/tg/Station 13

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 2:24 am**

While golems in essence are a good idea: A way to get ghosts back into the round and as a reward for dedicated xenobiology work, I think in practice they cause an inordinate amount of hassle.

Any time someone makes more than a few of them, it seems like the same thing always happens. One of them inevitably gets into a fight with someone, and then through the power of guilt-by-association the Great Golem Purge begins.

It's not hard to see why: Golems essentially have even fewer responsibilities than an assistant. Unlike an assistant however, they get riot-tier armor and don't need to breathe -- they're easy to consider a threat. They're not 'real' crewmembers, so they're treated more poorly by the actual crew, including security and silicons. They have no IDs or equipment to start with, which encourages them to steal necessary equipment. They are also often created en masse by traitors who bid them to wreck people indiscriminately.
It all adds up to an entity that feels disposable yet dangerous, a prime target for harmbatonnu.

I think we should make them feel less disposable, first of all. I think the best way to do this is to limit each person to a single golem. Another person can summon another golem under his command, but a single person can only have own golem of his own. This also limits the power of TRAITORSWARM golems and increases personal liability/attachment to them.
Masters will be more inclined to hang out with their golem instead of doing what they do now: Say "I command you to wander off and do whatever you please"/"I command you to wander off and murder everyone" if traitor.

I'd also like golems to have more distinct names. I don't think it'd be thematic for them to have default randomnames or to pick their own name, but they could draw from a separate pool (caveman-ish names? GROD HARDSMASH or SLATE BODYCURL) or possibly have an anagram/reversed letters of their master. Or something. Making each one seem more unique should keep blame focused on whichever golem actually was at fault.

The last thing I hate about golems, and this might just be a personal matter, is the rune fluff. This is the Science department! I hate that the pinnacle of Xenobiology is magic circle. Runes are too mystical to fit in and the Cult already has a monopoly on runes which I feel should be maintained for the sake of clarity-- We don't need scientists getting beaten to death by dumbasses who think they're hailing Nar-Sie.

If you have any other feedback regarding golems, feel free to post.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:05 pm**

What's that golem's name again?

BIG MCLARGEHUGE

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:54 pm**

I agree with everything but one golem per person.

Sorry, but commanding an army of them is simply too much fun.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 5:19 pm**

Reimoo wrote:I agree with everything but one golem per person.

Sorry, but commanding an army of them is simply too much fun.

Basically this. Excepting the Great Golem Shitcurity Purge™ I've rarely seen more than 4 at any given time anyway. Limiting them to 1 would just limit the number of players brought back in through a mechanic that takes 20+ minutes to reach.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:06 pm**

The rune thing is kind of iffy, yes.
What if we just made a sort of "empty golem" model instead? The eyes light up red when it's active, dark while inactive. Maybe make a sort of opening in the chest cavity to make it more obvious it's an inactive golem. It can light up green like the runes when it's good to go.

The only issue I can see there is that it would be weird that it's non-movable like a corpse is.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:12 pm**

Make a sprite akin to the "Ghost Catcher" from Ghost Busters, when a ghosted player is above it it emits a bright green glow.

Posted: **Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:27 pm**

Just make golems work like pAIs.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:05 am**

While we're on the subject. Why do golems count as both wearing impossible to remove boots but then trip on broken glass? There's no good reason for a golem made of adamantine to be tripped up by a couple bits of broken glass.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 2:55 am**

DIRK HARDPEC

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:50 am**

It has also come to my attention that Sybil golems cannot wear hats. What the fuck is this? A horrible injustice. How am I supposed to tell my minions apart now?

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:09 am**

Golems on Sybil can wear hats as far as I recall, unless it was changed recently.

Posted: **Thu Jul 10, 2014 7:58 am**

Steelpoint wrote:Golems on Sybil can wear hats as far as I recall, unless it was changed recently.

Unless they're limited only to certain hats, this is not the case. I tried a TG code ministation compile I run personally and golems could wear hats without incident. However, none of my golems in sybil rounds have been able to wear hats. Apparently they can wear the clown's boxer shorts et al, but hats are out of the question.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:17 am**

dealing with golems as sec is shit.

you can't tell who the perp is in a crowd of golems trying to run away at sanic speeds after assaulting / stealing, etc.

naming golems will solve a LOT of problems with golems.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:47 am**

BLAST HARDCHEESE

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 6:57 am**

Swagile wrote:golems trying to run away at sanic speeds

Explain.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:22 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:golems trying to run away at sanic speeds
Explain.

When there is 10 of them and one of you with a measly taser and a flashbang, you see where the problem lies. The sanic speed is an exaggeration.

Posted: **Fri Jul 11, 2014 5:34 pm**

Swagile wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:golems trying to run away at sanic speeds
Explain.
When there is 10 of them and one of you with a measly taser and a flashbang, you see where the problem lies. The sanic speed is an exaggeration.

Then you have a management breakdown, not a golem problem. Or rather, you have a golem "problem" caused by a breakdown in management. Where was the RD when all of these golems were being made? If the RD made the golems, then the golems answer to him so you deal with the RD. Its not like golems spawn randomly and start breaking windows. They're bound to their summoner and the commands of that summoner as their master. Find the master (NOT chase down and taze, cuff. assault lest the golems spring to action defending their master from you assaulting them), figure out what is going on, if the master is malicious, deal with them. What sec tends to do instead is more like this

>Oh god golems on the station
>Golems are really tough and scary
>I'm not very tough or scary
>Kill all the golems before they can kill me

I mean, its not like golems are some new thing. As far as I know, I'm the only guy on Sybil that even mass produces the things and I've only even used them as an antag twice. One time the RNG was on my side and I even got a team of 4 golems out fast enough to fight off a nukeops team. That was pretty fuckin cool actually.

Posted: **Sat Jul 12, 2014 3:57 am**

Using golems as a cultist is pretty robust, if you got friends to convert them.

Posted: **Sat Jul 12, 2014 1:48 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:golems trying to run away at sanic speeds
Explain.
When there is 10 of them and one of you with a measly taser and a flashbang, you see where the problem lies. The sanic speed is an exaggeration.
Then you have a management breakdown, not a golem problem. Or rather, you have a golem "problem" caused by a breakdown in management. Where was the RD when all of these golems were being made? .

>Expecting heads to take responsibility for their departments
Ain't from around 'ere, are ye boy?

Posted: **Sat Jul 12, 2014 4:19 pm**

Malkevin wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Swagile wrote:golems trying to run away at sanic speeds
Explain.
When there is 10 of them and one of you with a measly taser and a flashbang, you see where the problem lies. The sanic speed is an exaggeration.
Then you have a management breakdown, not a golem problem. Or rather, you have a golem "problem" caused by a breakdown in management. Where was the RD when all of these golems were being made? .
>Expecting heads to take responsibility for their departments
Ain't from around 'ere, are ye boy?

Yeah, no kidding. I mean, when the HoS leads a department where the only solution to literally anything is "shoot it until it stops moving, no exceptions", I don't know what anyone else would expect either.

Posted: **Sun Jul 13, 2014 2:13 am**

There are problems with this idea.

Golems aren't actually powerful. They're slow, can barely wear any equipment, start with nothing and even then, typically only appear 30 minutes in (i.e. over half the round has elapsed). Even with swarms of golems, their effectiveness is rather moderate. They're easily swept up into space because of their slow speed, and because of the same, thermal damage can reduce them to a crawl, resulting in subsequent, quick death. They're very fragile if attacked with any sort of energy-based weapon (you know, those ones that almost the entire crew uses), and their slow speed means they can't even dodge effectively to close the distance. They don't have hulk, they can't break walls, they can't even break glass, they trip on fucking glass while not being able to wear shoes and they cannot do anything on their own until they magically acquire an ID from the (half the time dead or absent) HoP or find tools to hack doors.

They're a very inert force on the station compared to everything else, especially at that point, and you propose making it even weaker, less effective and therefore less wanted, in a department that is rarely used, while simultaneously letting far fewer people back into the round. This is a ridiculous query, rather, if anything, I'd say they need a buff to be brought in line with everything else. Names, sure, that sounds good. 1 golem limit? Fuck that.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:15 am**

Amelius wrote:There are problems with this idea.

Golems aren't actually powerful. They're slow, can barely wear any equipment, start with nothing and even then, typically only appear 30 minutes in (i.e. over half the round has elapsed). Even with swarms of golems, their effectiveness is rather moderate. They're easily swept up into space because of their slow speed, and because of the same, thermal damage can reduce them to a crawl, resulting in subsequent, quick death. They're very fragile if attacked with any sort of energy-based weapon (you know, those ones that almost the entire crew uses), and their slow speed means they can't even dodge effectively to close the distance. They don't have hulk, they can't break walls, they can't even break glass, they trip on fucking glass while not being able to wear shoes and they cannot do anything on their own until they magically acquire an ID from the (half the time dead or absent) HoP or find tools to hack doors.

They're a very inert force on the station compared to everything else, especially at that point, and you propose making it even weaker, less effective and therefore less wanted, in a department that is rarely used, while simultaneously letting far fewer people back into the round. This is a ridiculous query, rather, if anything, I'd say they need a buff to be brought in line with everything else. Names, sure, that sounds good. 1 golem limit? Fuck that.

Please attempt to have some idea of what you're talking about before making posts. Golems are completely unaffected by cold, they don't even need to breathe. They are no more fragile to energy weapons than any other crewmember, and the "entire crew" is certainly not armed with energy guns and lasers. All the other limitations such as tools and IDs apply just as much to normal crewmembers as to golems.

Just as many people can get into the round. Already got a golem? Neat, give them to your coworkers, give one to your boss. Place some runes in the hallways and let some people get a buddy. It's not necessary to horde them right now anyway, since nobody actually gives their golems orders right now. But if you were only limited to one, then it would carry more value.

Posted: **Mon Jul 14, 2014 5:53 am**

Cheridan wrote: Just as many people can get into the round. Already got a golem? Neat, give them to your coworkers, give one to your boss. Place some runes in the hallways and let some people get a buddy. It's not necessary to horde them right now anyway, since nobody actually gives their golems orders right now. But if you were only limited to one, then it would carry more value.

I honestly can't tell if you're joking here. Granted, I've only got my personal anecdotal knowledge and experiences to base this on. However, I've never seen a single round where golems were made and then simply "set loose" on the station as it were. I've never seen an independent golem just kinda left to their own devices (except in one case where the master was killed but then the golems were still following their given objective/goal). In each case I've summoned them I've either communicated clear goals or instructions to them. 9/10 those instructions amounted to "protect me and protect X(,Y and Z) other people." Given that golems don't even start with assistant level IDs means that they have to be let out of the science department by the their creator. They're also bound to that creator's commands. I've literally not seen one case of what you describe. Given that, I cannot see the benefit of limiting golem populations to solve a non-existent horde issue.

Posted: **Fri Jul 18, 2014 11:15 pm**

cedarbridge wrote:
Cheridan wrote: Just as many people can get into the round. Already got a golem? Neat, give them to your coworkers, give one to your boss. Place some runes in the hallways and let some people get a buddy. It's not necessary to horde them right now anyway, since nobody actually gives their golems orders right now. But if you were only limited to one, then it would carry more value.
However, I've never seen a single round where golems were made and then simply "set loose" on the station as it were. I've never seen an independent golem just kinda left to their own devices (except in one case where the master was killed but then the golems were still following their given objective/goal).

I've been golem'd roughly two dozen times by non-antags. About half the time I got told "Do whatever the fuck you want". The other half I got IGNORED by my master. Only once have I been given actual orders by a non-antag, and those orders were to take over golem production because he was going braindead.

Posted: **Sat Jul 19, 2014 6:35 am**

Aurx wrote:
cedarbridge wrote:
Cheridan wrote: Just as many people can get into the round. Already got a golem? Neat, give them to your coworkers, give one to your boss. Place some runes in the hallways and let some people get a buddy. It's not necessary to horde them right now anyway, since nobody actually gives their golems orders right now. But if you were only limited to one, then it would carry more value.
However, I've never seen a single round where golems were made and then simply "set loose" on the station as it were. I've never seen an independent golem just kinda left to their own devices (except in one case where the master was killed but then the golems were still following their given objective/goal).
I've been golem'd roughly two dozen times by non-antags. About half the time I got told "Do whatever the fuck you want". The other half I got IGNORED by my master. Only once have I been given actual orders by a non-antag, and those orders were to take over golem production because he was going braindead.

Ironically, I did have a master (for the first time) tell me to "do whatever." At the end of the round they ended up as an antag and didn't complete their objectives. I kinda just wandered around. It was surreal but I just kinda get the idea that xenobio players don't really know/take advantage of adamantine and a lot consider it just another color getting in the way of more "lel goldz" mob spam.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:48 am**

Stop hugboxing, leave golems be.

They're hard enough to get as it is, no need to limit them.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 6:52 am**

Maybe instead of using runes, use different combinations of slime colors/metals/wires/glass/whatever to create an item called a "golem transponder" which "summons" a golem from the "golem planet". Or something. Yes I agree runes are a bit silly and should be confined to crayons/cultists.

Posted: **Fri Jul 25, 2014 3:05 pm**

mrpain wrote:Maybe instead of using runes, use different combinations of slime colors/metals/wires/glass/whatever to create an item called a "golem transponder" which "summons" a golem from the "golem planet". Or something. Yes I agree runes are a bit silly and should be confined to crayons/cultists.

Too complicated in relation to literally every other slime core type.

Posted: **Mon Aug 11, 2014 10:33 pm**

Jesus Christ, who the fuck thought that making guys who cannot wear shoes fall on broken glass was a good idea? They're slow as fuck, why nerf the damn golems. Not everything has to be about fucking tasers. Jesus broken glass is gonna haunt me at night.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2014 11:18 am**

Lo6a4evskiy wrote:broken glass is gonna haunt me at night.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2014 2:47 pm**

Remove the Rune, add names, and FUCKING ALLOW THEM TO AT LEAST WEAR JACKBOOTS GODDAMN

Other then that, golems are fine.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2014 3:56 pm**

MedicInDisquise wrote:Remove the Rune, add names, and FUCKING ALLOW THEM TO AT LEAST WEAR JACKBOOTS GODDAMN

Other then that, golems are fine.

There's actually a set of "golem feet" "shoes"...

Code: Select all

/obj/item/clothing/shoes/golem
	name = "golem's feet"
	desc = "sturdy adamantine feet"
	icon_state = "golem"
	item_state = null
	flags = NOSLIP | ABSTRACT | NODROP

...But if golems still seem to be cutting themselves on glass shards, then it's possible that they're not being used, or something else is broken.

Posted: **Tue Aug 12, 2014 4:33 pm**

I think golems should not be Xenobiology. Hand that shit over to the cultists/chaplain/Librarian?. Or maybe a slime that those others need in order to summon a golem, promoting teamwork and sharing among the crew.

Posted: **Tue Aug 19, 2014 4:01 pm**

Konork wrote:
MedicInDisquise wrote:Remove the Rune, add names, and FUCKING ALLOW THEM TO AT LEAST WEAR JACKBOOTS GODDAMN

Other then that, golems are fine.
There's actually a set of "golem feet" "shoes"...
Code: Select all
/obj/item/clothing/shoes/golem
	name = "golem's feet"
	desc = "sturdy adamantine feet"
	icon_state = "golem"
	item_state = null
	flags = NOSLIP | ABSTRACT | NODROP
...But if golems still seem to be cutting themselves on glass shards, then it's possible that they're not being used, or something else is broken.

Its very likely they're just broken. This is part of the reason golems can't equip shoesof any sort. The code assumes the slot is occupied by something, but that something is broken/incomplete. That and golems have no_equip set on every slot. This also crops up with golem hands, which are supposed to be insulated. They're very not and I've had golems sent off to deal with unruly APCs just end up getting shocked to death.

Edit: Now that I think about it, I think the code is just redundant. I'll look at it again when I get home, but I don't think I've ever seen these parts actually visible on the golems themselves. I think its something about the sort of ghosting that golem "face masks" do where they're not visible on the model but still prevent CPR and the like (though I think they can perform CPR so they function like a clown/mime mask.) Mob code is a clusterfuck and I just haven't had the time to sit down properly and sort out how to make some of this make a little more sense (and get golems their hats back)

Scott wrote:I think golems should not be Xenobiology. Hand that shit over to the cultists/chaplain/Librarian?. Or maybe a slime that those others need in order to summon a golem, promoting teamwork and sharing among the crew.

For what reason should they be removed? I'm not really seeing an argument for it and giving it to those suggested areas doesn't really make sense. Cult has constructs. Librarian/Chaplain have nothing to do with golems. I don't really get why other departments should be "given" or "shared" the end fruits of Xenobio's slog through the color tree with nothing but the good feeling that the chaplain/librarian/whoever gets to play with a toy they didn't toil for. I'm going to go ahead and ask, have you ever actually done xenobio before?

/tg/Station 13

Adamantium Golems

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