The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

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Oldman Robustin
 
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The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:42 am #168206

Currently on Github there is a "clash of ideas" going on between my proposed cult update and Joan's proposed cult update. https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/16778 and https://github.com/tgstation/-tg-station/pull/16791 respectively.

These PR's take cult in very different directions and at the moment there's a vigorous debate about which one should be adopted. I wrote up a small novel that compared the major differences and I will add any rebuttal that Joan may make to this OP if she chooses to make one. I will also add a poll in a day or two once our PR's are completely fleshed out and people have had a chance to review them.

Comparison of the differences between our PRs:


1) My PR trims more runes in an effort to make cult more newbie-friendly. Joan trims some runes but expands the power of others. Neither of us have strong feelings about timestop but I am adamant that the return of stunmines is unacceptable. Stunmines and Blood drain are both cancerous mechanics that dunk people simply by spamming runes in a section of maint and fucking over anyone who steps on them.

In my system runes are merely a means to an end and they will pose no threat unless an invoke is there activating the very same rune you're looking at... giving the cult hunter an obvious indication that the rune could pose a threat. With blood drain and stunmine runes, if they aren't invisible (and they probably are) they are still designed to ruin you while some asshole cultist sits off screen laughing. The methods to remove runes efficiently are few and far between, and if the cult spaces the null rod and then hides behind a wall of stun runes, I'd probably just blow my brains out before attempting to navigate that shitshow. There are also plenty of other useless runes like blind and deafen that only serve to clog up the rune menu and make cult an ever more obtuse experience for new players. There are 100 proofs I could offer for why keeping shit runes around is bad for everyone, but hopefully you've gotten the point by now.

2) My PR summons all talismans through a single rune. This means that even a baby cultist won't have to ask "how do I get talismans" anymore. Considering that cult balance is completely based on the power of talismans, I felt that this was a great solution. It helps remove one of the cult's biggest weaknesses (deadweight newbie cultists who are more likely to get caught than actually do something useful). Comparison (Top is Joan's, Bottom is Mine): http://imgur.com/a/u6DYG

Joan's PR makes talisman construction a matter of hitting your rune of choice with paper. I felt this was the inferior option because a baby cultist is not going to know that mechanic and there won't be any obvious indicators telling them that. Not even roundstart text is as helpful as having "CREATE TALISMAN" staring a cultist in the face every time they prepare to draw a rune. Joan's method is probably better than the current system, but I'm very certain that mine is the superior method between our PR's. As I already pointed out, only roughly half of runes are even capable of being made into talismans and right now under Joan's PR the only way for a newbie cultist to find that out is by drawing up the runes and inspecting or hitting them to see which ones stick. With my PR you've just got this nice simple menu that pops up with a straightforward list of what talismans are available to the cult, no guesswork involved.

3) Joan's PR makes the nar sie rune appear faster and cost less health. Joan's Nar Sie rune appears in about 5 seconds. My PR also makes it short, to 40 seconds, but also summons a 3x3 grid of 60hp ~thematic~ barriers to prevent anyone from bumping the summoner. This gives the crew a chance to act against a cult rushing out nar-sie but also means that the summoning won't be interrupted by accident. This is another aspect where I am extremely confident that my approach will produce better rounds.

4) Joan makes cult chat akin to a hivemind that requires no items or rune interaction to communicate. I keep the system that requires a tome to communicate but allows for 'emergency' communications without a rune or book if you're unrestrained, at the cost of a moderate amount of brute damage that is likely to draw blood, and attention. My issue with Joan's version is that you might as well cut the entire deconversion system too. When cult has a universal hivemind, standard procedure is for security to execute cultists on the spot because they will be shouting for help the moment sec they are arrested and with cult able to summon their pals from anyone in the world... its too much of a risk. I believe that my approach gives cult more depth and I'm generally just not a fan of cultists being able to waltz around and chat with their entire team effortlessly. The cult should be SECRETIVE and for me that means at least pulling out a tome if you're going to talk in the cult chatroom. I addressed the issue of emergency communication in my PR by adding a new prompt that will make sure new cultists dont cut themselves up at roundstart trying to figure out how to talk. Of all the major distinctions that remain in our PR's, this is the one I care the least about.

5) As an extension of #1: my PR moves certain niche runes into talisman status. There's no reason to have summon tome runes AND summon tome talismans. To ease tome distribution, my PR gives a tome with every successful conversion, if you still need more you can draw a talisman that can summon up to two. This makes the cult system MUCH, MUCH cleaner. With Joan's system I have to scroll my mouse 3 times so I can try to find the EMP rune as its lodged between 'drain life' and 'deafen'. In my PR, the entirety of cult magic is now neatly condensed into a manageable set of runes and a more robust talisman creation/selection system.

6) I also add color-coding to talismans. Since there a couple new additions, it makes more sense than ever to give cultists an easy way to distinguish between different talisman types/ordinary paper/etc. There is also a new "Horror" talisman that will cause the victim to hallucinate for a few minutes. Gives cultists a way to subtly undermine security without having to stun and carve their face off.

There are many other small differences (I buff EMP rune, Joan nerfs EMP talisman, etc.) but those are small enough that I would either compromise if it become a sticking point or its such a small distinction that nobody cares.

When it's all said and done I'm very proud of the work I've done in my PR and I hope that with careful consideration people will understand the logic behind the choices I've made. My position is that my years of playing cult and mastering its mechanics have given me an insight into what works and what doesn't... not just for me, but for the hundreds of cultists I've played with to learn where the mode has strengths and where it suffers. Joan preferred the newcult system to oldcult, and her PR tries to bring more of newcult into oldcult (universal hivemind, invisible stun mines). My view is that the newcult supports got their chance at-bat despite significant opposition from the community. The newcult mode was an unmitigated failure. I think it's only fair that the oldcult people like myself get a hand at the reins for a while to make intelligent improvements to the mode.
Last edited by Oldman Robustin on Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ShadowDimentio
 
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ShadowDimentio » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:47 am #168208

A tl;dr would be nice

Ok finished reading. Both have some very similar ideas, and I think yours edges what I'd prefer better. Stunmines sound very annoying, and the hivemind conversion antag niche is already filled by sling.
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">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby TechnoAlchemist » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:56 am #168209

I think cult is bad and should probably be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up to not be not unfun

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:57 am #168210

Oldman PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to list your changes and ONLY your changes (without reasoning for each) in an organized fashion like Joan does in his PR's OP. There should be at most one or two sentences per change, and bullet points make it very readable.

I am still not 100% if I know everything that your PR does, because you refuse to do this and instead make paragraphs and paragraphs of rants. You are only hurting yourself by not doing this.
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ShadowDimentio » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:58 am #168211

TechnoAlchemist wrote:I think cult is bad and should probably be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up to not be not unfun


Never worked once in any of the dozen times this has been tried

Please, get the fuck out
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz

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Oldman Robustin
 
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 2:01 am #168213

PKPenguin321 wrote:Oldman PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE learn to list your changes and ONLY your changes (without reasoning for each) in an organized fashion like Joan does in his PR's OP. There should be at most one or two sentences per change, and bullet points make it very readable.

I am still not 100% if I know everything that your PR does, because you refuse to do this and instead make paragraphs and paragraphs of rants. You are only hurting yourself by not doing this.


Fiiiiiine /scratches off another hour spent on this PR


Edit: Done, now you owe me 24hrs. of no shitposting on Github.

Edit 2: Tested both PR's, I mean cmon the choice should be obvious: http://imgur.com/a/u6DYG . In Joan's system you can't even tell which are able to be made into talismans until you've drawn every freaking rune.
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Steelpoint » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:10 am #168225

I'm edging more towards Oldman's PR simply due to its efforts to streamline the process for newer players without massively making it a case of 'too dumb to lose'.
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PKPenguin321
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:22 am #168226

now that oldman has actually presented his changes i'm more inclined to go with his. however, i would also like to see Joan's teleport rune mechanics, EMP buff, Fabricate Shell buff, reveal rune changes, armor talisman change, drain life change, blood boil change

if we could mush these two PRs together that'd be cool
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i have three other top secret characters as well.
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ShadowDimentio » Tue Apr 12, 2016 3:30 am #168228

Oldman was the one buffing EMP and shells, while Joan was nerfing EMP and buffing shells a little less.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:03 am #168232

ShadowDimentio wrote:Oldman was the one buffing EMP and shells, while Joan was nerfing EMP and buffing shells a little less.

nah, joan is buffing on-floor EMPs, oldman is removing them outright (which is mostly why i dislike his talisman system)
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:45 am #168235

No it clearly says in my PR that I'm buffing EMP Runes PKP, plz u promis no more shitpost.

Directly from the changelog you told me to make:

"tweak: The Electromagnetic Disruption rune is sigificantly stronger."
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ShadowDimentio » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:18 am #168237

C U C K E D
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby PKPenguin321 » Tue Apr 12, 2016 5:39 am #168241

i still like joan's better :P
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 10:52 am #168252

Considering a buff for EMP even further: Increases the power per nearly cultist.

A single cultist would have power a little above where it is now.

9x cultists would be shuttle down the entire wing of the station.

Mass power outage preceeding a cult attack would be thematic as fuck son.
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby asskek » Tue Apr 12, 2016 1:03 pm #168259

that sounds cool do it robustin

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Amelius » Tue Apr 12, 2016 4:17 pm #168282

I'd say that the biggest issue I have, is that, by moving so many core functions to talisman-only, it necessitates paper to even do the simplest of cult actions. There isn't enough accessible paper on Boxstation to create or upkeep a cult when you have to spend 1 to veil, 1 to reveal, and 1 to provide a tome to each conversion. The whole point of veil/reveal/summon tome runes was to not necessitate wasting effectively unrenewable resources in non-urgent circumstances.

Not sure about removing blind runes, they're extraordinarily useful in a defensive posture, even if not that often used. Teleport Other has always had plenty of theoretical potential as well for creating a decentralized cult (working in single-person 'cells' with a main base off the station Z-level); if they worked in transmitters and receivers rather than the current system of randomly sending the person to any location with the same text, they'd be more viable.

Love the talisman of horror, seems like a good way of faking changelings and throwing off security.

EMP rune buff seems neat, I presume the talisman remains the same, correct? Just don't go too overboard.

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Tue Apr 12, 2016 6:53 pm #168329

There's an 80% chance I will remove veil/reveal and make it into a multi-use special toggle (if theres some hidden it always reveals, only if all are revealed will it hide them) just to save space. Joan did this with the rune version after I pointed out that a flat toggle would really fuck up bases where runes get drawn while others are still obscured.

Paper is actually really common once you start paying attention to where the bins are. If there was enough support for it I could justify removing the paper req. altogether and just make the talisman summoning work without it.

EMP talisman is untouched in my PR, nerfed in Joan's (we both wanted rune to be the stronger effect so I took the buff approach, she went with nerf). My EMP rune proobably goes overboard since it would allow a 3x3 chant (lol good luck pulling that off though) to EMP an entire wing of the station. But part of me really likes that and it seems like it fits the cult theme really well, power down an entire department before swarming it with cultists and constructs. I'd like to see that.

I incorporated Joan's teleport rework so both PR's have the improved version.

I agree runes like blind and teleport other had their unique purposes, but this is about making it manageable to new players. When I opened the tome at the start of my PR and realized I had to scroll 3 times to get to the bottom of the rune list, I realized Cult would always be shit for new players until they got a manageable set of runes to use.
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Zilenan91 » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:02 am #168391

Why don't we just throw cult out until someone can design it to be good and not start constant mergewars
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Just replace both their arms with chainsaws.

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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ShadowDimentio » Wed Apr 13, 2016 12:04 am #168392

ShadowDimentio wrote:
TechnoAlchemist wrote:I think cult is bad and should probably be scrapped and rebuilt from the ground up to not be not unfun


Never worked once in any of the dozen times this has been tried

Please, get the fuck out
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
-Stickymayhem

"Drank a cocktail of orange Gatorade and mint mouthwash on accident. Pretty sure I'm going to die, I am on the verge of vomit. It was nice knowing you guys"
-PKPenguin321

"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

"This is like being cooked alive in a microwave oven which utilises the autistic end of the light spectrum to cook you."
-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
-Anonmare

"Then why did you get that boob job?"
-DrPillzRedux

"You take that back you colonial mongrel"
-Docprofsmith

"I don't care whether or not someone with an IQ 3 standard deviations below my own thinks they enjoy Wizard rounds."
-Malkraz

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ChangelingRain
 
Joined: Thu Apr 17, 2014 3:36 pm
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Byond Username: ChangelingRain
Github Username: ChangelingRain

Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby ChangelingRain » Wed Apr 13, 2016 1:53 am #168412

Stun mines are GONETM; they might return, someday, as a specific rune meant for being a mine, but not in my PR.

Also, interesting(?) fact: cult comms don't work while cuffed or stunned.
Plays Joan Lung and various AIs and cyborgs with mythology and magical creature-themed names. Joan on IRC.
earth-clawing illuminati trans girl

Incomptinence
 
Joined: Fri May 02, 2014 3:01 am
Byond Username: Incomptinence

Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Incomptinence » Wed Apr 13, 2016 6:52 am #168433

I appreciate oldman's simplification approach and while I knew things like say teleport other or item or however it worked existed it was pretty much never worth making. Now it will be rolled into the generic teleport rune and people might even use it just for something slightly convenient.

The amount of unused magic and cult stuff was disgusting it really needs to be simplified to stop churning out dull revlike rounds.

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Oldman Robustin
 
Joined: Tue May 13, 2014 2:18 pm
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Re: The future of CULT: 2 competing updates (LONG)

Postby Oldman Robustin » Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:06 pm #168467

If I get around to it today:

1) Make the EMP rune scale with chanters

2) Merge conceal/reveal talismans into a single multi-use talisman

3) Imbue'ing a talisman will no longer destroy the rune, but I may add a few seconds onto the channeling or a minor health cost to keep it balanced (talisman factories were an issue with old-oldcult).

4) Maybe, MAYBE if I get the feeling that people want another defensive options, I'll make an alternative to stunmines that will allow a cult to protect their base without being cancerous to go up against.
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