Vampires (Side Antagonist) & Vampirism

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Oct 21, 2015 10:54 pm #128358

Bottom post of the previous page:

AnonymousNow wrote:How about some less hostile ways to get blood, possibly from willing subjects, Xhuis?

I don't see why not. Also, why are we talking in big text now?

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:28 am #128411

From watching your round as one, Xhuis, they seem sort of...impotent. They have nothing but their amnesia blood suck and reviving from death. They need more powers. Also, for fluff, vampires should slur or be unable to speak while sucking, for the obvious reason that they are fangs first in someone's neck.

Having puncture wounds be detectable in some fashion would be interesting as well.

ChangelingRain · Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:32 am

Needs some form of instant heal via blood so that it doesn't get stuck in crit forever.
Also, personal feeling is that it needs some sort of superstrength, with restraint breaking(maybe a martial art?) that costs blood and toggleable speed at, again, blood cost.
Maybe a brief AoE stun, themed as "Vampiric Presence" or something. Like, long enough to start draining someone.

Maybe even an anti-stun ability that drains blood for each stun it prevents?

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:34 am #128414

Saw a round with this. Looked alright, but a couple of points.

First off is that people can and will leave a vampire in critical condition and then lock it up. It doesn't look very fun for the vampire, people assuming you'll just ghost is pretty shit, and there's nothing anyone can do. One didn't even die when exposed to space for several minutes, which doesn't sound right according to the burn damage 200 limit but it happened. Needs some sort of 'last resort' ability to counter this. Swarm of bats? Dust that blows in the wind, then reforms? Even a changeling-style resurrection wouldn't work if they were bucklecuffed, which isn't a problem for lings because they have their own counters (acid and monkey form).

Second, and much more trivial, is that the goblet didn't look very fancy. Just like any other wine glass. Could do with a great sprite, but that would need, uhh, a good spriter. Having said that, it's not the cup that really matters here, is it? It's the vampire blood. You could provide an alternative of any cup working if the vampire bleeds into it, though maybe the goblet is magic, and if that's the case, it definitely needs to look fancy as hell.

Third is that the bloodsucking "animation" looks kind of weird. If you're standing next to someone they're stunned, but visibly about a foot away from you. If you made it more like changeling in that they appear underneath you it'd look much better (and be more obvious to passers by that something was up).

Shadowlight213 · Thu Oct 22, 2015 2:47 am

Xhuis wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:How about some less hostile ways to get blood, possibly from willing subjects, Xhuis?
I don't see why not. Also, why are we talking in big text now?

Big text is fun!
Also, it seems like currently dirty blood is completely useless, plus the whole braindeads don't give any clean blood is silly I think. Maybe have them give half as much? Clean blood is super important for vampires and making it hard to get is pretty annoying.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 3:27 am #128425

I suppose one obvious question is whether vampires need to be antagonistic at all.

Should security care if they catch someone who's a vampire, if they haven't killed anyone or hurt anyone? I suppose stealthily taking blood is a form of assault, but assault's hardly a capital crime. What is the vampire intended to do? Is their vampirism a curse that they reluctantly find forced upon themselves? Is it something traitors seek out, hoping to steal immortality? Are we just expecting them to do the usual traitor thing, try and murder people and rob the armory?

Because if it's just blood they're after, they don't have to be valid at all.

Oh, another point while I remember. It needs to be addressed in policy whether they're human or not. I personally would think that a vampire absolutely is human, just magically cursed. In the same way that a werewolf is a human who turns into a wolf, or a wizard is a human who can cast spells. Ignoring if they're lizards, obviously. But I did see a borg asked the question, it confidently answered "no" immediately and then tried to ineffectually kill the vampire. It ought to be clear. Then, if they are human, but already dead, how much can they be harmed? That's the second question to address.

DrPillzRedux · Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:42 am

If vamps aren't going to be valid why should they exist at all in Space Station 13? That'd just make them randoms with powers which isn't a good thing. As a side antag they're supposed to cause some trouble.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 6:26 pm #128539

If vamps aren't going to be valid why should they exist

To spice up the game, add new content, and create interesting roleplaying situations. Things don't have to be valid for them to be worthwhile additions to the gameplay. Obviously any antagonist of any kind is going to be valid because of our rules concerning antagonists being allowed to do whatever the hell they want. I'm merely questioning whether the vampires have to be designed as antagonists. We could indeed have a situation where vampires are forced to drain blood, but are constricted by a moral code (ie they can't do whatever they want,because they're not antags), which I think could be entertaining. In fact, vampires and antagonists could be two seperate circles on a venn diagram, occasionally crossing over but more often separate. Vampires could shock traitors with their durability in a fight, be the hero of the station when nuke ops come, or form some dastardly pact with security to rid the station of traitors in return for a fresh supply of blood.

AnonymousNow · Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:21 pm

Xhuis wrote:
AnonymousNow wrote:How about some less hostile ways to get blood, possibly from willing subjects, Xhuis?
I don't see why not. Also, why are we talking in big text now?

Because I-
Oh, sorry. I asked you variations on this question twice before. It'd be pretty cool to get some sort of vampire-cult going, or an elder vampire showing his minions the ropes.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:33 pm #128565

I've taken a lot of this feedback to heart, and it's raised some interesting questions. Will created vampires be as strong as the alpha vampire? Will vampires be valid it all? A lot of this is gonna have to go into consideration. This might take a while.

DrPillzRedux · Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:46 pm

I don't quite understand how vampires fit into SPACE STATION 13 without an antag factor to them. Why do some people need powers from round start if not meant to antagonize the crew? If they are why shouldn't the crew be able to purge them?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Oct 22, 2015 8:51 pm #128570

DrPillzRedux wrote:I don't quite understand how vampires fit into SPACE STATION 13 without an antag factor to them. Why do some people need powers from round start if not meant to antagonize the crew? If they are why shouldn't the crew be able to purge them?

That kind of logic is like asking why people have the potential to create dangerous things if people have the potential not to be antagonists. Like I said, I'm still brainstorming where to go with these.

DrPillzRedux · Thu Oct 22, 2015 10:21 pm

Vampires make zero sense though.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:03 am #128617

If vampires make zero sense then what the heck is wizard mode

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:20 am #128619

All right. I have two methods of doing vampire abilities, short of not doing them at all.

I can give them toggles - i.e. an ability called "Accelerated Recuperation" that allows you to toggle faster healing at the cost of increased blood reduction;
I can give them immediate-use abilities that cost a chunk of blood with a small cooldown - i.e. the "Accelerated Recuperation" ability having a 10-second cooldown, costing a hefty amount of blood, and healing similar to Fleshmend.

Place your votes here.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:27 am #128621

Can all vampires do is heal?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 12:51 am #128627

Zilenan91 wrote:Can all vampires do is heal?

They heal passively using clean blood and never have to eat.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:20 am #128679

I'm more of a fan of 'immediate use': it strikes me that a vampire should be rewarded for having a high amount of blood in the bank, and also that the sort of situations in which the abilities will be useful are going to require a lot of healing (e.g. stuck in space cuffed to a bed).

Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:29 am

why cant we have both toggles and immediate?

Doritos · Post by **Doritos** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 4:43 am #128687

From what I've seen vampires don't really DO anything. They're just like regular crewmembers except with a viro regen virus. (With one of the debuffs being you're valid.)

Vampires with disciplines ala VTM (or lifeweb) would be cool.

Celerity for no click delay and oldspeed pls.

Super Aggro Crag · Fri Oct 23, 2015 2:58 pm

they should be able to summon space bats as friends like Orlok on Metastation

onleavedontatme · Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:43 pm

There is, as far as I could tell from watching, no disadvantage to being a vampire.

It's actually beneficial to let them give you immortality by being their "victim." Same deal as security. No reason to stop the guy handing out healing.

They're not so much side antags as a benign player controlled buff virus.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 5:54 pm #128781

Kor wrote:There is, as far as I could tell from watching, no disadvantage to being a vampire.

It's actually beneficial to let them give you immortality by being their "victim." Same deal as security. No reason to stop the guy handing out healing.

They're not so much side antags as a benign player controlled buff virus.

What's the disadvantage to being a cultist?
It gives you tomes, which gives you various powers, and the ability to do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to.
No reason to stop the cult from handing out cult tomes, and turning the crew into cultists

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:25 pm #128807

Helios wrote:
Kor wrote:There is, as far as I could tell from watching, no disadvantage to being a vampire.

It's actually beneficial to let them give you immortality by being their "victim." Same deal as security. No reason to stop the guy handing out healing.

They're not so much side antags as a benign player controlled buff virus.
What's the disadvantage to being a cultist?
It gives you tomes, which gives you various powers, and the ability to do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to.
No reason to stop the cult from handing out cult tomes, and turning the crew into cultists

There's not much wrong with one cultist. There is, however, something deeply problematic about having a cult. When they get together, cultists always end up being incredibly violent, gibbing people in the hallways and trying to summon their hugely destructive god, that will kill anyone it comes into contact with and spawn thousands of construct harvesters that also like to kill anyone they see.

When vampires get together, they just carry on being normal vampires. No sudden rage god, no armies of constructs, they're as chill (or not) as they were before.

ThanatosRa · Post by **ThanatosRa** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 8:54 pm #128817

I demand diablerie.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 9:25 pm #128821

That might be too much chaos. Or too much incentive for backstabbing.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Fri Oct 23, 2015 10:24 pm #128839

Cheimon wrote:
Helios wrote:
Kor wrote:There is, as far as I could tell from watching, no disadvantage to being a vampire.

It's actually beneficial to let them give you immortality by being their "victim." Same deal as security. No reason to stop the guy handing out healing.

They're not so much side antags as a benign player controlled buff virus.
What's the disadvantage to being a cultist?
It gives you tomes, which gives you various powers, and the ability to do things you otherwise wouldn't be able to.
No reason to stop the cult from handing out cult tomes, and turning the crew into cultists
There's not much wrong with one cultist. There is, however, something deeply problematic about having a cult. When they get together, cultists always end up being incredibly violent, gibbing people in the hallways and trying to summon their hugely destructive god, that will kill anyone it comes into contact with and spawn thousands of construct harvesters that also like to kill anyone they see.

When vampires get together, they just carry on being normal vampires. No sudden rage god, no armies of constructs, they're as chill (or not) as they were before.

Cults don't really gib people anymore, not like the used to.

onleavedontatme · Sat Oct 24, 2015 1:35 am

Cult literally always has an objective to gib at least one person.

That and, you know having a "summon elder god to consume everyone" objective half the time.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:22 am #128917

First tentative abilities have been added.

Sanguine Regeneration: A toggleable ability that causes wounds to be regenerated much more quickly but increases passive blood consumption.
Accelerated Recovery: A toggleable ability that increases stun recovery while causing more blood to be passively consumed.
Chiropteran Shapeshift: An ability that costs 100cl of clean blood or 300cl of dirty blood. Upon using it, you will turn into a vampire bat. These bats move extremely quickly, can maneuver in space without fear, and can ventcrawl. Attacking non-dead humans will drain a tiny amount of clean blood. They have 40 health. Death or reverting back to human in this form will paralyze the human themselves for 5 seconds.
Demonic Strength: An ability that costs 50cl of clean blood or 150cl of dirty blood. Using it allows you to snap handcuffs with the ease of a twig, but this surge of strength is very temporary and will only work to remove handcuffs.

onleavedontatme · Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:30 am

>fleshmend and adrenaline sacs

Careful where you're going with this.

Incomptinence · Sat Oct 24, 2015 3:39 am

Well at least they should do things now.

onleavedontatme · Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:03 am

In fact all of them seem like the annoying changeling "defensive" abilities that they use to murder everyone.

Its also kinda redundant as far as antag types go. We dont need another creature that shrugs off the armory.

Do something new like Hypnotic gaze, which antags a target for ~3 minutes with a custom objective (that the vampire sets) before wearing off. Requires 10 seconds or whatever so they gotta be taken captive first. Amnesia afterwards.

Actually I think I'm gonna do a new stand with that ability (and finally make them more tc I guess)

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:17 pm #128993

What exactly are vamps weak against? I sense a vampire hunter gimmick coming

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 2:59 pm #129008

Wyzack wrote:What exactly are vamps weak against? I sense a vampire hunter gimmick coming

Holy water, chaplains (well, they can't feed off them).

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:17 pm #129019

Wyzack wrote:What exactly are vamps weak against? I sense a vampire hunter gimmick coming

Holy water, consecrated areas (think chapel), chaplains themselves... mainly, holy stuff. I'll probably add garlic at some point, too, as well as the ability to coat wood in garlic to create stakes that function as powerful melee weapons against vampires or can instantly kill a critted vampire (even though they can't die normally).

Alex Crimson · Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:34 pm

Neat idea, but i doubt it will be much fun. Lifeweb requires your character to go to sleep, and in combat it pretty easy to grab/bite someone, especially with the grab system working off a strength stat. /tg/ would need similar features to make Vampire interesting to play, if you are not going the aggro route for their design.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 4:44 pm #129031

Can we also get one of those ridiculous stovepipe hats and a matching jacket to the clothesmate/autodrobe so i can be a Warhammer Fantasy style witch hunter burning peeps at the stake and stuff

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 7:18 pm #129079

Can we also have some pretty severe downsides to being a vampire? Like beast mode or something, where if you don't get enough blood you become essentially a simple mob for a while that kills people and drinks their blood?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 9:15 pm #129097

Putting mobs in control of simple mobs never works out well, as evidenced by the first iteration of Last Resort.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Sat Oct 24, 2015 10:07 pm #129106

yeah headslugs are kinda shit. If we wanted to fix those, making them unbumpable would go a long way to solving it.