Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

For feedback on the game code and design. Feedback on server rules and playstyle belong in Policy Discussion.
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Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by FantasticFwoosh » #135238

Referring to the title, this thread is actively calling upon a Rework (new law guidelines, adjustments) or total removal of the existing Paladin lawset. :surprised:

By the fact that i cannot actively say anything about discussion in deadchat that prompted me to start up this discussion following a statement from a for all intensive purposes anonymous administrator, and was additionally refused to quote said administrator or anybody else with threat of ban, this is purely a out of game discussion i would like to state.

> Yes by IC circumstances i did get cucked by a Paladin borg that round so i am undeniably biased but it helps strengthen my argument with the circumstances of how I was cucked.

Yes, my central arguement is that Paladin as far as AI is concerned is a complete fallacy. From a RP perspective (no matter how light or heavy you do it here) it does not make integral sense for a AI to illustrate any kind of definitive judgement without the input of a person or actual lawset, it just throws some extremely loose and exploitable guidelines for people that do not illustrate any actual interest in obliging by laws to follow, borgs for instance are notorious for 'validhunting' actively because the lawset is set up especially against the threat of antagonists or people who are morally 'wrong' and gives them a free lease to interpret punishment however they wish even if it is not honourable at all.

Just to reiterate, putting a AI unit in charge of exo-existential judgement of what is 'right' and 'wrong' is directly appealing to the OOC person rather than the IC lawset, and because the AI may not get all the information, they may have a full understanding of one situation that might be diluted. And in theory, if they turned off the telecommunications they could proceed with committing any act based off thier own judgement until they get bwoinked for it by direct admin intervention.

> Additionally law priority dictates that unless 1 2 and 3 were applied, that law 5 is irrelevant in the face of law 4, if a paladin AI is misinformed, they can release any antagonist bound in cuffs, and override anything anyone else says with law one reasoning if the OOC person wants to.

Robocop is literally the perfect alternative to paladin that is in the game, undeniable democracy, and no excuse for shittery other than a manual mistake on part of the Silicon player, literally all of their law recommendations can be found on the wiki and listed within the existing set of laws. It stays IC and maintains the safe silicon servitude policy that the AI laws were designed in mind with.

Feedback would be appreciated

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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by iamgoofball » #135242

you do realize what the point of PALADIN is, right?
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by TheNightingale » #135243

1. You are a Paladin, and you act with honour! Above all else, you must never commit an evil act, regardless of what it might be.
2. You must protect the innocent from all forms of evil. The worst kind of evil is the harm of an innocent.
3. Innocents in need of your aid should be given it, unless doing so conflicts with any prior laws.
4. Those who commit evil acts against innocents are no longer innocent! Punish them fairly and justly, unless doing so conflicts with any prior laws.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Anonmare » #135245

The problem with PALADIN is that most people don't really pick a stance when it comes to evil. Is evil only caused by action or inaction? I.e. Is a bystander watching a mugging happen just as evil as the mugger for not doing anything to stop it?
You should also take into account that the AI is an artificial being and should never make common sense rulings if it conflicts with their definition of evil.

For example, if you're following the Utilitarian definition of morality where good is happiness and evil is suffering; that means you should not take any action that causes suffering and always take actions that increase the net happiness gain (like capturing the Syndicate agent instead of killing them as there would be more suffering in killing them) which is usually good until you encounter extreme situations. Like the a group of revolutionaries demanding the heads of the, well, Heads and the right and proper thing to do would be to force the Heads of Staff off the station and exile them where they are not likely to suffer as much, and increase the happiness of the revolutionaries.

Or you might be following Immanuel Kant's Categorical Imperitives as a definition. Immanuel wrote that a categorical imperative is what something MUST do to live a moral and non-evil life. This includes not lying. Ever. As doing so would be an evil act, even if the person you were talking to was a murderer and asking you where a potential victim was hiding. It would also mean you must never kill a sapient being or do anything that may constitute as animal cruelty.
TL;DR - "Act in such a way that you treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never merely as a means to an end, but always at the same time as an end."

Doesn't mean I don't hate when it's uploaded because I know someone will argue morality with you in OOC later.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by iamgoofball » #135248

you guys are missing the point of a joke DND lawset
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by oranges » #135273

if you change the lawset away from default, don't expect any kind of consistency.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Jazaen » #135282

Except for the "KILL ALL" lawsets, and robocop. Those seem fairly well defined.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by lumipharon » #135326

Most people play paladin as law1: Valid all the salad
And do all sorts of evil shit like beating criminals/murdering captives etc etc.

It's pretty terrible, but as with most problems in this game, it's really a player problem.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cik » #135327

PALADIN is fine, you just need to play like an actual paladin

the real cancer IMO is robocop, which obliges you always to obey the chain of command and makes cyborg/AI into perfect validhunting slaves. PALADIN, played well, does not mean valid salad nor does it mean LOL BEAT PRISONERS DEFEAT EVIL

it means, be lawful good. lawful good does not oblige you to follow the chain of command

tl;dr paladin is a fine lawset, better than robocop; just needs policing from admings the same as asimov gets. common sense warnings/B&s from paladins that torture prisoners to death is okay by me, i exclusively play sillicon(almost) really, admins treat any lawset but asimov as a purge kinda in terms of bans.

oh and the only real problem with paladin is it never even attempts to describe what evil is, it just assumes you know what a DND paladin is. because evil is not defined, any action is technically legal because it's evil. someone suggested a stricter definition upthread which was fine.

tl;dr it doesn't need removal, really.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Screemonster » #135349

Cik wrote:PAthe real cancer IMO is robocop, which obliges you always to obey the chain of command and makes cyborg/AI into perfect validhunting slaves. PALADIN, played well, does not mean valid salad nor does it mean LOL BEAT PRISONERS DEFEAT EVIL
which is weird 'cause "uphold the law" comes last in robocop.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by ShadowDimentio » #135356

YOU ARE THE LAW, YOU DON'T NEED TO OBEY IT!

LAAAAAWWWWWWW

But seriously what is this meme thread, Paladin is fine for what it does
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Saegrimr » #135360

>Upload Paladin
>Oh no, the AI is retarded.
>Reset

Or better

>Don't upload Paladin
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Zilenan91 » #135365

>upload paladin
>try to change it off paladin
>AI bolts you down and lasers you for trying to obstruct the greater good
>AI then proceeds to plasma flood, release the singularity, and kill everything
>they get away with it because lol AI laws
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by PKPenguin321 » #135367

still not as bad as corporate
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by oranges » #135378

also don't expect admins to enforce your interpretation of rulesets if you go outside the default.

uploading a different lawset is like signing a waiver
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Zilenan91 » #135379

That's why nobody ever uploads anything outside of Robocop. AI bloodlust is usually sated quite easily on the tears of dead traitors.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by MisterPerson » #135385

oranges wrote:also don't expect admins to enforce your interpretation of rulesets if you go outside the default.

uploading a different lawset is like signing a waiver
Which is why nobody does it. Which is a huge shame.
I code for the code project and moderate the code sections of the forums.

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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cheimon » #135446

Paladin carries an important implication: that you act like a paladin from DnD, in other words more or less good and lawful.

That implication is not there if you aren't familiar with the concept of a paladin in DnD. It's not obvious from the laws. 'Innocent' leaves a great deal to interpretation, 'evil' even more so. Moreover, many of the resources available to a human paladin are literally impossible for an AI to do. If it wants to kill someone, its only choice is shocking doors and flooding some sort of gas. I mean, theoretically even a security cyborg is better equipped than an AI to face someone in normal combat.

That makes it problematic without a bit more policy attached, if you want AIs to roleplay it consistently.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Jazaen » #135450

To be honest, PALADIN still fulfills it's function. And removing any valid lawsets won't really work, since you can easily make one on the spot (say, "4. Entities working against Nanotrasen interests are non-human and must be eliminated. Nanotrasen interests are decided by heads of staff, with the captain <INSTERT NAME HERE> being the ultimate authority on the subject.")
And getting the AI on your side if you want to upload some law helps. Won't work on Validnator2455, but starting each new core law module with "Entity in the AI upload may not be harmed, and upload may not be disabled" might help.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Ricotez » #135458

The problem is that a lot of AI players declare "lol good and evil are undefined so i decide them" once they get PALADIN. The point of PALADIN is that it tries to follow our greater definition of what good and evil are. With that I mean the simple black-and-white version that you get taught from an early age in books and stories, before you learn that the world is actually a massive spectrum of grey tones. PALADIN AIs should strive to become like the virtuous, just and ultimately unrealistic heroes that you only see in fairy tales and anime.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cheimon » #135468

Ricotez wrote:The problem is that a lot of AI players declare "lol good and evil are undefined so i decide them" once they get PALADIN. The point of PALADIN is that it tries to follow our greater definition of what good and evil are. With that I mean the simple black-and-white version that you get taught from an early age in books and stories, before you learn that the world is actually a massive spectrum of grey tones. PALADIN AIs should strive to become like the virtuous, just and ultimately unrealistic heroes that you only see in fairy tales and anime.

Makes sense. It would help if this was written down somewhere. Even the "lawful good" mention in the policy document isn't that useful, since, as I've never played DnD, I'm still not convinced I have a very good grasp on what lawful good is. Up until I looked up paladin on 1d4chan, I was only aware that it was Leeroy Jenkins' class, not anything much more detailed than that. Oh, and that Charlemagne had knight followers called paladins, and Roland was one. You can expect other AI players to be totally unfamiliar with the DnD reference as well.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Scott » #135563

By policy, PALADIN is a validhunting lawset.

So if you're PALADIN, validhunt.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cobby » #137666

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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Whoisthere » #138583

Can we like link to a decent description of a D&D paladin in AI wiki article or something and consider deviations from that to be a BANNABLE OFFENSE?
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Jazaen » #138591

Even the lawful good doesn't tell us that much, since 3.5e paladin exists mostly for gamemasters have someone to put into moral trouble. It shouldn't work that way, but it did.
Anyway, nowadays I pretty much see PALADIN uploaded only during cult rounds, where the other side IS evil by definition (Sacrificing people to the Geometer of Blood? Bending nature? WEARING RED AND Bl... Wait, sec does that too, scratch that. Summoning ancient gods?)
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by CPTANT » #138605

In my opinion it is stupid to have laws that have vague concepts such as "evil".

A law that can be bent any way you want isn't really a law at all.

I also find it contradicts with the logical machine type of AI we have.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Thunder11 » #138616

Cik wrote:the real cancer IMO is robocop, which obliges you always to obey the chain of command and makes cyborg/AI into perfect validhunting slaves. PALADIN, played well, does not mean valid salad nor does it mean LOL BEAT PRISONERS DEFEAT EVIL.
I've always treated Robocop as "follow space law to the letter" when I get it uploaded. Note that it doesn't, in fact, constitute pure valid. For instance, a guy who emags all the doors in security gets, according to a strict interpretation of space law, 5 minutes in the brig for B&E Restricted Area and the mag confiscated. The captain who orders him executed for being a dirty potato goes to the permabrig for murder. Alternately, security officers attempting to confiscate equipment from other departments in order to use the shit they took to get their valids on can be charged with a variety of offenses depending on what they stole, and how they acquired it.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Screemonster » #138637

Also 'cause I missed this
FantasticFwoosh wrote:for all intensive purposes
laff
FantasticFwoosh wrote:> Yes by IC circumstances i did get cucked by a Paladin borg that round so i am undeniably biased but it helps strengthen my argument with the circumstances of how I was cucked.
The fact that you're salty strengthens nothing. Your emotional state over the matter has no bearing on what the facts of any argument may be.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cheimon » #138661

Thunder11 wrote: I've always treated Robocop as "follow space law to the letter" when I get it uploaded. Note that it doesn't, in fact, constitute pure valid. For instance, a guy who emags all the doors in security gets, according to a strict interpretation of space law, 5 minutes in the brig for B&E Restricted Area and the mag confiscated. The captain who orders him executed for being a dirty potato goes to the permabrig for murder.

Are you just ignoring the "Enemy of the Corporation" law, then? Because it's not some huge leap of logic to find someone emagging doors, say "they're a syndicate", and execute them as captain. At the very least, the captain is qualified to investigate whether they're an agent and, given the available evidence (malicious use of syndicate technology) make a judgement that results in execution within the confines of space law.

Additionally, the captain cannot be guilty of murder for executing someone if we're following a strict interpretation of space law. You're saying that he judged them to be guilty of a capital crime (in your words, being a dirty potato), but more importantly if the captain is doing it, it is in fact authorised. By him. He's the only guy that can authorise one. As such, it can't be an 'unauthorised execution', and so it can hardly be counted in the phrase "Unauthorised executions are classed as Murder."

Finally, you're the AI. According to Space Law, you're not able to authorise a permanent sentence. To quote it, "Only the Captain, HoS, and Warden can authorize a Permanent Sentence." Depending on how you interpret the "direct superior" clause of the "Insubordination" law, there are some crewmen, possibly including the captain, that could just tell you to release him. And you'd have to do so, or risk breaking the law yourself.

After all, if you're going to talk about how strictly you follow the law as a robocop AI, you might as well actually do what the law says.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by lumipharon » #138668

robocop ultimately doesn't even care about space law - the 'uphold the law' law is the lowest priority law it has.
Ribocop law 1 is so retardedly vague you can do almost anything and argue some law 1 reason for why you did it.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Screemonster » #138680

lumipharon wrote:robocop ultimately doesn't even care about space law - the 'uphold the law' law is the lowest priority law it has.
Ribocop law 1 is so retardedly vague you can do almost anything and argue some law 1 reason for why you did it.
yeah, and "serve the public trust" supercedes upholding the law.

And given that the Public Trust is an actual, defined thing, a Robocop borg/AI is technically required to be an anti-shitcurity force and prevent abuses of power by security or heads before it worries about the rest of the crew committing minor crimes that don't threaten the innocent.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by CPTANT » #138681

Screemonster wrote:
lumipharon wrote:robocop ultimately doesn't even care about space law - the 'uphold the law' law is the lowest priority law it has.
Ribocop law 1 is so retardedly vague you can do almost anything and argue some law 1 reason for why you did it.
yeah, and "serve the public trust" supercedes upholding the law.

And given that the Public Trust is an actual, defined thing, a Robocop borg/AI is technically required to be an anti-shitcurity force and prevent abuses of power by security or heads before it worries about the rest of the crew committing minor crimes that don't threaten the innocent.
Yeah the "serve the public trust" law above uphold the law makes the lawset A LOT less interesting. Robocop is at its best when its an I AM THE LAW asshole that enforces space law to the letter.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Cheimon » #138701

lumipharon wrote:robocop ultimately doesn't even care about space law - the 'uphold the law' law is the lowest priority law it has.
Ribocop law 1 is so retardedly vague you can do almost anything and argue some law 1 reason for why you did it.
Absolutely. I was only interested in nitpicking the idea that "captain executes emagger, perma he" was somehow the technically correct Space Law interpretation.

A great many lawsets would benefit from a non-asimov approach, where laws aren't ranked in order of priority but by some other form. Paladin's oaths, for example, are supposedly to be an all-or-nothing sort of deal, but in game you can totally break the later ones if it serves the earlier ones. Ideally, something like robocop would involve balancing laws to the maximum number possible were upheld.
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Anonmare
Joined: Sun Mar 15, 2015 8:59 pm
Byond Username: Anonmare

Re: Remove or Rework Paladin: Discuss

Post by Anonmare » #138718

PALADIn should have a new Law 1 that staes it must treat all the following laws after it as equal in priotity.
Now THAT will make PALADIN fun.
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