/tg/Station 13

Now that the post-implementation frenzy has mostly subsided, the mode's been out for a few months now, and people have had a good time to form their opinions and general perceptions of the gamemode. How do you feel about it right now? What can be changed? Improved? If you write a rant post about it being the most awful thing ever, at least explain why, and do the same thing if you love it, too.

Some issues exist, mostly with unlock progression/play; later scriptures don't get enough time to shine because you either can't get to them to use them or you do get to them, but are snowballing so wildly you don't need them anyway.

M E N U S

I still don't like it. I'm glad that all of the cross-map FUCK YOU I WIN buttons have been removed but compared to blood cult there's just so fucking little going on-- and the powers are all fucking /weird/. I like blood cult because everything is simple and useful, the stun talisman is a simple weapon, it just stuns and mutes someone, but the utility is massive. Stun a guy and sac him, stun a guy and kill him, stun a guy and run, the list goes on. Clock cult on the other hand is the opposite, everything is so goddamn situational, nearly all the things on the list never get used because nobody understands how it works.And fuck me sideways if someone understands the madness, because clockcuck snowballs UNGODLY fast, and unless you stomp them hard and fast they WILL win.

tl;dr It went from garbage to tolerable.

I've been on the recieving end of it during most rounds as sec. unfortunately I've not been graced with formidable opponents.

The speed that the cult can lock down entire departments is astonishing and unfair.

The constructs are rather unfair in some cases. Most in particular the marauders are completely disgusting to play against.

The chaplain mechanic is discouraged.

The game mode is a case of player competency; I've been handed the incompetent players as a result of my experience thorough I've seen clock cult spiral completely out of control.

Needs work, has potential

Doesn't happen enough, but the idea and concept are pretty unique (build instead of robust).

So, the major things I've gathered here:

1. Too many situational things, more simplicity needed
2. Snowballs faster than Frosty if players are competent
3. Needs UI for slabs instead of what we have now

Thanks for actually taking the time to write out why you're disliking the gamemode instead of just mindlessly complaining. I'll keep this in mind both for the future of clockcult and for the Being. Keep it coming.

Needs to be more antagonistic so people don't just run up to cultists for that free antag.

Seconded, but that's more of a player problem than a gamemode problem.

Kor wrote:M E N U S

Menus with lots of things nobody ever uses because ss13 philosophy always followed the line of least resistance.

Anonus wrote:Some issues exist, mostly with unlock progression/play; later scriptures don't get enough time to shine because you either can't get to them to use them or you do get to them, but are snowballing so wildly you don't need them anyway.

i would agree with this, and also this may just be my own personal stupidity but im not quite sure how resources are earned/distributed. i think they recharge after a certain (maybe random?) amount of time but is it random which component you get per "recharge?" when a cache is made, do all members have universal access to it?

overall its fairly decent though, rounds with narnar vs ratty vs poor bystanders (read: sec) are usually fun.

Deitus wrote:questions

Basically: by default, slabs generate random components at a fairly low rate (once every minute, I think?) and they're stored in the tablet itself. Nobody else can use them. Caches function as access points to the global cache; the global cache is a pooled collection of components that slabs can draw from. You can add components to the global cache by hitting a tinkerer's cache with your slab to offload its components or through clockwork walls, which cause component generation in nearby caches. The tinkerer's daemon - created through a high-tier scripture - can also be placed into a cache to generate components quickly.

I miss clockwork cult whiteship

Both of the cult game modes wouldn't snowball so bad if cult's gained MUCH more from sac'ing people as opposed to converting them.

Clockcult in of itself just seems under whelming in general, there's plenty of other shit that could be done, but most of it seems to be consisting of very situational and very clunky spells and scripture.

I think the cults got such a shift to conversion because people cry and scream to admins/the forums when they are killed

Most people don't know what they're doing, which causes the round to get ruined.

Because the round gets ruined, we lower the rotation.

Because we lower the rotation, people don't have opportunities to practice/ learn the [complicated] mechanics.

Because people don't have opportunities to practice, people don't know what they're doing so we go in a circle.

Quite the predicament.

John_Oxford wrote:Both of the cult game modes wouldn't snowball so bad if cult's gained MUCH more from sac'ing people as opposed to converting them.

Killing is easier than capturing, i'd rather not have it be more rewarding too. Plus i like the stealth-kidnap action more than deathmatch-murderbone action.

My idea would be to put convertees on a lower level than the original cultists, maybe taking away their ability to convert (while still being able to assist in conversion), so that snowball is reduced, plus you'd give the cult a central weakness: if you kill the main cultists they'll stop growing (until they manage to revive them).

XDTM wrote:

John_Oxford wrote:Both of the cult game modes wouldn't snowball so bad if cult's gained MUCH more from sac'ing people as opposed to converting them.

Killing is easier than capturing, i'd rather not have it be more rewarding too. Plus i like the stealth-kidnap action more than deathmatch-murderbone action.

you should crit people in bloodcult tho, like drain their life to -75% then convert them for max efficiency.

I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

I like it, but the downfall of construct cult was if anyone in your team was bad it was like nukers but even worse. Ensure there's a way to gain new members at say, tier 3 but it's expensive/difficult and I'd be down.

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Doesn't that just purport the issue of "what the fuck am I doing" when they can't even test out clockwork mechanics since they're a clockwork machine?

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Doesn't that just purport the issue of "what the fuck am I doing" when they can't even test out clockwork mechanics since they're a clockwork machine?

Convertee mechanics wouldn't really be a problem. Constructs would serve specific roles, such as artificers building and wraiths infiltrating - stuff like that.

Xhuis wrote:

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Doesn't that just purport the issue of "what the fuck am I doing" when they can't even test out clockwork mechanics since they're a clockwork machine?

Convertee mechanics wouldn't really be a problem. Constructs would serve specific roles, such as artificers building and wraiths infiltrating - stuff like that.

I was referring to being the actual cultist, unless you plan on dumbing that down [which basically just makes it a different style bloodcult by that point].

It greatly mends the issue of WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING if there's a small team of human cultists with the whole breath of clockcult powers and a whole lot of constructs with very simple jobs. It's what I love about blood cult, I'd rather have a dozen constructs than a dozen cultists because a fucking infant could play a robust juggernaut, while the cultists have a much harder time.

I was thinking of giving the actual cultists themselves cooler powers too. I've been mentally toying around with the idea of branding sigils into the flesh that are obvious if you're not clothed but let you do crazy stuff like blink and project forcefields.

You could either go the route and make clockcultists HOLY SUPERHEROS, or you could delegate them as kings of a mighty construct army, delegating the hard work to their feeble machine workers as they toil away in their stone towers maint fortresses as they gather power to build a big summoning beacon for Ratvar to nuke the station. I'm rather fond of the second, myself.

Hell, you could go the route of DnD references and just port a whole bunch of constructs from there as minions.

ShadowDimentio wrote:It greatly mends the issue of WHAT THE FUCK AM I DOING if there's a small team of human cultists with the whole breath of clockcult powers and a whole lot of constructs with very simple jobs. It's what I love about blood cult, I'd rather have a dozen constructs than a dozen cultists because a fucking infant could play a robust juggernaut, while the cultists have a much harder time.

But that doesn't fix the problem of not knowing what to do, that just gives them a boring job. When the next clockcult round goes, they'd have no more experience than they did when they were a construct because you just do menial tasks instead of actual cult stuff.

"So how do I play as a clockcult?"

"Don't worry about it you're going to be a drone that clicks on shit to turn it clockwork themed, have fun!"
or
"Oh don't worry about it, just go kill some dweebs and come back with the bodies so they can kill the dweebs too".

One of my favorite aspects of Clockwork is the complexity of it. The guide was too daunting for my tastes, so when I got cultist for the first time I had to ask a lot of questions, but that was alright because then I was able to do the stuff on my own. I wouldn't have been inclined to ask questions if I was say a cogscarab, because my job isn't to do those cultist-oriented tasks [except maybe stand next to someone occasionally to help them do theirs].

I just think hands-on experience is one of the better ways of learning game mechanics than reading a guide and hoping for the best.

I agree, but I'm not talking about what's good for them /as an individual/, I'm talking about what's good for the /team/. A cultist with no idea what he's doing is often worse than useless, they actively damage the team through their ignorance. Constructs don't have that problem, as they're so simple and easy to play.

ShadowDimentio wrote:You could either go the route and make clockcultists HOLY SUPERHEROS...

"Holy". Heh.

ExcessiveCobblestone wrote:-snip-

As I move forward into the construct/megacultist patch I'll be keeping this thread and the PR updated. I'm accepting all suggestions there. I aim to have the playstyle become an "easy to learn, hard to master" type thing, where a newbie can still do well but someone who's well-versed in the mechanics can wreak havoc with a little know-how.

Sorry, this is Joan's mode so you'll have to run all changes past them.

That's a shitty position to take Kor

He's joking, don't worry.

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Sorry, What the fuck?

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Is this not just literally the concept of bloodcult's "new"cult that everyone hated?

They hated it because oldcult was miles, MILES better than it, not a new gamemode trying some new system.

francinum wrote:

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking of reworking the core mechanic (conversion) somewhat, making a more construct bloodcult vibe where the captured are just killed, their consciousness extracted into a soul vessel, and their new body put into a machine. What are your thoughts on that?

Sorry, What the fuck?

Nothing is final. You have to realize that this isn't the set-in-stone path for clockcult, nor does getting upset out change anything for the better.

Xhuis wrote:I've been thinking

Xhuis wrote:thinking

Also, I haven't seen or played the new bloodcult all that much. What's it like now?

Newcult was a rework of bloodcult sometime around the end of last year/beginning of this year. The only cultists were the roundstart cultists and to actually grow their numbers they could only sacrifice people and make cult constructs out of them. They lost the talisman system (or atleast stunpaper, and the construction system didnt exist at the time), and gained alot of new runes that have crazy powers. It was almost universally panned.

Also, this may be me(or basil), but clock cult feels really weak right now with the advent of stunprod nerfs with no compensation. It's really feast or famine gameplay, it seems. Either your cult is graced with someone who has access stuns, or you lose thanks to basically all the powers being useless for conversion until level 3. Judicial visors are a fuck-huge giveaway, have a significant delay, don't stun long enough to cuff people (or even guvax them, not that it matters with the dynamic guvax channel time depending on the size of the cult). Ratvarian spear is slightly less of a giveaway and more instant, but still doesnt stun long enough for any form of cuff/conversions.

Going from what Kel said, your best chance for stuns is converting an engiborg.

I like it, just needs to be higher in the percentage.

Yeah if you do anything, the one thing Clockcuck needs is a good stun at the start.

I'll add a stun scripture, or maybe replace Belligerent with one, in the upcoming PR. Thanks for all the input.

It's quite good when people understand it, but it desperately needs it's information about what does what and how various weirdly named things actually work consolidated somewhere. As-is, the interface is a difficult to navigate slurry of lore and what stuff actually does. While that makes for fun reading, when you're trying to sort through an interface in a time-sensitive project it's not very helpful.

Drynwyn wrote:It's quite good when people understand it, but it desperately needs it's information about what does what and how various weirdly named things actually work consolidated somewhere. As-is, the interface is a difficult to navigate slurry of lore and what stuff actually does. While that makes for fun reading, when you're trying to sort through an interface in a time-sensitive project it's not very helpful.

The upcoming PR will have a complete rewrite of Recollection, turning it into an actual Tutorial instead of reading like badly-written fanfiction.

My biggest gripe with both clock cult and blood cult is that feel like they have too much bloat and can cover too many corners with their abilities. Just look at all the shit the two have compared to something simple like gang.

Blood cult : Shielded hardsuits, free eswords, shuttle delay, construct spam, spammable stun papers, healing floor tiles, a nearly station wide emp with coordination, summoning cultists anywhere.

Clock cult : The fucking cogscarabs, marauders, stands, conversion through implants, conversion without even needing a rune, summon able on demand spears, easy healing method, fucks tons of others things that are never even used. Not to mention the absolute ease it is convert a silicon and thus the AI afterwards.

Contrast this with something like a average traitor and you'll only get the tools you want, not everything you need. Even something like a revolution which gives it's antags nothing but the gear the station comes equipped with can manage to bring security/command to their knees and they don't have some shithead making laser immune juggernauts for back up.

The two cults practically have a tool for any scenario they can face, and then some. Stopping a blood cult rampage once they have a initial start up is a monumental up hill battle, and stopping a clock cult at all is a massive chore as long as they keep making cogscarabs. I'm 100% confident in saying that only reason either win % for the cults is low is because of player incompetence and experience.

And to top it all off, we have these two fucking monster of a power house game modes and the only fucking counter (that isn't just killing everyone) is a job that doesn't even have a purpose the other 90% of the time.

Durkel wrote:Clock cult : The fucking cogscarabs, marauders, stands, conversion through implants, conversion without even needing a rune, summon able on demand spears, easy healing method, fucks tons of others things that are never even used. Not to mention the absolute ease it is convert a silicon and thus the AI afterwards.

If it's any comfort, most of these things didn't exist in the gamemode's first iteration. I specifically designed it in a way that required the crew not to rely on just their cultist arsenal and instead utilized the station's resources, like using first aid kits to heal and tools to break down room for their base. A lot of these things were added post-merge in an attempt to make the gamemode entirely self-sufficient - something I was indifferent to at the time but now strongly oppose.

I agree with everything you said, though, and it's this kind of feedback that I really want the most. I'll keep it all in mind when I continue work later today.

On one hand having all the tools for victory at your disposal lends to competent players curb-stomping the enemy if they aren't even more competent, but on the other it would stand to reason that an antag would have better gear than everyone else otherwise they're nothing more than a crewmember that can randomly kill people and not get banned.

to be fair you don't exactly have a forever "Valid me" item on you in traitor unless you choose to, and you can still complete your objectives just as fine if you never pulled any tell's out.

In [clock, specifically] cult, it is required to have the item on you to benefit your team. For those who don't know, you MUST have the slab on your persona to generate parts, which are required for nearly every chant. Not to mention that once cult gets outed over radio, it's not exactly uncommon to be legitimately randomly-tased, abducted, and put on the deconversion train.

I like the bloat, I think it allows for different experiences each time if the cults prepare. In that way, I think the team composition and competency of the players heavily defines the gamemode to create something more than a traitor with a different art-scheme. You'd only ever have EVERY structure when you're heavily curbstomping noncultists anyways.

My main goals with the changes I'm doing is mainly to reduce the huge amount of situational scripture that only sees use in certain areas but is unstoppable when it does see use (for instance, Taunting Tirade is by far the easiest non-teleportation escape method because of how insanely powerful it is, and mania motors are exceptional at making assaults even more impossible). Ideally, there'd be a set of well-rounded scripture that can see use in a lot of situations without making skilled opposition have no chance.

Feedback-based PR has been created here. Input appreciated.