Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

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Eaglendia
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Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Eaglendia » Sun Jun 12, 2016 1:42 pm #186147

I'd really like someone to ration this out with me because I legitimately can't tell if they're good, trash, or just another thing.

Augmentation is foremost a relatively time and resource intensive process; a full body augmentation contains ~108 seconds of waits, which is a little faster than the fastest the process could possibly go assuming we're in Sybil 20XX - that is, assuming frame-perfect hand-switch-item-swap-interact inputs from a surgeon who has memorized the process without the need to access the surgery computer or wiki between steps, has already made all of the requisite cyborg limbs (which itself takes a significant amount of time assuming R&D is unupgraded) and placed them on an adjacent tile, the surgeon is non-interactive, verbally or otherwise, with the rest of the station during the process, and all players involved are playing on the same network that the server is hosted on.

More realistically it's going to be about a full stack of metal (not too bad a resource cost) and five minutes of busywork/sitting quietly for two people - which is a significant amount of time, given recent round length, for something that affects a single person and requires someone else's full attention. What I've found myself unable to figure out is whether or not it's worth it, whether being fully augmented is as fun as it sounds (I wasn't the only one thinking Adam Jensen/Robocop/Raiden until they actually tried it, was I?), and whether any of this is actionable at all. As of now, full augmentations:
+ Give you slightly increased durability.
+ Allow you to heal with wires and welding tools, which are relatively unbound by inventory constraints assuming you're carrying a toolbelt or box (This is pretty nifty.)
+ Make you spaceproof (I didn't know this until just now - this is actually pretty good and arguably the best thing, but seems neither obvious nor properly exciting; does this make the process worth it on its own?)

However:
- The durability increase is minor, applies to brute damage only (correct me if I'm wrong?), and is relatively irrelevant, before even considering an abundance of armor piercing weapons (energy swords, chaplain blades, cult blades, carp fists, and the armor increase doesn't affect stamina loss or change the hits-to-crit for most ballistics)
- Healing with tools, while useful, takes FOREVER; applying cables to a burnt limb takes several times as long as using a bruise pack or ointment (probably ten seconds or more by my guess, don't know where to look for this in the code) and infinity times as long as using a patch, and the amount of damage healed per application isn't even that high. It's to the degree that it's not even worth doing in most situations.
- You become ridiculously susceptible to EMP. An ion bolt, flashlight blink, disable tech talisman, or resonant shriek will reduce you to below half health, and render you functionally unconscious for an extended duration; during the resulting stun you are unable to act, see, talk, or hear. This is considered the main drawback of full augmentation and there isn't a real way to protect yourself against it; aside from this you're still equally susceptible to everything a normal human is.
- You're immune to the chaplain's healing (Another particular interaction that might actually be bugged right now, but this is one of those fun little NetHack corner cases that should probably stay the way it is).

Sadly, you have none of the benefits of being Jensen/Robocop/Raiden, but all of the downsides (susceptibility to electromagnetic interference, constantly forgetting that you aren't human anymore).

Humor aside, though, and as Robotics augmentation is currently the only intentional and reasonable way to regain lost limbs (unless something has changed since I last played), it's a little difficult to mess with the balance of these things in terms of things like changing the amount of time/research required. Paprika has suggested medical prosthetics, and I've talked about/heard ideas for biological prosthetics, a means of cloning new limbs or organs from an individual's DNA, which would replace the "secret genetics technique" that I believe is currently classified as an issue - these are notable ideas because they'd put Robotics augmentation in its own regime, making it more flexible in terms of what's required to get it and what benefits it would confer.

But this isn't an idea thread. Rather, I've heard "full augmentation" thrown around a lot as a theoretical benefit ("science should get a fully augmented officer"), a potential answer ("a fully augmented miner can beat the ash drake easily"), or have just seen people (very rarely and probably without knowing fully what it entails) do it for fun, and am curious as to what people really expect from augmentations and think about their balance state.
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InsaneHyena
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby InsaneHyena » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:11 pm #186152

I think that we need more fun augmentations. Toolset arm is certainly a good start. I would certainly prefer more augmentations and cyborg stuff to mechs.
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Steelpoint
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Steelpoint » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:13 pm #186154

Insane is on the right track.

Augmentations right now are a blank slate. Right now they're only really useful for the space immunity, augs would be far better if you could attach items to a augmented limb to gain a benefit and a minor drawback.

Maybe even consider offering Heads of Staff a neat Aug relevant to their role, but I digress.
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby InsaneHyena » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:22 pm #186158

I would start by removing all implants from RnD and moving them to robotics, tbh. They just seem much more appropriate there.
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Super Aggro Crag
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:32 pm #186160

rocket fist implant
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InsaneHyena
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby InsaneHyena » Sun Jun 12, 2016 2:34 pm #186162

Since we have dismemberment now, this is actually possible.
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confused rock
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby confused rock » Sun Jun 12, 2016 3:00 pm #186170

Eaglendia wrote:secret genetics technique

you mean the secret monkey technique
also the slow heal with welding/cables is left over from when goof nerfed the shit out of bruise packs and ointment
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Takeguru
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Takeguru » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:08 pm #186199

Yeah, how much brute does the welder heal per apply?

Something like 2? And it takes like 5 seconds to apply it EACH TIME
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Gun Hog
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Gun Hog » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:46 pm #186210

InsaneHyena wrote:I would start by removing all implants from RnD and moving them to robotics, tbh. They just seem much more appropriate there.


They can be found in the Misc entry of the fabricator. Roboticists can print them just as well as a Scientist can. Since you already have the tools and the table, most times Science will print them for you, and just bring them to you for implantation.

I love the implants myself, I would be up to adding a few new cool ones as well. Maybe a spray cleaner implant for the janitor?

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Super Aggro Crag
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sun Jun 12, 2016 5:50 pm #186211

chest augmentation for miners that lets them smelt ore by eating it and belching out refined materials.
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Gun Hog
 
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Gun Hog » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:23 pm #186222

Super Aggro Crag wrote:chest augmentation for miners that lets them smelt ore by eating it and belching out refined materials.

...I want to code this...

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Super Aggro Crag
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Super Aggro Crag » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:24 pm #186223

Gun Hog wrote:
Super Aggro Crag wrote:chest augmentation for miners that lets them smelt ore by eating it and belching out refined materials.

...I want to code this...

feel free to do so.
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Anonmare » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:37 pm #186226

I think I remember suggesting a bunch of augments a while back, in addition to an auto-doc
Maybe you could get prosthetic limbs which are cheaper, make you take extra damage (they're fragile) and can't support "upgrades" but are EMP-immune and much quicker to manufacture, in addition to being pressure (but not temperature) immunity? Cyborg augments would be the heavy duty version with added benefits.
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Thundercoot » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:46 pm #186230

Augmentations should make you safer against everything that isn't an EMP. They should also provide bonuses to most interactions that can improve jobs These bonuses should come with the cyborg parts, no extra implants or augs needed:
  • Improve surgery by allowing one with head or arm augmentations to complete surgical actions faster, with higher success rates when the success rate is below 100%.
  • Improve custodial and engineering work by augmenting somebody's arm(s), so that they aren't burned by removing light fixtures, have faster construction speeds and possess radiation resistance, with every cybernetic limb making you hardier against radiation. Electrical fuses would reduce electrocution (but not EMP) damage and localise damage to the parts that touch the electrocuting thing.
  • Embedded objects deal less damage, and cybernetic limbs cannot bleed, even if the limb is heavily bruised.
  • Augmented legs without shoes can safely walk on glass shards.
  • Fired syringes that hit a cybernetic limb do not transfer any chemicals to the person's bloodstream.

There should be another drawback to augmented limbs: Chemicals should not be able to heal cybernetic limbs, so that welding and cables - hopefully after somebody buffs them - are the main method of healing.

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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Anonmare » Sun Jun 12, 2016 6:58 pm #186233

Actually most electronics are no more resilient to radiation than the Human body is unless they have shielding or aren't sensitive enough to be damaged (like vacuum tube transistors). Maybe radiation can do burn damage to augmented limbs and make the augmentee less absorbent to radiation (fully body = 0 absorbance but it all gets translated to burn damage instead) .

I suppose you could offer shielded augments that half the damage of EMPs and protect against radiation for ridiculously high rare mat costs.

Genetic powers/disabilities and virology shouldn't work for augmentees, depending on what's been augmented, either. Head augmentations should cancel out TK/X-ray, arms should cancel out Hulk, body should cancel out Cold Resistance, legs cancel out dwarf/gigantism and so on.
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby InsaneHyena » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:13 pm #186237

Genetic powers/disabilities and virology shouldn't work for augmentees, depending on what's been augmented, either. Head augmentations should cancel out TK/X-ray, arms should cancel out Hulk, body should cancel out Cold Resistance, legs cancel out dwarf/gigantism and so on.

Augmentations should do something useful first
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Re: Augmentations seem mundane, awkwardly balanced

Postby Jazaen » Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:43 pm #186240

Out of current researchable genetic powers, in fluff:
Three affect entire body (Hulk, chameleon, dwarfism)
One affects the eyes (XRay)
One seems to affect the chest (Cold resist)
One affects the mind/head/brain (TK)

By the way, let's see which ones can be done using researchable augmentics:
Xray == Xray implant
Cold resist == Full body augmentation
Chameleon == Nothing researchable
Dwarfism == Nothing researchable, thank God.
Hulk == No stun resist, but you can get no-drop to prevent losing items to stuns
TK == Nothing researchable

I'm also against adding those to research, since both departments (fine, department and subdepartment) should have unique stuff. Toolset arm is, in my opinion, a step in the right direction, by adding something that improves life without being hilariously unbalanced.
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