Double Energy Swords

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:27 pm #208484

So its been brought to light by one person in particular abusing these things just how unbelievably OP they are nowadays.

Effectively, a double energy sword can:
Reflect tasers and lasers and disablers 100% of the time, totally immune.
Deal 35 brute per hit, 3 hit kill.
Guaranteed to lop off limbs you target. If aimed at the legs, this is a guaranteed knock down, which is basically a guaranteed kill from there on before you can respond.
Can only be fought with stun batons or banking on disarm working out.

You can literally run around and mindlessly kill anyone and everyone in your way after you've murdered security in a few seconds. I'm not sure how armor plays into protecting your limbs, but 90% of the crew will be one-hit-kill fodder. And multiple traitors have access to this.

Yeah yeah call it "i ded" material but it really is unfairly powerful compared to all other equipment. Revolvers at least aren't an instakill because you can wear protective armor against it, survive more than one hit, use tasers against it, and their ammo is limited unless they make frequent runs to the autolathe.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:30 pm #208485

> Soap
> Flash
> Pepper spray
> Detective revolver or any bullet weapon, for that matter
> Hulk or TK work too
> Floor tiles
> Spears
> You don't have to fight him, you know, you can easily run away

I ded pls nerf. You are not supposed to walk over traitors.

Ricotez · Post by **Ricotez** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:37 pm #208487

Double energy sword sacrifices a lot for that power. You're a bright neon sign that announces "I'M VALID", and you have to get up to melee range on your target to harm them with it. Anything less than ranged stun protection just wouldn't be worth it.

onleavedontatme · Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:39 pm

>run up to guy with double esword
>detonate welding fuel tank
>get helped up/cloned/healed, he doesn't

easy

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:39 pm #208490

Soap can be super easily avoided. Flash can be super easily protected against as traitor (you're GONNA get your hands on sunglasses). Pepper spray can also be super easily protected against AND nobody uses it. There is literally only one detective and if he's the first guy you kill no one can stop you. Hulk and TK don't happen for a good 20 minutes. You can easily kill medbay before that. Floor tiles are a joke are you insane? Spears have like one or two shots around if you're lucky, and if the traitor isn't totally braindead and pulls the esword out next to you instead, you won't respond in time.

You CAN run away, I guess. What is that going to accomplish, though? Not die for a little while longer? You still can't hope to kill him.

Saegrimr · Post by **Saegrimr** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:41 pm #208491

It's like Carp Scroll, except your hands have to be in use. And it's really obvious. And bullets still work sometimes.

Super Aggro Crag · Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:43 pm

Pneumatic cannon level 3 filled with glass shards/hatchets.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:44 pm #208495

Ricotez wrote:Double energy sword sacrifices a lot for that power. You're a bright neon sign that announces "I'M VALID", and you have to get up to melee range on your target to harm them with it. Anything less than ranged stun protection just wouldn't be worth it.

Also, this. There is no greater weakness in entire ss13 than simply being valid. It doesn't matter how godly and overpowered you are, you are likely not winning against an entire station of bored greyshirts, who want to click on your sprite until it stops being vertical. The entire wizard gamemode is the proof of it.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:37 am #208544

Soap is amazing as a surprise attack, especially against someone who is riding a murderboner high and thinks you are at his mercy. Run away in a straight line and drop it when they are following. Gg

Digdugxx · Post by **Digdugxx** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:53 am #208547

Tbh you're dead meat if one person bola's you cuz then you get swarmed and you cant run, also being hit by a pie totally wrecks you :Z

ShadowDimentio · Sun Sep 04, 2016 12:53 am

>Comparing the esword to the revolver

I dunno if you're aware but the revolver is a gun and the esword is a sword. They aren't really comparable.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:03 am #208551

what happened to riot shotguns?

used to be the thing was damn useless because the first time you met the detective or a slightly above average armed sec officer you were going to get tagged by a shotgun and die

has this changed if not there's no issue tbh except in lowpop where murderboning always was a problem anyway

J_Madison · Post by **J_Madison** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:15 am #208552

Cik wrote:what happened to riot shotguns?

used to be the thing was damn useless because the first time you met the detective or a slightly above average armed sec officer you were going to get tagged by a shotgun and die

has this changed if not there's no issue tbh except in lowpop where murderboning always was a problem anyway

people are awful at understanding the concept of a PUMP action riot shotgun.

too many sec officers run in rambo and hit only 80% of the pellets, which isn't enough to knock down. then die since they have to pump to shoot another shot.

The optimal strategy is to shoot, pump, shoot, at a moderate distance.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:17 am

Wardens usually don't pass out candy unless they're shit or there's a reason to. "Someone might have a dualesword" is not a reason. "Someone has a dual esword" is a better reason. "Someone with a dual esword is killing people like crazy is a good reason.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:18 am #208555

riot shotgun negates the only advantage the esword has (the reflect) and takes advantage of all of it's disadvantages

-they have to come at you to kill you
-they can't just run around at medium range and expect to achieve anything except die
-they require maximum runspeed to effectively kill anything

when i play HOS i never leave roundstart without one on my armor tbh, they are just too useful. even for general self-defense they are excellent as the ammo count is high, ROF is moderate and they can hit multiple targets.

the knockdown is just gravy, the real appeal is how it can slow down an entire hallway of revs chasing you or whatever.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 1:35 am #208561

Is this whole '"hey guys this thing is OP" "NUH UH LOOK AT THIS LIST OF 5 THINGS YOU MIGHT DIE TO IF YOU'RE STUPID"' game you guys play fun? I know that it's an old favorite, but people usually reserve it for conversations regarding cyborgs.

The only situation in SS13 where hard counters work is in the case of slimes being harmed by fire extinguishers, because extinguishers are ubiquitous enough that you can reasonably find one if you encounter them.

As the guy who added them as a goddamn joke I'm disgusted every time I see someone rampaging through the crew with them like this is some kind of GTA clone.

Digdugxx wrote:Tbh you're dead meat if one person bola's you cuz then you get swarmed and you cant run, also being hit by a pie totally wrecks you :Z

Shields not blocking thrown items when they block goddamn bullets is a bug/oversight. The fact that people are resorting to pies to counter traitors because they have a murdersword that blocks everything else is ridiculous.

TechnoAlchemist · Sun Sep 04, 2016 2:15 am

Doesn't any melee stun beat this though like I'm pretty sure in terms of hits per kill the stun prod wins

ShadowDimentio · Sun Sep 04, 2016 3:07 am

>Post thing that doesn't have easy counters and demand to know why it still exists and has no counters
>People list multiple
>Insist the counters listed aren't good enough
>Go back to 1

Repeat until thread closed

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:07 am #208582

Cheridan wrote:Is this whole '"hey guys this thing is OP" "NUH UH LOOK AT THIS LIST OF 5 THINGS YOU MIGHT DIE TO IF YOU'RE STUPID"' game you guys play fun? I know that it's an old favorite, but people usually reserve it for conversations regarding cyborgs.

The only situation in SS13 where hard counters work is in the case of slimes being harmed by fire extinguishers, because extinguishers are ubiquitous enough that you can reasonably find one if you encounter them.

As the guy who added them as a goddamn joke I'm disgusted every time I see someone rampaging through the crew with them like this is some kind of GTA clone.

Digdugxx wrote:Tbh you're dead meat if one person bola's you cuz then you get swarmed and you cant run, also being hit by a pie totally wrecks you :Z
Shields not blocking thrown items when they block goddamn bullets is a bug/oversight. The fact that people are resorting to pies to counter traitors because they have a murdersword that blocks everything else is ridiculous.

it doesn't block bullets

why is this even a problem does everything have to be countered by something "readily available"?

if that's the case then literally everything in the uplink is super broken. emag uncounterable revolver uncounterable stech uncounterable

there's literally nothing in the station that counters 99% of antag weapon except "shoot back" which counters eswords too so who cares

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:34 pm #208668

Cik wrote:
it doesn't block bullets

why is this even a problem does everything have to be countered by something "readily available"?

if that's the case then literally everything in the uplink is super broken. emag uncounterable revolver uncounterable stech uncounterable

there's literally nothing in the station that counters 99% of antag weapon except "shoot back" which counters eswords too so who cares

I was referring to lasers (which would be even harder to deflect realistically but whatever)

To answer your question, yes. Hard counters that are not readily available leads to cancer.
"Le just baton/bola/soap him!" -- Ok, so I can use those to counter a dualsworder. Assuming that I have those items, which require advance preparation. So then at roundstart, I go ahead and make my stunprod/bola/cablecuffs so I don't later get killed in 1 click.
Oh wait, except that's what people call powergaming.
The only decent suggestion provided is Kor's solution, which uses two reasonably-available items with no prep time. Everything else just feeds into this JUST IN CASE powergame mentality that everyone claims to hate yet does nothing against.

The examples you've provided are all much more balanced than dualsabers. Emags -- well first of all you're pulling things out of your ass because emags don't effectively kill people in 1 hit so they're not relevant to what we're talking about. But most items affected by an emag can be repaired later. So in this case a toolbox is the counter. As for the guns, they're intrinsically limited by ammo. Even if you have access to a lathe to make more ammo, you're still limited by inventory space and there's an additional risk of people seeing you print it.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:39 pm

I don't claim to hate it. Powergaming, for better or worse, is an inseparable part of SS13, and removing it turns you into Bay where you have to pretend to not know shit and get killed by antags. In small doses, IE taking the soap as a weapon, is healthy to the round when someone tries to murderbone.

onleavedontatme · Sun Sep 04, 2016 4:47 pm

Any vaguely experienced double esword spree guy gets no slips anyway.

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:01 pm

Why the titfuck should a 16TC investment (+2tc for noslips so the clown isn't a hard counter against you) be something that people should be able to instantly counter with no preparation?

If someone's running around with a dual esword murderbonering, there are two cases to deal with him

1) "I am sec": Get the detective's revolver / a buckshot shotgun and GG NO RE them.

2) "I am not sec" or "I am sec and the armory was memed": Make a stunprod or two, preferably get a second person with you in case of KO memes, and GG NO RE him

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:29 pm #208676

i still don't get it cheri, what's the alternative go back to the old esword with <100% block chance where 20% of the time the first taser just ggnores you with no defense?

i still don't think a melee only weapon that requires the extremely asinine yackety sax clickspam SS13 melee application, allows you to hold nothing else and takes up literally all your TC is a problem. maybe if there really were no counters but there are plenty, the station starts with them and they are readily available. sure, you may be the first to die to a surprise desword but at the same time that happens all the time with every other syndie weapon; there is no real defense vs. a quickdrawed surprise stechkin or revolver either, at least the desword takes a moment to flip on and you have time to clear melee. revolver is just "ur ded" in two hits and running doesn't really help.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:34 pm #208677

Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Why the titfuck should a 16TC investment (+2tc for noslips so the clown isn't a hard counter against you) be something that people should be able to instantly counter with no preparation?

I ROLLED TRAITOR AND PAID 18 TC SO I GET TO MURDERBONE A TON OF PEOPLE BEFORE THEY FINALLY HARDCOUNTER ME AND I DIE is the pinnacle of the grief-lottery and I'm disappointed that a maintainer is defending it.

It doesn't matter what the hard counters are, the fact that it's an item that requires a hard counter means it has no place in SS13.

For the record, batons are not a counter. They simply put you on equal footing where the person who gets the first click wins.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:42 pm #208679

Well, boo fucking hoo, that's the culture our rules and code created, and our admins are generally for status quo.

Cik · Post by **Cik** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:47 pm #208681

that's basically a counter considering the guys with batons outnumber you (conservatively) 3 to one

besides, there's tons of things that counter the desword without being a hardcounter

AOE flash spam
flashbang
shotgun
disarm spam
weaken
throwing things at him
anything that embeds incl spears
syringe gun
diseases
siphoning the room he's in
door bolts(?)

i've never really understood your hatred for hard counters anyway, they're an inevitability when talking about high-tier gear, if the gear can be countered constantly by extremely common equipment it's probably fated to be terrible. keep in mind that in most cases the desword is going to be alone and outnumbered 30~ to 1, at least.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:41 pm #208688

> Make a PR removing popular traitor item
> Get negative reaction
> Claim that it's because people don't understand paranoia and want deathmatch
> Get pointed out what changes be necessary to bring paranoia back (hint, it's not removing eswords)
> Get triggered, delete criticism

Wew.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:45 pm #208689

literally "i ded pls restart"

what kind of fucking retarded ass autistic excuse of a human being do you have to be to say "ree remove dual eswords"

THEY COST FUCKING 16 TC

PAYING BASICALLY ALL OF YOUR CREDITS FOR A VERY POWERFUL WEAPON IS BALENCED, THERE ARE PLENTY OF HARD COUNTERS, YOU ARE JUST FUCKING MAD YOU GOT MURDERBONED BY SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO (RIGHTFULLY, YOU DESERVE NOTHING MORE) REMOVE YOU FROM THE ROUND

The game isn't "lets regulate everything a crew aboard a space station does by the power of a omniscent rule book enforced by someone with infinite power" its "lets give the station tools to defeat said problem"

you have to be a special kind of autist to even consider this as anything but shit posting.

ShadowDimentio · Sun Sep 04, 2016 6:58 pm

Proposal: Replace dualeswords with the hugbox. Hitting someone with it heal them to full and gives them encouraging messages, and a little heart will float up.

Hell have everyone start with them both permanently attached to their hands, that way everyone can have fun playing the game together and never risks someone getting dunked and subsequently upset. Because heavens knows we don't want people dying in our game, no sir.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:00 pm #208693

I kind of want to see what would happen if we removed all the traitor weapons for a day. Like see if the focus goes from "WHOOO BUY DUAL ESWORD AND KILL EVERYONE" to using trickery, stealth, and the station resources to complete their objectives and sabotage the station or if they just sort of immediately break into the armory every round and grab as many guns as they can and just use those to kill everyone instead.

BeeSting12 · Post by **BeeSting12** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:01 pm #208694

git gud

WJohnston · Post by **WJohnston** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:06 pm #208696

Maybe just remove the guaranteed limb removal? Like make it so limbs cannot be removed while you're standing? Because that's where the bullshit one-hit-kill nature of it comes from.

Lumbermancer · Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:14 pm

Imagine if double esword was also a stun prod all in one? You would cry op, right? But that's what it is because of dismemberment. You get tapped once and you're without hands and feet.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:22 pm #208701

The double e-sword is when you want to end your round but go out killing people doing it.
It's /utterly/ terrible for extended fights, a CMO can get a lucky telebaton off on you and BAM ROUND OVER CYA TRAITOR.

You guys are also forgetting the juggling body part targetting you have to do to kill someone after chopping off their leg.

Eaglendia · Post by **Eaglendia** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:37 pm #208704

TechnoAlchemist wrote:Doesn't any melee stun beat this though like I'm pretty sure in terms of hits per kill the stun prod wins

double-bladed energy swords actually have 75% melee block, which means that against most armor, a double-esword aimed at a head or chest will stun more often than a stunprod or baton aimed at a double esword user.

also you can chop people's legs off with it and they'll fall over and drop whatever they're holding. (as bluespace mentioned though this is pretty unreliable as there's no good way to switch hit locations when potentially fighting multiple people)

i don't have a problem with the weapon myself though i think the buff to melee block was pretty dumb, it's kind of a braindead murderbone tool, especially so when paired with noslips. dismemberment was also kind of a stealth buff to it as well. i don't necessarily think it needs to be removed, but some of the numbers should probably be tweaked.

Bluespace · Post by **Bluespace** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 7:46 pm #208705

Also flashbangs are a hard counter.

They can get glasses but ear protection is harder.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:12 pm #208708

"i ded pls nerf"

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:23 pm #208711

>it's a "cheridan doesn't understand the game" episode

Xerux · Post by **Xerux** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 10:59 pm #208738

Do bullets actually get through?

I unloaded all of my shells into a dual-sworder as the detective and got "nothin personnel kid"ed before I could pull my baton out when in the past it worked even if a taser didn't.

Reece · Post by **Reece** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:05 pm #208739

Oh hey, people who were screeching about a lack of counters are now doing a 360? Wew, when are secborgs getting re-added! Or does it only count if you use it?

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:09 pm #208740

InsaneHyena wrote:> Make a PR removing popular traitor item
> Get negative reaction
> Claim that it's because people don't understand paranoia and want deathmatch
> Get pointed out what changes be necessary to bring paranoia back (hint, it's not removing eswords)
> Get triggered, delete criticism

Wew.

more like
>shitpost in headcoder pr
>get shitpost deleted

keep yelling "u ded" though, i'm sure that it will eventually convince me

btw his idea to "bring back paranoia" was to remove gang mode and clockcult mode. super insightful.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Sep 04, 2016 11:45 pm #208750

People explained their arguments as to why it isn't OP in great detail, you're just either too dense to listen or you have an agenda.

Slignerd · Post by **Slignerd** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:09 am #208753

I say keep them, it allows the captain to get a pretty cool weapon once the esworded gets inevitably dunked.

Post by **oranges** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 12:36 am #208760

I deleted the shitposts not Cheridan, if you have an issue with that, bring it up with me.

John_Oxford · Post by **John_Oxford** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:09 am #208767

also, on a side note.

if you give everyone dual energy swords, maybe it wont be a problem.

Cheridan · Post by **Cheridan** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 1:21 am #208771

John_Oxford wrote:also, on a side note.

if you give everyone dual energy swords, maybe it wont be a problem.

We already have that though, it's called Highlander!

Sidon · Post by **Sidon** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 3:29 am #208801

Cheridan wrote:
InsaneHyena wrote:> Make a PR removing popular traitor item
> Get negative reaction
> Claim that it's because people don't understand paranoia and want deathmatch
> Get pointed out what changes be necessary to bring paranoia back (hint, it's not removing eswords)
> Get triggered, delete criticism

Wew.
more like
>shitpost in headcoder pr
>get shitpost deleted

keep yelling "u ded" though, i'm sure that it will eventually convince me

btw his idea to "bring back paranoia" was to remove gang mode and clockcult mode. super insightful.

Paranoia will never be back, it's not what the game as a whole is about, and both of you fucks can't handle game discussion at all. Stop making excuses and stop playing if you don't like it.

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Mon Sep 05, 2016 4:29 am #208809

Sligneris wrote:I say keep them, it allows the captain to get a pretty cool weapon once the esworded gets inevitably dunked.

Make it so the captain's rapier and the dual esword have a chance of parrying eachother so they can have climatic sword fights

Not-Dorsidarf · Sun Jul 30, 2023 1:33 am

Cheridan wrote:
Not-Dorsidarf wrote:Why the titfuck should a 16TC investment (+2tc for noslips so the clown isn't a hard counter against you) be something that people should be able to instantly counter with no preparation?
It doesn't matter what the hard counters are, the fact that it's an item that requires a hard counter means it has no place in SS13.

For the record, batons are not a counter. They simply put you on equal footing where the person who gets the first click wins.

I mean you can totally run at a dual esworder with disarm intent and try to disarm him, you'll just probbably get your legs cut off.
And saying "This item requires a hard counter" when the hard counter is "Any melee stun, slip (if no noslips), lube spray, or projectile weapon" is kinda disingenuous. "X class of weapons does not work against someone carrying this weapon" is hardly the same as "You must be wearing a hardsuit to not be instakilled by the tesla"[1] or "Breaking electric grilles without gloves results in instant death".

In fact, you might even be able to just throw another assistant at the dual esworder to instantly knock them down, although I've not tried that because I've not seen a dual esworder who wasn't doing a jedu gimmick in about six months.

[1] Never fear, PKP and the Bullshit Wand have made it fair and balanced! Now you get instakilled by the explodsla anyway