/tg/Station 13

As of right now a medical overhaul is in testing on Sybil.

List of changes: https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/12937

I'm really liking this. Chems having upsides and downsides and no more hard crit.

Ambitious as shit, but it looks cool. Any chance we can trial it on basil as well?

Being serious I'll be interested in seeing how this pans out. I'm going to hedge a bet that the system will remain broken for a while however, if Goofchem is anything to go by.

Anything the helps give variety to the current med system is a welcomed change in my opinion, I hope it works out.

Cryo is currently broken as fuck.

The 50u painkillers in the firekit OD you and kill your ass.

You bleed out fast, which is a huge issue now. Since this system is pretty much goonmed, make it so help intent on a bleeding limb puts pressure on the wound and slows bleeding, and rolls a chance to stop it if it's small. Moving would of course stop the pressure.

Can't say i'm happy about

>Medical Hypospray: 30u hypospray only capable of holding medicines. Any attempts to transfer in non-medicinal products will be blocked. You can emag the hypospray to remove this lock. It comes with 15u of Saline Glucose Solution, 7.5u of Epinephrine, and 7.5u of Sal. Acid.
or
>If you reach 100 BRAIN damage, you will be weakened and start racking up LOSEBREATH.

The above really means i'm gonna space whatever fucking Chaplain thinks he's going to heal me with his bible.

I don't see how making things more complicated is going to achieve a positive gameplay result.

There are consequences for fighting or fucking up now. You need to take some time to get treated by a doctor and not just run to the dorms and use a bruisepack to heal being cut open by a fireaxe.

This makes doc 10x more fun for me personally.

Compilation lets you get drawn into it. If minecraft just had one type of block, it would have been a boring game, giving different tools better ability at different tasks, gives it a bit of depth, giving those tools better strength and lower dig times based on the material gives it depth.

Having a medbay that is easy and simple to work in might be more friendly to new players, but adding more problems and more "right tool for the job"s gives it a depth to allow a player to grow in to it.

The only issue is goofball sucks at this, he tends to go all or nothing in everything he touches. It's either overly complex with no simple but not quite as effective alternatives. or those alternatives are too simple and the rest might as well not exist.

Ideally this should be used to give medbay a multitiered system. Too new to know how to treat things optimally, well just give them a bunch of chems, wait a bit, give them some more, let them heal slowly, and discharge them. Want to refine your game, here are some quicker but more complex ways to do the same thing.

This allows the player to grow in to the game.

Chaplain bibles are HILARIOUSLY AND DISTURBINGLY ROBUST NOW.

Also if you spawn in as a chaplain with one of the meme gods that give you brain damage, you are instantly put into crit as soon as you spawn, and you're basically dead.

10/10 change.

The idea seems cool but holy shit is it broken in a lot of ways

Also painkiller OD's do basically nothing, and you get ephedrine tier speed + no slowdown with basically no downside other than a little tox loss now and then (which doesn't matter since antitoxin doesn't purge the painkiller now anyway so you can just take a swig every once in a while to heal without worrying about losing the painkiller)

patches working on corpses is shit. That was removed for a reason.

Bad for multiple reasons. Reposting from git:

> Silver Sulf., Styptic Powder, and Synthflesh Now works on corpses again.

Why would you do this? Death is yet again meaningless. You can kill people and no matter what you do to them sans gibbing they'll be walking around with zero delay the moment the corpse is found, often the MOMENT the corpse is found even for more than 2-3 seconds. This 'feature' was removed for a reason - it's unbalanced and tilts everything really really fucking hard toward the crew, and makes removing people from the round as an antagonist for more than a brief moment mission fucking impossible unless you somehow bomb medbay, destroy all three defibs, and knock out cloning.

Then you can combine that with the new crit changes, meaning it can take like 5 swings of a double esword to kill someone. Beating someone to death with a baton, especially with armor? See you tomorrow. Then even if you kill them, they'll be walking around the moment someone finds their corpse. Goddamn this is terrible design, goof.

> Medical Hypospray: 30u hypospray only capable of holding medicines. Any attempts to transfer in non-medicinal products will be blocked.

Why the fuck would you nerf the one-of-a-kind hypospray that NO ONE had any problem with for antag use to another emag-only item. Another shitty change for the sake of it.

> At 400 blood you can randomly go into shock.

Also terrible. Anything 100% RNG-based is objectively terrible in every way. You lose a bit of blood - alright, but at randomly passing out even at acceptable blood levels is just plain terrible design. It's almost appendicitis-level terrible.

I mean, I could understand RNG entering the game at 300/200, but 400 means you'll have antags that were gored with a single spear randomly passing out during combat with 390/500 blood levels. How is that fun?


Also - medkits are now severely nerfed, no longer having the brute packs or ointment, only letting you heal around 2~ people per medkit, down from 12~. Huge nerf that there was no reason for.


------------------------


Overall, shit changes, sans the chem changes since I haven't had the chance to test them. The crit changes don't work with the amount of damage our equipment does, or our armor, and it tilts the entire game toward the side of the crew to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if every mode sans rev/gang/shadowling were broken in totality. Unplayable/10.

I think oxyloss is broken too. I tried standing in space for a few second until I started taking damage, got back inside, but I kept taking damage and was unable to talk (thanks to oxyloss). Even if the room had air I kept taking damage until I was in crit, I crawled back to medbay, a doctor tried to help me but I couldn't tell him I needed salbutamol because I was still muted (since I was in crit). Funny thing is, even when out of crit I still couldn't talk until I was back to full health.

why are you all sperging out so goddamn hard? Yes a lot of shit is going to be broken, it is trialed right now. Talking about what specifically needs to be rebalanced or fixed is far more helpful, and these bugs are why we can trial PRs without merging them, I do agree that the hypospray does not really need a nerf, it is pretty unique

This doesn't change the CMO's hypospray (which is /reagent_containers/hypospray/cmo).
It adds a new type of hypospray (/reagent_containers/hypospray/medical), which MDs start with.

Ah okay, that makes more sense

the medical hypospray mentioned is the MD specific one they spawn with, not the CMO's, sorry for any confusion

Grazyn wrote:I think oxyloss is broken too. I tried standing in space for a few second until I started taking damage, got back inside, but I kept taking damage and was unable to talk (thanks to oxyloss). Even if the room had air I kept taking damage until I was in crit, I crawled back to medbay, a doctor tried to help me but I couldn't tell him I needed salbutamol because I was still muted (since I was in crit). Funny thing is, even when out of crit I still couldn't talk until I was back to full health.

Losebreath does a lot more damage now. I should probably add it to the medical scanners now, it was probably going down but not fast enough. The MD should of noticed the rising oxygen loss and dosed you with salbutamol immediately.

Overall, thanks for the feedback guys, I'm registering it all and making the needed changes.

revert

DrPillzRedux wrote:There are consequences for fighting or fucking up now. You need to take some time to get treated by a doctor and not just run to the dorms and use a bruisepack to heal being cut open by a fireaxe.

This makes doc 10x more fun for me personally.

Could have been accomplished with way fewer changes. Crit being sproadic knockout + DoT is fine, just do that alone. Or that + the "oxyloss = mute" change, that one is also potentially interesting. More oxydamage from choking is worth trialing too since I suspect people want that anyway.

I don't think making crit both need medbay to cure and hard to cure is going to result in a fun gameplay experience. You're just going to wind up with shitty doctors killing people and salty patients.

So lemme just go through what you need to do to cure a patient whose in critical condition:
Cure whatever damage originally put them into shock in the first place
Treat the shock
Treat the cardiac failure/other cardiac problems
Treat the brain damage
Treat the oxyloss
Give them a blood transfusion (probably)
Stop any bleeding (possibly)

Sure, you can say "well the medical analyzer tells you exactly what to do", but if there's exactly one solution for all of this, is that really interesting? Is medical made more fun because you have to inject people with salglu before treating them? No, it's not.

I think when we look at big changes recently, Gang stands out as a feature that was designed from the top down to have quality gameplay elements and to be a "Better TDM".

Im optimistic for this change, as I know goof has good intentions as a coder.

Question for Goof,
I'd be keen to hear about your game design reasons is in terms of how this change influences the game. Specific outcomes around dying and treatment aside - what are the underlying principles that these changes are trying to achieve?

Realism would be one, as far as I can tell, and a certain degree of realism is a good thing, since this is science fiction and not fantasy. But how about things like the transparency of the medical system, limitation of resources for the treatment of various injuries and where they might be dispersed, and what advantages a medical doctor gets? How are these changed, and why? What is the impact on the effectiveness of a regular medkit and why?

I mean if you want to copy goonmed and their crit it's simple

Crit starts at 0 combined HP between all damage types
You can speak and move in crit, though you stutter and are really slow as well as randomly drop things in your hands, until -50 damage, where you then gasp instead of talking and you start to randomly move around as if drunk
You also begin randomly passing out at -50 HP
You start taking oxy damage in crit that racks up pretty quickly and roll a chance to get shock and heart failure, with a bigger roll the deeper you go into crit
Blood loss also has a chance to cause shock and heart failure
At -75 HP you get knocked out until death
At -100 HP you die

Oxy damage is what really kills you on goons med.

invisty wrote:I think when we look at big changes recently, Gang stands out as a feature that was designed from the top down to have quality gameplay elements and to be a "Better TDM".

Goof didn't code gang. It was purely designed and coded by absolutely based Ikkarus, who improved the mode from 'unplayable dreck' to 'best, most well-liked gamemode on the server' over a month.

Tweaking a gamemode is totally different from rebalancing the entire fucking game.

DrPillzRedux wrote:I mean if you want to copy goonmed and their crit it's simple

Crit starts at 0 combined HP between all damage types
You can speak and move in crit, though you stutter and are really slow as well as randomly drop things in your hands, until -50 damage, where you then gasp instead of talking and you start to randomly move around as if drunk
You also begin randomly passing out at -50 HP
You start taking oxy damage in crit that racks up pretty quickly and roll a chance to get shock and heart failure, with a bigger roll the deeper you go into crit
Blood loss also has a chance to cause shock and heart failure
At -75 HP you get knocked out until death
At -100 HP you die

Oxy damage is what really kills you on goons med.

Not being able to speak while in crit is extremely important and should stay. All our weapons are balanced around the number of hits needed to put someone in crit, and being able to move in crit is already a massive nerf to antags. If you leave the ability to speak too, it would just fuck up everything.

Amelius wrote:Goof didn't code gang. It was purely designed and coded by absolutely based Ikkarus, who improved the mode from 'unplayable dreck' to 'best, most well-liked gamemode on the server' over a month.

Tweaking a gamemode is totally different from rebalancing the entire fucking game.

I'm not sure why you thought I was saying goof made Gang. I was just using it as an example of good design.

Grazyn wrote:

DrPillzRedux wrote:I mean if you want to copy goonmed and their crit it's simple

Crit starts at 0 combined HP between all damage types
You can speak and move in crit, though you stutter and are really slow as well as randomly drop things in your hands, until -50 damage, where you then gasp instead of talking and you start to randomly move around as if drunk
You also begin randomly passing out at -50 HP
You start taking oxy damage in crit that racks up pretty quickly and roll a chance to get shock and heart failure, with a bigger roll the deeper you go into crit
Blood loss also has a chance to cause shock and heart failure
At -75 HP you get knocked out until death
At -100 HP you die

Oxy damage is what really kills you on goons med.

Not being able to speak while in crit is extremely important and should stay. All our weapons are balanced around the number of hits needed to put someone in crit, and being able to move in crit is already a massive nerf to antags. If you leave the ability to speak too, it would just fuck up everything.

You have to remember that goonmed is balanced around basic shit being able to kill quickly, so the talking doesn't last long.

Also if you can kill someone quickly and effectively, then it's a lot easier to escape before people turn up to save their asses, particularly if there's no AI about: Thus emphasising the value of killing people in the quieter corners of the station.

I think there's some value to retaining the distinction between "Killing him because he was in the way/an easy target" and "Taking out my actual assassination target, permanently".

Honestly the gooncrit system does sound interesting and more involved than drop-dead-critting like we have now, I'm interested in seeing where this is going

invisty wrote:Also if you can kill someone quickly and effectively, then it's a lot easier to escape before people turn up to save their asses, particularly if there's no AI about: Thus emphasising the value of killing people in the quieter corners of the station.

The point is that since it's so easy to revive and clone someone with defibs and upgradeable cloning, even if you manage to kill someone through all this bullshit, it's more difficult and risky for zero extra reward under this system, and also, even if you kill them, they're really difficult to get rid of permanently, or even semi-permanently. Spacing someone results in them hitting another side of the station most of the time, so yeah.

Then since it makes all antag's jobs harder, more rounds will be more uneventful pseudo-extended dreck.

Amelius wrote:

invisty wrote:Also if you can kill someone quickly and effectively, then it's a lot easier to escape before people turn up to save their asses, particularly if there's no AI about: Thus emphasising the value of killing people in the quieter corners of the station.

The point is that since it's so easy to revive and clone someone with defibs and upgradeable cloning, even if you manage to kill someone through all this bullshit, it's more difficult and risky for zero extra reward under this system, and also, even if you kill them, they're really difficult to get rid of permanently, or even semi-permanently. Spacing someone results in them hitting another side of the station most of the time, so yeah.

Then since it makes all antag's jobs harder, more rounds will be more uneventful pseudo-extended dreck.

Comment by goof on github literally 4 posts before one of your comments wrote:I forgot to remove those from the changelog, it still doesn't heal corpses.

You can always just gib them. A Syndicate minibomb is good for this; if you're a changeling, husking them achieves a similar effect (preventing cloning).

Shaps wrote:

Amelius wrote:

invisty wrote:Also if you can kill someone quickly and effectively, then it's a lot easier to escape before people turn up to save their asses, particularly if there's no AI about: Thus emphasising the value of killing people in the quieter corners of the station.

The point is that since it's so easy to revive and clone someone with defibs and upgradeable cloning, even if you manage to kill someone through all this bullshit, it's more difficult and risky for zero extra reward under this system, and also, even if you kill them, they're really difficult to get rid of permanently, or even semi-permanently. Spacing someone results in them hitting another side of the station most of the time, so yeah.

Then since it makes all antag's jobs harder, more rounds will be more uneventful pseudo-extended dreck.

Comment by goof on github literally 4 posts before one of your comments wrote:I forgot to remove those from the changelog, it still doesn't heal corpses.

Still a viable comment, since the proposition is making people much harder to kill/silence/etc, making antag's jobs much harder meaning their overall round impact will be lessened, meaning more pseudo-extended.

Most of this is just moving around heal variables for no reason.

And that's an annoying crit system. Now I have to beat everyone to -200 otherwise they're still waltzing back to the main halls? God help you if you're using anything ammo related. I don't care if the passout part makes a crit person unlikely to move even a tile further. It's really annoying.

I don't like the brain damage death.

I think it would be best to replace it with oxyloss.

Blood also needs to be tweaked. Less RNG and more defined.

Execution is garbage and needs to be redone from scratch with an actual focus on the server instead of a port from somewhere else. Most of these changes are changes for the sake of changing things and don't actually accomplish anything.

callanrockslol wrote:Execution is garbage and needs to be redone from scratch with an actual focus on the server instead of a port from somewhere else. Most of these changes are changes for the sake of changing things and don't actually accomplish anything.

I didn't think 1 spaceman could invoke this many buzzword memes in 1 post.

Shame it's still valid feedback.

Also goof you can you please my question from earlier.

I've had some IRL shit going on and haven't had the chance to sit down and write up an answer yet, sorry

I don't really like the change to sulfonal. It's a niche stealth knockout toxin right now (for those smart enough to experiment and figure out how to make chems stealthy), this just turns it into yet another obvious slow-damage toxin with a chance of a negative effect. Yawn. Guess I'll slip in 5u of that, along with 5u of nine other different toxins.

Painkillers pills are 50u salicyclic acid, which is over the OD threshold again. At a .1 metabolic rate, they don't even need that large a dose.

I'm baffled as to why salglu's numbers keep going up and down. This is what, the fourth time? Wasn't it too strong before? It's weak specifically because it heals two major damage types with no downsides -- no overdose, easy to make in large quantities, just swallow and enjoy your numbers.

iamgoofball wrote:

callanrockslol wrote:Execution is garbage and needs to be redone from scratch with an actual focus on the server instead of a port from somewhere else. Most of these changes are changes for the sake of changing things and don't actually accomplish anything.

I didn't think 1 spaceman could invoke this many buzzword memes in 1 post.

he does have a point though, the system you made while it kinda works on other servers just isn't very compatible here without big changes to combat which nobody wants

I wouldn't mind changes to our combat to be honest, so long as they're sane.