without their suits - When Kor put up the PR making ERT/DS/Nuke teams human-only, we thought "Great, that'll apply to Plasmamen too!", however the PR was changed to exclude nuclear teams in the last iteration, and we forgot to make those default to humans if you have Plasmamen selected. We apologize to the Nuclear Commander who incinerated immediately on spawn.
The Plasma jumpsuit does not slow - This is due to simple miscommunication, after changing to jumpsuits from exosuits, my coder wasn't aware that they were supposed to slow as well. They will have be changed to have a non-stacking slow of 1 (like permanently wearing an EVA suit).
The Plasma helmet is not spaceworthy - While they were changed to not have roundstart space suits, Plasmamen helmets should retain their space-worthiness so that Plasmamen engineers can still do EVA work without bursting into flames. It also makes them easily identifiable in space.
Bug with helmets appearing invisible - This was probably the main reason they were disabled, as it appeared as though all of the Plasmamen suddenly no longer needed to be wearing a suit. As334 has already fixed this.
They share a config file with lizards - ...Sorry lizard players, they were supposed to be able to be disabled separately from lizardpeople, but that doesn't seem to be working, currently. Needless to say, that functionality will be added in the event that there are any issues in the future (but finger's crossed that there won't be!)
Igniting on Shadowling transformation? (Untested) Tested! - Amelius brought up that they might ignite themselves when they transform as a shadowling, which has not been tested yet. I'll ensure that it is tested and fixed if need be in this upcoming hotfix. They do indeed ignite themselves on sling transformation, and as such will either be blacklisted from becoming shadowlings or will have an alternative fix applied.
Igniting yourself to set others on fire is currently too robust - With the way that fire stacks are managed, taking off your helmet, running through a bunch of people and immediately extinguishing yourself via your suit is currently far more powerful than it should be. We will be scaling up the damage that Plasmamen take from being on fire as well as reducing the number of charges in their built-in extinguisher. Their self-ignition should be a fun mechanic, and purposefully igniting yourself should be suicide, and we will adjust as necessary until we get to that point.

I was considering making a separate feedback thread for them post-implementation, but since I am currently getting feedback over IRC, Github, and this thread, I feel as though it will be better to keep it consolidated. Please ensure that you read the relevant sections of the OP before posting about any concerns you may have, as I have addressed every concern that I have received so far. If you were part of the test last night, I hope you enjoyed them, and they should be up in a better state very soon!

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UPDATE 10/11/2015 - JUMPSUIT PLASMAMEN

Hey friends, so today I'm coming to you with a big, overdue update for this thread that will hopefully push them towards a state where we can start coding and get them in a PR in the near future. After talking in-depth with both #coderbus and receiving feedback from other players in-game, it has been decided that Plasmamen suits will be converted to full-body jumpsuits rather than occupying the exosuit slot. Now you might be thinking, "Sweaterkittens you handsome and talented stallion, what does this mean for me, the player/coder/admin/shitposter? Seems like a relatively minor change." The advantage of making the life-support suits jumpsuits as opposed to exosuits is that it will be much more conducive to them meshing with the way the game is setup - that is to say, things like having to code injection ports or being able to defib through them, etc etc. won't be an issue. For players, it should make them a little less clunky to play, and a little more intuitive, since you won't have to guess what will and won't work with their snowflake jumpsuit. Addtionally, it'll make this easier to code, without having to code such things like making pockets accessible and defibrillation work though the suit, that would be excessively "snowflake code" and would have a much lower chance of making it into the game in the first place. Overall, this should continue to keep the flavor and alternate gameplay experience that Plasmamen bring, while simultaneously simplifying the coding. I would like to note that our very own WJohnston has volunteered to sprite us a full-body jumpsuit sprite to go with the current helmet, should this make it to the coding stage!

If you're more a list-type person, here is the rundown on what is going to change: Plasmamen will now start with a Plasma Suit (jumpsuit) and Plasma Helmet, as well as an internals tank. The jumpsuit and helmet allow them to survive without bursting into flames, should both be worn, however they are not spaceworthy. The Plasma Helmet itself will remain spaceworthy (as it is currently, pre-changes), meaning that the Plasmamen does not have to take it off to go EVA, should they acquire the proper space suit. Plasmamen will be able to be injected, defibrillated, and have medical attention applied through the jumpsuit as is normal for other races. The slow-down that the Exosuit would have granted is now applied to the jumpsuit. This will keep them a bit slower as intended, since with jumpsuits they would move full-speed, which was unintended. Something to note is that this slowdown will NOT stack with an exosuit that applies slowdown, the game will simply take the higher of the two values, keeping them slower overall but not absurdly slow should they put on an exo. As I said before, they should still play just about the same, the only difference being that it will be easier to code and more intuitive to play. Plus WJ sprite!

Any info/fixes that are no longer applicable in the OP have been struck through or altered to reflect this change. If that is too distracting, let me know and I will move all the eliminated changes to a spoiler tag. Let me hear your comments, questions, concerns or support!

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Hello all!

Semi-recently, a few members of our community have tested the waters for adding Plasmamen at roundstart: the first being a thread by Lmwevil, the other being more recent PR by goof which simply allowed them to be selected during character creation. Both of these were met with a fair amount of resistance - most of which cited mechanical issues with the way Plasmamen work currently - as well some other OOC/non-gameplay related issues. My hope for this thread is that I'll be able to address these issues (as well as any other concerns) that players have about getting them enabled as a starting race! If you have any questions or concerns, check the thread first to see if it's been addressed, otherwise let me know!

Pre-Change Plasmamen: For those who are not familiar, or for a frame of reference, Plasmamen are a humanoid race that look like flaming, purple skellingtons. They are admin spawn only. They require a special exosuit to survive, as any contact with oxygen causes them to spontaneously combust. Additionally, they only breath plasma, and are given a special internals tank of it at roundstart. Currently, their "Plasma Suit" is equivalent to an EVA suit, provides 100 bio protection, and is space-worthy. It has a slow of 1 like other EVA suits. Their suit will auto-extinguish up to 9 times. They are also immune to radiation.

Plasmamen are a unique and flavorful race that are fun to play and open up a lot of potential for roleplay (as little as that may be here on /tg/). I have a coder lined up who is willing to make the changes necessary to make them mesh with /tg/, so any mechanical issues are merely hurdles and not walls!

Mechanical Issues

Roundstart Space-worthy suits: Despite Plasmamen being a nearly a direct downgrade of humans, some players were concerned about the fact that they effectively start with an EVA suit. To remedy this, the Plasma Suit will be non-spaceworthy at roundstart. Plasmamen in the Engineering department will start with a spaceworthy suit, as they require it for their job. All others will require a Plasma Suit EVA Kit, which can be researched in R&D at relatively low tech levels, and is applied in a similar manner to Goliath Plates - that is, simply use it on the armor to upgrade it. A related issue that was brought to my attention is the fact that it will be difficult to permabrig Plasmamen who have spaceworthy suits. That is simply a matter of closing the shutters on the individual cell, keeping them from the main perma area.
Pocket Access: On /tg/, pockets are inaccessible when most exosuits are being worn - which makes sense, thematically. However, this did bring up the unique problem of what security is to do if they need to search a Plasmaman. Either they take off the suit and he burns to death, or they potentially leave him with that dangerous EMAG in his pocket. In response to this, Plasma Suits will not restrict access to anything beneath them, in order for security to still be able to effectively search them - as well as thematically representing the fact that life-support suits intended to be worn constantly would have access to undergarments for ease of use purposes.
Eating and Medical attention: Plasmamen will not require food, so removing the suit to eat won't be an issue. They can still ingest and process food if they require nutriment, but they won't generate hunger like humans. As far as medical attention goes, patches can be applied like any exosuit, although things such as bruise/ointment packs will still be unable to be applied to a suited Plasmaman. The suits WILL have an injection port, allowing for syringes to be used on them.
Changeling Transformation sting: Due to the potential to instanteously turn people into flaming skeletons that are suffocating, the changeling transformation sting will be unusable when a Plasmaman's genome is selected. You will still be able to transform into them normally.

OOC/Non-Gameplay Concerns

The 'Snowflake' Issue: This is a bit hard to tackle, but I think it's important, as one thing that seems to be a common sentiment among /tg/ players is that we hate snowflakes. What exactly is a snowflake? Much like powergaming, the term is thrown around quite a lot. Generally, the worst examples are people that constantly demand attention, act overly aggressive, and use their race/backstory as an excuse for being a shitter. I suppose the best way to convince people that this isn't a race that will encourage people to be snowflakes is to look at the races that DO encourage that type of behavior. Catbeasts, for example. Tajarans are a race that is inarguably furry, as well as being as good as if not better than humans. Races like that attract players who have no interests aside from turning the round into a movie featuring them as the lead. To them, they are the protagonist (or antagonist) and if things are not revolving around them, if other players do not genuflect before them, they start acting out. On the other hand, a race like Plasmamen are arguably a direct downgrade from humans. They do not attract the furry crowd, and they don't attract the people that are looking for any leg-up they can use to enact their powergamey Mary-sue fantasies.
Cantina Station 13: One of the issues with new races is the possibility that they'll eventually outnumber humans, or lead to what Paradise Station has, where the crew looks like the Cantina scene from Star Wars - i.e., tons of different races and very few humans. To a lot of people this detracts from the experience, and I have to agree. However, once again this is due mostly to the fact that the non-human races on those sorts of servers are sidegrades or upgrades to humans, which gives very little incentive to NOT play them. Nanotrasen is a human-owned corporation, employs mostly humans (per our lore) and it just doesn't make a lot of sense in our server to have nonhumans in any sort of position of power. IC-wise, even if racism wasn't prolific, it's still unlikely that they would be placing, say, Lizard-people (who are lore-wise mainly used for manual labor) into a Captain or Head of Security position. Plasmamen are downgrades, and they will be restricted from head roles in much the same way that lizard-people currently are. I don't believe they'll be selected so often as to ever even coming CLOSE to outnumbering humans.
Griefing: Something brought to my attention recently was a player's concern that a Plasmaman could grief simply by taking off their suit and running into others while they're on fire, to ignite them as well. On the flip side, a few players were also concerned that they could be easily griefed by being slipped and having their suit removed while they were down. While this appears to be a mechanics issue at first glance, I believe it to be an OOC issue. In both instances, they should be treated the same way that doing the equivalent would be treated - that is to say, if you slipped someone, and set them on fire with CLF3/Phlog for no reason as a nonantag, that would be considered griefing and/or highly shitty behavior. If you set yourself alight and ran through the crowded escape wing, that would also be highly shitty behavior. It may be easier to perpetrate those particular situations as a Plasmaman, but that doesn't mean the consequences should be any different. I would like to clarify however, that they are nonhuman, and will be subject to the same reduced consideration (IC) that Lizard-people are given.

Summary of Plasmamen Post-fix:
Plasmamen will be a round-start race option, limited from Head, Security (for the time being) and Service roles aside from Janitor and Cook. They will start with a Plasma Suit (jumpsuit), Plasma Helmet, and an internals tank 3/4 filled, along with their job-related gear. It will take twice as long for others to remove the Plasma Suit (jumpsuit) and Helmet as it does to remove items normally. The jumpsuit + helmet will have Bio 100, keep them from bursting into flames in 'normal' atmospherics, but otherwise provide them with no protection. Additionally, the jumpsuit will start with 10 self-extinguishes and will have an inherent slowdown of 1, that does not stack with hardsuits or softsuits.
Plasmamen only breath plasma, any other gases are toxic. If their body comes into contact with oxygen, it will spontaneously ignite. They have radiation immunity and do not require eating.

New/Updated Items

Plasma Suit (jumpsuit): Non-spaceworthy, provides Bio 100 protection, has a non-stacking slow of 1, and is pressurized to keep Plasmamen from bursting into flames when in an area with oxygen. It takes twice as long to remove as most jumpsuits, and begins with 10 self-extinguisher charges.
Plasma Helmet:It will take twice as long to remove as other helmets, provides Bio protection in conjuction with the suit, but is otherwise the same as the Plasma Helmet currently in our code.
Plasma Suit + Plasma Helmet: Non-spaceworthy, provides 100 Bio, slowdown of 1. Had an Injection port and items under it are accessible while it is worn. Both the suit and the helmet take twice as long to remove as other suits do. It begins with 10 self-extinguisher charges.
Plasma Suit EVA Kit: Available from R&D at relatively low tech levels. When applied to a Plasma Suit, protects it's wearer from the temperature and pressure of deep space. It is a small item.
Plasma Suit Extinguisher Cartridge: Available from R&D at relatively low tech levels. When applied to a Plasma Suit (jumpsuit), set the number of self-extinguisher charges to 10. it is a small item.
Plasma Suit Crate: Can be ordered from Cargo, 20 points. Contains 2 Plasma Suits (jumpsuit), 2 Plasma Helmets, and 2 spare Plasma Internals.
Life Support Membrane: Semi-transparent undergarment to be worn underneath a Plasmasuit. Simply a thematic jumpsuit for Plasmamen.

Lore:

Spoiler:

Code Change Master List (for those who'd like to see all of the changes/additions that would be made)

Spoiler:

I'm looking forward to hearing everyone's comments, questions, and concerns! I'll do my best to address them and update the OP if necessary.

Update: 10/5/2015 - Added "change examining mobs to use appearance var instead of the embedded species image" - Suggested by Jordie
Update: 10/6/2015 - Changed "Add injection port to suit" to "Disable thickmaterial on suit to enable injections" and added "Stop cloned plasmamen from incinerating/suffocating until they are ejected from the clone pod" - Thanks for bringing that up Grazyn
Update: 10/9/2015 - Removed "Stop cloned plasmamen from incinerating/suffocating until they are ejected from the clone pod" from Code changes and added naming conventions to Lore.
Update: 10/11/2015 - BIG jumpsuit update! Plasmamen will now use a specialized jumpsuit as life support instead of an exosuit. Removed many entries from code-change and added a couple new entries. Struck through information that is no longer applicable.
Update: 10/14/2015 - Added "Make Plasmamen 'burn out' after being dead for a long period of time, so that they do not continue to burn"
Update: 10/15/2015 - Added "Add Plasmamen as a separate config file from Lizardpeople" - requested by Shadowlight, so that they can be disabled in case of an issue without having to recompile.
Update: 10/22/2015 - Added "When plasmamen are 'husked' via excessive burn damage or absorption, do not use the husked human sprite" and updated naming conventions.
Update: 11/13/2015 - MERGED update! Updated OP with a list of current issues being addressed.
Update: 11/19/2015 - Updated lore to include a formal name for Plasmamen, as well updating the "current issues" list in regards to Slings bursting into flames. Thank you to Amelius for initially bringing this issue to our attention.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:33 am #122999

Don't plasmamen always get set on fire even in a pure Plasma based enviroment? It seems the tolerances for if your on fire or not are very extreme but I digress.

So long as a Alien race has a clear disadvantage over a Human, then it won't become a majority played race. And with the proposals above (no space suit, slow down, etc) it should be balanced.

So long as I can fully search a Plasma Man I would be content.

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If you want to look for Plasmamen customization, akin to Human but not as stupid as Lizards, look to allowing people to add different colour schemes (to a minor extent) on their space suit. The primary colour should remain as Orange tho.

EDIT
Also keep Plasmamen as actual Aliens, not some shitty story where somehow plasma exposure turns you into a plasma man. That's stupid.

Shadowlight213 · Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:40 am

Plasmamen feel like they would a be grief race, as you can just take off your helmet and light people on fire. There would need to be plasmamen bans put in.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:46 am

@Steelpoint: They do not ignite in a pure plasma environment. The tolerances are indeed low. After these changes you should be able to fully search them. As far as the lore goes, I've heard people wanting it both ways (as Aliens or Plasma-exposed humans), I personally prefer the former, but I left their lore intentionally vague so as to make everyone happy. For their suits, I'm planning on porting the sprites from /vg//paracode for job-specific plasma suits in the future, if this gets merged.

@palpatine213: That is a concern I've heard before, and as I addressed in the OOC portion, under griefing, plasmamen who do that should be treated the same as any other nonantag setting themselves alight and running through a crowd. Additionally, my understanding is that the stacks applied to others vs. yourself is pretty minimal, so you will burn to death MUCH faster than you'll hurt anyone else. They offer a lot more to the game flavor-wise than just being a 'grief race'. It's also one of the reasons I've proposed them as being restricted from common griefy roles like clown and mime.

Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:19 am

I really dislike the amount of special snowflake codechecks and changes that this is quickly adding up to mostly related to the suit they wear like slower removal and special pocket access. This makes changing anything a nightmare frankly, not to mention just bloating the shit out of everything for a silly gimmick.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:30 am

@Misterperson: I did my best to keep the coding as simple as possible, and have as few things be snowflake code as possible. It shouldn't make anything too nightmarish to change. Also, I've been very thorough about documenting what changes will need to be made, so while you note that this is "quickly adding up", there should be no more changes than the ones I've listed. As I said, I already have a coder on deck who's willing to make the changes, so it's highly unlikely you'd ever have to dive into the code personally, although I understand the importance of keeping things neat for the future. If you have any suggestions on ways it could be coded to further simplify, I would be glad to hear them! We could also make the code less snowflake and more general by allowing the pocket access to be applied to other exos that you could access the pockets through, and the slower removal could also apply to certain hardsuits, or the currently broken Tc-bough Blood-red suit, which isn't supposed to be removable from the outside.

I'd also like to point out that this isn't intended to be a silly gimmick. It's supposed to be an interesting and fun roundstart race. I'd very much like to avoid this going the way of the lizard and having it be one big joke for 99% of the people who play them.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:38 am #123007

You spoke to me on IRC about this before, since I had discussed about enabling all races on my server as part of an experiment.

The problem with plasmen on /tg/ and my server is the playerbase difference.
Whilst my playerbase has the most powergaming, /pol/ tier, minimal rule shitters, it doesn't have /tg/'s playerbase of ban/kill baiting, grudging, 40 assistants who'll most likely use plasmen powers to ruin everything.

If you don't want it to feel a joke, add more. Although tis has the disadvantage someone is gonna call your server citadel 2.0.

I gave you my concerns that plasmen on /tg/ wouldn't work because of coderbus sanctions. As much as I'd love to port my features over, it's a common fact that the code base and the server are seperate. You're probably going to want to whitelist the race.

And speaking of powergame races, let's nerf them to make playing humans better.

I.e: lizards don't regain heat naturally, flypeople have to eat vomit and vomit when they eat, skeletons take double brute, zombies take double burn, grays get hurt by water. Shadowpeople, slime/goo people, Podmen are all the same.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:50 am

@J_Madison: I don't mean to be rude, but I honestly have no idea what you're trying to tell me. Plasmamen do not have "powers to ruin everything". They have a severe disadvantage and die easily. /Tg/ gets wild, but it is not Hippie. People here get bwoinked when they set a roomful of people on fire as nonantags. Not to mention that'll quickly kill you faster than it hurts anyone else.

As far as adding more, MrPerson addressed why that's an issue already. The few code changes that need to be made to facilitate them on /tg/ is plenty already, they don't need more. They don't need to be overdesigned. They're already fun to play in their current state, when you get a based admin that'll make you one. If anyone calls /tg/ Citadel 2.0 unironically, they've either never played on here, never on Citadel, or possibly both.

Plasmamen are currently already coded on /tg/. They don't need to be ported from anywhere, they only need some minor tweaks to mesh with the way the game is played here. Whitelists are extra work for both the coders and the administration, and there's no reason to enact some over-complicated system. As I said before, Plasmamen are already fun. The changes I have in mind will just make them a tad more balanced and fit them in as a roundstart race. We could even cut out some of the Quality of Life additions like Extinguisher Cartridges and whatnot, and they'd still be fun to play. We don't need to make this harder just for the sake of it.

Honest to god I don't know what you're talking about with powergame races or how it has anything to do with adding Plasmamen. It's been established that Plasmamen are arguably a direct downgrade from humans and that's it. They're here for fun and flavor, as well being one of the few very original things to come out of ss13.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:46 am #123011

Oh god, race bans would be hilarious. Do the furry servers have this?

Imagine banning someone from everything except cat people as punishment for being an asshole.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:52 am #123012

The only correct ban race are fly people, fly people that randomly have two limbs (possibly including your head) missing at round start, cannot communicate well at all, with the chance your mouth simply falling off to be replaced with a small tube, move slowly and will slowly have their skins slough off as the game progresses. You also have a life expectancy of 30 seconds to 30 minutes.

Also you start in Maintenance with no ID card and are free game for anyone to kill or capture.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 10:57 am #123013

I suggest implementing race bans, especially if people start taking plasmen/skellington/zombie for free space worthiness to griff.

We enabled Skellingtons and skellington transformation process.

CMOs, HOPs, HOSs rushed MedBay at roundstart, turned themselves into a skeleton and then fucked off with their no need for oxygen, spaceworthy, fireresistant, no bleed, radiation immune bodies.

We then nerfed skellingtons to no longer have fire resist. People powergamed Podmen at roundstart and put torches on their pockets because it's free regeneration until we nerfed that.

Point being, if you just add plasmen, they're going to abuse it's free space-bio-firesuit.

Be prepared to nerf, add and change it a lot.

Saegrimr wrote:Oh god, race bans would be hilarious. Do the furry servers have this?

Imagine banning someone from everything except cat people as punishment for being an asshole.

That's called starting the round as Mr Meeseeks without a task. At stage 3 it's literally worse than cluwne.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:11 am

J_Madison wrote:I suggest implementing race bans, especially if people start taking plasmen/skellington/zombie for free space worthiness to griff.

Okay, clearly you didn't even read the OP. They will not start with space-worthy suits. It's literally the first mechanical issue I address. Please read the post before you keep posting about how terrible an idea this is and how it's not going to work, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

Also, this has nothing to do with skeletons or zombies. This thread is about Plasmamen, please stop bringing other, non-related races into this because it serves no purpose other than to complicate things.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:46 am #123018

oh man more snowflake races that are impossible to disguise as just what we need!!!!!

Post by **oranges** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:18 pm #123022

I think a few more asymmetrical options at roundstart will make for a more interesting and strategically involved metagame which is somewhat bland at the moment since every single race has the same counter options.

snooze

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:27 pm

Miauw wrote:oh man more snowflake races that are impossible to disguise as just what we need!!!!!

Except that they're arguably easier than humans to disguise as, since their suit completely obscures your face (and body) and no one will ever in their right mind ask you to take it off. So disguising as a Plasmaman is totally doable and quite effective!

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:43 pm #123032

Sweaterkittens wrote:
J_Madison wrote:I suggest implementing race bans, especially if people start taking plasmen/skellington/zombie for free space worthiness to griff.
Okay, clearly you didn't even read the OP. They will not start with space-worthy suits. It's literally the first mechanical issue I address. Please read the post before you keep posting about how terrible an idea this is and how it's not going to work, and that's all I'm going to say about it.

Also, this has nothing to do with skeletons or zombies. This thread is about Plasmamen, please stop bringing other, non-related races into this because it serves no purpose other than to complicate things.

Okay, so they're starting off with Biofiresuits (toxins fire suit)?

I'm comparing it to other races that exist in the game and how it could disrupt or change the meta-game.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:51 pm

@J_madison: They are not Fire suits, they simply have a self-extinguisher built in, with limited charges. The only 'defensive' stats the suit has is Bio 100. Their suits are not intended to grant them any particular bonuses aside from keeping them from bursting into flames. And while comparing them to other races is good, on /tg/ we only have humans. And lizards, that function like humans. Skeletons and Zombies are adminspawn/magic mirror only and are not balanced, so comparing something that is intended to be a roundstart race against them isn't a fair comparison.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 12:58 pm #123037

I think disguising as a Plasma Man would be easier to pull off, just put on their suit and bam. In fact it would be far easier to pull of a disguise as a Plasma Man than a Human.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:06 pm #123041

if we were to add more races have only one such race availible each round plasmamen one round lizards the next.

Although i would rather going back to humans only multiple races just dont suit this server.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 1:50 pm #123053

A full search includes looking at their mask, glasses, and headset, since all of these can be related to syndicate activity.

It ought to be possible to remove these as well, not just items in pockets.

Equally, if the plasmaman suit totally obscures the face that's pretty powerful from the point of view of ID swapping.

Sweaterkittens · Sun Oct 04, 2015 2:00 pm

Cheimon wrote:A full search includes looking at their mask, glasses, and headset, since all of these can be related to syndicate activity.

It ought to be possible to remove these as well, not just items in pockets.

I apologize, I was so focused on addressing pockets that I didn't make it clear that all items beneath the Plasma Suit will be accessible. The does include mask/ear/etc. slots as well.

As far as obscuring the face - that is something I'll tackle when I'm a bit less sleep-deprived. However, I don't think it will be too big an issue, as the most you could do is disguise yourself as another plasmaman, of which there will be few. And any intelligent security will catch you and search you all the same. This also may be remedied by having job specific suits in the future.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Oct 04, 2015 9:22 pm

Just FYI shift clicking always shows race and gender regardless of how obscured you are.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:54 pm #123180

Won't checking the mask of a plasma man make them unable to breath until sec puts it back on?

Sweaterkittens · Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:28 am

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Just FYI shift clicking always shows race and gender regardless of how obscured you are.

Oh, I didn't realize that. I don't personally think that will be too bad, although frankly if we eliminated seeing race on fully-obscured crewmembers, it may eliminate some gripe people had with Lizards as well. I would definitely like to hear people's thoughts on that.

Zilenan91 wrote:Won't checking the mask of a plasma man make them unable to breath until sec puts it back on?

When you drag their sprite onto yours, you can see what they have in each slot, aside from pockets, where it merely says "empty pockets". So you wouldn't have to take their mask off to see that it's, say, a swat mask.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 3:25 am #123229

Well, not until chameleon voice changers become a thing.

Glad to see everything's accessible, anyway. Taking a mask off as security would cause temporary suffocation, but I assume it wouldn't set them alight. Temporary strangling doesn't hurt for long and it's entirely possible to set up internals on the person you've got cuffed if you want to. What I expect will be much more likely is security officers accidentally removing plasmamen's plasma tanks, which they're using to breathe, because it's in a pocket and is therefore unidentifiable.

Sweaterkittens · Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:03 am

Cheimon wrote:Well, not until chameleon voice changers become a thing.

Glad to see everything's accessible, anyway. Taking a mask off as security would cause temporary suffocation, but I assume it wouldn't set them alight. Temporary strangling doesn't hurt for long and it's entirely possible to set up internals on the person you've got cuffed if you want to. What I expect will be much more likely is security officers accidentally removing plasmamen's plasma tanks, which they're using to breathe, because it's in a pocket and is therefore unidentifiable.

The plasma tanks are larger than spare internal tanks, about the size of the big O2 tanks you can get in EVA/Atmos/Engineering etc. IIRC, they fit in Exosuit storage, on your back, and possible on your belt. So luckily it shouldn't be an issue with security officers removing them accidentally unless they don't understand what plasmamen are, in which case the whole suit will probably get stripped by mistake.

EDIT: And no, taking your internals off doesn't set you alight. It's only if your body contacts O2 because you don't have your suit on. So they could take their mask off/have it stripped and be okay for a brief period.

DNS · Post by **DNS** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:06 am #123237

I like the idea, the effort put forth into the thread, and the clarity of purpose that the idea is presented with. I can get behind it. Plenty of balancing mechanics to sort out both being a thing made out of plasma, to not being superior to humans from a gameplay perspective. The whole "snowflake snowflake no snowflakes ;[" just really isn't even a valid complaint against this from a normal player standpoint. From a coders stand point, I could yield on that. Also it'd be neat to see interactions between lizards, humans, and plasmen.

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:30 am

or just dont add any of that because lizards are more than enough

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:38 am #123248

This super-hyper "Absolutely no xenos ever" stance has always confused me. You guys don't seem /tg/ enough for this to be a part of the 40k maymays, or a part of the HFY stuf, and there isn't enough roleplay for special snowflake characters to ever be a problem. I see nothin' wrong with letting a couple of people be the weird thing.

Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:48 am

DaemonBomb wrote:This super-hyper "Absolutely no xenos ever" stance has always confused me. You guys don't seem /tg/ enough for this to be a part of the 40k maymays, or a part of the HFY stuf, and there isn't enough roleplay for special snowflake characters to ever be a problem. I see nothin' wrong with letting a couple of people be the weird thing.

really it comes down to the massive amounts of bugs they introduce and the difficulty when it comes to disguising as someone of an opposing race
that and the player segregation it creates is really annoying at times

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:53 am #123252

/tg/station is distractingly nowhere near related to /tg/.

Sweaterkittens · Mon Oct 05, 2015 5:06 am

Thanks for the support DNS and Daemonbomb!

@Violaceus: Please be constructive if you have something to say, your condescending sarcasm doesn't provide anything to the thread. As I've already stated, Plasmamen are wildly different from Tajarans, and I don't need to repeat myself on why. Saying "Adding these is tantamount to adding all of these other shitty races" is both a Slippery Slope and a Strawman, because that's not what I'm suggesting, and I've made it wildly clear that I don't want that as much as you do.

For the sake of argument, I'm going to do something I probably shouldn't and actually entertain for a moment that you were being serious in comparing your joke rock race to Plasmamen, because you seem to think that they're equivalent. You state that Plasmamen, Walking Skeletons, Lizardpeople etc. are unoriginal, and clearly go out of your way to create something so farfetched and crazy simply for the sake of doing so. What you're talking about is classic "overdesigning", which is a flaw in many of the servers that let you play an entire zoo of different races. Races that are overdesigned have differences that are different simply for the sake of being different, that don't offer any unique aspect to the meta or gameplay. Why do they have hands of glass? Why do they have wheels that make them roll in a circle? Simply because "HEY LOOK DIFFERENT". Plasmamen, on the other hand, are made to be relatively simple. They're main difference is coming from a different atmosphere, and requiring suitable internals to meet that requirement - other than that, they play very similar to humans, but with an enjoyable twist.

Adding everything that anyone comes up with to the server creates bloat - which is why I've spent weeks trimming this down and making it as simple and enjoyable as possible. Clearly you were being sarcastic, but you seem to think I actually feel that way, so I made the mistake of engaging you. If you have anything else to say, please ensure that it's constructive.

@PKPenguin321: I'm going to ensure that any bugs created or that come to light because of this get handled. A new race/feature/gamemode isn't fun to play if it's riddled with bugs like it went through Bethesda QA. As far as the difficulty of disguising goes, we've covered that it's /quite/ easy to actually cover your face, the only challenge is the fact that race shows on examine, regardless of how covered up you are. It seems to be a common opinion that it's irritating to disguise as other races, so under Jordie's suggestion, I'm adding "Examining mobs using appearance var instead of the embedded species image" to the docket, as that will allow people to disguise as other races without being outted by examine for no reason. Additionally, this will mesh with the other examine mechanics in the game, which show a picture of whatever object you're examining.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:28 am #123261

This seems like a horrifically bad idea.

Sweaterkittens · Mon Oct 05, 2015 7:56 am

ThanatosRa wrote:This seems like a horrifically bad idea.

Thanatos, as I mentioned in the OP, I'd really like to hear your reasoning, so that if there are problems, they can be addressed. Telling me that you think it's a bad idea doesn't tell me why you think it's a bad idea, which in turn doesn't give me anything constructive to work it, that I can provide feedback/changes to. I'd really like to hear about any questions or concerns you may have.

Montyblancs · Post by **Montyblancs** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 1:56 pm #123309

How would cloning them work? Defibs/patches got that big nerf a while back, so cloning is back to being the go-to for most deaths. With plasmamen what would happen is that they get cloned, pop out, and then just burn to death again, because there's no suit.

Another minor point, how long would they be ablaze for after death from exposure? People always seem to run over burning bodies because reasons, and it of course causes a clusterfuck.

I'm all for new races with distinct disadvantages to discourage large amounts of people playing them, but still having them as an option because it's interesting to see their mechanics intermingle with the various amounts of shit that occurs in the game.

Sweaterkittens · Mon Oct 05, 2015 4:46 pm

Montyblancs wrote:How would cloning them work? Defibs/patches got that big nerf a while back, so cloning is back to being the go-to for most deaths. With plasmamen what would happen is that they get cloned, pop out, and then just burn to death again, because there's no suit.

Another minor point, how long would they be ablaze for after death from exposure? People always seem to run over burning bodies because reasons, and it of course causes a clusterfuck.

I'm all for new races with distinct disadvantages to discourage large amounts of people playing them, but still having them as an option because it's interesting to see their mechanics intermingle with the various amounts of shit that occurs in the game.

Monty, cloning them is quite difficult as they will burst into flame and begin to suffocate upon being ejected. It requires someone there to immediately suit+internals them. This process is obviously much easier when the cloners are upgraded. That being said, it's not easy to clone them, and it's very likely that if you die as a Plasmaman and can't be defibrillated, it's going to be a more permanent death than usual.

Currently they continue to burn until they are placed in a suit again. Remember though, that would only be the case if they died because of removing their suit or if it was removed after death. That is a good point about people tending to run over bodies, it could certainly cause an issue. If other feel the same I'll see about having something implemented where they "burn out" after being dead for a bit.

Thanks for voicing your concerns, and for the support!

TheNightingale · Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:01 pm

Rather than having Engineering plasmamen start with a special suit, why not just add EVA kits to Engineering storage? Expanding on that:

A specialised EVA kit for Engineering, which - when applied to a plasma suit - makes it spaceworthy, and gives it protection against radiation and welding, like a standard Engineering RIG.
A similar kit for Mining, which makes it spaceworthy and adds armour against brute attacks, like a Mining hardsuit. (These start in the asteroid EVA room.)
A standard EVA kit from R&D, which only makes it spaceworthy.

Through right-clicking the plasma suit (or using the Object tab), you can take off an EVA kit to swap it for another. (Maybe there could be other modules too; one that supplies its own plasma, for example?)

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 6:21 pm #123362

What if instead of exosuits, they're pressurized undersuits?
It would make sense to have the exposed pockets, belt, ID and all that mess.
It's enough to maintain the required atmosphere and seal the plasma in, but in a zero-pressure environment there would obviously be problems with the pressure difference. This way they would have to go get their own EVA/Hardsuits for spess adventure like everyone else.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 8:16 pm #123393

Sweaterkittens wrote:
Montyblancs wrote:How would cloning them work? Defibs/patches got that big nerf a while back, so cloning is back to being the go-to for most deaths. With plasmamen what would happen is that they get cloned, pop out, and then just burn to death again, because there's no suit.

Another minor point, how long would they be ablaze for after death from exposure? People always seem to run over burning bodies because reasons, and it of course causes a clusterfuck.

I'm all for new races with distinct disadvantages to discourage large amounts of people playing them, but still having them as an option because it's interesting to see their mechanics intermingle with the various amounts of shit that occurs in the game.
Monty, cloning them is quite difficult as they will burst into flame and begin to suffocate upon being ejected. It requires someone there to immediately suit+internals them. This process is obviously much easier when the cloners are upgraded. That being said, it's not easy to clone them, and it's very likely that if you die as a Plasmaman and can't be defibrillated, it's going to be a more permanent death than usual.

Currently they continue to burn until they are placed in a suit again. Remember though, that would only be the case if they died because of removing their suit or if it was removed after death. That is a good point about people tending to run over bodies, it could certainly cause an issue. If other feel the same I'll see about having something implemented where they "burn out" after being dead for a bit.

Thanks for voicing your concerns, and for the support!

To clarify this, you can't be cloned at all. You will catch fire and die inside the pod as soon as you start cloning, unless the cloning pod is in a 100% plasma environment. Also you can't use cryo if you're one of the space worthy plasmen, and can't be defibbed (chest is covered by the suit). Also no blood (skelly) so no potato cloning either.

TheNightingale · Mon Oct 05, 2015 9:56 pm

Could you be cloned, catch fire, succumb, be put out, then be defibrillated and ingest burn patches really quickly, whilst having someone put a suit onto your in-crit body?
... hypothetically

Edit: If you die whilst burning, and someone extinguishes you, will you be set alight again?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 10:11 pm #123421

we have had this discussion before, answer is still no.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:31 pm #123445

Why don't we just make their anti-fire things go in the jumpsuit slot and make it impossible for them to wear exosuits. It'll remove the shittiness of never being able to get back into the round due to them being able to be defibbed.

Grazyn · Post by **Grazyn** » Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:35 pm #123448

TheNightingale wrote:Could you be cloned, catch fire, succumb, be put out, then be defibrillated and ingest burn patches really quickly, whilst having someone put a suit onto your in-crit body?
... hypothetically

Edit: If you die whilst burning, and someone extinguishes you, will you be set alight again?

you would still have tons of clone damage since you start burning as soon as cloning process starts. The corpse is indeed set alight again after you extinguish it.
So to be cloned you need to succumb in the pod, have one guy constantly exinguish you while another guy defibs, and someone ready to put on the suit. With the suit on, you need someone to feed you a cryo pill (cryoxadone+freezing pill) to heal the clone damage and get you out of permacrit.

TheNightingale · Mon Oct 05, 2015 11:41 pm

Alright, let's try this... you have a dead plasma-man. Inject the body with omnizine (for later) and apply brute and burn patches (to remove existing damage), then drag it into space (suit and all). Strip the suit, defibrillate before the pressure damage kicks in, re-equip the suit whilst the brute/burn and omnizine counteract the space damage, drag them back inside and prepare internals.

Alternatively, substitute space for a fire extinguisher, or just do it inside and put up with the (minimal) fire damage.
Medicine 101 - Plasmamen

ShadowDimentio · Tue Oct 06, 2015 12:59 am

I have no objections to roundstart hellingtons.

Sweaterkittens · Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:42 am

Hoo boy lots of responses since I went to sleep! Let me to try to address everything!

TheNightingale wrote:Rather than having Engineering plasmamen start with a special suit, why not just add EVA kits to Engineering storage? Snip.

Let me just say that I really like the idea of different kits. Most other stations have different suits based on the job, that provide the bonuses, but this might be an easier way to go about that. It would certainly give the feel of the suit as a life-support rig, with modules you could add and remove to potentially have a much more secure/safe environment on long rounds if R&D does their job. Just to keep things simple and push for them to get added without adding more coding projects right off the bat, I've held off on that for now, but I will definitely explore that more if they're added!

Just to clarify, Plasmamen are radiation immune, so they don't need rad protection, and their suits have always protected you from welding!

Saegrimr wrote:What if instead of exosuits, they're pressurized undersuits?

Thanks for bringing this up Saegrimr. This is something that I'd kicked around a little, and Baw suggested in deadchat one day. I like the idea, as it would be more intuitive. One issue I ran into when exploring that possibility were: that jumpsuits don't cover you entirely, so it would require new full-body jumpsuit sprites/a resprite of their suit to make it smaller, so that exosuits could fit over it without some crazy overlap. The Plasma Helmet would have to be spaceworthy as well, since you wouldn't be able to put the helmet on the hardsuit/softsuit up, which would be strange since the undersuit would not be. Despite this, this may be a good way to avoid some of the "snowflake code" that would go into making the suit function properly. The spriting would be a challenge (especially for job-related suits, which there are already exosuit versions of) but it would mean that there would be no need to add EVA kits or anything like that. I'll talk around on #coderbus a little to see how it would compare to doing the tweaks on the exosuits.

@The Cloning Discussion: I was told by a coder that they didn't alight while in the tubes, and they could be cloned. I'm sorry for anyone I have misled. I'll propose that they don't ignite until they're outside of the cloning pod, that way it will be /difficult/ to clone them, as I said, but isn't impossible. I'll see what I can do about getting defibs to work thorugh their suit as well, since life-support suits would have that capacity thematically, as well as the fact that defibrillating is impossible if they just burst into flames when you remove the suit. This will keep things relatively simple, they'll still be harder to revive than normal patients, but not impossible.

@CPTANT: I don't know how many times I have to ask, but please keep the discussion productive. If you have concerns or questions, please voice them. The reason this was shot down before was because there were NUMEROUS mechanical and balance issues, and those have been addressed.

@Zilenan91: As I said above, life-support in the jumpsuit slot has been suggested quite a few times, and I'm hearing that people would really like that. I'm going to talk around on coderbus a bit more, and see how I could implement something like this.

If anyone else likes the idea of life-support in the jumpsuit slot, let me know! So far there's been a lot of people who like that idea, I'd like to hear if others who haven't spoken up feel the same.

I hope I've hit everything that has been brought up, I appreciate the continued support and the healthy discussion!
*EDIT* Forgot to respond to Zilenan!

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:52 am #123491

I just don't like the idea of more round start races based on the amount of lizard drama alone, and I feel I am not alone in this. Logic it all you like, but lots of people are just going to straight up not like this idea and I don't think you will be able to sway them

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:17 am #123494

Sweaterkittens wrote:
ThanatosRa wrote:This seems like a horrifically bad idea.
Thanatos, as I mentioned in the OP, I'd really like to hear your reasoning, so that if there are problems, they can be addressed. Telling me that you think it's a bad idea doesn't tell me why you think it's a bad idea, which in turn doesn't give me anything constructive to work it, that I can provide feedback/changes to. I'd really like to hear about any questions or concerns you may have.

Yea, I disregarded that entirely.

But fine. I'll give you my small, but poignant reason. This community can't handle it. It'll be abused, or the subject of griff. Plain and simply. I don't trust these fucks with it.

Deitus · Post by **Deitus** » Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:39 am #123500

i would be for adding plasmamen, but agree in that it would require a lot of nerfs/has the potential for a lot of griffing on both sides on both an ic and ooc standpoint. regardless, i would advocate the addition and playtest them so i can whine about getting shit on ic try out a new perspective

Sweaterkittens · Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:59 am

ThanatosRa wrote:Yea, I disregarded that entirely.

I'm going to be blunt. Don't post in the thread if you're to even going to take the time to read the issues that were addressed, including the one you brought up, which has been addressed several times.

Wyzack wrote:I just don't like the idea of more round start races based on the amount of lizard drama alone, and I feel I am not alone in this. Logic it all you like, but lots of people are just going to straight up not like this idea and I don't think you will be able to sway them

And that's a reasonable concern. Frankly, this whole thing has gotten me very frustrated about Lizards, as they have seemingly brought a lot of drama and concern for non-humans with very little actual variance, variety and roleplay. While I've addressed this previously, I will say again that Plasmamen are functionally very different from Lizards, and I'm certain that they will attract a different group of players. Lizards have no disadvantage (aside from no head roles/being nonhuman) so there's no reason NOT to play them just to fool around and start fights. Additionally, as something one might consider a "furry" race, they attract that crowd, and a lot of the weird shit that's associated with it. On the other hand, Plasmamen have some distinct disadvantages that make them harder to play and more likely to die, which means there won't be a ton of people playing them (once the initial rush dies down). They also aren't even remotely furry, and they won't attract the same amount of drama that Lizard Erp has. Plasmamen have the added bonus of not being allowed to ERP without literally bursting into flames, no admin intervention required!

Deitus wrote:i would be for adding plasmamen, but agree in that it would require a lot of nerfs/has the potential for a lot of griffing on both sides on both an ic and ooc standpoint. regardless, i would advocate the addition and playtest them so i can whine about getting shit on ic try out a new perspective

Glad to hear your support! I've done my best to respond to player's concerns about potential griefing, as well as give them very distinct disadvantages. If you have any particular concerns about griefing, please voice them, I'd be happy to address them.