/tg/Station 13

Since a few people who shall not be named won't shut the fuck up, here's a poll to settle the issue of map rotation. Are you satisfied with the map rotation system MSO implemented? Disregard things like map selection, weights, etc. as those can be changed easily within the current system

You realize how skewed this poll is gonna be, right? One, this is on the forums, two, mainly the people who don't like it will vote here against it, and three, a minority screaming constantly is always gonna be present, and they will always be loud.

Go have a server poll made instead, and have it be announced majorly so everyone can know to vote for it.

WJohnston wrote:You realize how skewed this poll is gonna be, right? One, this is on the forums, two, mainly the people who don't like it will vote here against it, and three, a minority screaming constantly is always gonna be present, and they will always be loud.

Go have a server poll made instead, and have it be announced majorly so everyone can know to vote for it.

If anybody with the ability to make a server poll wants to do so, go ahead. The forums voted in favor of it in the first place. Judging by the fact that Box loses the map vote fairly regularly on Sybil, it's safe to say plenty of people want to play on something other than box once in a while. This poll exists to prove a point more than anything.

I'll make a server poll.

TGStation had been using Noize's map for 5 years now. After 5 years of iteration It's refined, it's balanced, it has an established metagame and protagonist and antagonist strategies. There is no way any map can compete with it. It is however also stale and boring and a new map could refresh the server, especially for old players.

I maintain that a unified experience across tgstation, with the ability to create play strategies and learn the map in detail, is an important thing for any community, which is why I generally dislike differentiation between the two servers.

I am however temporarily pro map rotation for a period of a few months. This is so players can familiarize themselves with all the maps and the map makers can get feedback and fix the most glaring issues. After this, I think the best performing map (hopefully not box) should be selected as the de jure tgstation map and be put as the only map on the tgstation servers. Then the process of refinement can properly begin.

LiamLime wrote:it has an established metagame and protagonist and antagonist strategies.

This is all the more reason to keep maps switching constantly.

Yeah lets keep only playing the same fucking map for another 5 years.

Wooo!

LiamLime wrote:TGStation had been using Noize's map for 5 years now. After 5 years of iteration It's refined, it's balanced, it has an established metagame and protagonist and antagonist strategies. There is no way any map can compete with it. It is however also stale and boring and a new map could refresh the server, especially for old players.

I maintain that a unified experience across tgstation, with the ability to create play strategies and learn the map in detail, is an important thing for any community, which is why I generally dislike differentiation between the two servers.

I am however temporarily pro map rotation for a period of a few months. This is so players can familiarize themselves with all the maps and the map makers can get feedback and fix the most glaring issues. After this, I think the best performing map (hopefully not box) should be selected as the de jure tgstation map and be put as the only map on the tgstation servers. Then the process of refinement can properly begin.

I disagree with this, the players will quickly settle on the map they figure is best anyway, since they choose via their preferences. There's no reason to mandate a single map ever. Besides, despite my initial reservations the other maps make a nice change of pace - as long as we don't have them too rounds in a row.

My only issue is the lack of ability to find a specific department in any timely fashion, even having to alt-tab over to a browser with the full station map up.

Those directional arrow signs were a good start when they were added but some of these maps have some really wonky main hallways.

Some of the maps are simply too large (asteroid, disk) to play on. Takes way too long to move around them. I like the rotation in general though.

Wasn't Ass a really old map redone? Like back with oldspeed in mind?

I think the bit of travel time isn't bad. It's frustrating but it gives antags a bit of time to escape after "HELP BEING MURDERED IN BOTANY".

If you wanted to be amusing you could add public travelator's (moving walkway) down public hallways? Place switches on opposite ends to change direction or set it to one direction. This can allow for faster movement, but the hallway will have to be about four or five tiles wide.

Or you can have a public transit tube of sorts, like a taxi.

Saegrimr wrote:My only issue is the lack of ability to find a specific department in any timely fashion, even having to alt-tab over to a browser with the full station map up.

Those directional arrow signs were a good start when they were added but some of these maps have some really wonky main hallways.

it should be totally possible to have those maps you see in box arrivals clickable and bringing up a minimap of the station. somebody just has to code it.

That's what I said a few weeks ago.

There should be those maps you see in arrivals all around the station, maybe even have one loaded onto PDA's. This should make travel easier.

I dislike map rotation but I'm a boxxy for life type guy.
Maybe if the shit maps were removed it'd be better.

I dislike it for one reason.
When it starts on Meta, it is on meta for 3-5 rounds.
When you have 5 rounds in a row on meta, it is less rotation, and more just META

Helios. Welcome to randomness. The following is a sequence is random numbers.

3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3,

What's the point of voting on what map I prefer if it is random?

To give it better odds of being chosen randomly.

Helios. Let's put it like this. The map options are Map A and Map B. 90% of people vote for map A. 10% vote for Map B. Currently it is on Map A. There isn't a 100% chance for a map rotation to occur. The longer the round lasts, the longer the chance for a map rotation to occur. Now, even though Map B has 10% of the votes, there's always the chance for a bunch of rounds to have Map B in a row due to how randomness works.

WJohnston wrote:You realize how skewed this poll is gonna be, right? One, this is on the forums, two, mainly the people who don't like it will vote here against it, and three, a minority screaming constantly is always gonna be present, and they will always be loud.

Apparently not even that.

That sure is a lot of no votes.

i dont really like map rotation because of "muh bawx," though i'd be fine with a weighted system. one that just rotates regardless is something i dont like.

but dat aint nonna my bidness tho *sips tea*

This is probably going to be immensely skewed because the main problem people have with map rotation is having shit/broken maps in the rotation with no QC or requirements to get into it in the first place, aside from 'has pressure'. Basically any map other than box/meta is unplayable dreck or a meme map.

There needs to be a standard to have your map put in rotation. Asteroid is one example where it's a good map bu there's so much missing or broken stuff. Medbay for instance has no IV stands or packs so it's easier to kill patients and clone them if they have ~50% blood volume. Buttons and air alarms in the wrong places, misnamed rooms, atmos bugs.

Second, there isn't a map rotation most of the time because admins will override it to go back to box.

"Disregard things like map selection, weights, etc. as those can be changed easily within the current system"

So basically this is a map rotation poll that has almost nothing to do with the problems with map rotation?

Map Selection and Weights are not something that can be "easily changed" unless your name also happens to be "MSO".

DrPillzRedux wrote:There needs to be a standard to have your map put in rotation. Asteroid is one example where it's a good map bu there's so much missing or broken stuff. Medbay for instance has no IV stands or packs so it's easier to kill patients and clone them if they have ~50% blood volume. Buttons and air alarms in the wrong places, misnamed rooms, atmos bugs.

Second, there isn't a map rotation most of the time because admins will override it to go back to box.

That's why there is a feedback thread, so people can report this kind of stuff. The IV drips and packs were already added to the map.

Honestly map rotation would be fine if we limited it to meta/box and maybe the occasional meme map, but the other maps are so immensely broken, empty, unbalanced, or just plain bad design (asteroid, birdboat) to play, especially for maint-centric antagonists [cult, shadowling, changeling, blob] which roll on maps with ridiculous maintenance systems (e.g. dream). Heck, I don't think I've seen a blob lose on a non-box map thus far, unless they pop in the middle of the station, and even then.

Obviously, the IG and OOC poll here is going to come up positive, because the system isn't the problem - it's the maps and the nonexistent process/requirements to get into the rotation is.

firecage wrote:Helios. Let's put it like this. The map options are Map A and Map B. 90% of people vote for map A. 10% vote for Map B. Currently it is on Map A. There isn't a 100% chance for a map rotation to occur. The longer the round lasts, the longer the chance for a map rotation to occur. Now, even though Map B has 10% of the votes, there's always the chance for a bunch of rounds to have Map B in a row due to how randomness works.

A lot of randomness in games aren't actually random.
Just because it can use random elements in it, doesn't mean it has to be full RNG.

Amelius wrote:Honestly map rotation would be fine if we limited it to meta/box and maybe the occasional meme map, but the other maps are so immensely broken, empty, unbalanced, or just plain bad design (asteroid, birdboat) to play, especially for maint-centric antagonists [cult, shadowling, changeling, blob] which roll on maps with ridiculous maintenance systems (e.g. dream). Heck, I don't think I've seen a blob lose on a non-box map thus far, unless they pop in the middle of the station, and even then.

Obviously, the IG and OOC poll here is going to come up positive, because the system isn't the problem - it's the maps and the nonexistent process/requirements to get into the rotation is.

This I can get behind. The options should be box, meta, and maybe two other maps that are weighted lower. Asteroid and Dream shouldn't even be in rotation imo.

Can we please blacklist the same map from being rolled again? We've had days where it's rolled nothing but box

i think a system where it can roll again, but each consecutive roll decreases the odds of it being rolled the next round, would be ideal

I think it was originally coded so it's more likely to roll the same map multiple times in a row (i.e. there was some additionally weighting on a map for being the one currently played) so that the playerbase has more opportunity to get used to it.

PKPenguin321 wrote:i think a system where it can roll again, but each consecutive roll decreases the odds of it being rolled the next round, would be ideal

I'd also like the chance to get to 0. Not to 1%

Kor wrote:Some of the maps are simply too large (asteroid, disk) to play on. Takes way too long to move around them. I like the rotation in general though.

It's just a raw contrast but I'd refer you to these rough comparison about map sizes.

Amelius wrote:This is probably going to be immensely skewed because the main problem people have with map rotation is having shit/broken maps in the rotation with no QC or requirements to get into it in the first place, aside from 'has pressure'. Basically any map other than box/meta is unplayable dreck or a meme map.

Oldman Robustin wrote:"Disregard things like map selection, weights, etc. as those can be changed easily within the current system"

Amelius wrote:Obviously, the IG and OOC poll here is going to come up positive, because the system isn't the problem - it's the maps and the nonexistent process/requirements to get into the rotation is.

We're going to do opinion polls for each of the maps once this one finishes. We're also probably going to end it early if the outcome becomes clear. And maybe once it's done people will stop whining about the map rotation system as a way to complain about the maps they don't like and instead go and post their feedback to the mappers themselves.

Oldman Robustin wrote:Map Selection and Weights are not something that can be "easily changed" unless your name also happens to be "MSO".

Map rotation is done from a config, any of the ~7 people with remote can easily edit it.

iamgoofball wrote:idea: blacklist a map from being rolled if it's the current map

PKPenguin321 wrote:i think a system where it can roll again, but each consecutive roll decreases the odds of it being rolled the next round, would be ideal

This would be nice and is very possible.

newfren wrote:I think it was originally coded so it's more likely to roll the same map multiple times in a row (i.e. there was some additionally weighting on a map for being the one currently played) so that the playerbase has more opportunity to get used to it.

Not the case, I'm not sure where you got this idea.

iamgoofball wrote:idea: blacklist a map from being rolled if it's the current map

Idea: force us to play less Box even if people want to play it. Force us to play meme maps.

Jordie0608 wrote: And maybe once it's done people will stop whining about the map rotation system as a way to complain about the maps they don't like and instead go and post their feedback to the mappers themselves.

Any amount of feedback won't make a shit map into a good map. Meta has potential, esp. since Metacide is moving tcomms (I think?) and it's definitely playable as-is, but Ass and Birdboat especially have glaring structural issues that cannot be solved, but were put into rotation way before even being vaguely complete, let alone having workable layouts for our suite of gamemodes.

The latter especially should never have even made it into the rotation in the first place. Yet it did.

Amelius wrote:

Jordie0608 wrote: And maybe once it's done people will stop whining about the map rotation system as a way to complain about the maps they don't like and instead go and post their feedback to the mappers themselves.

Any amount of feedback won't make a shit map into a good map. Meta has potential, esp. since Metacide is moving tcomms (I think?) and it's definitely playable as-is, but Ass and Birdboat especially have glaring structural issues that cannot be solved, but were put into rotation way before even being vaguely complete, let alone having workable layouts for our suite of gamemodes.

The latter especially should never have even made it into the rotation in the first place. Yet it did.

Everyone keeps shouting that assteroid has glaring un-solvable issues. but NO ONE I have asked (and yes I asked a lot) has EVER told me what they are.

I have removed the default vote for box station.

All maps (including box) have the same vote weighting, but box station has to be actually selected by players now, its not assumed.

I'll re-add box station as a default in a week, hopefully players will have a better idea of what maps they like then and the votes will spread out.

Another note, a map has to have at least one vote (default or not) to qualify for rotate. Regardless of vote weighting

Some finer details as to how map rotation works:

It tallies everybody's votes into a list of map = number_of_votes. (ignoring votes for maps that don't exist, are disabled, or don't meet the maps population requirements)
It then weights the votes by each maps vote weight config (this allows us to make votes for certain maps count for more or less, not currently, but it is planned to start deprioritizing maps with issues as a motivation to fix them)
Then it picks a random number between 1 and the total number of final votes
Then it goes thru the list of maps and their vote counts, subtracting the number of votes from the random number until that number is 0 or less, the map that put it to 0 or less is the chosen map.
(The order of maps in that list is the order of when it first saw a vote for that map)

The more votes a map has, the more likely it is to drive that random number to 0

Do we have results for the server poll yet?

Yes. 177
No. 49
Abstain. 13

They're never gonna spread out because most people barely touch their prefs, it needs to be an active decision you're forced to take once after x weeks of play.

oranges wrote:They're never gonna spread out because most people barely touch their prefs, it needs to be an active decision you're forced to take once after x weeks of play.

> once

we should make it something that shows up daily.

that's just annoying