Armory re-mapping and autorifle removal

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 5:48 am #123862

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12202

The pull request wrote: I've been holding off on making this pull request for quite a while now. I played a lot of sec after autorifles were introduced, and I've had opportunity to observe a lot of rounds and play in even more, and I think autorifles should go.

Autorifles completely trivialize combat for the wielder. If Security has them, they can easily eliminate almost any threat by using a riot shield and autorifle, and there's no shortage of ammunition for them to use. If an antagonist has them, Security fall like dominoes because no matter how many lasers they use, the autorifles are still ridiculously powerful and trump them anyway.

Autorifles are still available in the code. They are not, however, found on the map at roundstart. Currently, the change only affects Box, as I don't know if the other maps have been changed to have the autorifles yet.

Screenshot of the new armory:

Note that the mechanical toolbox is actually a drone toolbox - this is so that Security gets all the tools. Also, there is an anchored ammunition locker full of beanbag shells to the right of the rack with implants.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:06 am #123867

You do know I'm removing the excess magazines in my map PR right?

I mean, technically at that point the Auto Rifles are very on par with Lasers for the most part, in fact without the excess magazines the Lasers will have the ammo advantage.

Also I would ask you elaborate on how Auto rifles trivialize security in fighting people, a riot shield and a gun, laser or rifle, will do well.

Edit: How exactly? They deal the same damage as Lasers, they have the same rate of fire as Lasers. The main difference is that Rifles have 20 rounds versus the Lasers 12, but the Laser can be recharged infinently.

onleavedontatme · Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:27 am

Right now the rifles have an effective capacity of 60 each because of the spare magazines (pretending we're only taking from a single rack). 60 is roughly the number of shots you'd get from every single energy weapon in the armory.

And you added 5 such rifles each with as much firepower as the entire armory had previously. You can just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot.

I know you're removing spare magazines now but I'm not sure what role they'd be filling without spare ammo. What do they bring to the table other than their mass amounts of ammo? What niche are they supposed to fill?

If I was gonna do my own version of the map change it'd probably be with less rifles, some spare magazines, and have them only fit on back like the ion. True heavy weapons instead of competing in the same role as a laser gun.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:32 am #123872

Again.

The Rifles, if supported by a competent Warden and HoS, can hold more ammo in the field but also do somewhat well in crowd control and in fighting certain antags, mainly Ops and Cult.

This incentivises head's of sec to go to cargo and order more ammo, as well as other supplies.

Team work is OP.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:39 am #123876

Can't you still print out boxes of ammo at cargo anyway, or magazines from science? If you want to limit good guns to being behind science, we literally already had that in the form of the SABR

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:42 am #123877

By the same logic you could say "no rifles in armoury, and incentivised going to cargo and order the guns in the first place".

Even without all the extra spare mags (which makes them fucking dumb by the way), you can just empty the mags out of all the guns, and you're back to BULLET FARMER ATATATATA.

Edit: And the sabr STILL has 42 rounds per mag, jesus fuck maintainers why is that not fixed? It never should have changed from 20.
Also you made have incindiary mags instead of incendiary mags.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:42 am #123878

What's the difference between taking three Laser guns versus taking One Rifle and several extra mags from the other guns?

Answer is not a much.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:47 am #123883

Steelpoint wrote:What's the difference between taking three Laser guns versus taking One Rifle and several extra mags from the other guns?

Answer is not a much.

3 laser rifles are 3 normal sized items that give you 36 shots
1 autorifle and 6 mags are- I believe the same size as 3 laser rifles backpack wise- and gives you 140 shots

Hint: 104 shots is kind of a lot

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:50 am #123884

Let's assume, for the sake of argument and if my PR is merged, that you have three rifles and three lasers in the armoury.

What difference is there if you take the ammo versus the lasers. The lasers can be pulled out and fired instantly, the mags have to be inserted.

Its not a big difference.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:51 am

Shaps wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:What's the difference between taking three Laser guns versus taking One Rifle and several extra mags from the other guns?

Answer is not a much.
3 laser rifles are 3 normal sized items that give you 36 shots
1 autorifle and 6 mags are- I believe the same size as 3 laser rifles backpack wise- and gives you 140 shots

Hint: 104 shots is kind of a lot

Laser rifles have 10 shots each on /tg/ , I thought

onleavedontatme · Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:51 am

Steelpoint wrote:What's the difference between taking three Laser guns versus taking One Rifle and several extra mags from the other guns?

Answer is not a much.

3 laserguns is 36 shots. 1 rifle and 1 magazine is already more than that and you can fit far more spare magazines on you then you can spare guns.

And its not really rifle vs the laserguns since you can just pile both into your bag. Your original PR increased the number of shots in the armory from 60 to 340 (with the wardens gun+ammo). That's fucking huge.

mags have to be inserted.

Oh come on

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:52 am #123887

Then I can lower the mag size.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:54 am #123888

Also the Head of Security spawns with his own Energy Gun and a Taser, take that into account.

Or does the HoS Gun not count? Same as the Warden Gun.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Oct 07, 2015 6:57 am

Steelpoint wrote:Also the Head of Security spawns with his own Energy Gun and a Taser, take that into account.

Or does the HoS Gun not count? Same as the Warden Gun.

so the difference is 80/360 instead of 60/340

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:00 am #123892

No the difference would be...

86 Laser rounds versus 80 Bullet rounds.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:06 am #123893

So then with 3 lasers and 3 autorifles with no extra mags you're basically left with 3 laser rifles which are already proven to work fine and can be recharged and 3 autorifles that become useless paperweights when emptied, unless you go to cargo or science and stock up on 9mm ammo boxes or magazines, in which case we're right back to people running around with 300 extra rounds on them

How is this an improvement to just having 3 eguns and 3 laser rifles?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:07 am #123895

Jesus are we swinging back and fourth between the guns being OP and the guns being useless.

I've explained a thousand times the advantages and disadvantages of the guns, I really don't want to explain them a thousand times more.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:11 am #123896

Steelpoint wrote:Let's assume, for the sake of argument and if my PR is merged, that you have three rifles and three lasers in the armoury.

What difference is there if you take the ammo versus the lasers. The lasers can be pulled out and fired instantly, the mags have to be inserted.

Its not a big difference.

Uwot?

Laser: Shoot 12 times, put in mag and get new one out, shoot 12 more times
Autorifle: Shoot 20 times, click gun with new mag, shoot 20 more times

3 lasers + 3 eguns = 66(?) shots, while almost entirely filling your bag, and a single emp will cuck all of them.
1 Autorifle + 2 spare mags (that is assuming ALL spare mags are removed from the armoury, purely looting the mags in the guns) = 60 shots, and only take up like 2 guns with of space.
You can then also get ammo boxes to instantly refill mags, and fill up the rest of the space with whatever other guns you care to fit.

They're not good for round start shit. Leave them as cargo only.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:14 am #123898

3 Laser Guns = 34 lasers

3 Energy Guns = 30 lasers

1 HoS Gun = 10 lasers

1 HoS Egun = 12 lasers

Versus

3 Auto Rifles = 60 bullets

1 Warden Rifle = 20 bullets

So really its 86 to 80.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:15 am #123899

Also, assuming my PR is merged, I'm going to make the bullets fire a non-9mm rounds so you can't fill er up at cargo easily.

i can even lower the mag to 15 rounds.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:17 am #123902

They're OP in their current implementation and everyone is telling you that roundstart assault rifles with infinitely printable ammo won't work, so you're suggesting nerfing them into the ground (AKA no mags in the armory making them paperweights without ammo from cargo or science after the first mag) to the point where people would just prefer to use lasers over them. The only thing is, instead of having paperweight rifles alongside the lasers, why wouldn't we just have lasers?

What is even the point of making it a ballistic weapon if you're going to snowflake away the method that every single other ballistic weapon uses to get ammo?

onleavedontatme · Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:17 am

Steelpoint wrote:Jesus are we swinging back and fourth between the guns being OP and the guns being useless.

I've explained a thousand times the advantages and disadvantages of the guns, I really don't want to explain them a thousand times more.

Well they're more or less identical to laserguns other than the ammo availability, and when you promise to take away all their ammo then yeah nothing sets them apart and they'd be useless.

Its not like they're a new game mechanic or new code or anything they're just more guns that function like every other generic gun give or take damage/ammo values.

They're either gonna be straight better or redundant, and either way massively increase the firepower of the armory overall.

onleavedontatme · Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:19 am

Steelpoint wrote:
So really its 86 to 80.

Its 80+86, not vs. You dont choose roundstart which set of stuff you're getting.

That being said we set the number of guns in the armory when we had populations of 20-30 and full on stun combat so maybe having extra isnt the end of the world.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:29 am #123906

The guns primary purpose is to offer sec a good alternative wepaon in dealing with certain antags, from cult to op.

I'm going to tone down my posts on this matter, I"m going to get a brain haemorrhage.

Post by **Fatal** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:51 am #123910

Right now, the guns are OP for antags who loot the armory and nobody else, and I think removing the magazines from the armory is all that needs to be done

The rifles aren't supposed to be more, or less powerful than the laser guns, they are for dealing with (I don't even know why I feel this is worth mentioning) antags who are invulnerable to the laser guns, IE, nuke ops with shields and wizards / cult / lings with EMP, and without them, you are nerfing sec against these antags, who still have a massive advantage against security (okay perhaps not so much for lings)

Just remove the magazines from the armory and leave the damn things alone

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:52 am #123911

This PR here does very that, as well as removing the excess auto gun to bring it down to 3 guns in the armoury: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12122

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 10:19 am #123928

this is the second worst armory design so far no lockers and no shutters which is good but you cant really see the left half of the armory

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 11:59 am #123953

If Riot Shield + Rifle is so bad I could introduce the heavy_weapon var to the rifles, making them two handed instead of one handed.

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 12:08 pm #123954

I just feel these rifles simply add nothing to the game.

Weapons like dual e-sword and energy shields are balanced around the fact that they reflect most security weapons.

It is a break in theme and forces armory changes, of which all I have seen seem worse than the old layout.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:16 pm #123971

My rebalance PR was merged, I hope this goes a long way into working out the rifles.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12122

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:29 pm

Yolomerge is now an ingrained part of tg culture

brave new world people

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 1:50 pm #123985

No I discussed the changes on Coderbus IRC.

The PR primarily removes the excess auto rifle mags in the armoury, and removes one of the guns to bring it down to three rifles.

Not-Dorsidarf · Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:03 pm

Steelpoint wrote:No I discussed the changes on Coderbus IRC.

The PR primarily removes the excess auto rifle mags in the armoury, and removes one of the guns to bring it down to three rifles.

I liked it because it looked better than the current armory.

I said age of the #yolomerge because miauw has joined raz in merging generally unpopular PRs (even if I personally liked this one)

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 2:37 pm #123997

Dumb question, but can the sec autorifles be accessed at any alert level? Or just Red Alert.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:27 pm #124018

It feels like people just want them gone for the sake of not liking them. They are horribly OP up until a balance change is made at which point "OH WOW LOL WORTHLESS GUNS SO SHIT REMOVE"

Seriously damn

srifenbyxp · Post by **srifenbyxp** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 3:36 pm #124019

Helios wrote:Dumb question, but can the sec autorifles be accessed at any alert level? Or just Red Alert.

Any level, and the moment people sense when shits going down it's normally the first thing they grab

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:03 pm #124070

srifenbyxp wrote:
Helios wrote:Dumb question, but can the sec autorifles be accessed at any alert level? Or just Red Alert.
Any level, and the moment people sense when shits going down it's normally the first thing they grab

Would there be any change in their usage if it required Red Alert to access them?

Raven776 · Post by **Raven776** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 7:34 pm #124077

Did no one at all bring up the fact that guns can't fire through windows and that makes a huge difference on how combat plays out on this window filled station? I feel that that should factor into the balance discussion a bit.

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 8:55 pm #124100

Wyzack wrote:It feels like people just want them gone for the sake of not liking them. They are horribly OP up until a balance change is made at which point "OH WOW LOL WORTHLESS GUNS SO SHIT REMOVE"

Seriously damn

I mean...
Is the fact that people just straight up don't like them not a valid argument against them?
Maybe this massive resistance to them, despite all the stat changes that they've gone through, all the placement changes they've gone through, all the buffs and nerfs and changes they've had might mean there is something people don't like about them that goes further than just how effective they are.

In my humble, babby player opinion, I believe it has to do with the way Autorifles look, the way they look, the sounds they make, their name, their flavor text, ect.
Believe it or not, minor flavor things do effect the way people see and think about things even in the low-rp-ness of /tg/.

Something about arming security with these SUPER TACTICOOL BLACK BALLISTIC MACHINE GUNS makes them look more like a malevolent wannabe-paramilitary organization than a harsh-but-ultimatly-on-your-side scifi force of the public trust.

If TGstation's culture shares anything with actual /tg/ and the rest of 4chan, it's that we retain the anti-authoritarian, pro individual freedom culture that defines your average anon. The majority of tgstation's players are not sec, and a security officer with an autorifle gives off a far more authoritarian vibe than an officer with a laser gun in a very gut-feeling way. Combine this with Steelpoint's well known gunfetish, and no matter what stats they are given most people will see autorifles as Steelpoint trying to make playing HoS fulfill his own personal military power-fantasies, even if that wasn't his intention whatsoever.

Also, I think the bad handling of the original PRs, and whole "has been 'in testing' for weeks" thing might have left a bad taste in most player's mouths.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:43 pm #124116

Why couldn't it be a laser rifle instead?

Post by **oranges** » Wed Oct 07, 2015 9:51 pm #124120

BECAUSE RULE OF COOL

Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:27 am

I G N O R E
S T E E L P O I N T
K I L L
T H E
C O D E B A B Y

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:34 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:I G N O R E
S T E E L P O I N T
K I L L
T H E
C O D E B A B Y

BLOOD BLOOD BLOOD

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:45 am #124191

I still think some people are overestimating the power of the rifles.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:53 am #124194

Because steel refuses to accept that there is any alternative to his snowflake rifles.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 2:55 am #124196

Well the alternative is to make Energy Swords/Shields not deflect projectiles, but also only have a 50% chance (overall) to block any projectile, energy or ballisitc. In addition Jugg's would lose their deflection but gain a health boost. As well as several other minor changes.

Funny thing is when I proposed that I was told it was shit.

Tornadium · Post by **Tornadium** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:02 am #124202

Double post LMAO are you fucking serious.

Rifles trivialize combat? Have you even fucking played the game since they were introduced? Sec still get rolled with the Auto Rifles.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:05 am #124203

If the rifles are really overpowered (which imo they are not) then simply introducing features like making them two handed (heavy_weapons var) or reducing their mag size to fifteen rounds would be a better way forward instead of gutting the rifles.

Not to mention my merged PR removed the excess magazines and got rid of one of the guns.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:05 am #124204

They are items explicitly designed to let antags counter energy weapons that sec have. Nerfing them into uselessness when everyone has been fine with them for years is dumb. Juggernaut is debatable - honestly it's not hard to dodge reflected lasers since you KNOW it's going to happen, but they at the very least need a block chance.

The armoury already has ballistic weapons. Shotguns. There are already various shell types that can be used with them.

If you truly think sec needs to be able to counter the counter, then as I have already suggested, add lethal or whatever other extra shotgun ammo to the armoury, making a very niche item more useful.

This doesn't effect balance nearly as much because it's impractical (but not unviable with bluespace belt sack) to carry large amounts of shotgun ammo around. Also slow reloading, and the fact that you can only store it on your exosuit slot, unless you saw it down.

So a riot shotgun loaded with lethals/incendiary/etc is plenty to take down a guy with dual sword/shield (even with op armour), but not enough to murderbone.

Bam. A counter, not a DOUBLE THE LETHALITY OF THE ARMOURY.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Oct 08, 2015 3:13 am #124206

While correlation does not imply causation, I think looking to the more recent statistics for the game would help see what, if any, impact the rifles have had over the course of the past few weeks.

For example, did you know now Nuke Ops have a 52% win rate? Furthermore Nuke Ops have a identical 50% win rate on low and high pop! Whatever has been done to do that, the rifles or other features, is really good considering the biggest problem with Ops was the horrible win rates, at low pop Ops won at a 80%-100% rate but on high pop Ops won at a 20% rate. To go to a pure 50% win rate on virtually all pop levels is fantastic.

Cult has a 34% win rate overall, while I would love to discuss it the fact that cult saw a major overhaul precludes any ability to confidently talk about it.

Traitors, Changelings and Gang are really hard to talk about. I can see Traitors have a 26% win rate, as in doing all their objectives. However that's 300+ people out of 1100 people, with Traitor being the most played antag. Ling and Gang don't translate well to stats.

Blob has a 56% win rate, and overall goes from 80% to 48% ish win rate as the pop gets higher.

Rev has a 84% win rate, nuff said.

-----

While again, correlation does not imply causation. But I can say that the rifles have not made the game lopsided for Sec.