Paranoia on a deathtrap

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drunkas
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Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by drunkas » #151626

Where'd it go?

What's the easiest way of bringing it back?
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151632

What's there to be afraid of when you're all but guaranteed to either get revived, or return to the round in another role with 15 minutes? And even if you don't, the rounds are rarely ever over an hour anymore.

You have to have something to lose to be afraid.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by kevinz000 » #151634

Lumi I'm afraid of losing the BoH of things I have on me
Can't have assistants rampaging with my stuff now can we
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by PKPenguin321 » #151636

drunkas wrote:Where'd it go?

What's the easiest way of bringing it back?
buff the everloving fuck out of antags, especially the stealthy shit
make it so at any moment a traitor could just out and drop you dead in a second flat
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Helios
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Helios » #151639

PKPenguin321 wrote:
drunkas wrote:Where'd it go?

What's the easiest way of bringing it back?
buff the everloving fuck out of antags, especially the stealthy shit
make it so at any moment a traitor could just out and drop you dead in a second flat
They can
with a revolver
nobody buys it
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by leibniz » #151641

Why was the ebow nerfed?
It costs like half your TCs and it is inferior to the fucking basic tasers sec officers have.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by PKPenguin321 » #151643

Helios wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:
drunkas wrote:Where'd it go?

What's the easiest way of bringing it back?
buff the everloving fuck out of antags, especially the stealthy shit
make it so at any moment a traitor could just out and drop you dead in a second flat
They can
with a revolver
nobody buys it
>7 bullets
>almost all your TCs
buff it. make them way cheaper again. make them come with spare ammo and make additional ammo come in boxes and only cost 1 TC.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by PKPenguin321 » #151644

leibniz wrote:Why was the ebow nerfed?
It costs like half your TCs and it is inferior to the fucking basic tasers sec officers have.
paprika actually did this IIRC, he had the genius idea of making it a child of kinetic accelerators because he's a madman
we could probably revert it now that he's gone tbh

sorry for the double post i was just too lazy to copy-paste a quote block to make both responses in the same quote
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i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Screemonster
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Screemonster » #151648

lumipharon wrote:What's there to be afraid of when you're all but guaranteed to either get revived, or return to the round in another role with 15 minutes? And even if you don't, the rounds are rarely ever over an hour anymore.

You have to have something to lose to be afraid.
Tension and paranoia take time.
Jumping at every shadow expecting an attack that may never come is something you're not gonna get when people get bored and call the shuttle after 20 minutes.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by DemonFiren » #151655

PK has it right. Make revolver ammo cheaper, revert the ebow to glory.
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bandit
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by bandit » #151676

This is honestly less about traitor items and more about items findable on the station. So many things have been nerfed that as a result there is almost no PvE.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Shaps-cloud » #151677

You could give traitors an instagib gun that would make them 100x more lethal and dangerous and it wouldn't make the game more tense and paranoia filled, just more frustrating when you get dropped out of nowhere

Honestly my paranoia reaches its peak during early conversion rounds when I'm trying not to get gang'd or flashed so that I'm not obligated to help a gang/rev, but I don't think that's the kind of paranoia you're looking for
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Gun Hog » #151679

Your muscles painfully tighten!

:pen: :c4: GG

Both are nerfed/removed.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Lumbermancer » #151687

Less team modes. More traitor. More changeling. Less traitor and changeling items/skill for killing, more for subterfuge and messing up with things.

I mean yesterday when I played it was rev-ops-rev-ops in a row or something like that. That doesn't help the round longevity and thus creation of any tension.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by imblyings » #151691

The logical conclusions I'm seeing are that murderboners become more frequent because the tools make it easier and that 'powergaming' by non-antags increases in response because no one likes having their fun stopped by someone else.

If you want to instil paranoia, you restrict what antags can do, which makes it more reasonable for non-antags to be told that they can't do certain things, which makes life easier for antags to try out different plans, which gives non-antags and antags alike the opportunity to cooperate in making a round filled with 'paranoia' and 'tension' because really it's all make-believe pretending and everyone has to play along.

Yeah you could re-introduce things like parapen c4 or parastings but what this means is I make sure to stay on disarm intent, keep cover between me and others, walk out of a place rather than be alone with someone, talk less, arm myself at the start of the round, hover my mouse over people, scan sprites for innocuous little pen pixels and the like. Which is a flavour of paranoia really but maybe not the definition of paranoia everyone's thinking about.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Saegrimr » #151695

The "deathtrap" thing is also never an actual problem. What on the station can even kill you?

Touching a cable like a retard?

I keep saying to remove door safeties so any retard standing in a doorway is liable to get crunched. Maybe have the gravgen always spewing out radiation pulses too why not.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by CPTANT » #151702

Saegrimr wrote:The "deathtrap" thing is also never an actual problem. What on the station can even kill you?

Touching a cable like a retard?

I keep saying to remove door safeties so any retard standing in a doorway is liable to get crunched. Maybe have the gravgen always spewing out radiation pulses too why not.
Why isn't the gravgen not always radioactive anyway. It's a room that is usually visited maybe once or twice a round.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by onleavedontatme » #151709

I will just repost the thing I said on singulo:

People saying they want more danger but call things that kill them overpowered.

People say they want more paranoia but adminhelp when they get killed in confusing circumstances.

I promise you that if we transplanted this playerbase into 2013 or 2010 code it'd be the same killing spree rounds (but using tk xray through walls, or one hit kill polyacid), and the same butthurt, no magical period of perfect paranoia gameplay.

As to the OPs question, the single biggest way to cause a breakdown in the flow of gameplay we have right now would be a one character change in the config file (enable antag security).

People have overwhelmingly voted no to antag security though. They prefer team HUDs and a level of sanity/standard procedure instead of rioting/backstabbing/ambiguity in the rules.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Steelpoint » #151712

Antag sec was just shit however. It discourage people from wanting to play the role due to the stupidity of anyone and everyone hating you, including your own security fellows.

I find it amusing that you can even consider non-antag sec to be the single focal point of """paranoia""".
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by onleavedontatme » #151714

I didn't say it was the single focal point, just the biggest/easiest change that we could make immediately and unilaterally.

>the stupidity of everyone including your fellow officers hating you

Yes, that is the result of being paranoid and not trusting anyone. And no, like I said, people don't actually want paranoia, because paranoia is not a pleasant emotion.

What people really want is to feel like they are in "danger" but still narrowly come out on top. It would be difficult to create this feeling in a single player game, it is almost impossible in a multiplayer game where we need people to lose.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by CPTANT » #151719

Kor wrote:I didn't say it was the single focal point, just the biggest/easiest change that we could make immediately and unilaterally.

>the stupidity of everyone including your fellow officers hating you

Yes, that is the result of being paranoid and not trusting anyone. And no, like I said, people don't actually want paranoia, because paranoia is not a pleasant emotion.

What people really want is to feel like they are in "danger" but still narrowly come out on top. It would be difficult to create this feeling in a single player game, it is almost impossible in a multiplayer game where we need people to lose.
Though narrowly losing after a struggle is also fine.

What is not fun is situations that make you go from alive and fine to BAM DEAD without any way of reacting.

This is why the singularity is good and the tesla sucks. The singularity is a creeping doom that you can try to run away from, the tesla just kills you.

This is also why I prefer a 2 shot stun system over the single taser shot GG system we have now.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Not-Dorsidarf » #151746

CosmicScientist wrote:Last I checked the only paranoia is that of traitors who lack the ability to know where the AI's eye is, where it's headed or what cameras are being looked through by security and the like.
1tc lets you know where the AI eye is
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by TechnoAlchemist » #151747

1tc lets you know if it is looking at you, not that it's in the room next to you and that it is going to pass over you just as you whip out your throbbing Esword.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Anonmare » #151778

>Buy camera bug
>put camera bugs on as many cameras as possible
>Activate the EMP function
>AI is completely blind in the area your whipping out your murderboner and doesn't know where to check first
For 2 Tc, you can have a multitool and camera bug. If you're really THAT paranoid about the AI, get a syndie key and you'll know when Security are putting on their stomping boots.

You shouldn't even really be killing people without a disguise/covered face+no ID anyway, unless it's a crime of passion in which case:- Buy syndie soap and AI detector. Check if the AI is watching you. Kill Urist McCoworker. Put body in locker/SSU/Bodybag/Anything and clean up the blood. The AI can't even access SSUs anymore so they''re an even more viable place to hide bodies. You can even hack them to render bodies unrecognisable and destroy equipment/identification. Combine it with a quick brain-removal and you've effectively taken somebody out of the round for good and sec has no way of knowing who.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151788

>camera bug every camera in the area

Yeah sure, this sounds totally practical considering the AI has plenty of cameras that can see through windows/are behind access locked airlocks etc.
Also if you have time to sneak into a departmnt and disable EVERY SINGLE CAMERA before even trying to murder someone, then you could have just as easily double tapped them in the head with a revolver and just dragged them out.

I have NEVER seen anyone do this, despite how many AI shills claiming it's a reasonable way to avoid the AI from cucking you.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Saegrimr » #151790

Doesn't EMPing a camera give a huge red flag to the AI who will now be searching the area or relaying "Something EMPed my cameras in the dorms"?
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by TheNightingale » #151792

It only gives an alarm after the EMP wears off. During the duration of the EMP, you can do whatever you like (including disable the cameras).
How about if the EMP kit (with the EMP grenades, EMP implant and EMP flashlight) also had an upgraded laser pointer in it? Pointing one of those at a camera disables it remotely, and it works to stun cyborgs too.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151801

It would be better if they simply never got a notification of emp'd cameras tbh.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Saegrimr » #151809

lumipharon wrote:It would be better if they simply never got a notification of emp'd cameras tbh.
I think its a good thing, you're thinking too directly.
Go set the cameras in the engineering hallway to EMP, wait for the AI to yell about it so everybody goes to check it out then revolver the guy in Xenobio.
CosmicScientist wrote:Antagonists have all the paranoia and having a taste every so often is good enough for me, I'd rather not feel agitated as part of the crew; being able to put trust in other people not only lets you do fun things but lets you get away from valid hunting and focus on making fun out of the game with other players.
The problem is the players start to feel like fodder that only exist for the sake of being killed, which is (one of many reasons) why people just go braindead if they don't roll antag.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Atlanta-Ned » #151811

I dunno, I get paranoid whenever I happen across someone in maintenance regardless of what's going on.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151813

Saegrimr wrote:
lumipharon wrote:It would be better if they simply never got a notification of emp'd cameras tbh.
I think its a good thing, you're thinking too directly.
Go set the cameras in the engineering hallway to EMP, wait for the AI to yell about it so everybody goes to check it out then revolver the guy in Xenobio.
CosmicScientist wrote:Antagonists have all the paranoia and having a taste every so often is good enough for me, I'd rather not feel agitated as part of the crew; being able to put trust in other people not only lets you do fun things but lets you get away from valid hunting and focus on making fun out of the game with other players.
The problem is the players start to feel like fodder that only exist for the sake of being killed, which is (one of many reasons) why people just go braindead if they don't roll antag.
But that "emp engineering" part achieves nothing.
By emping those cameras, there is a (small) chance of you getting caught doing that, and probably searched.
With shooting the guy in xeno, either he has time to call for help or not (unlikely unless you miss like a pleb). Having a couple of guys possibly distracted by the emp achieves nothing of value, unless everyone in science other than the target all go streaming out to engineering for some bizarre reason.

Edit: Two things I think could help with paranoia, perhaps not for the entire game, but specifically with traitor in mind is A: Communication, and B: Sight.

As a traitor, I feel so much more free when comms are down, because I know I can do illegal shit/attack someone, and they can't just scream for help and immediately get the AI to bolt me down/all of sec come down on me.
From the crew perspective, when comms are down you are suddenly cut off from most of the crew. You don't know if there are nuke ops trying to blow up the station, or if the AI has gone rogue, if there are revs in the streets etc.
While I'm not saying 'remove general comms' or any dumb shit like that, I do think it would be good for the game if it was easier for antags to disable comms.

As for sight, two things here. First was an idea for a traitor gimmick item that would be like a laser pointer or some shit, but instead of disabling cameras/stunning borgs, it would freeze what they can see through that camera/what the borg can see for a certain while/until it's fixed.
So rather than an obvious blank spot in camera coverage, the AI would only see a frozen image (this is classic movie stuff, why don't we have it?) for borgs it would basically just cuck them for a while and be hilarious, because fuck borgs.

The other gimmick item, which I've tried to shill before, would be an rechargable item that disables all artifical light (ie: pda lights, but not glowshrooms etc) in a large area for 30-60 seconds. Since most crew don't have access to natural light sources, this would blackout a whole area, leaving it vulnerable to the plucky traitor with thermals/nvg's, or simply to help them escape from a bunch of sec, etc.

People don't like being blind, you can't tell what's going on, but you can hear it, and with the above item you'd KNOW a traitor is someone in your area, but you've got no idea if they're simply strolling by, coming to murder the guy working next to you, or coming for you yourself.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Alex Crimson » #151817

I doubt /tg/ will ever have that sense of paranoia at this point. PR after PR making the game easier and adding things for any powergamer can gt their hands on. Nerfing stealthy antags into the ground because boo hoo something can kill you without you having a chance to kill it. Enabling silly murderboner meta, rounds getting shorter, powergaming becoming more widespread to the point that big powergamers are fed attention rather than bans.

Might as well put both servers on the hub and truly become NOX 2.0
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by PKPenguin321 » #151845

Gun Hog wrote:Your muscles painfully tighten!

:pen: :c4: GG

Both are nerfed/removed.
this is (sadly) the most accurate thing in this thread so far
if there was anything to be paranoid of, it was these things



also we should remove/severly nerf defibs
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Zilenan91 » #151852

A change I'd like to see happen would be to make cameras run off the powernet. It'd make powersinks godlike because it would allow traitors/ops free reign to do whatever they want and not have the chance to get instafucked by a wandering AI or security eye.
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by TheNightingale » #151862

Zilenan91 wrote:A change I'd like to see happen would be to make cameras run off the powernet. It'd make powersinks godlike because it would allow traitors/ops free reign to do whatever they want and not have the chance to get instafucked by a wandering AI or security eye.
As a frequent AI player, I think this'd be quite interesting. Maybe have it so APCs are always visible, though, otherwise the AI can't toggle power to a room without killing their own cameras...
Or... what if cameras run off the powernet, but aren't connected to a specific APC toggle (Equipment/Lighting/Environment)? So only turning off the main breaker or draining the APC's battery works?
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Zilenan91 » #151863

Yeah if there was like a 1 tile vision in front of APCs, but cameras got disabled by power loss that would be ideal. The new cameras wouldn't be as overpowered and it's a needed AI nerf for validscanning.
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by invisty » #151864

Paranioa died with the likes of cryo "usability" changes, the nerfing of hunger, etc.

If you want to improve the paranoia, make people dependent on each other, then design the antagonists to play on that. Then nerf the capacity of individuals to go full walking-armoury-murderboner.

"But no!", says the player. "I dont like how I cant get anything done because nobody trusts me! I should be able to do things without depending on those who anecdotally fail to do their jobs."
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151865

That's basically the crux of it, yeah.
Self reliance a shit.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Babin » #151867

We've had sentiments in the past against removing people from the round (and also placing ghosts back into the round), followed by the push to make the station more dangerous. This led in many ways to the flurry of rounds that we see today. Removing people from the round isn't a huge concern because it's been alleviated by having much shorter rounds.

Having nothing but short rounds invalidates much of the late-game content, and by its very nature it also weakens jobs with late-game power. Botany mutations, xenobio, genetics research, virology, mining, and science (because of mining) all have content locked by timesinks.

On one hand, you have the long and boring rounds where nothing happens. If a bunch of ghosts are stuck for an hour waiting for the round to end, that's never fun for the ghosts. If none of the antags are causing issues, that's only fun for a handful of people (mostly those with the late-game content, whoops). But on the other hand, if you play many short games, then the rounds begin to blur together. There is no room for the late-game shenanigans or the rare extra-long round where the nuke ops go stealth to attempt a fun gimmick. That would be a shame, because while those long rounds can be a bust for some, they have some potential to be the most hilariously fun rounds ever. It's also worth mentioning that when rounds are shorter, your own life is less important because you'll just respawn soon anyway.

I like the game best when I join a lobby with no idea of how long the next round will be. Will it be a wizard that dies in five minutes? A 90-minute manhunt for an exceptionally skilled killer clown who then nukes the shuttle? Variety is the best thing.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by lumipharon » #151870

If you're a ghost you don't need to spectate for an hour. Go do something else, alt tab and jerk off or something.
People complaining in deadchat until admins press buttons for this is also terrible, and has ruined more than one interesting round.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Saegrimr » #151871

There is another server. If you're really itching to get back to spacemans you can just hop onto basil/sybil depending.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Drynwyn » #151874

Saegrimr wrote:There is another server. If you're really itching to get back to spacemans you can just hop onto basil/sybil depending.
some people even speak of servers beyond /tg/station
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Zilenan91 » #151878

None of the other servers have the level of content or content development as we do, except for maybe Goon because it's ancient. It's also to mention how every server is different in forms of attitude, feel, and playerbase, so leaving /tg/ for Hippie or Paradise or even basil, from Sybil, is like an entirely different game, a game you don't like.
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Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Saegrimr » #151879

Yeah you get less validhunting on basil because the pubbies aren't that robust.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Zilenan91 » #151881

The reason that people play less on basil is because it's just an inferior server. Admins in particular treat it like the second son of the family, still loved, yet not as graced as the first. The reason this is the case is because of a lot of systemic issues that were never fully dealt with that drive off players, metafriending, for one. It's horribly bad on basil, I see people given increased access nearly every round with no to almost no words exchanged between the two. The worst is when one of them get attacked or slighted in some way and all of the others dogpile on the assailant no matter how much wrongdoing their friend had done. It's just a horrible place to be that will likely never be fixed.
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Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by PKPenguin321 » #151883

invisty wrote:Paranioa died with the likes of cryo "usability" changes, the nerfing of hunger, etc.

If you want to improve the paranoia, make people dependent on each other, then design the antagonists to play on that. Then nerf the capacity of individuals to go full walking-armoury-murderboner.

"But no!", says the player. "I dont like how I cant get anything done because nobody trusts me! I should be able to do things without depending on those who anecdotally fail to do their jobs."
to be fair, this mindset will inevitably spring from paranoia. if you can't trust people, why rely on them at all?
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by onleavedontatme » #151887

Something being super lethal doesn't cause paranoia by itself.

Nor do consequences (sitting in deadchat for an hour). A wizard warping to station, cheesing stuns to kill everyone, and recalling the shuttle for 45 minutes is not fun or interesting for anyone involved.

Paranoia comes from not knowing.

But we know everything. We have brightly lit areas, cameras, universal radio, secHUDs that see your job and whether or not you have the AntagFree implant, meta tells for all antags, spammable antag tests/deconversion, team huds/private chat for most antag types, etc.

It is not about lethality, it is about information, and trust, and we have a ton of both.

Playing a game of Mafia or Trouble in Terrorist Town doesn't require the badguy to be able to shrug off bullets and rampage to be scary, and the games only last 15 minutes at most. But it exploits everyones lack of information, to sow mistrust and confusion. It is a race against time to figure things out as people get picked off.

We lack confusion, because our players desire clarity, in rules and in gameplay.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by invisty » #151889

PKPenguin321 wrote: if you can't trust people, why rely on them at all?
That's the problem. There's no reason to make yourself dependent on other players unless you're unambiguously allied. eg. metabuddies, no-antag-sec, syndies.

Lone-wolfing, either as a protagonist or antagonist, should ideally put you at a greater disadvantage than cooperating with other players.
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by Zilenan91 » #151890

Or we could just keep taking the game in the direction it's going currently. There isn't anything endemically wrong with the way the game is going right now. All this thread is is nostalgia for a worse time.
Spoiler:
Zilenan91 wrote:
Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

HAVE FUN ESCAPING NOW WITH NO ARMS
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Re: Paranoia on a deathtrap

Post by ShadowDimentio » #151891

PKPenguin321 wrote:
drunkas wrote:Where'd it go?

What's the easiest way of bringing it back?
buff the everloving fuck out of antags, especially the stealthy shit
make it so at any moment a traitor could just out and drop you dead in a second flat
Kor wrote:Something being super lethal doesn't cause paranoia by itself.

Nor do consequences (sitting in deadchat for an hour). A wizard warping to station, cheesing stuns to kill everyone, and recalling the shuttle for 45 minutes is not fun or interesting for anyone involved.

Paranoia comes from not knowing.

But we know everything. We have brightly lit areas, cameras, universal radio, secHUDs that see your job and whether or not you have the AntagFree implant, meta tells for all antags, spammable antag tests/deconversion, team huds/private chat for most antag types, etc.

It is not about lethality, it is about information, and trust, and we have a ton of both.

Playing a game of Mafia or Trouble in Terrorist Town doesn't require the badguy to be able to shrug off bullets and rampage to be scary, and the games only last 15 minutes at most. But it exploits everyones lack of information, to sow mistrust and confusion. It is a race against time to figure things out as people get picked off.

We lack confusion, because our players desire clarity, in rules and in gameplay.
This used to be what changelings did. They'd cuck you in single combat no matter what, and that made everyone paranoid of everyone because WHAT IF THIS GUY IS A LING STAY AWAY FROM MY PERSONAL SPACE

Until the butthurt players that hated parasting had it removed.

Then ling lost it's shtick of "1v1 gods" and wandered around different gameplay ideas that were all shit, slowly dying, until people got so sick of it that it was removed.

Bring back parasting, bring back ling, bring back paranoia, bring back fun.
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