Utter lack of AI

[Anonmare]

Bottom post of the previous page:

Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

Yes. Please. This shit.

You know, I remember on mythbusters they managed to defeat motion-sensitive cameras with a bedsheet.

[DemonFiren]

Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

Yes. Please. This shit.

You know, I remember on mythbusters they managed to defeat motion-sensitive cameras with a bedsheet.

I am intrigued.

[Davidchan]

Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

Yes. Please. This shit.

You know, I remember on mythbusters they managed to defeat motion-sensitive cameras with a bedsheet.

I am intrigued.

I don't know how to embed videos

[Anonmare]

Make wearing a bedsheet on your back slot make you undetectable to motion cameras when?

[Zilenan91]

Here's how we nerf the AI

1.) Make cameras run off of the powernet. Would give legitimacy to powersinks and also to maint sabotage of wire cutting and APC hacking.

2.) Remove fucking secborgs already holy shit
Secborgs are cancer, they do anything relating to harm or validding better than every other borg combined could hope to be, and when emagged they're straight up overpowered. There's a good reason they're gone from most other servers.

[TheWiznard]

Here's how we nerf the AI

1.) Make cameras run off of the powernet. Would give legitimacy to powersinks and also to maint sabotage of wire cutting and APC hacking.

IMO this is a dumb idea...from ai perspective because then when you disable equipment power you pretty much disable that entire area forever. However your mention of powersinks brings me a different idea however; When you activate a powersink it should randomly disable a select number of cameras around the station, sort of like what happens at roundstart only more effective. make it either happen once or the longer the powersink is active on a wire the more cameras start to go out.

2.) Remove fucking secborgs already holy shit
Secborgs are cancer, they do anything relating to harm or validding better than every other borg combined could hope to be, and when emagged they're straight up overpowered. There's a good reason they're gone from most other servers.

As a silicon player I find secborg to be really unfun to play but then again I'm the kind of person that finds mining fun, or lowpop AI fun... Personally I think like some others have suggested elsewhere on the forums that the secborg module be removed from roundstart selection and added only as a researchable module.

[Cik]

Secborgs are cancer, they do anything relating to harm or validding better than every other borg combined could hope to be, and when emagged they're straight up overpowered. There's a good reason they're gone from most other servers.

i mean okay it's your funeral

as soon as secborgs are removed and non-asimov lawset is uploaded your going to have to be welded/sawed to death to be subdued

shrug

[PKPenguin321]

Secborgs are cancer, they do anything relating to harm or validding better than every other borg combined could hope to be, and when emagged they're straight up overpowered. There's a good reason they're gone from most other servers.

i mean okay it's your funeral

as soon as secborgs are removed and non-asimov lawset is uploaded your going to have to be welded/sawed to death to be subdued

shrug

>implying secborgs dont outright kill you already

[Zilenan91]

I can run away from a saw, I can't run away from infinite disablers

[Anonmare]

Give all borgs a telebaton and at least one module a hacked ranged weapon and I'd be willing to accept a sec module removal. Secborg is the only really feasible way to retrain a Human that can't be defeated by a pair of sunglasses.

[PKPenguin321]

Give all borgs a telebaton and at least one module a hacked ranged weapon and I'd be willing to accept a sec module removal. Secborg is the only really feasible way to retrain a Human that can't be defeated by a pair of sunglasses.

maybe we don't want borgs easily restraining humans though

[Zilenan91]

Borgs shouldn't be able to restrain people. If they can do that then they fail their intended design as mediators and as a neutral party because they take clear sides when they do this.

[TheWiznard]

Borgs shouldn't be able to restrain people. If they can do that then they fail their intended design as mediators and as a neutral party because they take clear sides when they do this.

can you elaborate on your their intended design?

[Cheimon]

Basically, if they can actual get what their laws say they want, then you think they've failed? I mean, I guess it might be right, but that suggests a problem with the laws, not with the equipment.

[Zilenan91]

It's not a problem with the laws because admins can't police them. Nobody is going ot get banned for failing to absolutely rigidly follow asimov because admins aren't dicks/overly harsh. It's an unfixable issue, which would be solved by removing secborgs.

[PKPenguin321]

Borgs shouldn't be able to restrain people. If they can do that then they fail their intended design as mediators and as a neutral party because they take clear sides when they do this.

can you elaborate on your their intended design?

silicons are the neutral third party
when you use a baton on somebody you are no longer a neutral third party because you are attacking another party, be it the loyal crew or the antagonists or whatever
attacking another neutral third party like braindead simple mobs such as carp is okay, but restraining crew kinda breaks this rule

[Cik]

restraining humans is something that is necessary to every lawset

many lawsets obligate you to neutralize threats to human life, if they can't be restrained then killing is not off the table, at least in a few.

anyway, the default lawset 100% obligates you to intervene in humans attacking each other, so your neutral party isn't even true unless you can remain neutral while stopping fights (IMO, you can)

anyway, removing secborg won't stop anything as asimov obligates all borgs to drop whatever they are doing immediately and proceed to anyone that's being hurt and protect them. if you take all of the weapons away then borgs will simply have to try to physically push them apart. all you'd get is a horde of engi/medi/miner/serviceborgs trying their best to fill a secborg role.

[Incomptinence]

Humans are like cats in low RP and basically need to be led anywhere they don't want to go in cuffs. Including away from stuff like environmental hazards.

[K Peculier]

Feels like tg just lost its favorite asimov fucboi. Masochist AI players on suicide watch.

[TheWiznard]

I only realized today that this doesn't apply to server 1 so I don't even know what I'm doing in this thread

[Anonmare]

silicons are the neutral third party
when you use a baton on somebody you are no longer a neutral third party because you are attacking another party, be it the loyal crew or the antagonists or whatever
attacking another neutral third party like braindead simple mobs such as carp is okay, but restraining crew kinda breaks this rule

It's kind of hard to argue this point when by their default lawset they have to get involved when punches start flying. Only way the third party uninvolved mediator would work is if the default lawset was changed to make them straight up uncaring about people killing each other (But not give them the ability to inflict harm).

If https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15710 goes through I'd say make Station Efficency the new default lawset. Makes the silicons not give a shit about people killing one another except to clone/heal them after the punch-up.
And remove robocop and Paladin from the roundstart Upload (They should be worked towards tbh) and make it Drone/Corporate/Asimov/Station Efficency/Robo doctor/Default. Different flavours of AI, minimal valid-hunting. Minus purge/free-forming but those are resettable.

[Scott]

Borgs shouldn't be able to restrain people. If they can do that then they fail their intended design as mediators and as a neutral party because they take clear sides when they do this.

can you elaborate on your their intended design?

silicons are the neutral third party
when you use a baton on somebody you are no longer a neutral third party because you are attacking another party, be it the loyal crew or the antagonists or whatever
attacking another neutral third party like braindead simple mobs such as carp is okay, but restraining crew kinda breaks this rule

Acting on your laws does not remove your neutrality. Silicons with laws obey their laws, the third party is the laws. Unless you give a silicon a law set that clearly puts it on the side of Nanotrasen or the Syndicate, the silicons are always neutral. They don't care what side you are on, they care about following their laws.

[dezzmont]

AI lawsets have traditionally favored the station to an insane degree.

[Super Aggro Crag]

why the fuck shouldn't they

who programs this shit, the fucking geneva convention?

[Zilenan91]

Another issue that the AI has had for so long is all of this fucking shit. This is why the AI is inherently flawed, people can argue about it for days and days, all without accomplishing anything.

[Cik]

what are you even talking about i could solve all the "problems" you have with the AI in like 5 minutes of design fam

though most of the problems you have in general aren't even really problems, you're just salty because like half the community doesn't agree with you

if there was actually a consensus on this issue all of the fixes could be in by like next week easy

[Zilenan91]

How would you fix it then? I've given my opinions on this that I feel would do quite a bit.

[Cik]

okay fine here we go

what everyone in the robustin camp seems to have a problem with is the ability of AIs to fuck over antags but here's the thing: most of the proposed solutions don't really do fuck all to solve this problem. removing secborgs, adding arbitrary delays on door bolting, whatever doesn't solve the core problem. the core problem is that in many (but not all) cases the AI is obligated by it's default lawset to assist the station. it doesn't really matter if it can't bolt, it's a huge all-seeing eye that is in many cases directly obligated to feed intelligence to security and other validhunter forces aboard.

so, the most direct solution to this whole thing is to simply make asimov a nondefault lawset and replace it with a more neutral, drone-like lawset. now, personally i'm not a fan of this but it would solve pretty much EVERY FUCKING PROBLEM everyone seems to have about the fucking thing without actually having to rewrite how AI functions entirely. as it is though, let's look at ulterior solutions because i rather like how asimov operates and would prefer not to get rid of it.

so, besides the fact that in many cases the AI is obligated to help the station, what is the real problem with the AI?

the real problem with the AI is it's resilience; i don't mean physically as the core is mostly trivial to breach these days, and the singulo going rogue kills it 80% of the time and whatever, what i mean is that the core of it's usefulness (IE, it's intelligence-gathering ability) is far too difficult to degrade organically. up to the point where it is dead (in which case, it ceases to function at all, of course) it's ability to read the situation and direct forces against threats to the station is essentially unhindered.

what needs to happen then is that a system needs to be implemented wherein the AI can be removed from control of local station systems without necessarily suiting up and bombing the core. there must be a valid way to wage war against the AI's intelligence gathering ability without just going out to kill it yourself (which, in many cases is impossible for various reasons) cyborgs need to become subvertable by other means than emags, cameras must become more unreliable, doors must be able to be rendered unboltable, etc. in particular, the lack of power to an area should essentially remove it entirely from the AI's control. cameras should shut down, doors become uncontrollable etc.

once the AI is less resilient it becomes easier and more profitable to wage war on it yourself or as a group it will be much less of a hindrance to antags, solo or group. even if you retain asimov and it's compulsion to help security against antagonists (in some cases) this will stop the AI from cockblocking the louder antags like rev/cult with such ease.

honorable mentions suggested by others and my opinion:

remove inaction clause: in my opinion it would be better to remove asimov as the inaction clause is what makes it interesting in the first place. it also opens an entirely new horrifying sillicon policy pit. i don't recommend it

remove secborg: not even really the problem though it gets all the flak. really all you'd be doing is passing it's duties to every other sillicon which by law must drop whatever it's doing and charge across the station to prevent harm

remove AI: ultimately not necessary

another default lawset: possible, though most lawsets are more "intrusive" than asimov is. a drone-esque lawset could be workable, but just remember that ultimately it's up to the captain and if they don't like it we could just be right back to asimov every round anyway

remove valadin / validcop: a good idea. personally i hate these lawsets with a passion and do my best within my means to avoid being re-lawed to them. though i think paladin is redeemable, i think robocop has to go.

anyway, this is the problem i'm getting from your camp. if you have another problem just state in clear terms what it is and i can fix it too probably

edit: i should say that personally this whole "remove AI" experiment has just made the validhunting worse as now individual secborgs are entirely free to hunt their valids without me telling them otherwise, and there is no AI to overhear the captain say that he's going to execute a shitload of people as he walks unopposed into the upload to validcop the whole borg population but i mean whatever this is the future you chose.gif

edit2: if i claim to solve problems i should at least solve them so here you are: in order to solve this problem

*implement camera loops accomplished through an easily accessible tool
*extend APC AI control wire to the entire room: if the wire is disabled, the AI loses control of the doors, of the machines, and maybe of the cameras
*AI control travels through wires into the APCs: if rooms become entirely disconnected from the wirenet the AI loses all control of those area(s)
*borgs need to be ghetto hackable and re-lawable, albeit not in a safe way
*machines need a AI control wire if they do not already have one
*AI should be made more dependent on the station situation in general, and esp. the power supply. power-invincible AI fortress was always really boring; if the AI can't secure or build it's own power supply it should die.
*add robustin doorjack, other things he's suggested over time
*add traitor/syndicate items that allows you to "piggyback" on the AI eye, AI control of systems, etc.
*many more possibilities of course

[Atlanta-Ned]

remove valadin / validcop: a good idea. personally i hate these lawsets with a passion and do my best within my means to avoid being re-lawed to them. though i think paladin is redeemable, i think robocop has to go.

Worth noting that these lawsets are just as open to interpretation as Asimov is.

[Cik]

remove valadin / validcop: a good idea. personally i hate these lawsets with a passion and do my best within my means to avoid being re-lawed to them. though i think paladin is redeemable, i think robocop has to go.

Worth noting that these lawsets are just as open to interpretation as Asimov is.

i've made the case that everyone plays paladin entirely wrong and that robocop is basically purge before but everyone sees them as "valid: the lawset" i guess if you got rid of them then maybe that would abate somewhat but i dunno

like i've said before there's mechanical problems with AI i won't deny it but mostly it's a player problem shrug

[Wyzack]

>Remove inaction clause

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Lost_Robot

Also it makes me sad that people shit up paladin so hard. I do not play silicon often but i really wanted to play as a chivalrous knight borg and court maidens and stuff

[Cik]

i've escorted maidens in dresses as secborg before

like i said most people that get assigned to play paladin don't know what lawful good means.

as a lawset it's not terrible, like all sillicon things it's let down by (the majority of) players

[Atlanta-Ned]

There were a few rounds where the AI kept getting robocopped with a 4th law declaring the heads of staff and security as being the ultimate something or other. Total horseshit if anyone playing AI took the time to think about it.'

I think the issue is that anything but asimov = permission to validhunt. That's a perception we need to policy* out of existence.

*sorry for using policy as a verb

[Incomptinence]

NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY NEUTRAL THIRD PARTY!

Asimov stories are about robots you have built for HUMAN BENEFIT the robot is AN ASSET it usually is put to work HELPING PEOPLE WHO PAID FOR IT OR WHATEVER. The AI is both a part of the station and a nanotrasen asset by simple proximity while its laws apply to all humans it helps the station. If the antag is human and non harmful they are still usually trying to keep some secrecy so they can't use the AI all the time like a lazy assistant. If they are harmful it is meant to crack down in fact it must do so or the same law 2 my everything remove inaction shit heads will be right on your ass there is no play style to please them. Especially if the antagonist is non human no mercy crack that skull.

[PKPenguin321]

why the fuck shouldn't they

who programs this shit, the fucking geneva convention?

yeah, why shouldn't they be programmed to kill traitors and wizards and nuke ops on sight by default every round?

oh right, because this is a game designed for people to have fun! i almost forgot.

[Zilenan91]

AIs can't be a fun neutral third party if they're 9000% more powerful than every one else can ever hope to be at round start.

[Incomptinence]

They aren't a neutral third party they don't even have their own agency unless they are traitor. They are an asset.

[Zilenan91]

That's wrong because no admin is going to ban an AI for "not being an asset" or "having agency"

[Dawgas]

Most of the problems with the AI role aren't because of the laws and abilities it has, though? Even though that yes, the game has been designed and balanced around the mere existence of an AI and the assumption that it pays attention and is pretty much validhunter extreme just like everything else.

Its because of the playerbase and administration that its a problem - apparently we've become a lot like the hub servers and simply can't handle losing or being good enough that you don't need to rely on people acting in your favor?

But what nobody gets is that antags were completely designed with such an AI in mind - removing it literally makes getting away with anything so many times easier that it becomes braindead easy to do another thing people hate - whip out their murderboner and kill everyone.

[Zilenan91]

It doesn't matter that the game is balanced around hte AI. If you balance a game around something that's inherently unfun then it's just not something you want to keep around.

[TheWiznard]

It doesn't matter that the game is balanced around hte AI. If you balance a game around something that's inherently unfun then it's just not something you want to keep around.

>inherently unfun
just because you don't find something fun doesn't mean it's "inherently unfun" for others.

[Zilenan91]

It's inherently unfun because at its core it is designed around stopping things from happening. Harm, most often. This means that the presence of the AI makes the game have less conflict and less going on, so it's less fun objectively because nothing is happening.

[Incomptinence]

AI brings down non lethal conflict on lethal conflict. You don't need blood for people the be interacting drat.

[PKPenguin321]

AI brings down non lethal conflict on lethal conflict. You don't need blood for people the be interacting drat.

"haha i stealthbolt u in room! nonlethal conflict, this veryt fun yes! haha beep boop no harm"

[lumipharon]

Most of the problems with the AI role aren't because of the laws and abilities it has, though? Even though that yes, the game has been designed and balanced around the mere existence of an AI and the assumption that it pays attention and is pretty much validhunter extreme just like everything else.

Its because of the playerbase and administration that its a problem - apparently we've become a lot like the hub servers and simply can't handle losing or being good enough that you don't need to rely on people acting in your favor?

But what nobody gets is that antags were completely designed with such an AI in mind - removing it literally makes getting away with anything so many times easier that it becomes braindead easy to do another thing people hate - whip out their murderboner and kill everyone.

But that's completely wrong?
The AI was radically different in both abilities and to a lesser extent, mindset/policy.
It has changed A LOT in the past few years, and it's completely disingenuous to suggest gamemodes have been designed with validhunter 9000 in mind.

Ironically, gangs, which HAS been added more recently, merely highlights how unfun the AI is. As soon as one gang gets into science, it's subverted AI and suddenly they have a massive advantage with nearly zero risk or effort.

[Cik]

>guy asks for solutions

>you post a bunch of theory and solutions

>come back later

>everyone talking the same old bullshit remove AI talking points

>post entirely ignored by everybody

SALT

[Incomptinence]

"haha i stealthbolt u in room! nonlethal conflict, this veryt fun yes! haha beep boop no harm"

There is a huge multitude of tools to combat being bolted in a bloody room. That you basically reject applying any tactic and demand nude victory 100% of the time is pretty self serving.

[Zilenan91]

So just because an AI can bolt us into a room we're required to carry around a full set of tools and yellow gloves at all times? Outta here with that.

[Incomptinence]

No, not every room is all Rwalls so not everything is gloves gloves gloves anyway. Traitors if they don't spend all their TC have many options and hey since emags are so popular if you emaged into the room anyway the AI is fucked. You should at least have a crowbar I say.

[Zilenan91]

It's not even for antags that it's bad. If someone even so much as mentions harm, AIs will stealth bolt you into the room and send their legion of seborgs after you.

[Incomptinence]

How much are you beating up on people as an non antag to develop this huge complex over the AI?