/tg/Station 13

Man, it feels great. No more captain robocoping/valadining it to hunt antags, no more validhunting silicons tipping off security to everything, no more "AI OPEN!!!!111" every fucking second in the radio.

Hey, is it permament, "test" ("We will remove it if no one likes it" like goofchem) or test?

An actual test.

>No more dynamic roles

Seriously, anti-AI circlejerk is by far the most retarded shit I have ever seen in this community. I'm a sec player who gets pissed off by the AI frequently but I think removing it entirely is beyond retarded.

Luke Cox wrote:Seriously, anti-AI circlejerk is by far the most retarded shit I have ever seen in this community.

100% agree. This is the stupidest fucking thing I have ever seen in my goddamn life. What in the absolute fuck are you thinking.

It's disgusting that a small crowd of crybabies can strongarm their way into something like this.

Congrats on ruining the game. I hope you're happy.

it's the same group of faggots who want cloning nuked. "my round is ruined because i'm shit at antag, nerf everything and make me more powerful".

https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5923

It's only one week, you won't die.

oranges wrote:https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=5923

It's only one week, you won't die.

There is absolutely no reason for this to be happening.

Yes, I think it will improve the game, so I am running a scientific test.

After which I will take feedback and look to make changes or adjust the AI.

oranges wrote:Yes, I think it will improve the game, so I am running a scientific test.

After which I will take feedback and look to make changes or adjust the AI.

If you'd prefer next time I will just remove the AI outright, without any warning.

Myself and several other people have vehemently disagreed with you on this point. The AI is something that makes Space Station 13 what it is. Removing it is akin to cutting out the heart. You are trying to solve problems that don't exist with solutions that are the equivalent of dropping a nuke on an anthill.

If you think the AI is too powerful, buff antagonists with more ways to circumvent the AI. Security cameras have been nerfed to the point where they're basically useless, the follow link lag is a significant nerf that's made it incredibly difficult to respond to incidents in a timely manner. If you're tired of captains Robocopping the AI at roundstart, ahelp it. I've done that myself on multiple occasions.

Kneejerk reactions to remove significant parts of the game are not and have never been acceptable.

There is no kneejerk reaction, you need to slow your roll man.

I'm testing the game without an AI for a SINGLE WEEK, your extreme hyperbole and reaction to this is not giving me any confidence in getting valid feedback from you.

What the actual shit is everyone so ass pulverized over? Calm the fucking shit down. I don't really think removing the Ai is the answer either but if you really believe the Ai is a good addition to the game then what the fuck do you have to worry about? The test will end and it will be added back. Are you just horrified that people might actually think it is fun?

I'm trying to keep this conversation civil and I'd appreciate a similar level of decorum from anyone else who would like to give their input.

oranges wrote:There is no kneejerk reaction, you need to slow your roll man.

I'm testing the game without an AI for a SINGLE WEEK, your extreme hyperbole and reaction to this is not giving me any confidence in getting valid feedback from you.

Your policy thread on the removal has been active for less than a week and the poll is (currently) favoring removal by four votes. This isn't a debate about what does and does not constitute a kneejerk reaction, but this decision that affects a core component of the game was made entirely too hastily.

The manner in which this change was strong-armed into effect is outside the scope of this discussion, my apologies. But don't you dare dismiss my words as hyperbole.

Here's what the next week of Space Station 13 will look like:

• The singularity and/or Tesla will break containment far more often
• Murderous antags will rampage freely after disabling the communication consoles
• Hull breaches, especially those caused by space dust will go unnoticed for several incredibly crucial minutes
• Whole sections of the station will lose power as mice chew through wires without notice
• Greytide will double now that assistants can't law two their way into EVA or tech storage
• Security will be able to freely execute their prisoners with impunity

As I've stated before, the AI has been nerfed repeatedly over the last several months:

• Follow links had an artificial lag added
• Cameras have become much easier to disable
• The Box AI sat is much easier to breach (but I'm not sure if that's intentional)

EDIT: There are a handful of active proposals at the moment that are direct challenges to the AI:

• The Advanced Hacking Tool
• Goof's Chameleon Kit

I'll also add that I personally greatly enjoy playing the AI. When given enough time to play the game at something resembling a normal pace, being able to role play as the computer is a fun, creative outlet for me (thus my heated feedback).

how is the chameleon kit opposing the AI it's for fooling greyshits

Thanks for seeing the future. Now we can see it play out over the next week like adults and actually see first hand if you're right or wrong.
All this talk of 'hurr assblasted minority forcing a change' is hugely ironic considering how assblasted some of THOSE people are sounding over a temporary change of a single server config option.

Look I get that people are upset about the poll etc, can we please move on from that to proper feedback.

Lets not make this an anti ai vs ai player thread.

I want to get some real understandable results out of this.

Well, so far... Nothing really. If you follow someone into a room that has no doors, you are trapped, but that's about it.

So the way it's currently working is that the heads of staff all have a device that lets them operate doors like an AI. The problem with this is that they don't have lawsets that keep them from bolting people like the mime into a room with no way out, which is exactly what happened to me.

So what you're saying is... if you trespass as a mime you might actually have some repercussions?

I think his problem was getting locked in a room with no way to get out ever without ghosting, which shouldn't really be something that should happen.

Or just like, pda/ask on radio for help?

If there is ACTUALLY no way to get out/call for help (ie: locked in a windowless room with no headset/unconscious due to n2o etc, then you can ahelp that assuming it was a non anag that did it.

You ask Captain, HoP or HoS to open the gateway they never do it, now that the AI is gone, the gateway is closed forever

You CAN PDA people, but you don't know if you're PDAing people who either can't get to you, don't care about you, or will have their PDA messenger off due to round events. It's really not TOO serious an issue, since admins can always help the player out if they've been locked up for too long, but still a problem.

Gateway access really should be more common. Also aren't the walls around it regular walls, or are they rwalls?

I mean strictly speaking head's shouldn't be locking people anywhere but the permabrig

Zilenan91 wrote:You CAN PDA people, but you don't know if you're PDAing people who either can't get to you, don't care about you, or will have their PDA messenger off due to round events. It's really not TOO serious an issue, since admins can always help the player out if they've been locked up for too long, but still a problem.

Gateway access really should be more common. Also aren't the walls around it regular walls, or are they rwalls?

r walls as it is a "high security area"

Pssshh that's like saying Medbay isn't a public space

If only you could like... get more access, or hack the airlock to the gate way, or RCD it.

dont' be silly lumi, that's way too hard!

HoPs never give anybody high security access ever, hacking works but you need most of the time need gloves, and definitely need game knowledge, which isn't something everyone has, and RCDs are from cargo so you need access for that.

cocothegogo wrote:You ask Captain, HoP or HoS to open the gateway they never do it, now that the AI is gone, the gateway is closed forever

>what is a screwdriver, multitool, and crowbar

What kind of shitty hop doesn't give gateway access?

Also if you lack the basic game knowledge to hack a door, it's a pretty good bet you are going to die like a fucking pleb in the gateway anyway.

Sometimes people steal all the multitools and cargo is shit and makes you get 9000 stamps just to get a multitool. Shit happens that is shit and can't be avoided.

lumipharon wrote:So what you're saying is... if you trespass as a mime you might actually have some repercussions?

Trespassing? I was in the dorms!

you should probably report that to an admin

Oh golly what an amazing test never seen a round without the AI before!

I'm just saying, when you give the remote door mechanic to people not bound by laws, it makes acting like a complete asshole way easier.

I think this is a good opportunity to see how the game goes without a round start AI.

This is the point of tests, so we can accurately see the effects of a change over a week or so. Shouting expletives just makes you look like a cry baby.

Pretty sure it's not just roundstart AI that got axed, but also researchable AI.

You certainly don't need gloves to hack and if you're an unrepentant asshole you don't technically need a multitool either. Just like, go get yourself 1 burn patch and find the shock wire, then remind yourself to never touch it again.

With a little time PAIs can get you anywhere now. Without the AI to fight them off science is basically capable of printing slow demi-emags.

PAi hack is hilariously slow, you are better off hacking

It's great in certain modes. Basically on a scale of WEAK ANTAGS ----> STRONG ANTAGS, the weakest play a lot better without an AI while the strongest tend to run rampant without an AI to track/contain/destroy them.

I'd really like to see lings in rotation without an AI to fuck with them (well not pure lings since nobody actually got that mode working but traitorlings at least).


While I think killing the AI outright is not feasible, here are some common sense suggestions to bring the AI back to sanity:

1) When the AI attempts to bolt a door, that door will now flash emergency lights for 5-10 seconds before the door is actually bolted

2) Remove AI access to dept. radio (possibly even remove borg radio upgrades, at least at roundstart, asimov secborgs should be a harm prevention tool ready to respond to immediate requests for help on common radio, not a super officer thats too busy lurking on sec radio validhunts to stop the bar fight going on).

3) More natural camera blindspots, whoever decided that every square-inch of the station not in maint. (and even some of maint.) needs 100% camera coverage can eat a dick. Especially the bullshit Xray cameras.

4) Get rid of the spergy AI sat designs (this new one is worse in every sense, if you're a powergaming turbohitler its even easier to kill than before whereas if youre a normie then you have to clear a gauntlet of like 10 fucking turrets across three rooms).

5) Taking a photo of a room and placing it on the camera will give the AI a static image of that room. Astute AI's will notice if certain things aren't moving/responding and can fix it but it won't do the obvious static that gets security called to that room 9/10 times.

6) Implement my doorjack device. Its basically a one-touch bolt/unbolt device that also disables all AI control to a door and unshocks it (if shocked).

7) Add a delay to all radio-based tracking, like 10 seconds or so, so that you can still zip to locations if someone is smart enough to shout where they need help. Will assist in ending the era of being able to shout "HELP!" on radio and still getting instant AI backup that bolts all escape routes for your attacker and gives sec your location/status.

Yeah I'm finding that most antags are pretty well balanced with AI and are very powerful without. If we go through with this long term we are going to need to reconcile it with pretty much everything in the game.

i played a few rounds as freeborg

it was terrible, with no AI to defend upload i got validcopped several times whole round

remove validcop at least thank you

Oldman Robustin wrote: 1) When the AI attempts to bolt a door, that door will now flash emergency lights for 5-10 seconds before the door is actually bolted

5-10 seconds seems like an eternity but I don't hate this idea.

Oldman Robustin wrote: 2) Remove AI access to dept. radio (possibly even remove borg radio upgrades, at least at roundstart, asimov secborgs should be a harm prevention tool ready to respond to immediate requests for help on common radio, not a super officer thats too busy lurking on sec radio validhunts to stop the bar fight going on).

Or make it like the cap's headset where the channels have to be enabled manually. Or leave it up to the individual department heads as to whether or not they want the AI on their channel.

Oldman Robustin wrote: 3) More natural camera blindspots, whoever decided that every square-inch of the station not in maint. (and even some of maint.) needs 100% camera coverage can eat a dick. Especially the bullshit Xray cameras.

Keep the departments covered, but kill cameras in more out of the way areas like tool storage, the construction area etc

Oldman Robustin wrote: 4) Get rid of the spergy AI sat designs (this new one is worse in every sense, if you're a powergaming turbohitler its even easier to kill than before whereas if youre a normie then you have to clear a gauntlet of like 10 fucking turrets across three rooms).

I think the current sat design looks "cooler" but I don't agree that it's harder. The APC for the long hallway is very accessible.

Oldman Robustin wrote: 5) Taking a photo of a room and placing it on the camera will give the AI a static image of that room. Astute AI's will notice if certain things aren't moving/responding and can fix it but it won't do the obvious static that gets security called to that room 9/10 times.


6) Implement my doorjack device. Its basically a one-touch bolt/unbolt device that also disables all AI control to a door and unshocks it (if shocked).

I love these ideas so much. Maybe the doorjack could come in two flavors: a traitor item that performs those functions without a delay and a high-level researchable version that has a slight delay (and maybe does it very noisily)

Oldman Robustin wrote: 7) Add a delay to all radio-based tracking, like 10 seconds or so, so that you can still zip to locations if someone is smart enough to shout where they need help. Will assist in ending the era of being able to shout "HELP!" on radio and still getting instant AI backup that bolts all escape routes for your attacker and gives sec your location/status.

There's already a delay and I think it's long enough

AI player here - I have to disagree with you there Atlanta on the last point. In my opinion the current follow "delay" isn't a delay at all. 3 seconds is not enough. Personally I would just rather get rid of the follow links all together. Ais can still track quickly by using the track with camera option.

On ai dept radio as I said before I really think we should just go back to 3 intercoms and if you want to have dept channels you have to set your intercom up yourself. It's not difficult to click on telecom servers to see which dept had what freq.

With how simple it is to disable cameras I feel like the picture idea should be more simple too, I'd go as far as to suggest even just simply putting some cable on a photo and hitting it on the camera should make it display a blank room.

I think X-ray cameras should only exist as an upgrade people can attach to cameras themselves(aka never because whose gonna do that for the ai?) I don't think they should be default on any map... Are they even any on any map round start?
Motion cameras should stay though. Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

TheWiznard wrote:Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

Yes. Please. This shit.

TheWiznard wrote:Ais can still track quickly by using the track with camera option.

You know, I'd completely forgotten about that option. Losing the follow links is actually not the worst idea.

Semi-frequent AI player here with a couple of points:

1. The "utter lack" of AI is due to a config, it would be simple enough to just disable roundstart AI.

2. Borgs are not disabled, so this really takes a stressful role and makes it even more stressful as now a handful of borgs with limited scope have to do the work of an entire AI. I don't know why anyone plays borg with this up tbh

3. I am generally against simplifying/removing aspects of the game and its conflict. AI is one of those aspects.

DemonFiren wrote:

TheWiznard wrote:Even better I would suggest that as long as you are walking motion cameras will not activate.

Yes. Please. This shit.

You know, I remember on mythbusters they managed to defeat motion-sensitive cameras with a bedsheet.