NukeOp general gunprice renovation

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:07 am #141718

Post feedback here.
Added to uplink:

Bundles:
C20r bundle - 14 TC.
M90gl bundle - 15 TC.
Bulldog bundle - 16 TC.
Medical bundle - 15 TC.
Sniper bundle - 20 TC.
Chemical bundle - 30 TC.
C20r ammo bundle - 20 TC
Fireteam (c20r, m90gl, 40mm grenade, sniper rifle) ammo bundle - 24 TC.

Items:
Bulldog shotgun - 8 TC.

Price changes (Reductions only):
C20r - 14 to 10 TC.
M90gl - 18 to 12 TC.
Toy C20r - 8 to 5 TC.
Toy L6 SAW - 12 to 10 TC.
Viscerator delivery grenade - 8 to 5 TC.
Dark Gygax exosuit - 90 to 80 TC.

Price changes (Increases only)
Syndicate Cyborg - 50 to 80 TC
C20r magazine - 2 to 3 TC.
Bulldog ammo bag - 10 to 12 TC.
M90gl magazine - 2 to 4 TC.
40mm grenades - 4 to 5 TC.

Added items (NOT PURCHASABLE CONVENTIONALLY).

Spoiler:

I wanted to promote the use of less well known weapons, hence why the bundling of several toys.
The idea is to be able to purchase a weapon, no matter what, without blowing a good amount of TC.

These numbers are based on a 60 player game.

All bundles are price efficient. You will always save TC when purchasing a bundle.

Bundles contain:
C20r bundle
1 C20r smg
2 C20r magazines
1 Cheap suppressor

M90gl bundle
1 M90gl carbine
1 M90gl magazine
1 40mm grenade box
1 Syndicate brand cigattes

Bulldog bundle
1 Bulldog shotgun
1 Bulldog slug drum magazine
1 Bulldog buckshot magazine
1 Elite Gorlex Marauder hardsuit

Medical bundle
1 Syndicate magboot
1 Tactical first aid kit
1 Donksoft L6 SAW
1 Foam dart box

Sniper briefcase
1 Sniper rifle
1 Soporific magazine
1 Haemorrhage magazine
1 Cheap suppressor
1 Tactical turtleneck suit
1 Red tie

Chemical bundle
1 Bioterror chem sprayer
1 Syndicate chemical kit
1 Syndicate Minature syringe gun
1 Donksoft C20r
1 Box of syringes
1 Box of foam darts
1 Bioterror foam grenade

C20r ammo bundle
9 C20r magazines

Fireteam ammo bundle
4 C20r Magazines
2 M90gl magazines
1 40mm grenade magazine
1 Sniper magazine

To do later:
Add PDW.
Add doorbreaching slugs.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/13818

TheNightingale · Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:17 am

I'd suggest swapping one of the four C20r mags in the fireteam ammo bag for a couple of Bulldog drums instead.

Then you could do C20r/M90gl/medical/sniper/bulldog and a fireteam bag for 104TC, leaving 36 (I think?) left for emags, C4 and other essentials.

==140TC==
* C20r bundle (14)
* M90gl bundle (15)
* Medical bundle (15)
* Sniper bundle (20)
* Bulldog bundle (16)
* Fireteam ammo bag (24)
* Emag x5 (30)
* C4 x8 (8)
* Energy dagger (2)

With the two C4 from the shuttle, each Operative can get an emag and two blocks of C4, as well as a bundle kit of their choice and extra ammo.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:18 am #141721

Might want to put in the OP what is in each bundle, but it looks good.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:29 am #141722

80 TC for a borg is just way too insane of a price to ever consider one. There's literally no reason to buy a borg now that snipers are IG - their entire purpose is replaced by a single sniper rifle with one mag of penetrator rounds which is around 15~ TC. EDIT: Plus, you can just buy two reinforcements and arm them with the remaining 30 TC. No emags on them, but it's still MUCH more cost effective than a single borg that dies to a single flashbang.

Don't make ammo any more expensive. There's no reason for it when ops are already well limited by storage space. I mean, in one case you're doubling the price

The bulldog ammo bag is no longer cost efficient at that pricepoint, since it has 5 slugs, 1 taser, 1 fire, the fire one being mostly useless. Compare to buying it directly, which nets you 6 slugs. Given that ops are all about killing people, and the taser doesn't directly add to your firepower, and it's basically 1:1.

What comes in a 'bundle'?

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:32 am #141723

The ammo price increase is offset by the huge price reduction of the guns themselves, not to mention the bundle deals.
You'll only be worse off if you're buying like 8 mags or some shit.

m-90 for example

Old price:
gun = 18
3 mags = 6tc
1 nade box = 4tc
total = 28tc

New price:
bundle (gun, 1 mag, 1 nade box) = 15tc
2 mags = 8tc
total = 23tc

You need to get 6 spare mags total (which is way more ammo then you're realistically going to need) for the old prices to be better.

That's (edit: almost) enough tc saved for an emag - and personally I only get 2 spare mags, which means even better savings.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:36 am #141725

I'll take a look into it tommorow morning.

The shotgun really is a versatile gun, it'd be a shame if nobody uses that versatility.

In addition to that, the shotgun is actually one of the only ways for an Op to access a ranged taser stun.

With the M90gl carbine, I rarely see people purchase more than 1 or 2 additional rounds to the carbine.

Additionally I factored in the price of the magazine. In retrospect an empty C20r actually costs 7 TC. Unless someone was to purchase ammo en-masse, and even so, if the ammo was a concern there can be the already ready PDW addition to offset that.

The borg price was long awaited. The borg should now focus on it's real role of being an assault Cyborg without risk to Syndicate equipment rather than a crutch to kill an AI.

onleavedontatme · Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:38 am

I do buy like 8 spare mags though. Never enough ammo for the grey tide.

I think we could have tweaked the borg numbers instead of taking a sledghammer to it and gone a bit lower than a 60% increase.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:40 am #141728

but another crutch was added to immediately replace it

furthermore, the borg is really pretty bad at assault considering a single flashbang is ggnore, a single flash is ggnore and borgs can't be stunned and are resistant to being shot.

likewise even a roboticist can ggnore you if they get a little lucky.

you seem personally offended that something can kill the AI which is a little weird, i play AI and i don't care.

why does it matter if it's the syndiborg that does the job? kor added an uncounterable sniper rifle which is cheaper and effectively can't be interfered with

is that okay? your whole mentality confuses me. please lay out why the ability to kill the AI that will basically fuck the ops over a thousand times is a bad thing

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:42 am #141729

Buy the c-20r ammo bag, then just stam stun nerds and apply flamethrower.
Enjoy escaping fire while slower then a snail.

Also the pr adding meteor shot light will make the bulldog way more useful, and gives a viable way to deal with AI shittery other then round start killing it.

Edit: Now that you can get suppressors for the c-20r free, I can finally go full tacticool, powersink the station and go in with suppressed guns and nvgs.

TheNightingale · Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:48 am

Ops get 140TC, right? How about 70 for Assault borgs and 50 for Medical? Syndie Mediborgs are fun,

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 1:59 am #141733

They're classed as the same item currently.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:17 am #141734

The change is nice and all but until the bulldog is removed as free standard issue then this is all a moot point.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:20 am #141735

Steelpoint wrote:The change is nice and all but until the bulldog is removed as free standard issue then this is all a moot point.

Pretty much. OP said he was going to do something about that though.

Also as I mentioned in the pr, with the tc reduction of the gygax, on high pop rounds, you'll be able to deploy double gygaxes. If you use the war button... oh lawd, mech wars time.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 2:20 am #141736

Afaik it should be out of the shuttle. Or it better be.

Post by **MMMiracles** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 3:26 am #141752

lumipharon wrote:
Steelpoint wrote:The change is nice and all but until the bulldog is removed as free standard issue then this is all a moot point.
Pretty much. OP said he was going to do something about that though.

Also as I mentioned in the pr, with the tc reduction of the gygax, on high pop rounds, you'll be able to deploy double gygaxes. If you use the war button... oh lawd, mech wars time.

5-man mech squad the DREAM.

Drynwyn · Post by **Drynwyn** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:13 am #141757

Cik wrote:but another crutch was added to immediately replace it

furthermore, the borg is really pretty bad at assault considering a single flashbang is ggnore, a single flash is ggnore and borgs can't be stunned and are resistant to being shot.

likewise even a roboticist can ggnore you if they get a little lucky.

you seem personally offended that something can kill the AI which is a little weird, i play AI and i don't care.

why does it matter if it's the syndiborg that does the job? kor added an uncounterable sniper rifle which is cheaper and effectively can't be interfered with

is that okay? your whole mentality confuses me. please lay out why the ability to kill the AI that will basically fuck the ops over a thousand times is a bad thing

As a frequent AI player, I find being abruptly removed from the round with no ability whatsoever to prevent this from happening to be incredibly frustrating. I'm fine with losing sometimes, that's part of the game. I'm not fine with every nuke round being an instant ggnore for me that cannot possibly be stopped regardless of preparedness or precautions. At that point, why not just put a "instantly kill the AI" button in the operative uplink?

That said, thermals + sniper rifle + penetrator rounds = a hell of a fun time, so I'm okay with penetrator rounds existing, but perhaps the should only be able to penetrate 1 wall rather than an unlimited number.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 4:17 am #141758

It's all on AI power, the AI has the highest capacity among any role to fuck the Ops 6 ways from Sunday, so there needs to either be a lot of ways to easily kill it, or the AIs power reduced.

Incomptinence · Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:01 am

Or you could I dunno buff the ops.

Refund the default guns into the TC they get there guns are completive with each other.

Honestly there is no reason not to make nuke ops shop your own team they start off Z in perfect safety. I was totally serious when I suggested space suits optional.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:02 am #141768

Drynwyn wrote:but perhaps the should only be able to penetrate 1 wall rather than an unlimited number.

The point is that it's a significant TC investment for the sniper rifle, and the penetrator rounds themselves are by no means cheap enough to spam.

They would hardly be worth it if they could only penetrate one wall, given how many walls there are on the station and how few bullets you actually get. It's like 5 TC or something crazy a mag, and you get only a few shots.

Incomptinence wrote:Honestly there is no reason not to make nuke ops shop your own team they start off Z in perfect safety. I was totally serious when I suggested space suits optional.

This would be cool. Give every operative however much TC it costs to buy an op hardsuit (8 I think) and then it actually becomes a viable option upgrading to a better hardsuit, since it's just a small additional cost on top of what you'd already pay. Remove all the hardsuits from the shuttle except a single basic syndie hardsuit. Remove the free bulldogs/primary weapon, give them enough TC to get an average gun (C-20R works) and a single mag in exchange. It's important that all these TCs go onto the individual uplinks instead of the pool though. This also means you can actually have weapon diversity without fucking your TC pool for no reason.

Honestly, cost-wise it should be traitor hardsuit -> op hardsuit -> elite -> shielded.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:07 am #141775

I'm thinking off topic it would be amusing to remove the starting Nuke Op hard suits and instead tie in Op hardsuits with the gun bundles, with each armour having a unique visual appearance based on the weapon bundle. Thus someone using the stock C20r would maintain the standard apperance, someone using the Chemical appearance would have a more chemical warfare looking helmet, etc.

In addition this means that its viable to buy a upgraded Hardsuit since your stock Hardsuit comes free in the bundle.

Incomptinence · Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:21 am

Amelius wrote:Honestly, cost-wise it should be traitor hardsuit -> op hardsuit -> elite -> shielded.

Yeah with mechs basically being the extreme of that since they are you know space proof to begin with.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:38 am #141783

As a frequent AI player, I find being abruptly removed from the round with no ability whatsoever to prevent this from happening to be incredibly frustrating. I'm fine with losing sometimes, that's part of the game. I'm not fine with every nuke round being an instant ggnore for me that cannot possibly be stopped regardless of preparedness or precautions. At that point, why not just put a "instantly kill the AI" button in the operative uplink?

That said, thermals + sniper rifle + penetrator rounds = a hell of a fun time, so I'm okay with penetrator rounds existing, but perhaps the should only be able to penetrate 1 wall rather than an unlimited number.

obviously i empathize but literally nothing has changed. if you detect the syndiborg really early you can actually counter it, whereas the sniper rifle can ggnore you through like half the fucking map and you can't do jack about it.

it's actually gotten worse hasn't it

i don't understand how people have problems with the syndiborg but not the phase sniper

confusing

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 9:41 am #141784

Because the only real problem is the AI being OP as fuck against ops to the point that they NEED hard counters like this.
Syndie borg being too cheap is another thing altogether.

Incomptinence · Mon Dec 21, 2015 10:06 am

I really am not quite sure ops have no recourse against AI.

I mean c4 isn't perfect but it is cheap now and quick use of the of the emag while it can be hard countered can just stuff things up too quickly for the AI to meaningfully react if it is by surprise and since they are untraceable by default it normally is. Mechs while gaining a ton from crowbar support can still punch through regular walls right?

A rapid C4 device that regens C4 charges as a reasonable speed at a decent price could just cap off the station wrecking aspect that effects the AIs potency and they have access to EMP kit but maybe a pure emp grenade pack or reusable emp device could help in screwing with the cameras. A refinement of traitor anti AI gear could serve a similar purpose instead of designing the AI to basically be deleted. Syndiborg was probably a mistake at its previous cost made people spoiled on this aspect of nuke.

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 12:27 pm #141808

The AI has more doors to bolt then you will have c4 (unless you just have 100 c4 and no guns).
10 seconds+ per door while you're trying to get the disk utterly cucks ops.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:04 pm #141865

yeah theoretically you can get through the doors or walls or whatever but consider the likely scenario

captain+bodyguard leaves to the other end of the station (and they know your position because the AI / borgs are harrying you)

validsquad+security converges on your position

you pause at every airlock on the way there, waiting 10 seconds at every single one, all the while having to travel through firelocks that the AI is constantly shutting in front of you and behind you.

meanwhile the captain has total freedom of movement. once you start to succumb to the attrition of constantly having spears thrown in your general direction, captain + bodyguard closes and destroys you.

ops live and die by a blitzkrieg strategy, you need to move in a straight a line as possible directly to your target, kill it and then head as straight as possible back to the exit. if you ever stop you're likely to get encircled and then you're going to get fucked.

the only exception is if you are in lowpop or there is no sec for whatever reason, then you can probably go as slow as you like but that's more a problem with ops not scaling to population.

c4 in it's current state is a complete non-starter as the backbone of op's access strategy.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:20 pm #141866

>cheap suppressor

What's the difference to a normal one, again?

TheNightingale · Mon Dec 21, 2015 5:47 pm

The cheap suppressor was made in Space China, and they misspelled the "Syndicate" marking on the side ("Syndaicte"). They have the same function, though.

Incomptinence · Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:30 pm

Do we really need to speed up c4 for you people sheesh.

There are two areas the AI has low control maint and space C4 at all sorts of places can break back into them. 2 bitz of C4 beat a main bolt down of an entire quadrant of tunnels etc, yeah it is a risky bottleneck but hey you could go back into space at any time too.

Killing the AI should be an option not a prerequisite crutch, just like going head on with sec to begin with in an open battle at brig to kill them is an option but you don't expect it to always work guaranteed on a silver platter.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:31 pm #141889

Killing the AI is NOT an option. Captain hides in the bridge, two sets of bolted depowered doors on each side, blast doors, rwalls everywhere, as well as the crew which is likely walking in the hallways around there. There is absolutely no way for Ops to deal with AI bolting without it being killed.

TheNightingale · Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:35 pm

What if operatives could buy an "elite emag" that unbolts and opens doors? Problem solved; operatives can now ignore the AI rather than killing or subverting it.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:46 pm #141894

HG tried to code this but it got shot down.

ShadowDimentio · Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:48 pm

It would leave the AI without shit to do

Which would suck

CPTANT · Post by **CPTANT** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 7:56 pm #141898

Why all these bundles? Can't we just balance the costs first without throwing in all sorts of combinations?

TheNightingale · Mon Dec 21, 2015 8:02 pm

The bundles are so we can have TF2... IN SPACE!

Post by **lumipharon** » Mon Dec 21, 2015 11:54 pm #141938

Door breach rounds are literally in a pr as we speak. Once they're available for the bulldog then that's a non 'kill the AI' solution to bolted doors everywhere.

TheNightingale · Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:04 am

The fun thing about door-breaching rounds is that they don't actually work on all doors (if they're like meteorshot).

They push the door away from you. In sets of double doors like the Bridge...
(X is a wall, || is empty space, {} is a door)

X || X
{} || {}
X || X

Turns into...

X || X
|| {} {}
X || X

If you push the door into another door, have fun getting through. (You could stand north or south of the first door and shoot it away, then shoot the last door, I suppose, but that lets you be crushed in the blast shutters.)

What if they deleted or force-opened doors they hit, rather than pushing them away?

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:07 am #141940

afaik, it makes the doors non anchored after hitting them, so you can just drag them out if they get stuck like that.

Can't guarantee this is correct, but I'm 99% sure this is how meteor shot works.

TheNightingale · Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:18 am

Okay, that's pretty good. It makes them a good barricade during combat too - drag an unanchored door behind you to stop bullets (and lasers, if it doesn't have glass). The Bulldog makes a great utility/all-purpose gun - high-damage slugs for targeted attacks (e.g. shooting down the HoS), buckshot for close-quarters combat, dragonsbreath for area denial, bioterror for efficient assassinations (bioterror shells exist, right?), taser shells for stuns, and breachers for access.

Also, fun fact - if you can get an operative's Bulldog, you probably don't have time to swap the pin out - but unload it and keep the ammo drum. You can use it on riot and combat shotguns to quickly reload them without juggling shells (one click = one shell transferred from the drum to the shotgun).

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 12:21 am #141945

I managed to repin a SAW with a loyalty pin once. That's what ops get for being slow fucks.

Edit: Shaps says that meteor shot doesn't unanchor airlocks, but that's not a big deal honestly, since as you said, it only effects a very small number of airlocks.
Edit2: After some testing in the thunderdome, meteorshot gets cockblocked if you put anything behind the airlock (locker, a person etc etc).

To make this viable, it either needs to unanchor the airlock, or simply make it destroy/wreck the airlock, since as it is, it's super counterable.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:34 am #142031

lumipharon wrote:or simply make it destroy/wreck the airlock, since as it is, it's super counterable.

This is what it needs to do. It would be unwieldy and not an alternative to raping the AI if you couldn't just shoot and go.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:42 am #142054

So you want to kill the AI? You're a solo nuke op? You will need:

* Energy Shield

* Two bricks of C4.

* A weapon.

* Optionally, magboots, tools and an emag.

Head to the southern half of the AI satellite. Smash or tool your way through the grille and maintenance corridor. C4 into the core chamber, twice if you picked the wrong wall. With energy shield up (helpfully blocking taser/laser shots), smash open the glass or emag the windoor. Then, walk up to the AI and kill it. Magboots may be useful if it's activated its foam in time, but it probably didn't.

In the event of energy shields not working for this, a double-esword will be fine.

TheNightingale · Tue Dec 22, 2015 11:50 am

Operatives get a free intelliCard in their shuttle. If you're in the core as an operative and you're not in imminent danger, card it instead for style points.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:35 pm #142082

Ok, what if ammo was just freely available at the base, like, you could stuff your pockets full with whatever you want?

TheNightingale · Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:37 pm

It'd work on Bay, but they have rules against gunning down the entire station. We don't, so the ops would just gear up with bags of ammo and shoot everyone within a ten-mile radius.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 2:43 pm #142085

Is that really as bad as it seems?

Ammo is really cheap as is and from people I talk too the biggest killer of Ops is usually running out of ammo.

Swapping to this Box gun system but making ammo free might be a interesting change.

It'll be easy to revert so eh give it a shot.

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 3:43 pm #142089

Apparently ops had ~10 tc shaved off their pool because of a bug.

Is this true? if so, I'm more inclined to add in a 10 tc uplink to compensate and to facilitate purchase of weapons.

If people are a all that against the complete removal of the bulldog, how about removal of four. That way there is a free shotgun for special purposes (door breaching, taser slugs, fire slugs).

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:09 pm #142154

TheNightingale wrote:It'd work on Bay, but they have rules against gunning down the entire station. We don't, so the ops would just gear up with bags of ammo and shoot everyone within a ten-mile radius.

Yeah, but when you think about it..
When it's nuke, the round revolves around one thing, blowing up the station.
The nuke team is typically zerged by everyone on the station. If a crewmember doesnt want to get gunned down, they just stay in their workplace or run away when they see an op.
What if the nuke team spends their time going around the station gunning down everyone? Their focus should be on the nuke disk, so if they are wasting their time killing assistant #6341 and botanist #41, they are giving the people guarding the disk more time to prepare.
And if they succeed, everyone dies anyway.
Increasing the "guns blazing" factor would be thematic.

Post by **lumipharon** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 4:03 am #142257

Because if ops can have unlimited access to ammo, they WILL carry 50975 mags of ammo, then they can just walk down the corridors spamming non stop because they literally can't run out.
Trying to beat the metal storm ain't fun yo.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 8:05 am #142301

lumipharon wrote:Because if ops can have unlimited access to ammo, they WILL carry 50975 mags of ammo, then they can just walk down the corridors spamming non stop because they literally can't run out.
Trying to beat the metal storm ain't fun yo.

Well, that's a possible issue.