/tg/Station 13

The issue of people observing for ghost roles rather than joining the station proper was raised on github recently.

What makes playing as a golem more appealing that readying up normally? What would it take to make normal human play more appealing again?

I have my own ideas/answers but I would like to hear from others first. Obviously this question does not apply to everyone.

New, interesting, difficult, isolated, underdogs. Also many of would have been willing to observe anyway.

The purpose of the game is to be enjoyed and if there is only like 1 human on the station it still does not bloody matter.

You would honestly have more problems with the people waiting until after round start to latejoin skewing game types really.

Ashwalker is easy, free pseudo-antag that 90% of the time gets to go cause trouble on the station after jumping an easy kill shaft miner.

I liked the pod people because it helped me dick around and learn some botany.

I'd imagine the free golems are sort of an in-between of the two, you can dick around with mining with a disposable character and also dunk people that get near you.

It's more spontaneous and interesting than playing a station job. Take Bartender for example, you sit there making drinks of various utility, maybe break up a barfight too, and otherwise have nothing to do but do that or go to cargo to get lethal ammo. Sec and many other jobs are the same but without anything but walking around, getting killed, or preparing for any conflict that's likely not to happen.

Lavaland jobs, on the other hand, are interesting because they're so spontaneous and different. For Ash Walkers you kill lava mobs, which is fun in and of itself because it's a good challenge in melee, but not only that you gib their dead bodies into your tendril to make more of you so you can do it more efficiently and eventually take over the station if you're lucky. It's so differenet and so spontaneous that it's a fantastic break from the norm.

I myself don't understand the appeal of golems since it's just mining but worse but it's liked because it feels different.

A lot of the issue stems from the fact is that rounds have no escalation of any kind. In Traitor for example, they either murderbone and die, or they do a gimmick and either succeed or fail. Outstandingly good gimmicks aside, the plateau for excitement tends to peak after the first kill where it's just a constant state of stagnance with nothing really changing or interesting happening with it.

This is the same case for nearly every server, and there's only one that has really solved it, that being Absolution. It's that 40k server I've gone on and on about because it's done some fucking amazing things in terms of game flow with their RTD system. They have regular antagonists like we have that are turned up to 11 and lethal as fuck (usually in good ways), but beyond that there's the RTD system. The RTD system lets people join in at 20 minutes into a faction that they've applied for, this being space marines, tyranids, plague marines, Kriegsmen, Tau, Eldar, Orks, whatever, and because of this influx of people at the 25-30 minute mark it causes this beautiful climax of destruction where the RTDs are murdering people and causing all sorts of Mayhem, with two of the factions getting people who died from round and RTD antagonists back in to keep fighting while the rest either battle between each other, interact, or purge said xenos who are getting others back in. It's a great system not because of how it lets people back in the round but because of how the game flows around it. It starts off quiet, and then the action rises as the round antagonists do stuff, then BAM Tyranids and Orks and death up the ass as Space Marines and sisters of battle and what remains of the Guard from the outpost are fighting to their last breath. I'm honestly not specifically sure how such a system could work on /tg/ if we ever wanted to implement it, but if we did we could likely take from some of the Syndicate factions on the wiki page for what people could become.

If they want to observe and hope there's a lavamoon thing to play, let them.

I liked playing as a prisoner from the crashed shuttle because it brought a new challenge of trying to survive. The note of what you did to get into the situation like 'Murder' was a nice RP touch.

Because people tend to be more friendly and RP in Lavaland roles... mostly because Lavaland is deadly as fuck and you know everyone you spawned with is an ally. Like when I spawn as Atmos tech, theres a small chance that my fellow atmos tech will be a tator and try to kill or frame me. When I spawn as an Ash Walker, I know that ligger next to me is a bro till death.

Kor wrote:The issue of people observing for ghost roles rather than joining the station proper was raised on github recently.

What makes playing as a golem more appealing that readying up normally? What would it take to make normal human play more appealing again?

I have my own ideas/answers but I would like to hear from others first. Obviously this question does not apply to everyone.

It's like being an assistant where you actually have a purpose. Low commitment, low responsibility, but still plenty to do.

I think part of the problem is that lavaland is kind of exclusive to like 3 dudes, you're doing a great job with it but it's a ton of effort to really make a high quality experience that like half of a small department can enjoy. Going golem/Ashwalker/etc. is a way to enjoy that content. It's instant gratification, you get to go in and get meaningful progress for your role and fight for your life alongside players that you will form a deeper bond with.

If this is a big problem to you, I'd consider making some kind of special expedition group aimed at assistants. A lavaland expedition shuttle would depart about 5 minutes into the round, and automatically return ~20 minutes after that, repeating the cycle until round end. The emphasis wouldn't be on mining, but rather on exploration and combat.

Oldman Robustin wrote:I'd consider making some kind of special expedition group aimed at assistants. A lavaland expedition shuttle would depart about 5 minutes into the round, and automatically return ~20 minutes after that, repeating the cycle until round end. The emphasis wouldn't be on mining, but rather on exploration and combat.

Sounds a lot like what Gateways were intended to be, except with a known destination and not quite as meme-y locations.

Either way, still not a bad idea at all.

Anyway if they build up enough to go to/invade the station haven't things come full circle and they are now interacting with the station?

I've only played as golem not sure what the others can do.

Honestly theres nothing actually wrong with people taking ghost roles as opposed to normal job roles. If the ghost roles interact with the station like most of them currently do, it keeps things as interesting as if they were an actual crewmember. The problem is usually those roles are relatively isolated, which makes them not interact very often.

There shouldn't be any roundstart roles that aren't crew or antags

The idea to put player-controlled mobs on away missions to make them spicier is a horrible one, because away missions suck

free golems in particular feel like they're their own game mode
they're colonists and being a colonist can be fun, there's not much else in the game quite like it

The question should also be would these players have even played the round or readyed up at the start if the Golem position was not on offer?

You won't find it uncommon for people to observe the rounds, for one of a half a dozen reasons, with the intention of watching the game and hoping to be selected for a ghost role, from Aliens to Ninja's, Deathsquad to Abductors.

The reason being those positions are more unpredictable and less structured than most station jobs.

Lavaland is new and refreshing. Golems allow you to go full-nerd and RND yourself from 0 to 100, Ashwalkers allow you to stab things and Prisoners are a survival adventure (Nearly made it back this round, found the vendor-ruin and got myself a suit-sensor thing to find the miners!). Jobs on the station are still the same they were 2 years ago, mostly.

The novelty will wear off here, too.

Yea the alternative to giving not allowing the crew to send an "expedition" to the lavaland early-round would just be to have these roles not available until the 20 minute mark or something.

ShadowDimentio wrote:If they want to observe and hope there's a lavamoon thing to play, let them.

Why do anything

paprika wrote:There shouldn't be any roundstart roles that aren't crew or antags

The idea to put player-controlled mobs on away missions to make them spicier is a horrible one, because away missions suck

It's that exact attitude that makes it suck treating players like garbage NPC mobs because they didn't spawn in our sacred station 13 is in part one of the things that I think got away missions disabled.

See saegrimr going saw on syndicates inside an inescapable box. There is a player behind yonder mob.

Simple, just ban roundstart observers from any roles whatsoever. Either only give them to those that have died (and for the first people to die this lessens the rage that can come from being gibbed 5 minutes in) or make them antag-esque roles where you need to check "yes" to be randomly considered.

Incomptinence wrote:See saegrimr going saw on syndicates inside an inescapable box. There is a player behind yonder mob.

What?

Pilgrim wrote:Simple, just ban roundstart observers from any roles whatsoever. Either only give them to those that have died (and for the first people to die this lessens the rage that can come from being gibbed 5 minutes in) or make them antag-esque roles where you need to check "yes" to be randomly considered.

Metaphorical what? Are you really suggesting we ban people for observing?
People would just spawn as assistant and space themselves.

No, not an actual ban. Just make it so that when you select the "observe" option upon joining the game you're prevented from being selected to become ashlanders, golems, and so on. These roles should be reserved to people who got fucked over early on or for when the round is getting stagnant or when an antag validhunted the entire station.

I doubt people would go ahead, join the round, and space themselves so that they have a chance to play Dwarf Fortress with golems. I'm sure there will be a few dedicated people who will do so anyway, but if they do that means they joined the server in order to play as them and there's no point in stopping them. Stopping roundstart observers from playing as special roles will do enough to stop lazy players looking for a gimmick.

Pilgrim wrote:I doubt people would go ahead, join the round, and space themselves so that they have a chance to play Dwarf Fortress with golems.

You'd be surprised. Roundstart suicides are not uncommon.

They aren't, but there's usually a reason aside from "i was waiting to roll antag". Regardless, there's going to be a group of people who will only join the server so they can play a special role, and there's really nothing that can be done to stop them. Only through inconvenience can we stop more casual players from trying to get a special role early on.

Here's how you stop them: Make Observers unable to use the lavaland spawns, since they're apparently slighly different from the normal Dead

I pointed out roundstart ghosting and suicide a long time ago, and how it contributes to powergaming; people not wanting to play to RP or do civilian jobs, just fuck shit up. There's a reason many "bigwigs" known for being "teh robust" pick assistant 90% of the time.

But when I suggested that maybe roundstart ghosts or suiciders shouldn't be allow to play mid-round antags, everyone disagreed with me.

Ah yes the perfect route to valids! Literally not spawning in!

Totally different issues man. I get the overlap with suicides but if were are calling observe a power gamer strategy that's pretty much insane.

It's a symptom, not cause.

Guys, the question was not "how do we stop people having fun the wrong way," it was "what makes this role fun, and how can we use those lessons to improve normal civillian play?"

You really can't take a rarely played role's shtick and translate it over to a normal job.

Things like Golem's are a exotic position to take and that's the allure to them. Its new, exciting and comes with danger and to a degree fun!

Kor wrote:Guys, the question was not "how do we stop people having fun the wrong way," it was "what makes this role fun, and how can we use those lessons to improve normal civillian play?"

People are usually forced to cooperate, it is not the FFA the station tends to end up in.


I always feel there needs to be slight reward for surviving a shift, to make people's lives matter to them and make them actively work together towards surviving, instead of trying for the 1/10 chance to disarm that murderbonerer to get his loot. Even if it's just a small easily visible number incrementing on their ID, displaying their number of shifts survived. It will get people to at least try to survive sometimes.

Personally I would prefer having it matter, like linking it to the Antag-rolls. Every survived shift adds one to the counter, every time you roll antag subtracts one. If you are at 0, no antag for you. Most people will still always be positive and it adds "real" consequence to dying. Also solves the thousands of suicides of non-antag assistants in front of HoP's every damn shift. And throw in a "always count as survived" for Security, and the problem of 0 Security rounds is solved as well.

In the end, people will have to work together to survive, leading to more interaction, backstabbing and drama. And some might even react to threats by hiding away for once instead of pulling out a toolbox.

>new content
New content, despite the best efforts of coders to incrementally add pieces of new content to the game, lavaworld is the first major expansion featuring many different content pathways a player can invest their time in at the start of a round for enjoyment and satisfaction. Most content pathways in the game have been done many times by players and new things are just fun. Making new content for station jobs is understandably hard, trying to make the same level of content for each job is not a task I would wish on or expect from anyone. You could gradually as """""""""""design lead""""""""""""" bring content that involves other departments with the lavaworld instead, which might convince players to invest their time in a station job.

Maybe engineers could build lava dams to collect energy, scientists could have an additional content pathway that requires them to be planetside, etc it's a still relatively untouched environment with potential for easy(ier) content additions compared to finding something else to fit in on the space station. One bonus to implementing new content pathways for station jobs involving the lavaworld is that they have the potential to interact with the ghost spawner role content. We basically learned again that new things are fun, maybe it's time to figure out what new easy things can be implemented with little fuss.

re: new content pathways though, using supermatter as an example, while it's an autism project that some players definitely like attempting every now and then, it's not often used one because it's a bit esoteric to set up, secondly because the time required to invest in it before it returns satisfaction to the player is longer than most rounds last before devolving into chaos/end. Lavaworld ghost content is good because it throws players into the challenge/satisfaction loop right away so there's no risk of having lost the time you spent while not getting any fun out of it.

>pve
Mix of PvE/coop and limited PvP. Tastes will differ but a good portion of players must enjoy working with a player towards something otherwise everyone would just do autism projects all day or hit each other with a toolbox. All the ghost spawner roles feature this.

There's also something to be said about the golem and vault roles being rather zen. There are usually no PvP distractions and it's a change of pace peacefully working the entire round towards a goal with other people without having some sort of calamity, antag-caused or otherwise, waste the time you spent. I mentioned this above with the supermatter example, but golem/vault roles are content pathways which players can feel very safe in investing their time in. This is an important aspect of lavaworld, maybe not on par with it being new and shiny, but once it stops being new and shiny players might still be convinced to play these roles because it's a nice zen usage of their time.

It's obviously not too easy to transfer a feeling of zen and avoidance of pvp shtf to station jobs, in fact it's probably not desirable. I'm not entirely sure how to go about this one. Most of the jobs on station involve solo content, at best xenobio and engineering autism projects can get together for some coop. All of them are by design vulnerable to PvP. That's not a bad thing, maybe the station content pathways should just remain this way. If new content pathways are designed involving going on the lavaworld, it could be slanted towards PvE content and in any case increasing the amount of pathways will dilute the focus of PvP/shtf anyway.

imblyings wrote:You could gradually as """""""""""design lead""""""""""""" bring content that involves other departments with the lavaworld instead, which might convince players to invest their time in a station job.

Maybe we should rethink how the new content is added, so we don't have to work backwards trying to get more people involved when they make a run for it leaving the rest behind?

What was the last content added that was for "everyone". That enriched the "station experience", not only added more to already existing parts of it? Was it Skub?

I don't see any other department but Cargo ever contributing to building on lavaland unless there was a lavaland station or using the Gateway to teleport down there. You just need to jump through too many hoops to get down there unless you have access.

content that affects everyone and enriches the 'experience' is almost a meme phrase

the closest you will get is some sort of new global mechanic that features content in itself or causes new interactions between content pathways

it's 3am in the morning I can't think of any, there probably aren't any recently added ones, unless you want to include kazes latest attempt at dismemberment but that doesn't directly affect the appeal of station jobs and the current content pathways they have

better access is needed yes

You are boxed in both figuratively and literally when trying to add new stuff to the station. There simply isn't much you can do within the confines of the map, or without inadvertantly unbalancing one of a dozen modes.

Nor can you just declare you're going to radically alter something without pissing everyone off.

I am headed slowly in the "improve things for everyone" direction though. Lavaland is as much a test and proof of concept for bigger things as it is a mining replacement.

Kor wrote:Guys, the question was not "how do we stop people having fun the wrong way," it was "what makes this role fun, and how can we use those lessons to improve normal civillian play?"

I already answered this further up. It's because those roles are new and unique. There's no experience in the game that quite compares to settling a barren asteroid with just a few pickaxes and a mining point redeemer.

The only way I can see transitioning that into normal play is if we did the alternate on-planet map idea that was suggested a while back.

imblyings wrote:content that affects everyone and enriches the 'experience' is almost a meme phrase

People already brought up making Bartender more useful.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Kor wrote:Guys, the question was not "how do we stop people having fun the wrong way," it was "what makes this role fun, and how can we use those lessons to improve normal civillian play?"

I already answered this further up. It's because those roles are new and unique. There's no experience in the game that quite compares to settling a barren asteroid with just a few pickaxes and a mining point redeemer.

The only way I can see transitioning that into normal play is if we did the alternate on-planet map idea that was suggested a while back.

J U N G L E S T A T I O N

I observe quite frequently because I enjoy having the game on another screen to glance at while I'm doing something else. There's a lot of hilarious situations that can come up during a round and it's usually pretty damn funny. That said, I also see and talk to the people who usually pick the free golem shit at round start. It mostly seems that ,the players I've talked too anyway, they enjoy the sense of freedom. The ability to build,mine,expand without any interference and the camaraderie of fellow golems seems to be what they're looking for. You could argue that you can do that on the station, but you also run the high chance of someone fucking your shit up just because they can.

I also believe that people want to try out lavaland and let's be honest, it's basically a three man expansion where death is highly likely if you're new. Going free golem or ass walker lets you explore with little burden of responsibility, even less than that of a miner. You could increase access to lavaland and allow more players to get to it, but I feel that there's just not enough content to warrant letting the station flood out into it.

The same thing happened when pAIs were first introduced, then again with drones and again with holos, each time there was this outcry about observers and each time all went back to normal when the novelty died out.

Free antag token, no responsibility, doesn't contribute to the round.

You have to make the jobs a bit more exciting on the station. Every job on the station that isn't a head role is just following a list.
But that shit is hard to make.

Alternative solution is to make it so that the jobs need other jobs to functions well, like mining and science. 'Force' every job to walk across the station to function well. Make toxins walk across the station to atmos. Make the secluded jobs need others to rely on.
I've had fun playing as a janitor when I'm asked to walk into the brig to clean the blood on the floor and then something big happens, like a bomb goes off and I come out unscathed. Or ops comes blasting in.

Also, have the assistants have a job that isn't already taken by anyone else. Like being a test subject for some fucked up shit that has a 20% survival rate or something. Or throw in more shit in space.

Prisoners: the worst ghost role, if you spawn late and the 2 flashlights are already gone you may as well stay in deadchat, nobody plays them
Vault creatures: botanists IN HELL
Golems: basically scientists with easier access to minerals, IN HELL
Ash walkers: assistants with spears IN HELL. No really, if you want the ash walker experience just join as lizardman greyshirt, grab a spear and go explore lavaland with a pal or 2

As you can see there is no unique gameplay about ghost roles that can be ported to station jobs, the main reason why they're popular right now is novelty and, well, lavaland itself. Everybody loves lavaland and wants a shot at it, you can notice that the 3 miner slots are always taken at roundstart even in lowpop, while with the old asteroid you were lucky to have a single latejoin miner at all.

PKPenguin321 wrote:

Kor wrote:Guys, the question was not "how do we stop people having fun the wrong way," it was "what makes this role fun, and how can we use those lessons to improve normal civillian play?"

I already answered this further up. It's because those roles are new and unique. There's no experience in the game that quite compares to settling a barren asteroid with just a few pickaxes and a mining point redeemer.

The only way I can see transitioning that into normal play is if we did the alternate on-planet map idea that was suggested a while back.

>Settling a barren asteroid.

Maybe increase the default shaft miner slots. Instead of 3, maybe have 6 or 8. Put enough suits/gear on the asteroid base itself. With that many you could actually accomplish something maybe. Groups of 3 could fight together and instead of just dumping resources for science maybe have enough to do something for themselves. Maybe add a small hydroponics room next to that break room with the microwave so they can grow stuff.

Even adding more mining supplies would help. More suits/knives/accelerators on the mining base would make it easier to change jobs. Give the HOP extra mining vouchers for new recruits. That way assistants who didn't get one of the 3 limited miner slots could actually have gear.

yackemflam wrote:'Force' every job to walk across the station to function well. Make toxins walk across the station to atmos. Make the secluded jobs need others to rely on.

I seem to recall a long time ago you usually couldn't build your own chem dispenser in R&D with just the acid they started with, or it at least took some scrounging to find the right stuff for it. People bitched about having to walk 30 seconds to chemistry to get a beaker of acid. It was some shit.

Kor, planetstation13 when?
Lavaland shows that pve content can be FUN, and honestly it seems it would be much easier on a station set on solid ground then in space filled with nothing but carp, and nothing.

Looking to other codebases, CM, which is the most popular server for this game, went to a planet map about a year ago(?) and it's soooo much better than the old space map. It allows for so much more creativity and freedom for players.

lumipharon wrote:Kor, planetstation13 when?
Lavaland shows that pve content can be FUN, and honestly it seems it would be much easier on a station set on solid ground then in space filled with nothing but carp, and nothing.

shilling https://tgstation13.science/phpBB/viewt ... f=9&t=6446

I've only played Golem like twice by now and Ash-walker like once, so I have limited experience on these two.

Golems were a lot of fun since you sort of start with just a very basic base and then expand and build everything yourself. And it seems that sometimes Golems can play completly isolated without even coming into contact with humans. It's a bit like with the drones on the old abondoned station, you scavenge for resources and try to repair/build things.

Ash-Walkers seem to be a lot more aggressive, they do offer a pretty unqiue experience and are basically antags by default by hating humans and such, though I also feel like they make mining just a bit too dangerous since miners will be hunted and the station cut off from mining resources.

But outside of golems and ash-walkers there're other reasons to observe. Observing at round start is the only way to become a Wizard's apprentice, or become a Syndicate Borg and party with Fluke Ops, or become a Holoparasite which can be fun, or become an early pAI or an early Blobbernaut, etc. etc. etc.

Hell, one time I observed and not even 2 minutes into the round I became a revenant for the first time ever, dunno if it was random or admin spawned, but I had a ton of fun.

There're many fun roles available only via observing instead of readying and these roles are all pretty unqiue, have their own fun mechanics and you don't get much chance to actually do them.

Also both golems and ash-walkers still have novelty to them, they're new and shiny.

Golems before they got R&D were fun because they had good progression and teamowrk. Starting with primitive tools and working to get better ones while building a base with others without any fear of suddenly getting killed by a changeling or getting recruited into gang or revolution.

Currently with R&D golems pretty much lost that progression they had earlier since now it's just a teamwork rush to get R&D up and then "go do whatever". The good side in this is the same as above though, no fear of getting suddenly murdered or recruited and you can focus on building fun stuff and having safely fun with a group who you can trust. Of course it's possible for some traitor to come to murder there but that's really rare and pointless.

One other thing with observable roles is that you can check the roundtype before going in as golem. Just like science and mining as normal jobs, being a golem gets more fun the longer the round lasts. That's why it's easy to check first as a ghost if the round type happens to be revolution or wizard before going in as golem to ensure a fun and probably not less than 20 minute round of mining, science and building stuff.