About Lava Staff

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About Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:01 pm #208216

Seriously. It's terribly overpowered, instant kill on anyone without fire protection, creates lasting lava traps that are impossible to remove without an RCD.

Then I see non-antags use it, creating traps people die on. That, or miners die to antags and give them free murderbone loot. It's the kind of item that should never even be present on station. Restrict its use to Lavaland or make it go entirely, because there really should be a limit to bullshit like this.
Last edited by Slignerd on Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby lzimann » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:11 pm #208218

You need to kill a dragon to get it though, and even killing it's not a 100% drop.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:24 pm #208219

That doesn't make it balanced, or even sensible. Would you add pulse or instakill rifles to R&D on high levels, just on the basis that it takes a lot of research to get it, and that the items for these levels might not always be there? Maybe even researchable supermatter sword? It would be on par with the current lavastaff situation.

The issue is that experienced players can get those on a regular basis, and then fuck over anyone else with a one-hit-kill weapon.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Bombadil » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:28 pm #208220

It instakilled me and I was in fucking drake armor.

Id say remove the ability to place lava ontop of attacking someone. It does the same damage as esword
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby DrWoofington » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:31 pm #208222

I couldn't kill a roboticist with it with even two hits
What the fuck
Oh wait right i was on fucking harm intent

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:35 pm #208224

Sligneris wrote:Would you add pulse or instakill rifles to R&D on high levels, just on the basis that it takes a lot of research to get it, and that the items for these levels might not always be there? Maybe even researchable supermatter sword? It would be on par with the current lavastaff situation.

The real joke here is that supermatter swords, instakill rifles and pulse rifles actually leave less lasting damage behind despite being regarded as adminbus weapons.
Last edited by Slignerd on Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:39 pm #208225

Sligneris wrote:The real joke here is that supermatter swords, instakill rifles and pulse rifles actually leave less lasting damage despite behind being regarded as adminbus weapons.

relly makes u think
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:42 pm #208226

Maybe it needs a slight delay on the tile turning to lava.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Cobby » Fri Sep 02, 2016 2:40 pm #208232

Saegrimr wrote:
Sligneris wrote:The real joke here is that supermatter swords, instakill rifles and pulse rifles actually leave less lasting damage despite behind being regarded as adminbus weapons.

relly makes u think
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:44 pm #208248

High level RD can instantly create a singularity anywhere they want, and roundstart RD gets maxcaps. Of course you're going to find more "lasting damage" if you compare a gun like the instant kill rifle or radiation based sword which is meant to kill mobs directly to something meant to ruin the map.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby InsaneHyena » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:22 pm #208251

But only, like, five people know how to make maxcaps.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby onleavedontatme » Fri Sep 02, 2016 4:44 pm #208254

And a similarly low number of people can kill the megafauna on a regular basis.

Which is really the heart of the issue. How high do we let the skill ceiling be/how can you possibly balance a game where players with 10k connections are playing alongside people on their first day, and everywhere inbetween.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 5:15 pm #208261

Biggest difference is in the usage. You can't BoH bomb without sacrificing yourself and ending your own round. You can't use a maxcamp right away, either - you need to set it up, vacate the area, then hope that no one disarmed it before you got to detonate.

It doesn't compare to "one click with an item in your hand to send a person to crit, burn whatever remains on them and create a permanent lava trap". Even if it's an achievement item, it is not balanced - since again, it doesn't make much more sense than being awarded an instakill rifle or a supermatter sword on an away mission.

Even if you need to slay a beast to get it, it doesn't change much, since it's not all that difficult to kill a dragon on Lavaland with full mining equipment - and the reality of the situation is that just today, we had three rounds in a row with lavastaff being brought to the station and used to murder people and create tons of lava pools.

It just needs to go, or stay at Lavaland. Honestly.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby D&B » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:17 pm #208272

If killing a drake is so easy, then why not go hunt them all and burn the staff in lava?

There's far worse things on station, honestly. This is just another "I got dunked by x lavaland item remove he" episode
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:28 pm #208277

D&B wrote:There's far worse things on station, honestly.

Like? Name one other thing that allows for such an inconsequential murder rampage, killing most people in a single click and leaving a barely passable permanent deathtrap behind?
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Ergovisavi » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:32 pm #208279

Things about the lava staff that are good

    * It's novel
    * It's powerful
    * The cooldown is fucking gigantic
    * It's obvious who has it and that they should be dunked

Things about the lava staff that aren't great

    *Lava is permanent
    *People are too stupid to use extinguishers to save themselves
    *It ignores things like windows
    *You can put it directly under people

That said there's a hundred more things on station that are just as retarded, like bombs, combat mechs, the fucking singularity, the tesla, unlimited hostile mob generation with botany/xeno, kudzu, etc.

Yeah this isn't super great but other things are just as dumb (I'd like to see them all get fixed though)

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Saegrimr » Fri Sep 02, 2016 6:44 pm #208280

By the time you get to an extinguisher you're probably dead. If the initial ball didn't kill you, you take like 40 burn damage instantly the moment you step on the lava.
Dropping and rolling doesn't work due to lmaofirestacks, i'm still not sure why we still have that mechanic.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Ergovisavi » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:07 pm #208289

Saegrimr wrote:By the time you get to an extinguisher you're probably dead. If the initial ball didn't kill you, you take like 40 burn damage instantly the moment you step on the lava.
Dropping and rolling doesn't work due to lmaofirestacks, i'm still not sure why we still have that mechanic.


You take 20 burn damage. There is no "initial ball", because it doesn't launch projectiles. And firestacks exist so that stop drop & roll isn't the solution to every source of fire in the game, so extinguishers have merit.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby D&B » Fri Sep 02, 2016 7:27 pm #208295

Sligneris wrote:
D&B wrote:There's far worse things on station, honestly.

Like? Name one other thing that allows for such an inconsequential murder rampage, killing most people in a single click and leaving a barely passable permanent deathtrap behind?


Freon
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[20:26:02]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Welp. It was just a prank bro isn't a very good excuse when it comes to unprovoked nonantag murder, but since this is your first time doing it and you seem to understand the problem instead of a bannu I'm just going to leave you with a warning. Please PLEASE don't do this again in the future, as funny as crackhead broken bottle memes can be. Alrighty? Do you have any input on this?
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[20:27:06]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Okay then. Have fun.
[20:31:29]ADMIN: PM: [censored admin]->[censored]: Excuse me?

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby BeeSting12 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 9:21 pm #208327

D&B wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
D&B wrote:There's far worse things on station, honestly.

Like? Name one other thing that allows for such an inconsequential murder rampage, killing most people in a single click and leaving a barely passable permanent deathtrap behind?


Freon

And freon is harder to remove too. Lava is just use a RCD, freon takes forever.
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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Archie700 » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:28 pm #208348

It would be better to have it be a drop from the boss legion when you kill it completely. Maybe a 50%/50% chance with the staff of storms.

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Re: Remove Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:45 pm #208352

That would work when it comes to making it harded to get, but it does not fix the item itself. My issue is with how it works, not with how obtainable it is.

Personally, another idea I had for nerfing it aside from limiting its use to Lavaland is to force the staff's user to stand still for a short while in order to successfully summon a lava pool - making it a remote, lava-spawning RCD. Obviously, there would bave to be a clear indication that a lava pool is being created.

Giving people the opportunity to avoid it or interrupt it would balance it well, in my opinion. Instead of, you know. Keeping it as an instant death button it is now. You'd still be able to use it on your victims, but you need to stun them somehow first. It would also be more suitable for creating traps and obstructing passage instead of using it as simply a ranged weapon.

Since it'd be a hard nerf, it would be fine to reduce its cooldown in return, allowing the user to create larger lava pools when given time. But the staff definitely can't stay like it is now.
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Saegrimr » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:26 am #208357

Good thing freon is getting removed ayyyyyy.
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Cik » Sat Sep 03, 2016 12:38 am #208359

lava staff was a mistake

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:23 am #208403

1. don't go near the guy with the lava staff if you don't wanna risk dying in lava
2. don't step in lava you fucking retard

There now it's balanced
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby TechnoAlchemist » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:51 am #208413

PKPenguin321 wrote:1. don't go near the guy with the lava staff if you don't wanna risk dying in lava
2. don't step in lava you fucking retard

There now it's balanced


I don't mind lava staffs but this line of reasoning is pretty fucjing dumb mate

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 7:57 am #208415

TechnoAlchemist wrote:
PKPenguin321 wrote:1. don't go near the guy with the lava staff if you don't wanna risk dying in lava
2. don't step in lava you fucking retard

There now it's balanced


I don't mind lava staffs but this line of reasoning is pretty fucjing dumb mate

Idk man using these two simple steps I've managed to not die to the lava staff even a single time so I'd say it's pretty solid
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Incomptinence » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:45 am #208420

Bolting someone into a room? Absolutely reprehensible! NO FUN!

Barring someone behind lava death moats? Git gut!

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby onleavedontatme » Sat Sep 03, 2016 3:17 pm #208446

Incomptinence wrote:Bolting someone into a room? Absolutely reprehensible! NO FUN!

Barring someone behind lava death moats? Git gut!

The penguin perspective.


I know I shouldn't even be taking this bait, but there is a vast difference between a player being able to remotely and instantly seal off entire departments without warning, and another player running around with an obvious and unwieldy item making a single tile impassable every 30 seconds.

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby ChangelingRain » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:26 pm #208466

Every 20 seconds.
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby lzimann » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:41 pm #208469

One day I spent 10 minutes in escape lavaing it all, no one bothered to stop(even with me screaming stupid things about it), then they complained about it being op after I managed to escape alone using just the lavastaff.

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby firecage » Sat Sep 03, 2016 4:57 pm #208474

You know. I personally don't find the Lavastaff so bad, atleast compared to the Singularity. A round-ending thing which either through sabotage, or incompetance, can be releasedf a few minutes within round start, and one it heads to the station, its game over. Lavastaff has nothing on it.

And considering we have a handy beacon to make sure the singularity heads to the station and ends the round...yah...
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Slignerd » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:31 pm #208486

lzimann wrote:One day I spent 10 minutes in escape lavaing it all, no one bothered to stop(even with me screaming stupid things about it), then they complained about it being op after I managed to escape alone using just the lavastaff.

Because you still had one click kill weapon during all that time, and could barely be stopped? It feels like people who defend it never really died to it to see how bullshit it is to instantly create lasting pools of lava in one click.

And no, it's not comparable to singularity at all. You can't control singularity - it might just as easily simply move away from the station. The one item that enables you to control its general direction costs you most of your points and much like bombs, can be easily sabotaged by any crew that find it.

The issue is having any way to defend from it. And as it stands, you have no way to defend from a lava staff - you can't attempt to dodge it, since it's instant. Once it does hit you, there's no way you'll have a chance to escape, since it puts most crew into instant crit. Nerf it or remove it. Seriously. You should at least be forced to stun people before creating a lava death trap beneath their feet.
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby cocothegogo » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:47 pm #208497

PKPenguin321 wrote:1. don't go near the guy with the lava staff if you don't wanna risk dying in lava
2. don't step in lava you fucking retard

There now it's balanced


that's retard logic and you know it
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:28 pm #208520

Kor wrote:
Incomptinence wrote:Bolting someone into a room? Absolutely reprehensible! NO FUN!

Barring someone behind lava death moats? Git gut!

The penguin perspective.


I know I shouldn't even be taking this bait, but there is a vast difference between a player being able to remotely and instantly seal off entire departments without warning, and another player running around with an obvious and unwieldy item making a single tile impassable every 30 seconds.

thank u for taking the bait for me
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Cheridan » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:22 am #208558

Sligneris wrote:
lzimann wrote:One day I spent 10 minutes in escape lavaing it all, no one bothered to stop(even with me screaming stupid things about it), then they complained about it being op after I managed to escape alone using just the lavastaff.

Because you still had one click kill weapon during all that time, and could barely be stopped?


I was going to say this. I know I sure wouldn't bother trying to attack someone with a lava staff. I assume he had ash drake armor too, so good luck even hitting him with lasers.
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby oranges » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:28 am #208593

>Kor still defending the lava staff

SHIP THE WAVES

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby onleavedontatme » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:29 am #208594

oranges wrote:>Kor still defending the lava staff

SHIP THE WAVES


Kor wrote:Maybe it needs a slight delay on the tile turning to lava.


?

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby oranges » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:20 am #208599

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Incomptinence » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:36 am #208604

Oh sure it's just a ranged near guaranteed kill item that makes more PERMANENT death traps any fucking where. Oh boohoo it has a cool down, not like the placement of doors have greater constrictions even with RCDs.

Dohoho but as long as it's not remote it's fiiiiine! Don't think about how many lava tiles can entomb a low tools job that can't break out! Then go to the disposals bins as an excuse and forget virology or some xenobiology rooms! Don't envision the next logical step of putting a catch all lava tile in the mail room to make any workplace where people don't tote toolboxes a tomb!

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Screemonster » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:15 am #208608

Incomptinence wrote:Dohoho but as long as it's not remote it's fiiiiine! Don't think about how many lava tiles can entomb a low tools job that can't break out! Then go to the disposals bins as an excuse and forget virology or some xenobiology rooms! Don't envision the next logical step of putting a catch all lava tile in the mail room to make any workplace where people don't tote toolboxes a tomb!

implying you can't just reroute disposals into the crusher, space or the singulo and be a million percent less conspicuous that it's a deathtrap

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby PKPenguin321 » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:28 am #208612

One time I routed disposals into an emagged crusher, placed a chute in a hallway, then got a spray bottle of water and noslips and an ebow. I set up water near the chute and dragged people into it when they slipped. I killed basically all but like 5 people on the station doing this
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Incomptinence » Thu Sep 08, 2016 12:52 pm #209675

Screemonster wrote:implying you can't just reroute disposals into the crusher, space or the singulo and be a million percent less conspicuous that it's a deathtrap

Rerouting disposals into the crusher takes more time and unlike ranged death trap stick doesn't give you a means to basically FORCE goombas to use it.

Imagine penguin's epic story but entire jobs basically end up putting THEMSELVES into the disposals.

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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Bombadil » Fri Sep 09, 2016 2:42 am #209904

Cheridan wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
lzimann wrote:One day I spent 10 minutes in escape lavaing it all, no one bothered to stop(even with me screaming stupid things about it), then they complained about it being op after I managed to escape alone using just the lavastaff.

Because you still had one click kill weapon during all that time, and could barely be stopped?


I was going to say this. I know I sure wouldn't bother trying to attack someone with a lava staff. I assume he had ash drake armor too, so good luck even hitting him with lasers.



Ash drake armor doesnt make lasers or tasers less effective the fuck are you talking about?
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Cobby
 
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Re: About Lava Staff

Postby Cobby » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:48 pm #210845

Bombadil wrote:
Cheridan wrote:
Sligneris wrote:
lzimann wrote:One day I spent 10 minutes in escape lavaing it all, no one bothered to stop(even with me screaming stupid things about it), then they complained about it being op after I managed to escape alone using just the lavastaff.

Because you still had one click kill weapon during all that time, and could barely be stopped?


I was going to say this. I know I sure wouldn't bother trying to attack someone with a lava staff. I assume he had ash drake armor too, so good luck even hitting him with lasers.



Ash drake armor doesnt make lasers or tasers less effective the fuck are you talking about?


Mining also has cheap adrenals if you care to buy them.
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