Can we make Space Ninja less stupidly broken? Please?

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:00 pm

At some point someone decided this random event wasn't completely ruining enough rounds yet and decided to make him even more unstoppable. Invisibility and energy consumption for the ninja have been changed since I started playing here and they went from "Wizard with an esword" to "Invisible unkillable gods" since I've been playing here.

I just witnessed a single ninja wipe out an entire cult by himself without ever becoming visible. He managed to fire invisible auto-aiming projectiles, cut us all to pieces... while fully invisible... an artificer used magic missile but the ninja remained completely hidden and untargetable... and then he got right back up (because ninjas come with stun removal) and proceeded to carve up 2 artificers and 3 juggernauts without ever appearing once. Just an complete massacre that shit all over an hour of building action.

I'm fine with sending a powerful entity to the station, but holy shit sending a wizard on steroids that can wipe out the entire station while 100% invisible is just stupid.

The most common sense changes you can make are:

1) Remove invisibility. There's a reason traitor invisibility was removed from almost every build of SS13 years ago, it's the definition of anti-fun.
2) Make the stun projectiles dumbfire like fireball and alien neurotoxin. The current iteration doesnt even require you to pick targets in a menu... you just click the button a couple times and everyone in the room is now on the ground. Does someone as immensely powerful as the ninja really need autoaim silent stun missiles?
3) Remove the built-in stun removal and require the untargeted jaunt as the ninjas only escape mechanism. Make sure the untargeted jaunt removes at least 20% of the default powercell so it doesnt get spammed either.

Yes I ded. Yes I mad. Ninjas are an incredibly unsatisfying event for everyone who isn't the ninja. The only thing holding ninjas back from being an automatic station wipe is the fact that some are either new enough or decent enough to lack the capacity to murder everyone. Just because its a semi-rare event doesn't redeem it from being a complete one-sided shit-show.

leibniz · Post by **leibniz** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:04 pm #12868

I dont think it should be in random events. Also the visor shouldnt have scouter (aghost should have it instead).

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:09 pm #12870

While I think Space Ninja is "unique", I do agree it should be removed from the random event rotation and made a admin spawned antag only.

The thing is with the visions, of the four available two of them are broken (Mesons never worked, and got nerfed with the meson nerf/Nightvision also does not work), one of them is situational (Scouter is only useful if you want to kill every single other antag in the round to make the round only about you) and only one is useful (Thermals that actually work). Since none of the Ninja's objectives require it to distinguish between a Traitor and non-Traitor crew member, it has little reason to have the scouter, give the scouter vision to admin ghosts or, hell, maybe ghosts in general.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:13 pm #12872

Ninja code hasn't been changed at all for as far as I remember, bar one change by Cheridan that removed a reference to them in the code for disposal outlets. (yeah seriously that is very bad) In any case, nobody has made any balance changes or anything of that sort in a very, very long time, possibly since the inception of ninjas. So don't say "suddenly coders have changed this for the worse" like that, since you have no idea what you're talking about.
Just about everyone and their dog is aware that ninja code is very, very bad and the only work anyone would ever put into it would be cleaning it up, which SirBayer attempted and went mad in the process, bless his soul.
Ninja probably should be removed from the rotation, and it should definitely be majorly fixed up, but to be honest a better option would just be to gut it all out and rewrite it from scratch.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:15 pm #12874

ninja is shit replace it with one man army, a single 30tc nuke op out to nuke the station.

If a round has gone on long enough to warrant a ninja, the event should be round-ending.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:22 pm #12880

Ninja has invisibility? Since when?

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:23 pm #12883

AseaHeru wrote:Ninja has invisibility? Since when?

I... Is.. Is this a invisibility joke?

Stickymayhem · Wed Oct 13, 2021 6:17 pm

Steelpoint wrote:
AseaHeru wrote:Ninja has invisibility? Since when?
I... Is.. Is this a invisibility joke?

I can't see how it would be.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:43 pm

miggles wrote:Ninja code hasn't been changed at all for as far as I remember, bar one change by Cheridan that removed a reference to them in the code for disposal outlets. (yeah seriously that is very bad) In any case, nobody has made any balance changes or anything of that sort in a very, very long time, possibly since the inception of ninjas. So don't say "suddenly coders have changed this for the worse" like that, since you have no idea what you're talking about.
Just about everyone and their dog is aware that ninja code is very, very bad and the only work anyone would ever put into it would be cleaning it up, which SirBayer attempted and went mad in the process, bless his soul.
Ninja probably should be removed from the rotation, and it should definitely be majorly fixed up, but to be honest a better option would just be to gut it all out and rewrite it from scratch.

I adjusted my post to not focus on coders. I still remember that invisibility used to function differently on ninjas and I'm 80% sure they used a smaller power cell over a year ago. I recall invisibility used to work similar to alien stalking... you'd be harder to see but still "visible" to a careful watcher in a well-lit area.

I suppose the history isn't very relevant here anyway, I fail to see what its current form adds beyond griff and mass murder from an opponent you cannot see, attack, or defend yourself again.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:51 pm #12892

They can upgrade their powercells with help of science.

That was probably the case. They start with 5000 IIRC.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 12:54 pm #12894

Ninja's start off with 100 units of power from a standard Power Cell, simply going to Tool/Tech/Secure/RnD Storage's and nabbing a High-Cap Power Cell will instantly net you a power supply of 150 units.

Plus carrying a backpack full of Power Cell's means you can go for a very, very long time without having to manually recharge and using the power cells to top yourself off whenever your low on power. In fact draining the power from a Power Cell takes seconds and its more viable to rip a Power Cell out of a APC and draining that then it is to drain the power from the APC directly.

Post by **MisterPerson** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:06 pm #12900

Could just straight up remove ninjas outright.

Actually, ninja invisibility WAS changed. They used to use the same code as the cloaker (almost transparent, you can barely see them) but then it was changed to literal "you can't see me" total invisibility.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:08 pm #12901

just remove it from rotation and shame admins who spawn them
or just remove them completely. they would not be missed.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:15 pm #12902

Removing them from the rotation would be best in my opinion, it means they can still be employed, but people will know to blame the admins for the Ninja and not RNG.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:36 pm #12909

danno wrote:just remove it from rotation and shame admins who spawn them
or just remove them completely. they would not be missed.

by you maybe.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 1:49 pm #12912

Oldman Robustin wrote:griff and mass murder from an opponent you cannot see, attack, or defend yourself again.

I don't know what to say, miggles. If you would miss this you are a real life retard.

AseaHeru · Post by **AseaHeru** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:28 pm #12915

I like ninjas.
The one time I was one it was fun.
And I dident even kill anyone.

Just make it an adminspawn thing.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 2:33 pm #12919

(Or for a highly shitty idea force Space Ninja's to follow their objectives to the letter, if your order is to not harm innocents, you don't harm innocents)

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 3:37 pm #12932

danno wrote:
Oldman Robustin wrote:griff and mass murder from an opponent you cannot see, attack, or defend yourself again.
I don't know what to say, miggles. If you would miss this you are a real life retard.

(or i have a different opinion than you, have you considered that)

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:15 pm #12943

I gotta say I whole heartedly agree with Robustin. Getting murder boned by an auto-win super antag is not fun. Then again I think wizard should be an admin only event; guess I just like balance, go figure.

danno · Post by **danno** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:18 pm #12946

AseaHeru wrote:I like ninjas.
The one time I was one it was fun.
And I dident even kill anyone.

Just make it an adminspawn thing.

But the thing is that I guarantee it was fun for you alone
murderboner ninja is anti-fun
but le silent/invisible/friendly ninja is not fun either

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:23 pm #12947

As far as I'm concerned your sentence is interchangeable with wizard Danno. I have no idea how people can tolerate an antag designed to obliterate the careful balance of the station with the click of a button. Back to ninjas: Getting auto-killed is not fun. Being a stealth ninja just means you're fucking with people without them seeing it. Ninja killing your cult sounds INFURIATING and that's never happened to me. I really thought TG was above allowing that bullshit to go down.

Stickymayhem · Post by **Stickymayhem** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:33 pm #12950

danno wrote:
AseaHeru wrote:I like ninjas.
The one time I was one it was fun.
And I dident even kill anyone.

Just make it an adminspawn thing.
But the thing is that I guarantee it was fun for you alone
murderboner ninja is anti-fun
but le silent/invisible/friendly ninja is not fun either

Actually you're right.

I genuinely can't think of a round that I enjoyed more thanks to a space ninja except when I rolled one.

I was side by side with Oldman when our cult got gunned down earlier today. We are walking with 5+ constructs to cargo when suddenly he dies next to me for no discernible reason, then literally before I can draw a weapon I'm critted in two hits.

It was an awful end to a cult round that had been fun up to that point.

I still think there must be some kind of use for Space Ninjas though or it's a waste of something that could surely be fun.

It's either bullshit murderboner, "There was a Ninja?" at round end or Friendly wizard but even worse.

miggles · Post by **miggles** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:39 pm #12952

Atticat wrote:I really thought TG was above allowing that bullshit to go down.

antags have free reign to do as they please

Atticat · Post by **Atticat** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:43 pm #12954

I wasn't referring to antag rights. I was referring to allowing a round type to exist and admins interferring with the round by ruining it via spawned OP antag.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 4:59 pm #12957

Honestly I used to be paranoid admins were the big bads spawning space ninjas but then I came to realize that

Spoiler:

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 6:45 pm #12977

Oldman Robustin wrote:At some point someone decided this random event wasn't completely ruining enough rounds yet and decided to make him even more unstoppable. Invisibility and energy consumption for the ninja have been changed since I started playing here and they went from "Wizard with an esword" to "Invisible unkillable gods" since I've been playing here. .

Ninja code has literally been touched by no one for over a year, aside from compatibility updates for new frame works

iamgoofball · Post by **iamgoofball** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:37 pm #12986

kill ninja

replace with a wizard traitor ling instead.

Munchlax · Post by **Munchlax** » Wed Jun 11, 2014 7:41 pm #12987

Which idiot even made ninja a random event in the first place, also, replace it, anyone who has played the game for more than a week can be super unkillable no fun allowed demigod as a ninja.

Oldman Robustin · Wed Jun 11, 2014 9:36 pm

At least Hornygranny is fixing wizard (to an extent) by finally nerfing magic missile stun times so that they are in-line with the other stun nerfs.

And at least I can see the wizard before he dunks me with some spell combo.

Many of my comments about ninja changes do stem from the fact I haven't played ninja in the last year, so my remarks on "old" ninjas may in fact be old. Maybe I'm just operating on a fuzzy memory here but I never remember ninjas having "perfect" invisibility.

ExplosiveCrate · Wed Jun 11, 2014 11:32 pm

You can see invisible ninjas with Sec/MedHUDS. There'll just be this HUD floating in the air.

But yeah, if nothing else ninjas should be disabled as random events until they can be looked at and improved.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 4:21 am #13041

ADMIN: Dannno/(Jane West) (JMP): gamemode idea: you are a sentient locker who has to capture as many people as possible
Saiga Pishuaipiao [Jani] [145.9] asks, "Huh?"
ADMIN LOG: TheGel/(Airica Zen) jumped to Dannno/(Jane West)
Corvin Atano [Atmos] [145.9] says, " The locker is living."
Corvin Atano says, " The locker is living."
Reese Marcotte [Sci] [145.9] says, "YES"
ADMIN: Dannno/(Jane West) (JMP): hell, replace ninja with that

Durkel · Post by **Durkel** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:00 am #13091

As a 17 time player of ninja, I can whole heartily vouch that ninja should be removed. There should never be so much bullshit shoved into one character. Telegibbing, invis, massive brute esword, auto aim stun darts, free stun removal. Like shieeeet. Most people don't even know about the AI subversion or the ninja pda in general.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 8:13 am #13096

Isn't the whole point of the Space Ninja is to create the most over powered antag possible that is more creative than giving them god mode and a meteor gun?

Maybe make it a rule that a Space Ninja is a unique antag that has to obey its objectives given, to balance out the massive amount of power they get. Also remove it from the random rotation since no one deserves to have their round ruined because the RNG decided to teleport a Space Ninja into your round.

ExplosiveCrate · Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:00 am

Steelpoint wrote:Isn't the whole point of the Space Ninja is to create the most over powered antag possible that is more creative than giving them god mode and a meteor gun?

It'd be fine if they weren't a fucking random event. As in something that can happen at any point in any round.

Yeah.

Kelenius · Post by **Kelenius** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:07 am #13110

Something that can happen at any point in any round that lasted for more than an hour.

Post by **lumipharon** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:16 am #13113

When ninja's actually focus on their objectives (including the RP objective, and in general rp a little (ie: playing a ninja, not a turbomurderboner) it can be pretty fun. Of course without admin enforcement, most people just use it to be turbomurderboning shits. Murderboning in general is shit for that matter, but when ninja's do it, it's just fucking pointless.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:27 am #13115

i think ninja objectives and capturing should be reworked so ninjas are way more focused on catching antags who try to 'peace antag' and don't get the shuttle called.

Rename them bounty hunters. Also make them lawless humanoid cyborgs with cowboy hats so we can be space cowboys and valid hunt.

Post by **oranges** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:45 am #13117

The general consensus in coderbus is the ninjacode is fucked and it needs a rewrite or removal. So it's unlikely anyone will be willing to tweak it heavily.

Just a word of warning.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 9:47 am #13118

Then remake it, write out all the stupid snowflake spider PDA shit, and simplify it a ton. Compress shit down to simple buttons. Write down a list of all the features ninja has, prune the ones that are unused or bloat, and rewrite the essentials.

If nobody's willing to do that, just nerf the effectiveness of the ninja stars because that's what people get salty about anyway.

Oldman Robustin · Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:01 am

Got ninja this morning and went to wipe out all the traitors, it was effortless. After playing, I have to say energy star is probably the second most broken aspect of ninja that even an invisibility nerf won't cure. Its literally a "press to stun everyone" spammable button that makes wiping out any opposition trivial. I recall fighting a ninja in space a few months ago and even "jetpack speed" at a full screen length juking as fast as I could was unable to completely dodge these projectiles. On foot, with the movement speed nerf, you literally cannot avoid energy star... a cheap, spammable ability that auto-targets anyone on your screen.

I would also advise getting rid of the "scouter" since it really feels like an admin power that lets you basically end any conflict on the station however you please. Judging by the endless flow of rage after my ninja round (and what I experienced after my cult round in the OP) I would say that the scouter is nothing but a big "fuck you" abillity that can fuck over an hour or more of careful effort because RNG decided it was ninja time.

After playing ninja again it only affirmed how you basically feel like Wizard+Ling, the only way youll ever die is if you let the crew kill you.

Steelpoint · Post by **Steelpoint** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 10:06 am #13122

A Ninja is as powerful as the player is, meaning a really good player will be simply unstoppable to practically anything. How do you bomb/syringe/shoot something you cannot see, and can kill you compleatly in stealth? Even the Ninja's energy sword is kept cloaked if your in stealth (I think), not to mention the Sword functions as a Emag.

Fixing and bringing Space Ninja up to standard will be a difficult task, but for now simply remove the Space Ninja from the random rotation. No more Space Ninja in Cult/Malf/Other rounds. Only as a admin spawn for when things are dull.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 2:53 pm #13154

Steelpoint wrote:A Ninja is as powerful as the player is

Not even true. I've watched bumbling morons play ninja and do absolutely fine, because it babies you. Sure, some of them will run out of battery and die. But what about before that happens?
And you really need only the most BASIC knowledge (i gotta remember to recharge - basically all you need) and then your abilities will carry you through it all (see: energy star).

Malkevin · Post by **Malkevin** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:32 pm #13162

Recharging not from a cell is really slow and noisy
even a 15kw cell runs out after a few minutes

Oldman Robustin · Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:45 pm

Its slow and noisy but youre in maint with an auto-target spammable stun that can be used even when you're stunned.

Nobody is going to be able to touch you as a ninja unless you simply got lazy about recharging before you're in the single-digits and can't use any powers.

danno · Post by **danno** » Thu Jun 12, 2014 3:56 pm #13169

and I mean
even then. Crowbar up some floor, boom wire, sit on that for a few seconds (chances are you have a few seconds)
and you can probably escape that way.

Miauw · Post by **Miauw** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:11 pm #13372

ninja code is a fucking tumor. a deeply fucking nested tumor that can't be excised without causing massive hemmoraging EVERYWHERE that has also spread to other places/
its just aaaauuugh it makes me cri at night.

i actually sort of like ninja when it's not played by murderboning assholes but sadly we cant trust people not to be murderboning assholes.

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 8:33 pm #13375

nerf ninja's murderbone ability and make his objectives less murderbone???????????????

how many times do i have to say it before i actually dew it myself

i hate this

Post by **Fatal** » Fri Jun 13, 2014 9:20 pm #13381

Well, removing it from rotation of RNG would be a good start, making it admin spawned only

That way they can be spawned with special objectives to be the heroes the station needs

paprika · Post by **paprika** » Sat Jun 14, 2014 12:43 am #13407

>admins in charge of spawning ninjas when they're needed
>players in charge of playing ninjas properly when admins rely on them

This is the same reason we removed death squad, player competency.