/tg/Station 13

Maybe I just missed the discussion on it, but this change was a total surprise to me. I haven't had a chance to play a round with a traitor detective yet, but I imagine this is going to be polarizing. How does it work in practice?

Eh give it a shot. Perfectly trustable buddies are against the essence of the game anyway and they still can't be a swath of group antags, you know like sec used to be but now that actually matters because rounds are no longer 60-80% tator so they are less likely to be rogue still.

What about balance-wise? Is it broken? Is security less trustful of detectives now? Does the HoS just take the forensic scanner?

None of those things. None of the munchkin gotta-kill-em-all players have gone detective yet so it hasn't messed with people.

please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine

PKPenguin321 wrote:please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine

That's a strange and counter-intuitive exception. Aside from revhead, any job capable of being an antag can be any antag.

Luke Cox wrote:

PKPenguin321 wrote:please note that the detective can ONLY be a traitor or double agent, NOT a revhead/cultist/gangboss/shadowling etc.

i think it will be fine

That's a strange and counter-intuitive exception. Aside from revhead, any job capable of being an antag can be any antag.

well boo hoo

Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes

If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

Shaps wrote:Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes

Any traitor can get implanted.

Scott wrote:

Shaps wrote:Having it so a loyalty implanted position can still be traitor is weird and breaks the rule of thumb that roundstart loyalty implanted crew are trustworthy, but I guess we'll see how it goes

Any traitor can get implanted.

Yeah but up until this all of the roles that can't roll antag have been the ones with implants, so it's a bit weird now

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

It's not. Rev detective would be disgusting. Though he does have sunglasses...

Space desperado, I approve.

Luke Cox wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Scott wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

Luke Cox wrote:

Scott wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

Oooor just let the detective keep something that doesn't fucking matter to the antag roles he can have, anyway.

Jesus fucking Christ.

It matters as far as gang/rev/cult goes, it matters a great deal. If detectives are eligible for traitor, there's no reason they shouldn't be eligible for those either.

On servers that allow a tag sec (goon for example) the HoS is the only one to be immune to being a antag, though he's significantly more heavily armed and armoured than anyone else on the station.

Furthermore sec are still disallowed from being round start conversion antags like Rev or Cult, for clear balance reasons that I don't need to explain.

Luke Cox wrote:It matters as far as gang/rev/cult goes, it matters a great deal. If detectives are eligible for traitor, there's no reason they shouldn't be eligible for those either.

That's stupid it used to work this way and it made total sense.

That's like saying officers should turn into malf AIs in the middle of the gear room it is gibberish we have better systems than that.

Anyone who wants sec to be eligible for gang, cult or rev may as well come out and admit they want to remove security from the game.

Those three game modes rely on there being a security presence on station to be the primary force to challenge the antagonist group. If that same antagonist group can SPAWN ROUNDSTART as members of security then you may as well call the round and save everyone half an hour of security converting the entire station to revs/a gang/cult, backed up with a air of legitimacy of being in a position of ""trusted"" authority and weapons that outmatch anyone else.

Security should never be roundstart antagonists for obvious reasons, but I'm 100% on board for detectives getting the lawyer treatment: affiliated with and working under security, but without the authority that security has.

"Authority" is literally just having good stun weapons, and the detective has the best stun weapons, so they must have the most "authority".

ShadowDimentio wrote:"Authority" is literally just having good stun weapons, and the detective has the best stun weapons, so they must have the most "authority".

Traitors have infinite ammo stun weapons in the form of ebows, and I don't think they carry much authority with the staff. By "authority," I mean that they're allowed to arrest people who are breaking the law and imprison them without repercussions from centcom.

It ignores that config option entirely. I tried to point this out, and was dismissed.

That config has nothing to do with loyalty implants.

Zilenan91 wrote:None of those things. None of the munchkin gotta-kill-em-all players have gone detective yet so it hasn't messed with people.

i rolled traitor detective
and bought martial arts
and the hos trusted me so much when i was beating him with my police baton
oke oke this is enough!
>i keep bashing
>DETECTIVE ROGUE BRIG

Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

Steelpoint wrote:Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

why not make whole security able to roll antags again
i mean like you cant say its OP because hop can just rush in armoury and go to a murderboner without trouble

so security wont be like should be trust the detective... orrr?
and that feel gets spreaded trough whole sec team

Steelpoint wrote:Its going to take a while for security players to get used to a antag detective being a possibility.

Or maybe most people treat roles who could be antags decently anyway?

What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

Just proximity to you as a regular security player. People in other departments get back stabbed all the time.

Ezel wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence

There's no evidence to indicate that the Detective is not subjugated to the same training and/or defence against being corrupted than any other Security Officer. Whereas there is evidence he is protected against such, hell this change bruteforces its way through by saying that even though the Detective is loyally implanted that he is still capable of being a Traitor or similar.

No matter which way this change goes, but if the Detective is going to keep his antag status then he needs to lose his loyalty implant.

Steelpoint wrote:

Ezel wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:What does that mean?

There's a critical difference between anyone outside of security who can be a antag versus someone who is a member of security and is a round start antagonist.

would make more sense of having a corrupt security officer
then a detective who handles all evidence and who is mostly trusted with evidence

There's no evidence to indicate that the Detective is not subjugated to the same training and/or defence against being corrupted than any other Security Officer. Whereas there is evidence he is protected against such, hell this change bruteforces its way through by saying that even though the Detective is loyally implanted that he is still capable of being a Traitor or similar.

No matter which way this change goes, but if the Detective is going to keep his antag status then he needs to lose his loyalty implant.

in that case hop needs to lose his antag status

HoP does not have a loyalty implant.

He's only immune to Cult rounds specially due to balance concerns. Everything else is a head of staff antag immunity for rev.

Steelpoint wrote:HoP does not have a loyalty implant.

He's only immune to Cult rounds specially due to balance concerns. Everything else is a head of staff antag immunity for rev.

Hop is litteraly traitor captain in a nutshell
and we did remove traitor captain for balance issues didnt we

He can't lose his loyalty implant, unless you want revhead detectives/gang detectives. It'd be miserable.

Then he shouldn't have antag status!

Either all of Security (barring HoS) can be a traitor or none of them can.

Otherwise this is a inane inconsistency for the sake of someone wanting to play out their fantasies of being a rogue detective.

Steelpoint wrote:Then he shouldn't have antag status!

Either all of Security (barring HoS) can be a traitor or none of them can.

Otherwise this is a inane inconsistency for the sake of someone wanting to play out their fantasies of being a rogue detective.

You really think centcom will assign station heads with a loyality implant so they are trustworthy and handling their department

Everyone should lose antag status because nanotrasen is a wonderful caring company that loves to maintain the workplace health and safety of their people and ensure the local area is free of eldritch or alien threats.

Luke Cox wrote:

Scott wrote:

Luke Cox wrote:

Steelpoint wrote:If he's going to be a antag role, which is bad, then remove his loyalty implant.

Or don't since it'll make it easier when this change is inevitably reverted.

I'm tentatively supporting this. The more authority figures that can be antags, the more paranoia there is. The loyalty implant thing is most likely an oversight and should be corrected asap

The detective keeps the loyalty implant because he would be implanted every round anyways.

Good, force security to waste an implant if they want the ease of mind

I've said before this is a stupid practice and still maintain that stance.

Removing antagsec was a great move that improved the game a lot, this is just a step back towards that and will probably be a bit shit.

Not sure what exactly the reason for merging it was, but I imagine it'll be reverted sooner or later.

If only people did not love to toe the line and be shit, we could just give dets the antag objective 1: Be a loose cannon who doesn't play by the book

What book?

The only "book" left is server rules, so ???

Calm down people it is just a detective trope. I just want a HoS to make me turn in my gun and badge for once

Wyzack wrote:If only people did not love to toe the line and be shit, we could just give dets the antag objective 1: Be a loose cannon who doesn't play by the book

I suggested something like that in the PR thread, but since Space Law was removed, it doesn't really work as well now.

""You are a loose cannon. You'll do whatever it takes to uncover the truth - but be careful not to become that which you hunt. You still obey the law, and cold-blooded murder isn't in your nature, but like all good Detectives, you play fast and loose with the rules; in the pursuit of justice, let nothing get in your way."

Kor wrote:He can't lose his loyalty implant, unless you want revhead detectives/gang detectives. It'd be miserable.

Not having an implant would not make the detective eligible for revhead or gang leader, only vulnerable to conversion. The only antag roles the detective can be is traitor (and double agent because it is a child of traitor).

The detective is the origami killer