Implant rejection is bullshit

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:20 pm #126650

Implant Rejecting is fucking bullshit, as it is an automatic method of saying "nope, you're dead".
There doesn't need to be evidence of you being an antag, you're automatically killed.
Even if you're a gangleader who hasn't converted anyone, and the Head of Security and Captain storm in and stun cuff you because someone spraypainted a hallway, then get implanted, and that implant is rejected?
Automatically executed.
Even if you're a shadowling who hasn't killed anyone, hatched, if you get implanted, nope, you're automatically dead.
A revhead who hasn't converted anyone? Nope, if you're walking by the brig, they grab you, stun you, try to implant you? Nope, you're dead.
They take out all fucking subtelty from the game. As Rev, when you get implanted you can't remember anyone but the person who converted you. But that doesn't mean that's how sec will find out how the rev heads are, it'll be implants.
Why the fuck does Shadowling resist implants anyways? Hell, if we take out pre-hatch thralling, we better fucking get rid of the implants getting rejected because that's fucking bullshit

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:27 pm #126658

I ded pls nerf

Maybe as rev/ganghead you shouldn't be running around doing things where sec can see and capture you? I mean, if you want to make loyalty implants completely useless and take away their one use (making sure whoever you implanted isn't still a rev/gangster) go ahead and try, but that just means sec will execute and gib everyone they capture on the spot

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:28 pm #126661

Shaps wrote:I ded pls nerf

Maybe as rev/ganghead you shouldn't be running around doing things where sec can see and capture you? I mean, if you want to make loyalty implants completely useless and take away their one use (making sure whoever you implanted isn't still a rev/gangster) go ahead and try, but that just means sec will execute and gib everyone they capture on the spot

You're posing a false dichotomy and you know it.

onleavedontatme · Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:29 pm

We took the subtlety out because otherwise security ends up murdering the wrong people and then getting banned and nobody is happy

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:33 pm #126666

Kor wrote:We took the subtlety out because otherwise security ends up murdering the wrong people and then getting banned and nobody is happy

Why don't officers just interrogate people after implanting them for information?

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:35 pm #126669

Why DO shadowlings reject the implant though?
Rev Heads are brainwashed by the Syndicate to overthrow the station because they want it taken over.
Gang Leaders reject it because they're brainwashed by gangs who want to take it over.
Shadowlings reject it because of ???

Not-Dorsidarf · Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:37 pm

Helios wrote:Why DO shadowlings reject the implant though?
Rev Heads are brainwashed by the Syndicate to overthrow the station because they want it taken over.
Gang Leaders reject it because they're brainwashed by gangs who want to take it over.
Shadowlings reject it because of ???

Because, like changelings, they aren't even vaguely human. Or even from this dimension

Redblaze3000 · Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:38 pm

They are horrible aliens that want to end all life once they ascend. why would implants work on something thats only goal is to kill everything?

TechnoAlchemist · Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:38 pm

Because no antagonist is going to say anything if they are implanted?

I know you are upset that you died because you got caught being sketchy in maint, completely naked, after attacking an officer.

Next time be more careful not to have your location shouted out!

We need implants to prevent slaughter in team antag modes.

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:39 pm #126674

Every interrogation with a revhead ever:
"Are you a revhead?"
"No lol"
"Welp that's all I got"

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:39 pm #126675

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
Helios wrote:Why DO shadowlings reject the implant though?
Rev Heads are brainwashed by the Syndicate to overthrow the station because they want it taken over.
Gang Leaders reject it because they're brainwashed by gangs who want to take it over.
Shadowlings reject it because of ???
Because, like changelings, they aren't even vaguely human. Or even from this dimension

Changelings don't reject implants though

Redblaze3000 wrote:They are horrible aliens that want to end all life once they ascend. why would implants work on something thats only goal is to kill everything?

Changelings are horrible aliens that want to eat the entire station. Why do they work on Changelings?

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:41 pm #126679

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Because no antagonist is going to say anything if they are implanted?

I know you are upset that you died because you got caught being sketchy in maint, completely naked, after attacking an officer.

Next time be more careful not to have your location shouted out!

We need implants to prevent slaughter in team antag modes.

I can't stop him from shouting out my location because I'm a lawyer, and can't take out comms
I'd ascend and stop him from shouting out but I couldn't because for the last 5 minutes some player kept following me in maintenance corridors so I couldn't ascend, because that person kept following me
I couldn't kill that person, so I could ascend, because that person would shout, and then the station would come after me instantly.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:44 pm #126680

On another note, I wish cultists rejected implants so that there was an actual way to tell if you got a heretic with you. Currently you just see people ditching their tomes in their base and either not carrying any paper at all, or carrying a briefcase full of it as like a lawyer or something. It makes the round drag on far longer than it reasonably should because sec can't prove if people are a cultist without contraband, and just murdering everyone anyway will get them banned just like pre-implant revs.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:46 pm #126681

Helios wrote:
TechnoAlchemist wrote:Because no antagonist is going to say anything if they are implanted?

I know you are upset that you died because you got caught being sketchy in maint, completely naked, after attacking an officer.

Next time be more careful not to have your location shouted out!

We need implants to prevent slaughter in team antag modes.
I can't stop him from shouting out my location because I'm a lawyer, and can't take out comms
I'd ascend and stop him from shouting out but I couldn't because for the last 5 minutes some player kept following me in maintenance corridors so I couldn't ascend, because that person kept following me
I couldn't kill that person, so I could ascend, because that person would shout, and then the station would come after me instantly.

Then just walk around for a while. There's nothing saying you can't just go do your job for a while and come back when the coast is clear, this is why shadowlings start off as humans in the first place. If you seriously think someone is metagaming/metagrudging you then ahelp it and walk away.

On another note why the hell are you in maint as a lawyer. Change your clothes man good god, you look shifty as fuck walking around there as a lawyer.

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:49 pm #126682

Zilenan91 wrote:On another note, I wish cultists rejected implants so that there was an actual way to tell if you got a heretic with you. Currently you just see people ditching their tomes in their base and either not carrying any paper at all, or carrying a briefcase full of it as like a lawyer or something. It makes the round drag on far longer than it reasonably should because sec can't prove if people are a cultist without contraband, and just murdering everyone anyway will get them banned just like pre-implant revs.

Holy water.

Alzam · Post by **Alzam** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:50 pm #126683

Anyways, OP. If you were smart you would have stunned the guy following you then neck grabbed him before he had the chance to shout out your location and you would have had an easy thrall since he was willing to follow you into maint. Sorry you didn't think outside the box and got owned for it.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 9:56 pm #126686

Shaps wrote:Every interrogation with a revhead ever:
"Are you a revhead?"
"No lol"
"Welp that's all I got"

"that guy testifies that you converted him to the revolution"
"well he's lying"
"he's a security officer."

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:04 pm #126692

Alzam wrote:
Zilenan91 wrote:On another note, I wish cultists rejected implants so that there was an actual way to tell if you got a heretic with you. Currently you just see people ditching their tomes in their base and either not carrying any paper at all, or carrying a briefcase full of it as like a lawyer or something. It makes the round drag on far longer than it reasonably should because sec can't prove if people are a cultist without contraband, and just murdering everyone anyway will get them banned just like pre-implant revs.
Holy water.

That's assuming you have a chaplain, and many times there actually isn't one. This means you have to order the horribly overpriced religious supplies crate from cargo that gives a whopping three deconversions and useless bibles that can be printed out of the library infinitely. If you don't have the chaplain literally the only way to deal with cultists is to methodically kill and gib anyone who does anything ever, otherwise at least two of them will escape and they'll convert a whole department like rats all over again, keeping the round going when it should just end.

DaemonBomb · Post by **DaemonBomb** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:11 pm #126696

Helios wrote:"that guy testifies that you converted him to the revolution"
"well he's lying"
"he's a security officer."

Why would a rev testify against their rev head? Unless, in this hypothetical situation, he was deconverted, in which case that's breaking the big words that say that you don't remember who the other revs are.

Zilenan91 wrote:snip

I kinda wish the game checked for a roundstart chaplain before choosing the roundtype, but I'm pretty sure it chooses antags before choosing jobs so roundstart-loyalty implanted players will have an equal chance at getting antag.
I guess we could make the game choose a chaplain, then roll antags, then all other professions, but that sounds fucking horrible.
I guess HoPs can close all positions but chaplain in the event of a cult....

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:13 pm #126698

I guess, but that's assuming that ever gets into the meta, and also assuming cults don't space the null rod every round.

Hell, this is what Lifeweb does. Every round they have "cult" in the form of Thanati who can do rites and shit, and every round there has to be an Inquisitor to stop them, so that's how they balance it. I did actually suggest basically remaking our cult into lifeweb cult a while ago, where the chaplain will actually have a point in stopping the heretics from doing stuff. Would need an entire rework to it, but it wouldn't be that hard, really just re-purposing code that's already there.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:15 pm #126699

DaemonBomb wrote:
Helios wrote:"that guy testifies that you converted him to the revolution"
"well he's lying"
"he's a security officer."
Why would a rev testify against their rev head? Unless, in this hypothetical situation, he was deconverted, in which case that's breaking the big words that say that you don't remember who the other revs are.

Zilenan91 wrote:snip
I kinda wish the game checked for a roundstart chaplain before choosing the roundtype, but I'm pretty sure it chooses antags before choosing jobs so roundstart-loyalty implanted players will have an equal chance at getting antag.
I guess we could make the game choose a chaplain, then roll antags, then all other professions, but that sounds fucking horrible.
I guess HoPs can close all positions but chaplain in the event of a cult....

The text says "You remember nothing[remove_head ? "." : " but the name of the one who flashed you."

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:25 pm #126704

We have definitely had this thread in recent weeks. Without implant rejection sec needs to kill literally every rev to end the round because any of them could be the rev heads and they have no way to tell. If this was removed rev would be literally unwinnable for heads without mass murder
Please adress this, rev cannot actually function without implant rejection

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:39 pm #126708

Wyzack wrote:We have definitely had this thread in recent weeks. Without implant rejection sec needs to kill literally every rev to end the round because any of them could be the rev heads and they have no way to tell. If this was removed rev would be literally unwinnable for heads without mass murder
Please adress this, rev cannot actually function without implant rejection

We've had Rev rounds before implants.
"You remember nothingbut the name of the one who flashed you."
Just convince revs to fess up who converted them.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:42 pm #126710

Snitches get Stitches. And also get reconverted.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:42 pm #126711

what about when you catch that guy? Even if he is a revhead he can just lie and say so-and-so converted him and you have no way to prove otherwise, so once again you have to kill them all to be safe?

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:44 pm #126713

Wyzack wrote:what about when you catch that guy? Even if he is a revhead he can just lie and say so-and-so converted him and you have no way to prove otherwise, so once again you have to kill them all to be safe?

What reason would the deconverted person have to lie?
They'd have a reason not to snitch, but not one to lie

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:45 pm #126715

wait are you suggesting rev heads be able to be deconverted?

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:46 pm #126716

They'd have a reason not to snitch, but not one to lie

W h a t

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Thu Oct 15, 2015 10:54 pm #126718

Wyzack wrote:wait are you suggesting rev heads be able to be deconverted?

No. Just a return to how things worked before Implants

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 12:10 am #126740

Helios wrote:
Wyzack wrote:wait are you suggesting rev heads be able to be deconverted?
No. Just a return to how things worked before Implants

Before implants was years ago. Not only would the removal of implants force security to gun down the entire station when gangs are discovered, but, as what happened in old rev rounds, sec/heads would gun down the entire crew mercilessly in some sort of bizarro TDM. In fact, only recently have I noticed that for some reason officers aren't just shooting everything that moves with lethals when rev is confirmed once they run out of implants.

Feels hugbo x yo.

Sweaterkittens · Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:22 am

>Obligatory Git Gud.

But seriously, implant rejection is the only thing that gives rev/gang some semblance of structure. One of people's biggest gripes with modes like sling (before implant rejection) and ling currently is that often there is literally no proof that someone is antag when caught. So security can't do anything shrug and let someone who is almost certainly an antagonist back onto the station, not because the antagonist played smart, but because sec didn't want to get banned for killing someone.

With implant rejection, if you get caught while a revhead or gang leader, you're asking for it. Don't get caught, then. Sling is a bit of an outlier, and I'd argue that they shouldn't reject implants, but sling has some other problems that need to be sorted out, and I don't think it's that. And if security is organized enough to be raiding departments that early, good for them. Sec usually gets shithoused in both gang and rev anyway, more power to them if they manage a respectable resistance.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 2:24 am #126775

Rev has a 82% win rate as of late, so I wholeheartedly disagree with even touching loyalty implants.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:05 am #126788

im pretty sure you dont remember who converted you.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:17 am #126793

Rules tend to be all over the place but last time this was brought up you could only remember the person who converted you and no one else.

Though I might be wrong as again, these rules change often.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 3:27 am #126795

i can agree rules change a lot (fucking hulks and assimov)

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 5:55 am #126831

Something that might be apt to note that most people don't recognize, is that 'balancing' each mode so every group has a 50% chance of winning is not always the way to do things. I, at least, find things are invariably far more fun and interesting if it's an uphill battle for the protagonists - it gives more meaning to victory and so forth. That said, not EVERY mode should be like this.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 6:23 am #126836

It depends on the antag as well as the context.

A Nuke Op team winning is very different to a singular Traitor winning for example.

Nuke Ops for example have a overall 60% to a 55% win rate, however in the few (eight) rounds that are have 60 people the win rates plummets to 12% and even a 0% win rate on extreme high pop (70+)

Revolution on the other hand now has a 81% win rate for the Revolutionaries, and this win rate remains constant among all population levels with only small differences. The lowest win rate being 66% win rate on really low pop.

But overall it seems for most antagonists that they have around a 30% win rate. Such as Cult, Traitors, Wizards (more like 8%), Changeling and Malf.

bandit · Post by **bandit** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 7:21 am #126839

all of you have overlooked the most crucial part of this:

even if you get rid of implant rejection, security would STILL be able to meta, because the revhead wouldn't have a "________ looks like they've recovered their true allegiance!" message. unless you are suggesting that implants will de-revhead revheads. which is an interesting idea but IIRC rev code as it currently works will just make a new revhead out of a late arrival

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 8:15 am #126845

Helios wrote: Changelings are horrible aliens that want to eat the entire station. Why do they work on Changelings?

They got human DNA or some shit in them which belonged to whoever the fuck they absorbed to sneak on the station which tricks the implant into thinking they're a loyal crew member. Meanwhile the shadowlings are beings from another fucked up dimension or something and their fucked up genetic makeup keeps the implant from working properly or some shit like that. I dunno it's fucking canon now though.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:43 am #126851

i agree some things should win more often then others nuke ops should be about 50 percent rev should be about 95 percent most other things somewhere between 30 and 70 im not sure exactly for each mode though.

Not-Dorsidarf · Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:53 am

tuypo1 wrote:i agree some things should win more often then others nuke ops should be about 50 percent rev should be about 95 percent most other things somewhere between 30 and 70 im not sure exactly for each mode though.

>revs should have a 95% average winrate

are you fucking joking mate

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:56 am #126856

Well they're pretty damn close to 95% if not already.

It depends somewhat on the population.

Rounds with 30 to 39, 50 to 59 and 70 to 79 people have either a 88% or a 100% win rate. (Most rounds fall into here)

The lower wining chance timesare for 20 to 29 people, where the win rate is 66% 40 to 49 has a 75% win rate.

When you look at it, its hard not to be surprised with these results. You've got a lot of the station versus a few members of command staff, and the few members of security. Your hoping Security are manned enough to put up a fight and for the Command staff to not only not be understaffed but not get killed to quickly. Which is what happens, with most rounds lasting between 5 (ish) to 30 minutes.

tuypo1 · Post by **tuypo1** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 4:28 pm #126936

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:
tuypo1 wrote:i agree some things should win more often then others nuke ops should be about 50 percent rev should be about 95 percent most other things somewhere between 30 and 70 im not sure exactly for each mode though.
>revs should have a 95% average winrate

are you fucking joking mate

no im not rev should be a question of how long the heads can survive not if.

rockpecker · Post by **rockpecker** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:43 pm #127006

bandit wrote: even if you get rid of implant rejection, security would STILL be able to meta, because the revhead wouldn't have a "________ looks like they've recovered their true allegiance!" message. unless you are suggesting that implants will de-revhead revheads. which is an interesting idea but IIRC rev code as it currently works will just make a new revhead out of a late arrival

Two options here:

1. Revheads are trained to resist loyalty implants. They would look in every way like they're being de-revved. That message displays, the implant does stay inside them (so they show up on sechuds as implanted) and the revhead now gets to pretend they've been cured of their brainwashing and think of someone to blame for it.

2. Loyalty implants really do cure them. In that case the rev code would need to be changed to NOT just appoint a new revhead, so that you can beat the revs this way. Strategically it works just like now, except that the former revhead gets to live.

I like #1 a little better, in that it encourages some roleplay and strategy, and I'm afraid #2 would lead to it being de facto illegal for security to execute a known rev because "you're supposed to implant them".

Post by **Shaps-cloud** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:50 pm #127008

Revs don't RP out killing sec officers and heads of staff, why should sec and the heads be held to a higher standard for something they lose most of the time anyway?

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 9:54 pm #127011

You guys never realize what you are asking.

If implants don't work on head revs every rev caught will just be executed.

iamgoofball · Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:22 pm

I can just make it fake being loyalty implanted if they're a head rev

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:45 pm #127019

iamgoofball wrote:I can just make it fake being loyalty implanted if they're a head rev

Then how are the heads supposed to ever win? Once again, this means I will just execute every rev I get my hands on.

yay!

Post by **lumipharon** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 10:45 pm #127020

But that means you can't trust anyone you loyalty implant because you have no idea if they're a headrev waiting to murder you - which leads back to killing everyone.

Post by **oranges** » Fri Oct 16, 2015 11:28 pm #127026

but thats the fun part