/tg/Station 13

It's hard to enjoy playing the mode anymore when every round plays out more or less the same.

10/10 suggestion m8

guys shadowling is bad its always the same make it good thanks

yeah man it's just a black dude staring at people in maint coderes pls

guys traitor is just guy buy sword and shoot the men change pls

Wheres that "hide zilenan posts, don't reply to zilenan threads" image

Wouldn't be that appropriate in this situation, usually used when I say unpopular shit or memes. Realtalk though, Gang actually does need some updates, it's just gotten tedious.

So start suggesting some.

https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15913

This would fix gang.

It'd turn rev into a bloodbalth/salt mine though.

Rev is more fun when the revs win anyways, so yeah I'd be up for it.

Saegrimr wrote:So start suggesting some.

bring back sleeping carp
the gun gang is a singular gang who gets lesser summon guns and armblades instead of smgs and switchblades
wizard gang who is shitty but if they get 1,000 points they can buy a spellbook
admin gang who can ban somebody for 100 points until the round ends
erp gang erp isnt banned for them but thats it
spray gang are spray paint based humanoids that leave tags wherever they walk
rev gang who converts using flashes
is-a-lizard gang which can only happen if is-a-lizard is the gang boss they have admin powers and gain antag tokens instead of influence points, but at the same rate
lavaland gang which spawns on lavaland but without any lavaland gear so the ash storm just kills them all the time
zilenan gang is basically the same as the normal gang now but vaguely better
captain gang everyone in the gang is the captain, as in, whenever a guy gets penned they are absorbed by the captain and become a new set of limbs
murderbone gang the gang boss gets a "you are the traitor" message because they cant tell the difference and cant make a dominator, they only win by escaping alone
emoji gang gives everyone cancer
fps gang plays in first person
my favorite feature from polaris gang plays with their screen flipped so the brig is south and engineering is north and stuff
valid gang can only buy syndie balloons
metagang can only recruit robust players, the ai is allowed to bolt the execution room if they are subverted by this gang
also sec now takes one and a half implants to implant a gangster, as a compromise between 1 and 2

how about a gang that functions by capturing people, surgically removing their legs, and replacing their stumps with stilts with guns duct-taped to them so every time they walk the guns fire

Kor do you remember that one round, once upon a time, where we had a rev 'rp' round?

Revheads (including myself) were told to only convert people who agreed to join the fight against the facist pigs etc.
Heads of staff and sec were told to be tyranical and shit.

Within 20 minutes, while I was still building a cozy maint base for muh rp revs, sec proceeded to go and simply murder everyone on station without an implant.

If sec doesn't have the options of implants at all, that is what they'll HAVE TO DO every single time.

Isn't death and violence in a game mode about death and violence more exciting than lines of people cuffed to chairs awaiting implants?

Well yeah, but the gang winning and sec winning doesn't really make gang fresher. It was gangs like sleeping carp before they were changed that were nice breaks from what gangs did that kept it fresh because they weren't just pen people > gather em up > hand out guns > put down a dom > rwall it > win.

Kor wrote:Isn't death and violence in a game mode about death and violence more exciting than lines of people cuffed to chairs awaiting implants?

Sec executing every single person they see that doesn't have an implant until the round ends while thematically appropriate isn't very fun.

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Kor wrote:Isn't death and violence in a game mode about death and violence more exciting than lines of people cuffed to chairs awaiting implants?

Sec executing every single person they see that doesn't have an implant until the round ends while thematically appropriate isn't very fun.

Basically this.
If you want to go down that route that's fine sure, but that seems completely at odds with the past 2 years of changes adding 353407034098 ways to get back into the round after dying because people get mad salty about getting removed from the round now.

I don't think death is bad if

A) The round will end (rev has a very clear goal and end, even when it drags out)

B) There are ways to keep playing (we have more of that now)

What I really want to avoid is being dead for a long time with no end of the round in sight, not death in general.

Literally all it takes for a rev round to last forever is one head or headrev to hide.

ShadowDimentio wrote:

Kor wrote:Isn't death and violence in a game mode about death and violence more exciting than lines of people cuffed to chairs awaiting implants?

Sec executing every single person they see that doesn't have an implant until the round ends while thematically appropriate isn't very fun.

Right now they just arrest every single person without an implant and hold you until they can order enough implants. Murdering whoever manages to unbuckle.

And how is sec just executing you on the spot an improvement to that

Like the implant removal would be an alright idea if it included a way to test people's loyalty and bringing back concussions reverting your allegiance. Have like shining a penlight in someone's eyes (they have to have face covering masks, helmets and glasses removed) say "Greyshirt McTider's eyes glow with hatred for the establishment!" or something if they're rogue.

If sec is indiscriminately murdering people then even if you're a non-antag you should probably start murdering them as well. It's literally validation for the entirety of what revs are supposed to be.

Again, thematically appropriate but if sec can't deconvert headrevs and have no idea who they are than indiscriminate murderbone is the only door left.

Shining a penlight in a headrev/gang boss's eyes should give a different message, then, so Sec can distinguish between normal gangsters/revs and their leaders.

ShadowDimentio wrote:Have like shining a penlight in someone's eyes (they have to have face covering masks, helmets and glasses removed) say "Greyshirt McTider's eyes glow with hatred for the establishment!" or something if they're rogue.

Stealing my ideas, for shame.

I meant that in addition to "shining a penlight in a rev/gangster's eyes gives a message".
Penlight --> rev/gangster: "Greyshirt McTider's eyes glow with hatred for the establishment!"
Penlight --> revhead/gang boss: "Greyshirt McTider's eyes glow with BARELY CONCEALED hatred for ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING! You get the feeling they're going to blow up the Houses of Parliament."
Penlight --> implanted person: "Robust McRedsuit's eyes shine with devotion to the company!"
Penlight --> dead person: "They're dead, Jim."

Or we can just keep the mode as is and tell the Revs/Whatever to get good and stop getting captured and/or work faster to convert the station.

I concur

If you spread fast enough then Sec can't do shit to stop you. And if you know that they're camping out in cargo for implants, blowing them the fuck out is literally as easy as throwing away a bomb.

Gang isn't meant to be a conversion spam mode. That is why there is a time limit on their pen.

But it is. Whenever I play ganghead it's literally a rush to get conversions, as there quickly comes a point where the crew has either already been converted to sec or another gang, and you're fucked.

Shadow is right. You can't not have a conversion spam mode if it's a team antag unless you stop them from converting at all. It's just how the game functions.

ShadowDimentio wrote:But it is. Whenever I play ganghead it's literally a rush to get conversions, as there quickly comes a point where the crew has either already been converted to sec or another gang, and you're fucked.

Get implant breakers, all you need is one person with a reliable stun and the implant breaker and you can get your gang growing back pretty quickly. Or just pen two other people and promote them to lieutenants really quickly so you have triple the conversion power early. I always do it and it generally works really well. Shit out uniforms, implant breakers and cans and its over.

Kor wrote:https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/15913

This would fix gang.

It'd turn rev into a bloodbalth/salt mine though.

Wouldn't really fix anything given that sec rarely dominates during gang, usually the gangs murder eachother and nobody can recall the shuttle.

ShadowDimentio wrote:already been converted to sec

That's the problem. Sec shouldn't be a "conversion" team.

I'm really baffled that people enjoy the current stale, boring, safe versions of rev/gang where sec just implants everyone whether or not they've committed any sort of crime.

Is winning/making sure nobody gets upset in deadchat more important than having an exciting round? I'd rather lose rev in a last stand lasering people as they smash into the brig than sit stomp door to door implanting everyone before anything happens.

This is also another great example of "WHERE DID THE PARANOIA GO I AM BORED" followed by "NO DONT CHANGE THAT I NEED MY ANTAG TESTS PEOPLE MIGHT DIE"

The thing about sec "fun" in mass conversion gamemodes is that in order to have those great last stands a lot of things need to go right, and I will admit that going out in a blaze of glory against an insurmountable threat is pretty fun and cool.

However, not having implants and knowing as sec that you can't really do all that much to not have the station turn into a literal hellscape for you, and although I have had some good moments hunkering down with a small group of loyalists and trying to survive, most of the time it has just been either sitting in a room and waiting for a dom to go down, or going out and trying to deal with gangsters and getting jumped.

The issue with gang over rev is that gang has higher conversion costs, and as such makes losing gangsters more crippling, versus rev where you can very quickly have a huge force to deal with as sec, and this makes the existence of loyalty implants somewhat justified and why it takes a pretty cohesive sec force to put down a revolution vs implanting in gang where you end up just making only one gang exist.

Kor wrote:Is winning/making sure nobody gets upset in deadchat more important than having an exciting round? I'd rather lose rev in a last stand lasering people as they smash into the brig than sit stomp door to door implanting everyone before anything happens.

I've been trying to show you this. Removing implants isn't going to make anything more fun for anyone, hell it'll make everything worse because all sec, the primary opposition to both round types, can do is literally kill or be killed.

Kor wrote:

ShadowDimentio wrote:already been converted to sec

That's the problem. Sec shouldn't be a "conversion" team.

I'm really baffled that people enjoy the current stale, boring, safe versions of rev/gang where sec just implants everyone whether or not they've committed any sort of crime.

Is winning/making sure nobody gets upset in deadchat more important than having an exciting round? I'd rather lose rev in a last stand lasering people as they smash into the brig than sit stomp door to door implanting everyone before anything happens.

The thing is a a sec player, unless you literally just sit in the brig you tend to get jumped pretty early if you don't take steps to stop the population getting out of control.

Sitting in deadchat for 30 minutes watching literally nothing interesting happen isn't exactly my idea of "fun". That's the issue I have with the current system, you are encouraged to power game just to stop yourself getting fucked in the first 10 minutes. Gangs target security pretty early (the good ones at least) and to be honest I'm not willing to sit out 40 minutes in dead chat just to make sure you have a more engaging gang round. I'd rather just not play sec at all.

It was a mistake to close the limited implants pr. The only reason rev is bearable with the implant roulette is because of how fast and how many people the revheads can convert. There aren't opposing teams who can take your converts so you don't fuck yourself if you flash someone, and that means that the round is faster and more exciting because a horde rapidly grows and assaults the brig in a big showdown with most of the revheads usually being alive. This doesn't ever happen in Gang because of how it works, so this gives sec all the time in the world to roll up to cargo and start spamming implants. This is a massive design flaw that can't really be solved without limiting the implants sec can get or completely redesigning gang.

Have you literally read nothing of what I said

Sitting in cargo waiting for implants is better than sec executing everyone

But it's not, if everyone dies admins make events so shit actually happens rather than sec being nazis to everyone who isn't implanted.

i've had awful rounds with sec tryign to implant me and killing me if i don't agree to be abducted from my workplace, beaten, and implanted. if i survive i usually go to medbay and ask for it to be removed and then spend the round IEDing sec

Super Aggro Crag wrote:i've had awful rounds with sec tryign to implant me and killing me if i don't agree to be abducted from my workplace, beaten, and implanted. if i survive i usually go to medbay and ask for it to be removed and then spend the round IEDing sec

The road these idiots want to go would start and end with you getting tazed and executed on the spot

ShadowDimentio wrote:Have you literally read nothing of what I said

Sitting in cargo waiting for implants is better than sec executing everyone

No, It's not.

Simply put once you have a core of competent players in place and implanted the best thing you can do as sec is just murderzone everyone is confirmed as a hostile threat.

Not that I agree with it, I'm just saying it's the most efficient thing to do and the best way to not get yourself murdered as security. It's the fine line between pissing people off and intentionally letting yourself die for the good of the round.

you cannot tell if someone is a gangster unless you implant them (headbashing was removed for gangsters I believe), so unless they have obvious gang shit on them, you can't tell if they're hostile or not, therefore you can't trust them, therefore you kill them.

It will be like being a death squad, with worse gear, likely initially being ambushed, being expected to kill absolutely everyone and needing to make all this hold together for 30 min to an hour while you hunt locker man.

Souuuuuunds greeeeaaaat.

Sec storms med bay scenario I posed on github was too conservative. Really they should storm atmospherics or toxins and annihilate the station systematically. Arrest procedure is a waste of time once you use the implants. Slightly tempted to see the sec firebang team these people deserve.

Zilenan91 wrote:It was a mistake to close the limited implants pr. The only reason rev is bearable with the implant roulette is because of how fast and how many people the revheads can convert. There aren't opposing teams who can take your converts so you don't fuck yourself if you flash someone, and that means that the round is faster and more exciting because a horde rapidly grows and assaults the brig in a big showdown with most of the revheads usually being alive. This doesn't ever happen in Gang because of how it works, so this gives sec all the time in the world to roll up to cargo and start spamming implants. This is a massive design flaw that can't really be solved without limiting the implants sec can get or completely redesigning gang.

The real reason security has all the time in the world is because gangs don't have any incentive to dominate quickly. They play a ridiculous game of chicken where the person who doms last wins, so the round lasts way longer than it should and security only has "implant all" to do.

Cheimon wrote: The real reason security has all the time in the world is because gangs don't have any incentive to dominate quickly. They play a ridiculous game of chicken where the person who doms last wins, so the round lasts way longer than it should and security only has "implant all" to do.

Yeah this is a serious issue tbh.
With old gang, and no dom limits, there was every reason to aggressively dom.
With 2 dom limit (often 1 because of shuttle calls and that shit), there is literally no reason to drop a dom until you're 100% sure you'll win (ie: everyone else is dead), or you're forced to (ie: another gang drops their dom).

I made a few suggestions about that but eh.

Remove the dom limit. Problem solved.

That'll just cause infinite extension by people jaunting away or jetpacking into space to drop yet another dom.

With multiple ways to fuck with the shuttle I think the real issue is dominator defence is so silly deadly all the gang heads end up dead unless they basically control the station.

I don't think this is a bad thing but then I don't think gang is in all that bad a state just needing a few more gang gimmicks again like carp.

Not even sure how much of an issue the round type is having since its stats don't even track properly.