/tg/Station 13

/datum/martial_art/the_sleeping_carp
name = "The Sleeping Carp"
deflection_chance = 100

Jesus H. Christ coders.

Do I even need to describe how fucking retarded this is?

You're up against sleeping carp.

SOME of their members can use guns while others are literally bullet/taser/disabler-proof. How do you know which is which?

AHAH FUCK YOU THERES NO WAY TO EVEN TELL. You've just got to blindly spray bullets at them and pray you hit the ones who aren't running godmode.exe against ranged attacks.

Oh you try to play their own game in melee? Well guess what dipshit, half of them can still use guns so I hope you enjoy the taser up your ass when you try to rush one with a baton. Oh you tased the ranged one? Well the melee guy is covering him and shakes him back up in less than one second! So ultimately you're forced to melee against a gang that excels in melee combat using none of the weapons the game gives your gang and basically try to guess who you should've be targeted and who you should be dodging because there's 0 fucking feedback. In Gang War your first choice of attack decides everything when both sides know who the enemy is and are ready to strike the moment you spot each other. I have to basically flip a fucking coin, rush a guy with a melee stun only to have him gun me down, or try to shoot him and he rushes me and beats me down while I'm still processing how the guy is still at full speed after tanking 10 bullets.

Plus this is GANG WAR. How the fuck is it balanced if all my end-game weaponry is completely useless against another gang's endgame gear? You're literally just setting us up the non-carp gang for failure.

I mean here's a log from last round. It's me and Phoebe versus two carp, one is melee and hence immune to range, the other is ranged and attacks us with a taser. Even when I land a stun on the ranged one with my own taser, the other carp shakes him up in ONE HIT and its like nothing ever happened. But if we switch to melee to stop the melee guy from covering his friend, then Mr. Taser gets a nice easy shot on us. I mean being 100% immune to ranged attacks without any indication in a game where combat is almost heavily dictated by ranged attacks is just such absurdly bad design I feel dumb even having to type this out.

You fire the hybrid taser!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
You fire the hybrid taser!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) says, "Come"
You fire the hybrid taser!
Persh Langston is hit by an electrode in the head!
*click*
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) shakes Persh Langston trying to get him up!
You put the hybrid taser into the satchel.
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) hugs Persh Langston to make him feel better!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
You fire the stechkin pistol!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
You fire the stechkin pistol!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Phoebe Lotsu puts the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi into the satchel.
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has hit the window with the stunbaton!
You fire the stechkin pistol!
You fire the stechkin pistol!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
You fire the stechkin pistol!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has stunned you with the stunbaton!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has smashed Oldman Robustin (as Bill Nefren) in the left arm with the bo staff!
Your armor has softened a hit to your left arm.
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has smashed Oldman Robustin (as Bill Nefren) in the left leg with the bo staff!
Your armor has softened a hit to your left leg.
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has prodded Phoebe Lotsu with the stunbaton. Luckily it was off.
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Persh Langston fires the hybrid taser!
Phoebe Lotsu fires the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) deflects the projectile!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has prodded Phoebe Lotsu with the stunbaton. Luckily it was off.
Phoebe Lotsu puts the ÿ'Type U3' Uzi into the satchel.
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has prodded you with the stunbaton. Luckily it was off
Persh Langston fires the hybrid taser!
Phoebe Lotsu is hit by an electrode in the chest!
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) puts the stunbaton into the satchel.
Rae Sremmurd (as Packing Cahones) has slammed Oldman Robustin (as Bill Nefren) in the head with the bo staff (Wielded)!
Phoebe Lotsu stammers, "F-fuc-ckin-n-ng-g"


I'm not just going to bitch without solutions, but the solutions here aren't hard:

1) Reduce the deflection chance to something below 100% so that they're still not a free kill but they aren't immune to all of the other gang's late-game weaponry either and can't just sit there tanking an Uzi and Stetchkin without some risk of getting hurt. Even if its 80% deflection, give the fucking melee users some kind of color overlay or HUD symbol so that we know which assholes are bulletproof.

2) Remove the sleeping carp because it's a fucking terrible Goof idea that has no place in a Gang War. I don't care how erect you get at the thought of Yakuza v. Mobsters, its not good gameplay.

Edit: Made a PR, removed it from Gang War but adds it to the traitor's toybox.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15500

The person responsible for gang as a whole no longer codes, and the person who made sleeping carp no longer codes, so you are probably better opening your own PR

to be honest, while sleeping carp are a very fun idea in theory, they're rarely ever actually fun in action
that alone should be reason enough to shelf them, but it is an unfortunate waste of potential

The concept of asymmetric gang game play is cool but you really need an entire team doing balancing to pull it off.

Gang in general needs some minor updates to it to shake it up because currently it's just kinda boring seeing the same thing happen every round.

Sleeping Carp doesn't just get insta-dunked on sybil?

All they ever accomplish on Bagil is BoStaff McGee runs down the hall and gets instantly shot at with an Uzi or fucked up by security.

They usually get dunked on instantly because they can't use ranged weapons of any form. So it's all just them getting stunned/pushed over once then lased/shot to death when they're on the ground and can't deflect shit.

That is if they even used a scroll. Sleeping Carp are honestly terribad. Even carp who haven't used the scroll can't use ranged weaponry, so they have actually no use for the armory or for any other gangs weapons, just their own shit, which means they're super inefficient points wise.

Zilenan91 wrote:They usually get dunked on instantly because they can't use ranged weapons of any form. So it's all just them getting stunned/pushed over once then lased/shot to death when they're on the ground and can't deflect shit.

That is if they even used a scroll. Sleeping Carp are honestly terribad. Even carp who haven't used the scroll can't use ranged weaponry, so they have actually no use for the armory or for any other gangs weapons, just their own shit, which means they're super inefficient points wise.

>Even carp who haven't used the scroll can't use ranged weaponry

You didn't read my OP did you? Do you ever read the OP Zilenan?

Unscrolled Carp can use ranged weaponry. Hence the 2nd carp tasing Phoebe and ending any chance we had of winning that fight.


Early/Mid Carp aren't really remarkable since that phase is just everyone spraying and penning people and to the extent violence happens its going to be with stunprods, spray bottles, etc... so its definitely possible to shut down carp while they're just another generic gang that uses all the same tactics and weapons as other gangs.

It's Mid/Late when they can start handing out multiple scrolls and just have their godmode melee'ers serve as bait/tanks who act as an unstoppable screen for their ranged fighters. It would be one thing if Carp was at a disadvantage early on, but they never are. By the time other gangs start buying pistols, Sleeping Carp can buy a scroll for the same price (cheaper when you account for ammo) which renders the pistol (and every other gun) useless.

No they can't, and if unscrolled carp can use ranged weapons then that's a bug because coders said that it's intended they can't use ranged weapons period. You sure Phoebe wasn't in a different gang?

I always thought Sleeping Carp would have either been ridiculously underpowered or overpowered. Last i remember, they used to have about a fifty percent chance to deflect, and usually only with a staff in one hand. Resulting in them being sprayed and dying. Now, it seems as though they can literally deflect everything and force somebody into hand to hand, where they excel and kill the poor guy.
That just really seems crazy to me... Especially with how little people use melee in Gang unless they're lucky and get a switchblade off somebody or their leader actually hands some out. Thing is, thats the whole point of Sleeping Carp... It's different, and they require a different approach to deal with.

Like all things water poops all over them, as do chems and alcohol bottles.

Seriously holy fuck if they aren't wearing head protection whip out an alchol bottle and headsmash the fucker, instant stun, he ded.

Zilenan91 wrote:No they can't, and if unscrolled carp can use ranged weapons then that's a bug because coders said that it's intended they can't use ranged weapons period. You sure Phoebe wasn't in a different gang?

Phoebe was in my gang, I wasn't referring to her. Jesus man READ.

I was referring to Persh Langston, the guy who tases Phoebe at the end. The guy who Rae shook up in a single hit after I tased him.

In case you still have any doubt:

The Sleeping Carp Gang was victorious with 77% control of the station!
...
Youngbuckliontiger was Rae Sremmurd the Virologist and died while fleeing the station
Colm101 was Persh Langston the Security Officer and died while fleeing the station


The whole thing about voluntarily not being able to use guns is thats its not a disadvantage if your opponents guns become worthless too and they have to fight you where you're at your strongest. It's a huge advantage.

And just to put a final nail in Zilenan's argument, here's the code for the Sleeping Carp SCROLL (30 influence):

/obj/item/weapon/sleeping_carp_scroll/attack_self(mob/living/carbon/human/user)
if(!istype(user) || !user)
return
if(!is_in_gang(user, "Sleeping Carp")) //Only the Sleeping Carp can use the scroll
user << "<span class='warning'>You can't comprehend the runes and symbols drawn on [src].</span>"
return 0
user << "<span class='sciradio'>You have learned the ancient martial art of the Sleeping Carp! Your hand-to-hand combat has become much more effective, and you are now able to deflect any projectiles \
directed toward you. However, you are also unable to use any ranged weaponry. You can learn more about your newfound art by using the Recall Teachings verb in the Sleeping Carp tab.</span>"
var/datum/martial_art/the_sleeping_carp/theSleepingCarp = new(null)

The scroll is what disables ranged weaponry, and thats part of what makes the Carp broken - they can choose whatever strategy is better for them and mix their ranks so that its impossible to tell who's going to shoot at you and who's immune to being shot.

@Zil 'like a retard going super saiyan' enan91: Yes and the fucking carp can use these strats too. They benefit even more from water and lube due to how they can just camp across from the slip trap without worrying about getting shot. Its the point that late-game the BEST we can do against carp is use improvised melee against their melee but unlike their melee we can still get our asses shot off (kind of a big deal).

Holy moly. I didn't know it was 100% deflect (since october last year)
Add riot armor, hulk, regenvirus and you could literally bitchslap the entire station with armor piercing 15 brute stun-punches.

100% deflect is quite bad... but having a gang made up of untouchable matrix ninjas and standard goons that can use a ranged weapon is worse.

- cap deflection chance at 80ish percent
- make all sleeping carp unable to use ranged weapons. Give sleeping carp an innate low % deflection chance, so they don't get utterly cucked in the early game before enough influence for scrolls or staffs is in.
- make bo staffs fit in the backpack... dunno, make em telescopic bo staffs or something, it's the future man.

I was the Warden and got converted to Sleeping Carp, I could definitely still use guns.

I've never much liked the sleeping carp since. Even if none of their gang could use guns ever, their gun immunity means nobody else can either.

And as Oldman said, the other gangs have PDAs with strong ranged weapons (so nothing now) vs the strong melee of the sleeping carp.

Actionb wrote: - cap deflection chance at 80ish percent
- make all sleeping carp unable to use ranged weapons. Give sleeping carp an innate low % deflection chance, so they don't get utterly cucked in the early game before enough influence for scrolls or staffs is in.
- make bo staffs fit in the backpack... dunno, make em telescopic bo staffs or something, it's the future man.

All it takes is a flashband or a stun stick, if it aint broke don't fix it and by that I would say the deflection rate. Might as well say the E Shield and dual blades should have an 80% chance as well.

Actionb wrote:- make all sleeping carp unable to use ranged weapons. Give sleeping carp an innate low % deflection chance, so they don't get utterly cucked in the early game before enough influence for scrolls or staffs is in.

Okay... But what if they did something stupid early on and security wants to catch them, or say, they got hit by a stray bullet early on in the shift and Bing! Deflected! Then some guy notices and is like ITS GANGS LOL! Validhunters are everywhere...

Honestly either every gang should either be assymmetric (That is, each one is a special snowflake) or equal. Sleeping Carp are the snowflake gang and flip-flop between OP and UP on a consistent basis.

One gang has good melee (Carp), another should have good ranged stuff, another good defense, etc.

Make everything a gimmick!

srifenbyxp wrote:

Actionb wrote: - cap deflection chance at 80ish percent
- make all sleeping carp unable to use ranged weapons. Give sleeping carp an innate low % deflection chance, so they don't get utterly cucked in the early game before enough influence for scrolls or staffs is in.
- make bo staffs fit in the backpack... dunno, make em telescopic bo staffs or something, it's the future man.

I only read bulletpoints

Pascal123 wrote: Okay... But what if they did something stupid early on and security wants to catch them, or say, they got hit by a stray bullet early on in the shift and Bing! Deflected! Then some guy notices and is like ITS GANGS LOL! Validhunters are everywhere...

Gang is the most obvious game mode already. Chances of seeing somebody tag an area are much higher than observing some random guy deflecting a stray shot.

Sleeping Carp was just a fun side-experiment by Xhuis IIRC. It wasn't meant to be anything serious.

I'd probably have removed it by now if he isn't working on it any more.

srifenbyxp wrote:
All it takes is a flashband or a stun stick

Last time I'm responding to this silly argument.

If the carp gets to use guns AND melee while their rivals can only use melee reliably, I'm going to get that stunprod/baton shoved up my asshole as soon as I try to charge the wrong carp and get tased/shot/etc.

Flashbangs are only reliably available at the armory/brig vendor (with a Sec ID). I hope I don't have to argue why NEEDING security equipment to kill a rival gangster is a terrible design scheme.

Just remove it CJS, I know you can do it

Ikarrus wrote:Just remove it CJS, I know you can do it

God damnit you maniacs managed to drive me to make PR's again.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15500

Edit: Someone already disapproves because 17TC for the scroll is too OP, meanwhile Holoparasites are what... 12TC? Now I remember why I hate making PR's.

>tfw

You basically can't convince me to code for something I don't have creative control over.

Kor wrote:I was the Warden and got converted to Sleeping Carp, I could definitely still use guns.

I've never much liked the sleeping carp since. Even if none of their gang could use guns ever, their gun immunity means nobody else can either.

And as Oldman said, the other gangs have PDAs with strong ranged weapons (so nothing now) vs the strong melee of the sleeping carp.

It's because you didn't use the sleeping carp scroll.

Joining the gang just gives you a chance outside trading TCs to get the fighting style

Flashbangs.
They solve problems.
If all else fails, run, build an explosive lance, and toss it at them. They had it coming :^)

Again, flashbangs are one of the most highly secured items on the station. Gang Wars are all about rough and tumble encounters with whatever weapons you can scrounge up.

Also explosive lance is worse than a regular throwing spear. It does like 20 combined damage and lights you on fire for a pathetic amount of time.

E lance has a 50% chance to ko on basically every target

>expecting me to read a 20 line long attack log

If you don't sum it up in text I'm not going to sift through that shit, you're the OP, do your job.

Also yeah IEDs got buffed super hard, they're really good now. Fueltanks got buffed too, so they also gib, but that's probably off-topic.

martial arts really require a skilled byond player, which is why sleeping carp so wildly spins between OP and shit

Honestly I think the whole combo Idea may have been a mistake.

It is a mistake. It's so very unintuitive having to switch intents on the fly like that when BYond is so laggy and shit.

TechnoAlchemist wrote:E lance has a 50% chance to ko on basically every target

I heard IED's got buffed while I was away, that would explain it.

When I last played IED's were a joke, a flash of fire that would last for 5 seconds. Throwing it onto a spear was literally a downgrade to the spear.

They break reinforced stuff and windows now, so they're quite effective in rev. The KOing is no joke either, basically a fireball.

The sleeping carp gang no longer has special equipment and instead has normal gang equipment.