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Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 1:23 pm
by Lumbermancer
So if you don't know, at one point sec got new camera system which basically worked similarly to AI eye. You could seemingly move around to watch stuff. It was really really fun. All I did the whole shift was sit in the chair and look for crime, and laugh at the misadventures of other officers on the radio. The fact is, that it was really rally powerful, possibly even a paradigm shift for sec. Simply monitoring secure areas was a breeze. Snooping on departments. Even tracking perps that were being chased by sec and relaying their position - so fun. Now I can see the perks of being a mall ninja.
So while I think this ability is really powerful, it's no secret that old cameras are used very rarely because of how clunky the whole menu system is. So bring the 2.0 back, maybe nerfing it a bit. Making the scrolling much slower. Or something.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:11 pm
by Alex Crimson
The terrible interface is needed. You are not meant to sit on cameras the entire round validhunting antags with your lightning-fast no-clip sight. Cameras are for checking a specific area. Tracking bad guys is the AIs job and even then its really damn strong.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 2:25 pm
by Gun Hog
I do not expect this to become permanent. I introduced a very powerful tool for security officers (stolen from Steelpoint) to have cameras in their helmets, and gave a link on the SS13 camera net so the warden could track an officer easily:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8439
It was heavily despised by anyone who was not a Security player, and eventually reverted:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/10280
Even the author of the advanced camera system stated that it was never intended to be used by the crew:
https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/8985
You should not hold any expectation of this becoming a permanent part of the game. If my camera helmet PR was reverted, then this much more powerful tool certainly would be as well.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:06 pm
by DemonFiren
CosmicScientist wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:... Tracking bad guys is the AIs job...
sigh
It should really be security's job and no-one else's. At least the warden and the HoS wouldn't be on cameras all the time due to the requirements of their jobs and making it a slow scroll would cause enough struggle
if not leaving it simply as a list of cameras.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:32 pm
by Davidchan
Given a better way to cycle cameras would be fine. Giving them AI eye would not be.
GIve them a new camera hud that can cycle back and forth to cameras, as well as jump-to command.
I'd even be in for a camera upgrade in that installing a scanning module (any tier) in a camera would allow said camera to monitor security records and declare when unknowns or wanted crew passed into that camera's line of sight. If security over did it and had every camera updated, a flood of messages in security chat, so they'd have to pick and choose which cameras to upgrade.
Higher tier scanners could give more detailed readouts. Advanced scanners could use facial recognition to try and locate crew and jump to the nearest camera to view them. Phasics could check for weapons (same way beepksy does) and call out anyone spotted wielding a weapon.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:35 pm
by neersighted
Davidchan wrote:Given a better way to cycle cameras would be fine. Giving them AI eye would not be.
GIve them a new camera hud that can cycle back and forth to cameras, as well as jump-to command.
I'd even be in for a camera upgrade in that installing a scanning module (any tier) in a camera would allow said camera to monitor security records and declare when unknowns or wanted crew passed into that camera's line of sight. If security over did it and had every camera updated, a flood of messages in security chat, so they'd have to pick and choose which cameras to upgrade.
Higher tier scanners could give more detailed readouts. Advanced scanners could use facial recognition to try and locate crew and jump to the nearest camera to view them. Phasics could check for weapons (same way beepksy does) and call out anyone spotted wielding a weapon.
I'm working on a better interface, based on a clickable minimap. Expect it whenever, its very incomplete and doesn't have an actual minimap yet (tgui needs minimaps first).
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 3:48 pm
by Alex Crimson
CosmicScientist wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:... Tracking bad guys is the AIs job...
sigh
It should really be security's job and no-one else's. At least the warden and the HoS wouldn't be on cameras all the time due to the requirements of their jobs and making it a slow scroll would cause enough struggle
if not leaving it simply as a list of cameras.
We do not need half of Sec sitting in offices watching cameras all round just to powergame and catch criminals with them having little/no way to counter it. The AI is one person, and even then its a really damn strong tool to hunt down players. To the point where there have been calls to stop AI validhunting.
Cameras are not meant to be something you spend the entire round using. Even when this console was added it was intended to be exclusively for Abductors.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:45 pm
by Drynwyn
CosmicScientist wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:... Tracking bad guys is the AIs job...
sigh
It should really be security's job and no-one else's. At least the warden and the HoS wouldn't be on cameras all the time due to the requirements of their jobs and making it a slow scroll would cause enough struggle
if not leaving it simply as a list of cameras.
There's a
reason it's the AI's job- because it's really powerful, and the AI shouldn't be aligned completely with Security. It's a huge validhunting tool, and is far, far better at catching traitors trying to set up interesting (possibly non-harmful) strategies then it is catching Revolver McShootAndRun.
Giving Security the ability to easily track down anyone almost anywhere on the station is Not Good- Antagonists need freedom to move.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:56 pm
by Lumbermancer
That's why I said it could be adjusted. Instead of free flow like AI, it could jump to adjacent cameras with a delay when you wasd. It seems like a good compromise. You could still surveil and monitor without having to scroll though the camera list, but not really follow moving individuals.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:08 pm
by Wyzack
I belive one of our big coder types once said that game balance is never a good reason to not implement quality of life features. I wont say who, but i think his name rhymes with berry flan
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:14 pm
by bandit
Alex Crimson wrote:We do not need half of Sec sitting in offices watching cameras all round just to powergame and catch criminals with them having little/no way to counter it.
Except, of course, DISABLING THE FUCKING CAMERAS. Which is now incredibly easy, and does not give an alert. Have we really devolved as a playerbase to the point where antags are no longer expected to take the most basic precautions, and security is not expected to watch cameras (seriously, this is supposed to be a third of the Warden's job)?
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:25 pm
by Davidchan
neersighted wrote:
I'm working on a better interface, based on a clickable minimap. Expect it whenever, its very incomplete and doesn't have an actual minimap yet (tgui needs minimaps first).
\
So basically what paradise already runs? Good luck getting it working with map rotation.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 6:30 pm
by neersighted
Davidchan wrote:neersighted wrote:
I'm working on a better interface, based on a clickable minimap. Expect it whenever, its very incomplete and doesn't have an actual minimap yet (tgui needs minimaps first).
\
So basically what paradise already runs? Good luck getting it working with map rotation.
Its trivial. Not sure why you think this is hard.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:18 pm
by Alex Crimson
If you do not like AI validhunting then nerf AI, dont buff Sec. Warden just sits in his office most of the time, the last thing he needs is a no-clip camera system. HoS should be leading his department, not sitting on cameras. Once again, it is a shit feature that will give way too much information to Security. At least the AI can be subverted, so Sec doesnt always trust it.
Disabling the cameras is not as easy as you pretend. It takes time to fuck around with its wires. time you probably do not have. You want people to disable every camera in the area before they do something bad? That isnt going to happen. It shouldnt need to happen.
Improve the camera interface if you need to. Make it easier to select the area you want to observe? Sounds good. But do not add an extremely overpowered camera console to Sec. Its fucking stupid, and anyone who thinks it would be balanced is an idiot or plays Sec.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:38 pm
by Saegrimr
Alex Crimson wrote:If you do not like AI validhunting then nerf AI, dont buff Sec.
Player problem, not a code problem.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:48 pm
by Anonmare
Alex Crimson wrote:
Disabling the cameras is not as easy as you pretend. It takes time to fuck around with its wires. time you probably do not have. You want people to disable every camera in the area before they do something bad? That isnt going to happen. It shouldnt need to happen.
You don't need to fuck with wires anymore. DIsabling cameras is literally a two-click screwdriver + wirecutters and the camera is down with no alerts. Weld it with a welding tool and it doesn't even show up as deactivated on the network.
Or multitool the camera to fuck up it's focus and reduce it's range to only a few tiles to steathily disable it.
But yeah, sec should not have an advanced camera console. Maybe a basic jump to function where if you hold down a key long enough it'll jump to the nearest camera in that direction but make it slow. I've been a warden on cameras and only checked t-comms and the Vault and caught antags in the act or evidence they've left behind (like a Rogue AI's bluescreened APC. It has the potential to ruin an antag's round if not handled very carefully.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:53 pm
by onleavedontatme
Saegrimr wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:If you do not like AI validhunting then nerf AI, dont buff Sec.
Player problem, not a code problem.
>two opposing factions that will not stop fighting until rendered incapable of doing so
>one faction has nonharmful stun weapons and cells to contain the enemy in
>the other faction is full on dedicated to murder, and has highly dangeorus weapons
>you have a mandate to stop them harming eachother
Code problem
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 7:53 pm
by TheNightingale
CosmicScientist wrote:I know that's why. That doesn't invalidate my desire to have it so only security look for miscreants and until the AI is plonked in the middle of the brig and given a stun baton I don't think the omniscient silicon should ever go around actively validhunting. Especially with what you mentioned, the non-harmful activities resulting in "#s Griff McGriffer has an emag and is stealing the blueprints". I also never said it's good to give this CCTV 2.0 to security, I said break its legs or shoot it in the back of the head.
Just adminhelp AIs who do that. Griff McGriffer would probably get lynched by Security, which is harmful.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:01 pm
by bandit
Alex Crimson wrote:Disabling the cameras is not as easy as you pretend. It takes time to fuck around with its wires. time you probably do not have. You want people to disable every camera in the area before they do something bad? That isnt going to happen. It shouldnt need to happen.
Not anymore, it was changed. It's been changed for a while. Screwdriver + wirecutters. Alternatively, hit it with a toolbox a couple of times, that works too. And yes, people absolutely should disable cameras in the area before they do bad things! This is seriously like Antag 101 tier.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 8:16 pm
by TheNightingale
Screwdriver and wirecutters disables the camera entirely, without giving an alarm to the AI. It's obvious to people who see it though. You can do this with a weapon, too, but that notifies the AI.
Screwdriver and multitool damages the camera's focus, making it only see one tile, without giving an alarm to the AI or being noticeable by people who see it.
An EMP knocks out the camera for a while, only giving the AI an alarm when it reactivates (so if you disable it while it's EMPed, the AI won't know). It's very noticeable to people who see it, though.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:35 pm
by lumipharon
bandit wrote:Alex Crimson wrote:Disabling the cameras is not as easy as you pretend. It takes time to fuck around with its wires. time you probably do not have. You want people to disable every camera in the area before they do something bad? That isnt going to happen. It shouldnt need to happen.
Not anymore, it was changed. It's been changed for a while. Screwdriver + wirecutters. Alternatively, hit it with a toolbox a couple of times, that works too. And yes, people absolutely should disable cameras in the area before they do bad things! This is seriously like Antag 101 tier.
Don't mind me mr chemist while I go into your office and cut the camera, then cut the cameras in the corridor above and behind it, as well the as cameras in medbay as well.
Oh, ok, I've cut all 8 cameras that can see me or where I have to go to leave, ok, time to murder you now.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 9:41 pm
by PKPenguin321
Yeah, if you cut a camera it gives the ol' BIG RED MESSAGE to alert anybody that might happen to be walking by. Not to mention that if a sec officer at one of these consoles sees that medbay's cameras are all seemingly deliberately cut, they will come and attack you regardless of their ability to see you beforehand.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Fri Feb 05, 2016 10:40 pm
by Actionb
Sec cameras should be used to check on important areas, not to big brother on the crew.
Ocassionally finding a crime in progress is fine, but don't allow a desk jockey officer to become the all seeing eye.
Maybe the sec camera system was gimped for so long for a reason?
Minor QoL improvements? Sure!
AI 0.5? Hell no!
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:22 am
by Anonmare
lumipharon wrote:Don't mind me mr chemist while I go into your office and cut the camera, then cut the cameras in the corridor above and behind it, as well the as cameras in medbay as well.
Oh, ok, I've cut all 8 cameras that can see me or where I have to go to leave, ok, time to murder you now.
EIther cut them while the Chemist is out or kill the chemist when he's not in chemistry. And again, you can multitool the cameras which makes it a hard thing to uncover unless you get a multitool and try to mess up the camera focus yourself. Multitooling doesn't give a message (I think) or make a *snip* noise either. Anyone asks what you're doing, just say you're fixing the cameras and snip them twice with the wirecutters before pulsing them with the multitool so people don't think it's that odd.
Just be creative and, you know,
roleplay.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:34 am
by Cik
the chemist is a bad one really because chemists in general are impossible to fucking kill.
unless they are a tator, they will rarely leave medbay which is absurdly impossible to attack except by the most unsubtle and aggressive ways, and if the chemist is a tator and he leaves you'll probably die anyway because chemistry well executed is a synonym for 'godhood'
there are a few jobs like that, but chemistry is probably the worst. in this case the cameras probably don't even really matter, because there will be a MD, the CMO and some random greyshirts getting bruises healed at any given minute that will scream just as loudly.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 12:37 am
by Zilenan91
You can do it though. Just take the payload out of a syndicate bomb somewhere in maint, attach a signaller, toss, ping, boom, gib.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Sat Feb 06, 2016 3:05 am
by bandit
Or just don't use a camera-based method for assassinating a chemist. Not every method has to be good for every objective, Christ.
Also if all the medbay cameras were out I'd be more likely to think medbay itself was rogue, not visitors to medbay.
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 5:58 am
by Helios
Can we make Camera taps have the AI scrolling ability?
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Tue Feb 09, 2016 8:38 pm
by Smeller
Why can't we just make it high-level RnD circuit board
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:36 am
by PKPenguin321
Smeller wrote:Why can't we just make it high-level RnD circuit board
admin items in R&D is the new meme
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:56 am
by Anonmare
Smeller wrote:Why can't we just make it high-level RnD circuit board
>Giving R&D even more power
Let's not
Re: Security Cameras 2.0
Posted: Wed Feb 10, 2016 12:58 am
by Zilenan91
They already technically have that with xenobio consoles anyways