/tg/Station 13

I believe it would be less awful to play as cyborg if conventional current-based stuns (stun batons, stun prods, tele prods) worked on cyborgs, while simple flashes shouldn't stun them, but blind and disorient them like they do to regular humans. Experiencing the one-click stun+blind+mute is an awful experience, and the crew being able to stun-lock silicons in a state like this is awful.

Having such a common item as a hard counter is bullshit, honestly. All it takes is to flash a syndicate cyborg once, and you can just repeatedly smash it with a fire extinguisher while keeping it in a stun-lock forever until it dies. There's sensible counters, such as EMPs, ion rifles and carbine, even laser pointers, then there's this bullshit.

It's instant stun, with no means to protect yourself from (as far as I know borg's equivalent of sunglasses or adrenals aren't a thing) and honestly, it's a terrible experience for something like this to result in a 'gg no re'. So, yeah. Can you give up on your extremely cheap counter once you lose your "no other stuns work on them" excuse and have actual stun weapons stun borgs instead?

Good, cyborg players should suffer.

Plasma Core Energy Banks and Adaptive Lenses/Advanced Adaptive Lenses as attachments for cyborgs when?

*PCEB dump's 3000 energy into the cell, removes all stuns, increases movement speed, and turns on all equipment (light on max, energy sword activated, stun baton turned on, harm alarm activated, flash activated)
Three uses.

Adaptive Lenses is a welding mask attachment basically (just the shady around the edges view)
Advanced Adaptive Lenses is the same thing, but with thermals installed.

F
L
A
S
H

does using the flash by actually using it do anything or are you just wasting potential uses?

It stuns borgs for a century.

no i mean if you click or hit z with the active flash in hand does it stun people around you

Yes, its the "secret" super robust trick to fuck borgs over since they have to get in melee range and click you, while you just have to zip by them and mash the button in one of 3 adjacent squares to put them out of the fight.

only reason this is even a problem is secborg removal tbh

i don't really care about flashes, honestly if you changed it so it was batons/prods it would be just as bad. they can still say "borg stand still law 2" then come up and kill you. as long as you have an ambush advantage borg is literally 100% dead no matter what.

i still don't know why borgs got the nerfhammer so badly when in 70% of scenarios they are easy as dick to kill

Because babies couldn't kill them and they ignored the glaring weaknesses that all borgs have and cried until they got removed.

Funny you would call us babies when I'm hearing nothing but whining from you

I will say electrical stuns working on borgs would make more sense than them all coming from the bat school of over sensitive eyes, to the point where they freeze in the flash lights like a deer.

Would only make sense if the stuns removed in the peak era of penquin weakness returned though, including sec borgs. Give and take, give stuns take stuns.

Give up on playing cyborg and play augmented humans.

You get total damage immunity as a fully augmented human. And then you have the cybernetic implants.

Cyborgs are not many steps away from being removed from the game anyways.

Scott wrote:Give up on playing cyborg and play augmented humans.

You get total damage immunity as a fully augmented human. And then you have the cybernetic implants.

Cyborgs are not many steps away from being removed from the game anyways.

Well given that they are the only role with any serious rule enforcement over policy and behavior, and their default role is to protect the crew and station, they come between valids and come between antag-murdersprees so obviously they'd get removed on a server where 99% of the community only wants to be antag or kill antags.

Saegrimr wrote:Yes, its the "secret" super robust trick to fuck borgs over since they have to get in melee range and click you, while you just have to zip by them and mash the button in one of 3 adjacent squares to put them out of the fight.

assuming that's an actual thing, then I don't get what people are getting uppity about, flashes seem like a perfect way to take care of borgs.

borgs are uncounterable fam

Ahahaha nigga just get a flash like nigga just walk up and press a button ahaahahha

A3STH3T1CS wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:Yes, its the "secret" super robust trick to fuck borgs over since they have to get in melee range and click you, while you just have to zip by them and mash the button in one of 3 adjacent squares to put them out of the fight.

assuming that's an actual thing, then I don't get what people are getting uppity about, flashes seem like a perfect way to take care of borgs.

Yeah, but then you have to carry a flash.

Go to robotics, go to science. If you are sec you have one already

Security has a vendor full of them. All heads of staff get one, science can print them for basically peanuts in terms of resource cost. Already ontop of EMPs/Ions, laser pointers, and a fucking terminal that can kill them.

and yet people still can't seem to get fucking good against them

Yeah, but they like, have to carry a whole other thing, whereas ebow deals with squishies, so borgs need a nerf man.

>tfw you can buy enough EMP to literally black out the whole fucking station for 2tc

>including an implant that is a fullscreen anti-borg stun/mute/deafen that lasts 15 seconds and drains their battery and damages them

>there is no cooldown to this implant which means you can spamclick to literally kill the borg in like .00001 seconds

>there is no way to detect this implant

>you can use it to stun and subvert them with 100% success rate or kill them

>you also get 6 EMP grenades

>no counters

wew

lad

When are we just gonna homogenize the combat system so nobody feels left out? I'm sick and tired of this skill disparity between """robust""" and the average normal gamer.
Here is what I propose:
First we remove the harm/help/grab intents, move disarm to a toggle like throw.
Batons, prods, and everything else with a stun setting in melee range get removed and compounded into a single bright yellow stick labeled called a Stun Stick. It works on everybody and has no charge, and only security can use them.
All projectiles just get turned into one generic gun, we remove armor values on everything except nuke ops because they're only 5 people so they need help.
Traitors uplink gets reduced down to chameleon projector kits, a kill sword, and a shooty gun. All of these kill instantly because thats what traitors are supposed to do.

I was gonna elaborate on this further but I feel like i've already spent way too much effort on a shitpost and forgot what else I was gonna add.

To be honest I'd be fine if there were a few other ways to handle borgs and remove the flash's supremacy as the anti-borg device, like being unable to stack stuns and a half-second saving grace period to move.
Maybe tasers could drain a set percentage of it's batteries and deactivate a module if it's activated (I.E. Turning off a standard borg's e-sword, an engiborg's stunarm or a mining borg's KA), disablers draining less power and lacking the disable feature of course. Tasers already drain mech batteries so it should be doable.
Stunbatons/prods could discharge a chunk of a cyborg's power, give it confusion and prevent it from using a module for a second or two (and give it a stuttering voice, just for fun).
Throwing/using a pie or using a spraycan (targeting the head) at it could give it blindness until it get's cleaned off. Like retreating to the bathroom and sitting under a shower or using a soap/space cleaner spray on itself if it has one.

I'd like it if the hacked miner borg module could get a syndicate-brand KA that works properly in atmos so it can work as the ranged option, borgs absolutely suck at melee range combat, they only have the element of surprise going for them in combat terms. Non-hacked rogue borgs are even worse. At the moment, only the PK borg can sort of fill the ranged role with it's hacked harm alarm and ineffectively at that.

Reece wrote:

A3STH3T1CS wrote:

Saegrimr wrote:Yes, its the "secret" super robust trick to fuck borgs over since they have to get in melee range and click you, while you just have to zip by them and mash the button in one of 3 adjacent squares to put them out of the fight.

assuming that's an actual thing, then I don't get what people are getting uppity about, flashes seem like a perfect way to take care of borgs.

Yeah, but then you have to carry a flash.

Break into robotics, ask robotics, ask sec, carry one.
I'd probably give you a flash if I still worked in robotics

We could just come to terms that ss13 isn't a game about balance or fairness, but rather fun and whacky shit. Borgs shit on fun, so borgs in turn get shit on by all non borg players.

BUT FUCK THAT, LET'S START ANOTHER BORG DISCUSSION/COMPLAINT ABOUT STUNS/LAWS/RANDOM BULLSHIT #241.

you can't control us with your passive aggressive mess

The fact that cyborgs get defeated very hard in combat is a deliberate design decision made by the original developer/ maintainers over time.

The reasoning is that any given borg is usually very excellent at carrying out the job it's model is for, and they are also immune to atmospheric conditions and many environmental hazards.

So the tradeoff is, you'll suck at combat and you'll never really be able to fight a carbon effectively, but you'll be very very good at your chosen job, as well as emergency response to environmental disaster (assuming any threats have been dealt with by station crew).

edit:
I want to note that this is part evolved over time, but also as part of the original vision of borgs as not getting involved in security enforcement or antag response. Also I think super originally they also sucked at their jobs and were seen as more of a punishment role for antags who were caught and borged.

editedit:
This is also what lead to the sec borg getting removed, as the spot it occupied in the seesaw was awkward, especially with silicon law and policy involved.

finally:
I suggest therefore if you would like to play a role that is involved in combat with antagonists, that you may wish to try security, or a command role.

> Syndicate assault cyborgs
> Not meant for combat
> Not involved with security or antags
> Guaranteed takedown with a single flash
> "Meant to be good at their job"

That 'deliberate design' clearly changed, so perhaps it would be better to adapt to it.

>Borgs not meant for combat.

>Borgs all get flash, harking back to an era where a flash could floor a person without protection

>Borgs all can take marginally more damage than carbons before being forced out of a fight.

>Borgs all had something that was passable as a weapon, and an emag weapon.

>Borgs are the AI soldiers.

>Borgs not meant for combat.

The fuck citrus. I'd expect someone who has been playing as long as you to recognize borgs are INTENTIONALLY put in to change up combat. They couldn't be stunned by traditional means as a way to deter and prevent people from taking the path of least resistance and using a handful of items that would all but guarantee success. By adding an unusual element to the equation, players were expected to think differently and plan ahead with what resources they had or could get. Players aren't meant to just get an e-bow/e-sword combo or rely on a taser to win every single encounter they have. But apparently this server only wants one method to play the game and anything that inhibits that method or encourages thinking outside the box has to go.

Cyborgs should be a punishment, augmenting is all the rage these days.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:Cyborgs should be a punishment

PLAYING THE GAME SHOULD BE A PUNISHMENT

Sligneris wrote:I believe it would be less awful to play as cyborg if conventional current-based stuns (stun batons, stun prods, tele prods) worked on cyborgs, while simple flashes shouldn't stun them, but blind and disorient them like they do to regular humans. Experiencing the one-click stun+blind+mute is an awful experience, and the crew being able to stun-lock silicons in a state like this is awful.

Having such a common item as a hard counter is bullshit, honestly. All it takes is to flash a syndicate cyborg once, and you can just repeatedly smash it with a fire extinguisher while keeping it in a stun-lock forever until it dies. There's sensible counters, such as EMPs, ion rifles and carbine, even laser pointers, then there's this bullshit.

It's instant stun, with no means to protect yourself from (as far as I know borg's equivalent of sunglasses or adrenals aren't a thing) and honestly, it's a terrible experience for something like this to result in a 'gg no re'. So, yeah. Can you give up on your extremely cheap counter once you lose your "no other stuns work on them" excuse and have actual stun weapons stun borgs instead?

It's especially annoying when someone like the , The local nonhuman/MetaGrudger or Hubbie decides to flash you into submission when you are following your laws and either destroys you or flings you into space.

Sligneris wrote:> Syndicate assault cyborgs
> Not meant for combat
> Not involved with security or antags
> Guaranteed takedown with a single flash
> "Meant to be good at their job"

That 'deliberate design' clearly changed, so perhaps it would be better to adapt to it.

The syndicate borg has an incredibly powerful set of weapons that make it able to stand off at range and deal damage, it is clearly not designed to close and engage at close range, even though it has a melee weapon. it is also able to kill the AI very easily.

Why should the syndicate borg be powerful in both ranged, close and anti AI combat? It's a specific tool for a specific job (ranged damage and anti AI). If you truly cared about this just because of the syndicate borg you would also be calling for a nerf to the EMP rifle, which is an incredible ranged weapon against silicon.

Davidchan wrote: >Borgs not meant for combat.

>Borgs all get flash, harking back to an era where a flash could floor a person without protection

>Borgs all can take marginally more damage than carbons before being forced out of a fight.

>Borgs all had something that was passable as a weapon, and an emag weapon.

>Borgs are the AI soldiers.

>Borgs not meant for combat.

The fuck citrus. I'd expect someone who has been playing as long as you to recognize borgs are INTENTIONALLY put in to change up combat. They couldn't be stunned by traditional means as a way to deter and prevent people from taking the path of least resistance and using a handful of items that would all but guarantee success. By adding an unusual element to the equation, players were expected to think differently and plan ahead with what resources they had or could get. Players aren't meant to just get an e-bow/e-sword combo or rely on a taser to win every single encounter they have. But apparently this server only wants one method to play the game and anything that inhibits that method or encourages thinking outside the box has to go.

For what it's worth, I agree that they bring another dimension to combat, but I argue that most borgs are mostly combat ineffective unless you can bring down the player at range and most of them do not have that ranged stun, I would argue that given two players with the same skill level the human player will beat the borg 99% of the time because the flash is so effective, my argument is that this is intentional to introduce asymmetry into the game which makes for more interesting decisions.

edit: I guess my last post would be more accurate if you replaced combat, with close quarters combat.

Borgs have their own stupidly powerful AOE stun in the form of welder bombs. Welder bombs and flashes are about equal in strength.

The real solution is to leave things as is and tell the Borg's to get good. They aren't sit at combat you just need to use your tools right.

pubby wrote:Borgs have their own stupidly powerful AOE stun in the form of welder bombs. Welder bombs and flashes are about equal in strength.

Welder tanks can be detonated at range and force you to damage yourself to use. If you got pinged enough times with a laser, that tank bomb will end up killing you and cyborgs cannot be revived by anything other than a carbon player.

While a flash is concealable, can be used more than once and can't be shot at to make explode and stuns borgs in a way that they cannot possibly protect themselves from (carbons can get flash protection). Borgs must get into flash range in order to do anything against you and if you get them once, you can just chain flash them to keep them permanently stunned while you hit them with a harm intent welder that does irreparable burn damage.

The flash is outright superior to a welder tank bomb.

a borgs real weapon is never even coming close to humans in conflict. just AoE flash, bolt doors, call sec, and then run away with your eyes closed so you dont see the 10000 law 1 violations sec is about to perform.

those damn borgs following sillicon policy what a horror

Obviously we should punish them more and make every action by a borg to a carbon player a "borg x is trying to use (module) on you. Do you consent?" And if they click no the borg is auto locked down till robotics can reset them.

Because how else is the AI supposed to see? And the old method of having to jump between cameras via the camera list was godawful, and Goon's AI eye causes motion sickness with the way it yanks around more than a leper's cock.
Plus the AI can be subverted, has a hard and fast rule policy (while security's is a little more relaxed in comparison) and should not care about minor crimes or major crimes if they're exclusively between non-Humans. While a security officer would get bwoinked for ignoring or helping in the theft of a traitor objective/helping or ignoring a traitor killing a Lizardperson and so on.

AIs that call sec for minor crimes are shit AIs in my honest opinion and I'd make it policy for them to ignore anything less than outright assault/murder between Humans but I'm just a guy with a opinion.

Removing default access to departmental radio? Fuck that. Whether you believe it or not, people will actually use their dept radio to make requests to the AI directly because

1) The color offset makes it more likely the AI will see the request or law demand in a sea of green.

2) It allows dept related requests to be directed at the AI in question WITHOUT relaying that information to unwanted parties directly. Whether this is access requests, information updates or general banter that doesn't need to be placed on the public channel but can benefit the department; for example the AI announcing over medical channel the location of an injured crew member or dead body, or complaining with a tracking/location request to security/command about suspicious individuals.

3) The AI is meant to be a tool to assist departments in their jobs. Taking away the most direct means to use this tool is fucking awful.

I can't tell if you're just salty ded plz nerf because an AI just shutdown your reckless antagging or you just don't play AI in general because either way you're requesting to take away something that's practically a core feature for no other reason than 'someone might valid' as if that's a fucking excuse.

It's a silicon haters trying to rationalize their tears episode again

or you know

he could have dragged the body outside the camera range
smashed the camera in one hit
EMPed the room
disguised as someone else
monkeyed to ventcrawl
took you hostage to force the AI to open the doors
pulsed the bolt wire
deconned the walls
got another chang e ling to help
killed the AI like 20 minutes ago in like 10 seconds with zero effort
subverted the AI to start with

and on and on and on and on

also he's the HOP so he has a FUCKING DOOR REMOTE

HE CAN JUST UNBOLT THE DOORS

HE COULD HAVE LEFT AT ANY TIME REEEEEEEE

CosmicScientist wrote:>might valid
>always valid
Take away the command and security channels it has for christ's sake.

Take away default access to the two channels that utilize the AI the most. Genius!



As for your arguments about letting preventing people from facing antags because harm, Law 1 doesn't apply to self harm or conscious decisions with known risks. As long as you the Captain were aware that the person in the room was capable of killing you and you still decided to go in there, the AI is free to let you in.

>Humans can be assumed to know whether an action will harm them and that they will make educated decisions about whether they will be harmed if they have complete information about a situation.

Isn't it policy that changelings aren't human once the AI has confirmation they are a changeling?

yes

changeling just doesn't understand the fucking rules, which as pretty typical for these sorts of complaints

AI did nothing wrong who cares

if the problem was that the AI let him inside there is no problem

if the problem was that the AI is too powerful that isn't fucking true because the HOP had like 50 ways out of the fucking room, he's just a fucking moron

0/10 complaint not even a seed of anything worthwhile here see you in a month when the tears start again over the extraordinarily nerfed nigh defenceless AI ruining your game by helping you kill an inhuman monster from beyond the stars it's obligated to murder