Traitor AI is incredibly balanced

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:02 am #141975

The functions of a technical team antag, full vision over the entire station, the ability to lock down and use the doors of the entire station, the ability to flood plasma that will kill the entire station, the ability to spawn armies of sentient machines that kill the entire station, their ability to make explosions on every machine on the station, including light bulbs that make holes in the floor, and the ability to nuke the station and instantly end the round are abilities that are incredibly balanced and can totally be countered or fought against in any way yepyepyep

It really needs some nerfs. Traitor AI was already insane before and this is honestly ridiculous.

kevinz000 · Post by **kevinz000** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:03 am #141976

Git gud.
All I can say - Mekhi the traitor malf who caused this

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:04 am #141977

I wasn't even playing that round and man that was gross, it's next-level power creep because the malf can work together with other traitors to basically hand them godmode and the entire armory.
Or they can become a team antag and build an auto borger and kill the station in other ways
It can too much in general, it's overpowered.

Gun Hog · Post by **Gun Hog** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:06 am #141979

Well, I am sure it has nothing to do with putting an antagonist designed to be in a round on its own inside an already chaotic roundtype with other powerful antagonists...

I told Kor that it would need significant nerfs in order to be in such a situation, and that is why I was against it. A Malf AI is too powerful to be added to Traitor. I warned about this. Several times. I was dismissed.

I did not want Malf to be removed, because I knew it would need heavy nerfs in order to fit in with another roundtype. Of course, if this was Kor's end goal, to remove Malf without too much player resistance, he is succeeding.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:10 am #141980

>its borgs can't be emagged
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AIs not stealth bolting and depowering their doors
>AI can make light bulbs explode to breach floors
>AI can make 8 machines come to life for every 3 hacks that will 1v1 a person with anything less than a spear and the machines can knock people down
>can make auto borgers to become a team antag with none of the downsides since it can hack its borgs and have a laser spewing army and all of the benefits from before
>can also hand traitors the entirety of the armory to make them instantly win at space

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:13 am #141981

>ais are immobile
>ais require cameras to see
>borgs can be flashed to be stunned
>there's an armory full of fun anti-enemy gear like lasers and ion rifles
>can also get fucked over by other traitors
>you can patch broken flooring

fuck i can't be arsed to do anything about that durn rogue ai someone nerf it

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:19 am #141982

Oh man borgs can be flashed to stun, you can turn flashes into bombs, and you can also hand the entire army to traitors while sec is distracted so that's out of the picture, you can move your core I guess but that hardly matters when you're so heavily defended, and yeah you can patch broken flooring but when the AI can do four of these for every three hacks you're gonna run out of atmos eventually.

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:32 am #141984

security doesn't even have to kill the borgs

the borgs' achilles heel is commonly available to civillians (or, once again, any idiot with a toolbox)

there's a fucking console you can use to insta-kill borgs at the first sign of trouble

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:34 am #141985

The AI can make the console come alive, and when it dies, it dissapears completely.

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:01 am

when the AI is retarded it will die to borg blowing console etc
if the AI has at least half a brain it can counter most attacks on it provided it has borgs
an AI that's smart counters attacks on its borgs and has the borgs help it

basically it's a role with a high skill ceiling that, when played right, pretty much can't fail short of the borgs being retarded or RNG like the singulo flying into it

scream "git gud" all you want, as long as the AI is better than you you pretty much can't beat it since an AI at max potential outclasses a human at max potential

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:07 am #141991

That's only talking about the AI alone. When the AI is working with traitors, which it will, since it has syndi radio, it'll give them the entire armory and then just end the round because how is sec gonna stop dudes with the entire armory fucking them on top of the AI doing everything to fuck them.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:17 am #141995

Traitor AI by itself isn't really that good to be honest. Most of your options involve plasma flood and boltshock every door on the station, and you are incredibly reliant on cyborgs or other traitors if those options don't kill your target. Sure, it'll kill some people, but the entire crew will be out to lynch you and it's very, very easy to deal with traitor AIs with a full toolbelt. Once the crew knows an AI is bad they'll usually all stop whatever they're doing to work against it, so you're a very big target.

That said it can get very powerful if you let it, but the more powerful you get the more likely it is you'll be lynched. And you can't do much against one guy with a toolbelt hacking into your core unless you've got borgs, and borgs are easy to blow.

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:18 am

Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.

A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.

If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.

A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:26 am

Kor wrote:Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.

A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.

If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.

A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.

this is a good point on the surface, but then you realize that it basically means that the odds for a malf round have gone from minuscule to almost as high as traitor

ShadowDimentio · Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:30 am

It's like antag AIs were so strong that they were put in their own round for a reason???

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:32 am #142003

Can they shunt?

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:47 am

honestly we should just remove malf powers entirely, malf is kinda horribly shit

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:48 am

ShadowDimentio wrote:It's like antag AIs were so strong that they were put in their own round for a reason???

>so strong
>30% winrate in malf

leibniz wrote:Can they shunt?

If they buy shunt

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Kor wrote:Nah my new end goal is to tell peoe to suck it up and realize that sometimes you're not the star of the show, even as antag.

A malfunctioning AI is and always will be a station ending threat. I will try to balance it as best I can to be fait with its new mechanics, but the rounds in which malf AIs spawn will be Malf+traitors, not Traitors with malf side antags.

If you think the upset about " a stronger antag in my round type!" Is bad now, wait till datum antags.

A traitor could just as easily work with the new AI as spawn 3 bricks of C4 and destroy the core while fighting off borgd with an EMP implant.
this is a good point on the surface, but then you realize that it basically means that the odds for a malf round have gone from minuscule to almost as high as traitor

There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.

Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:51 am

Kor wrote:There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.

you've got a good point, and im probably wrong
actually now i'm curious, does anybody know the gamemode odds before malf was removed

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:51 am #142015

So it's okay to let an antag be so strong that it literally cannot be countered unless you powergame or metagame seriously hardcore?

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:55 am

PKPenguin321 wrote:
Kor wrote:There is in no way a traitor AI almost every traitor round.
you've got a good point, and im probably wrong
actually now i'm curious, does anybody know the gamemode odds before malf was removed

Its been hovering around 5%-7% for the last year, the value has shifted as I add and remove modes from the rotation

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:29 am #142020

Zilenan91 wrote:So it's okay to let an antag be so strong that it literally cannot be countered unless you git gud or man up seriously hardcore?

FTFY

IcePacks · Post by **IcePacks** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:32 am #142022

PKPenguin321 wrote: if the AI has at least half a brain it can counter most attacks on it provided it has borgs

the big issue here, the reason that an ai will always be inferior to a human, is that this is simply not true

the ai is physically incapable of doing anything and therefore operates through machinery, literally all of which can be hacked or disabled in some way so that it can't be used by the ai unless it is reconfigured

borgs are hardly better, and there's an exciting variety of ways to permanently fuck up borgs as well, including the removal of their chargers

the limit for the ai's ability to fuck the crew over is placed by the crew, and if the crew sets a tight limit it can't run off into a maint shaft, erect a wall, and wait out the heat; it has a set list of locations it can hide in and the crew can find them all

Post by **lumipharon** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 6:34 am #142023

Friendly reminder that malf AI's can forcefully, and remotely take possession of any mech on the map.

Amelius · Post by **Amelius** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:29 am #142028

The only thing I don't like about tatormalf is having un-emaggable borgs with no feedback.

Malf AIs are easy to take down solo if you have a single pair of insuls, a flash, and a full suite of tools. Bonus points for a projectile weapon, c4, thermite, ion rifle, RPD (either kind), core access, EMP implant, laser gun, double-esword, a space suit, an emag, etc. You only really need one 'bonus' item to easily knock a malf AI core. The trick is the shunting, which is a pain in the ass in a mode where the Captain is more than likely dead by the time the AI deltas. I'm more fond of classic malf instead of traitor-malf since traitor gear makes killing the AI effortless (which traitors will, since the wincondition for the malf AI ends the round and redtexts you, not many antags will willingly end their round like that), excluding the inevitable easter-egg APC hunt that you're reliant on one item to track down.

There's no real reason to hack APCs either, since the delta timer is a flat 450, you're better off preparing yourself normally with plasmaflooding and so forth, and not hacking a single APC and risking a tip-off until it's too late.

Oh yeah, the AI delta timer was missing last I played. I don't like it in tator, since it should still be the focus, and traitor gear innately fucks malf AIs up the ass. They're inherently incompatible modes.

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:50 am

>emag proof borgs

Changed months ago, applied to both malf and traitors already

>no reason to hack

You need to hack at least some apcs to buy a nuke, and you wont have any other powers if you hack the bare minimum for that

>delta timer missing

Not missing, changed to announce periodically for code reasons.

>nuke redtexts traitors

Actually they count as winning so long as they survive the blast somehow

>traitor gear fucks AIs

Yep. Thats why I believe its gonna be too weak if anything, not too strong

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:01 am #142033

Maybe give antags a big red announcement that says "you greentext iif you GTFO before the nuke blows" as soon as it hits Delta.
Fluff it as IC update from their superiors.

Post by **Thunder11** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:42 am #142034

Kor wrote:>traitor gear fucks AIs

Yep. Thats why I believe its gonna be too weak if anything, not too strong

This. My experience of traitor+malf so far has been the traitor CE waltzing into the core with an RCD the moment it went delta and killing the AI single handedly.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 8:44 am #142035

That's why you don't go delta, you hand the entirety of the armory to a traitor, then poop on everyone else with lightbulb explosions, borgs, and plasma floods.

Yakumo_Chen · Post by **Yakumo_Chen** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:17 am #142040

Gee I'm sure that logic was totally sound when the 30% winrate malf was a mode on it's own.

NOW you have TRAITORS in your malf round who could easily work against you and kill you singlehandedly!

Just because traitors exist doesn't mean they have to cooperate, and just because the AI can bolt the Armoury open doesn't mean security is going to allow any dumbshit to just walk in there and loot it.

Oldman Robustin · Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:16 pm

I called this before it was even merged.

Traitor mode without tater AI = Traitors are systematically valid hunted with AI communicating almost exclusively on Sec Channel.

Traitor mode with tater AI = Traitor ezmode enabled, once comms are cut and AI goes loud you can pretty much do anything you want without fear of reprisal.

I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here, I just hate how this game has become so centrally focused on the AI player.

Also friendly reminder that every traitor should buy a syndicate key. Syndie radio lets you communicate with traitor AI's last I tried it. Super cheap way to get "binary" access and communicate/cooperate with the AI in secret and even once comms are down.

A couple traitors + traitor AI all chatting in syndie radio is almost unstoppable if they work together.

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 4:59 pm

>I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here
>I called this before it was even merged.

Two statements seema bit contradictory. Everything you listed was just as possible before these changes.

AI being the lynchpin of most rounds is an entirely different discussion.

And syndie headsets are way too cheap for an antag balanced around being solo, especially since it works without comms.

Incoming · Post by **Incoming** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:04 pm #142110

The difference between this implementation of traitor malf and the one I [had/have] in my head is that this malf is syndicate aligned. The way I [was/am/will be] looking at it most, if not all, traitors wouldn't be pals with a malf AI.

That's where the real balancing trouble is. "Fighting the station with the help of the other antags", "Fighting the station while the other antags do their thing", and "Fighting the station AND the other antags" are all very different fights. I always thought malfs would be pretty standoffish in terms of other antags, since its victory condition tends to cause a lot of redtext.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:04 pm #142111

It is, the AI and traitors steamrolled everyone with there being absolutely nothing they could do unless they were intentionally trying to be a metagaming shitter.

onleavedontatme · Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:11 pm

Incoming wrote:The difference between this implementation of traitor malf and the one I [had/have] in my head is that this malf is syndicate aligned. The way I [was/am/will be] looking at it most, if not all, traitors wouldn't be pals with a malf AI.

That's where the real balancing trouble is. "Fighting the station with the help of the other antags", "Fighting the station while the other antags do their thing", and "Fighting the station AND the other antags" are all very different fights. I always thought malfs would be pretty standoffish in terms of other antags, since its victory condition tends to cause a lot of redtext.

They are different fronts, and all of them are very possible based on what the players in the round choose to do. I think its a feature, not a bug, that there are multiple viable ways for each party to act and for the round to play out.

As to "redtexting everyone" a lot of the initial resitance to the PR was about that, though I don't think it'd be a bad thing if its delta condition was made more hostile to other traitors.

Or maybe it should lose the syndie headset.

Zilenan91 · Post by **Zilenan91** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 5:12 pm #142113

The syndi headset should probably go, there's entirely too much cheese with how powerful the AI is working together with other traitors. Also can you do something about lightbulb explosions that make hull breaches

Oldman Robustin · Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:06 pm

Kor wrote:>I don't care about malf being gone or the other mechanics implicated here
>I called this before it was even merged.

Two statements seema bit contradictory. Everything you listed was just as possible before these changes.

AI being the lynchpin of most rounds is an entirely different discussion.

And syndie headsets are way too cheap for an antag balanced around being solo, especially since it works without comms.

"I hate malf and I think its easily the worst mode.

But giving malf shit to traitor AI's is going too far..."

That was the beginning of my comment from 7 days ago. It sums up my feelings quite nicely. I'm not sad malf is gone, it was a shit mode, but this just reinforces the AI's influence on traitor rounds and builds up the dichotomy of "AI robocop, murders all the traitors, 95% survival rate ezmode security" versus "AI law 0, murders all the security and cuts comms, 5% survival rate ezmode traitors".

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:17 pm #142141

Don't we have early launching escape pods now? Why can't we have traitors do their objective, wait 'til the AI goes Delta and get the hell out of dodge.
You could change it so that surviving the nuke count as an escape/hijack. Getting nuked shouldn't count as an escape in my opinion. That way, Traitors may have an incentive to not get in the AI's way or the AI may be getting in *their* way and will help the crew take it down.

This is all ignoring Double Agents of course who might have a stronger incentive to kill the AI (I.E. Being their target) than to let it detonate.

Personally I'd like to encourage some more backstabbing between Traitors. Maybe the ability to hack each other's Uplinks and steal their TCs for one.

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 7:53 pm #142150

Surviving the nuke already counts, I think.

Helios · Post by **Helios** » Tue Dec 22, 2015 9:16 pm #142168

Kor wrote:>emag proof borgs

Changed months ago, applied to both malf and traitors already

That's not true.
I emagged the borg, the AI didn't hack it back.
It killed me. It didn't have the emag law set, it had the Asimov+Law 0 lawset.

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 12:54 am #142209

Yes, although I think I was that borg, and another borg you emagged killed me for it, said in deadchat later he had been hacked by you.

onleavedontatme · Wed Dec 23, 2015 7:40 am

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10830

>thats not true
>literally 5 months ago

Cheimon · Post by **Cheimon** » Wed Dec 23, 2015 11:36 am #142325

Ah, well I should have adminhelped it. I wasn't stating it as a certainty, just what the player said in deadchat afterwards.