Umbrage: Shadowling Redux (delayed?)

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:13 am #242786

Bottom post of the previous page:

but that's literally just the ratvar lore

oh, but i love the ratvar lore, so i like it!

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:28 am #242829

Armhulen wrote:but that's literally just the ratvar lore

oh, but i love the ratvar lore, so i like it!

I'm not really that creative with lore.

Original shadowlings had U'ruu, who was in a void between realms and used shadowlings as his influence
Clockcult has Ratvar, who is in a void between realms and uses cultists as his influence
Veils believe that umbrages have the Progenitor, who is in a void between realms and uses umbrages as its influence

The Progenitor is a figure of myth, though. He isn't real at all, but the umbrages use the lie that he is to enslave their veils into doing their dirty work.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:53 am #242856

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... g_reee.mp4

Post by **Cobby** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:38 am #242876

Aloraydrel wrote:Hand of God was better

Bring it back so I have an excuse to dump snowflake weapons somewhere besides lavaland.

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:08 am #242890

Xhuis wrote:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... g_reee.mp4

1. do they hear the scream?

2. are you planning more escape tools

3. AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBLAAAAAAA

Post by **oranges** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:23 am #242924

What's your obsession with things in voids?

Anonmare · Post by **Anonmare** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:39 pm #242949

Well technically oranges, everything on the station is in a void when you think about it.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:51 pm

Xhuis wrote:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... g_reee.mp4

Like the idea but I don't think it'll work in practice. Shadowling would just get tazed and lazed or have a flare thrown on them, rendering the skill useless barring a sec officer retarded enough to try and arrest you.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 2:07 pm #242957

Armhulen wrote:
Xhuis wrote:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... g_reee.mp4
1. do they hear the scream?

2. are you planning more escape tools

3. AUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUBLAAAAAAA

They hear an incredibly loud scream. Not sure if I want to stick with this as an escape tool at all but they'll have at least something to help them.

oranges wrote:What's your obsession with things in voids?

I like eldritch horror. In this case, it's a lie, so it doesn't matter as much. It can easily be changed.

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Xhuis wrote:https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/116 ... g_reee.mp4
Like the idea but I don't think it'll work in practice. Shadowling would just get tazed and lazed or have a flare thrown on them, rendering the skill useless barring a sec officer retarded enough to try and arrest you.

It's mainly intended to drive people away from you so you have a window of time to escape. Anyone dumb enough to stand near you is blasted away and goes deaf. Still, I can see your concern, and I'll probably scrap it and reuse the sounds later.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:12 pm

Important question: Does using this ability stop you from moving? If yes, it's not going to be useful at all. If no, holy shit activating this and running into a crowd with thralls grabbing everyone knocked over and dragging them into maint like fucking bodysnatchers would be robust as hell.

Post by **Armhulen** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:38 pm #243012

I never thought about that, which makes this an escape tool for newbies and a robust as fuck kidnapping tool for the experienced. THAT. IS. HOW. YOU. CODE.

ShadowDimentio · Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:40 pm

V E R S A T I L I T Y

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 8:24 pm #243032

Once you commit, the only thing that stops it is if you go unconscious during the channel. It can absolutely be used offensively, and ability versatility is one of the things that I'm focusing on. For instance, the Veil Mind ability has a large AoE with essentially non-existent effects on normal humans (other than converting vulnerable ones), but stuns cyborgs for a brief time dependant on proximity, and Devour Will itself has a very short charge and so can be used to grab people at close range for an automatic stun.

InsaneHyena · Post by **InsaneHyena** » Wed Jan 11, 2017 9:36 pm #243047

> xhuis makes another conversion game mode
> xhuis writes more pages of lore that nobody cares for or likes.
> xhuis is still absolutely obsessed with the word umbra
It's like clockwork. No pun intended.

Wed Jan 11, 2017 10:38 pm

InsaneHyena wrote:> xhuis makes another conversion game mode
> xhuis writes more pages of lore that nobody cares for or likes.
> xhuis is still absolutely obsessed with the word umbra
It's like clockwork. No pun intended.

>gets killed by a shadowling
>blames the coder who only pushed the original pr
it's like cuckwork. no pun intended.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 12:02 am #243095

Might as well say it now before the bitching begins in earnest.

G I T G U D
I
T

G
U
D

Jacough · Post by **Jacough** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:16 am #243153

DemonFiren wrote:>drives the target insane
You mean "makes the target meta that it's shadowling and beeline for the nearest way to seek treatment/cockblock the sling".

I wasn't actually thinking super prolonged audio hallucinations that'd require a trip to medbay or some shit. I was thinking more subtle stuff that one experiences when around entities. Could be hearing muffled whispering nearby, a dying person gasping, maybe someone calling out someone's name, or in rare cases fake radio chatter suggesting that something horrible is going on.

Though alternatively you could give them more control over the hallucinations to let them try to spook the shit out of the crew. Example:
- entity hides by empty locker
- waits for someone to stop near it
- hits a button or types a message
- "x whispers 'h** o**r ***e" or "x gasps"
- dude opens the locker
- entity hits another button that triggers something like a deep ominous laugh or maybe summons a visual hallucination of some hulking indescribable roaring creature

Basically the idea I had was for the entities to be more of a way to let sacrificed thralls contribute a layer of creepiness to the round instead of having to sit in dead chat until the round ends. Also let's face it, scaring people would be fun. The sling could also have control over which abilities they can use as well so they don't dick them over by outing them early or some shit.

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 4:25 am #243167

make entitys be able to mimic voices so the entities can call for help then "STUPID DOG, YOU MAKE ME LOOK BAD OOOOGABOOGABOOGA!"

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:35 pm #243250

InsaneHyena wrote:> xhuis makes another conversion game mode
> xhuis writes more pages of lore that nobody cares for or likes.
> xhuis is still absolutely obsessed with the word umbra
It's like clockwork. No pun intended.

If you're going to whine and not say anything useful, just don't bother. If you hate the gamemode so much, then tell me how I can make it better. It's still very early on (enough that I might radically change how it works).

Jacough wrote:snip

If the umbrage has to kill anyone, I do want them to suffer a fate more engaging than what early changelings gave people. This would be a good start - restless spirits that passively influenced people around them with hallucinations and feelings of disquiet. They could eventually be cleansed, of course, but it might make for more interesting play. Then again, it could just be annoying.

Screemonster · Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:10 pm

Now I'm picturing some sort of not-a-revenant for people killed by the shadowling that just gets to ghost around and spread minor spooky shit.
Or just let ghosts in general do spoop things in the vicinity of the shadowling or within a certain radius of it using its powers or whatever.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:22 pm #243264

We'll call them... grief ghosts.

Post by **Armhulen** » Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:26 pm #243265

Xhuis wrote:We'll call them... grief ghosts.

delet this!!

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 14, 2017 5:15 pm #243957

Gonna slow down work on this until either datum antags are merged or the feature freeze is over. Don't want to burn myself out.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Tue Jan 24, 2017 9:59 pm #247385

Just a small update on this so that people don't think it's dead. I'm officially continuing work on this starting February 1.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:35 pm #248416

Surprise. I'm continuing early. Here's something juicy.
Turn your volume up, it's pretty quiet on my end. It's still an early iteration, but this will probably be what it'll generally look like in the final product.

Post by **Armhulen** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 6:37 pm #248418

onleavedontatme · Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:56 pm

The proliferation of conversion modes has had disastrous consequences for the game

-Less people want to play security/security is more stressed/security learns to play the game like a concentration camp simulator

-Shorter rounds/sidelining the rest of the content

-Closer and closer to team death match since both sides have private channels and huds to see their team mates

-Each conversion mode ends up worse because players get less chance to actually get good at each one the more of them that there are

All that being said

Out of rev, cult, and clockcult, which of these do you intend to replace, or do you think it is different enough and exciting enough that it will bring more positives to the game than the negatives listed above.

I know I'm going to come off like an asshole by throwing up this hurdle before your idea has really had a chance, but I've not found a single maintainer that has expressed interest in merging this yet, and we're just going to be bigger assholes later if we let you sink a lot of time and effort into something that gets rejected.

Sweets · Post by **Sweets** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:01 pm #248474

Kor, it would have to be clock cult for two reasons.

1. Too many shitters like rev as a stress relief valve gametype. Removing it would cause the most outrage of any gametype in the community ( not me personally, I hate rev and think it needs tweaks) with the exception of maybe Nuke Ops.

2. Blood cult is arguably the most balanced gametype we have and has almost NO detractors in the community compared to Cuck cult and Antifa Simulator.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:14 pm #248476

Kor wrote:The proliferation of conversion modes has had disastrous consequences for the game

-Less people want to play security/security is more stressed/security learns to play the game like a concentration camp simulator

-Shorter rounds/sidelining the rest of the content

-Closer and closer to team death match since both sides have private channels and huds to see their team mates

-Each conversion mode ends up worse because players get less chance to actually get good at each one the more of them that there are

All that being said

Out of rev, cult, and clockcult, which of these do you intend to replace, or do you think it is different enough and exciting enough that it will bring more positives to the game than the negatives listed above.

I know I'm going to come off like an asshole by throwing up this hurdle before your idea has really had a chance, but I've not found a single maintainer that has expressed interest in merging this yet, and we're just going to be bigger assholes later if we let you sink a lot of time and effort into something that gets rejected.

I'm hoping that it will be fun and different enough that it won't cause as many issues. I'll address your issues in order:

Conversions will be able to bypass loyalty implants (at some cost), so security aren't discouraged; veils will have tells that show who they are so random innocents aren't imprisoned
Not sure what you mean by sidelining, but I don't know how long the rounds will be
Umbrages are nonlethal; if they kill, they suck at life and are doing it wrong. HUD and linked chat is something I can't really avoid without making the gamemode unfun, although making it only work on the z-level you're speaking from is a start
What do you mean?

Whichever one I would replace is tough to say. Bloodcult and clockcult both have their places (although they could be merged into one gamemode...) and rev is good for mindless venting after a string of bad rounds. If I had a choice I would probably just make blood and clockcult into a single mode - we already have the interactions between them - and put it in the divide that forms there. If I had to cut one out? Tough choice, and not one I'm qualified to make on their own. I like all the gamemodes we have and I don't want to cut one out.

Don't worry about being an asshole. It's kind of a requirement for the job and I don't blame you at all for it. And if this ends up getting rejected or pushed back or something, w/e. No big deal. I've scrapped bigger projects that have never seen the light of day.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:50 am #248676

now that i've watched the transformation, it looks great. I think instead of purple it should be black, and for the first tick clothes should stay on. they fly off when the spikes reach out? I don't know, I really like the ending!

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:14 am #248733

Massive +1 on the purple/black color scheme. Most antags seem to have a distinct color palette (syndies get red, blood cult black, clock cult bronze, wizard blue), and that one will stand out.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:17 pm #248771

I'm aiming for violet/black, yeah. Red/black was nice but we already had it on the majority of our antags so I wanted to have something different.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 4:26 pm #248772

that's actually fair reasoning so i retract my statement

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:09 pm #248783

Turning both cults into a single game mode is a mistake. It'll just be gangs with magic.

ShadowDimentio · Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:49 pm

Do NOT combine the cults for the reason above. If Kor is hell-bent on removing something, remove clockcuck.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 5:53 pm #248792

ShadowDimentio wrote:Do NOT combine the cults for the reason above. If Kor is hell-bent on removing something, remove clockcuck.

sad, but true. rip clock

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:52 pm #248874

Seems like a whole lot of effort gone if it gets cut. I think it should be removed from rotation if the spot needs to be freed, but certainly not removed.

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:14 pm #248883

Why not remove devil and add this instead then

Post by **Armhulen** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:53 pm #248901

D&B wrote:Why not remove devil and add this instead then

devil would be the better choice since there is literally no way to be a devil right now but it's technically not conversion

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 10:56 pm #248903

Why do we have to remove a cult again?

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:31 pm #248914

Kor's belief is that too many conversion modes hurt the game. He's in a better position than I to say if it does or not, but apparently we need more non-conversion modes than conversion modes.

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sat Jan 28, 2017 11:56 pm #248923

Make "cult" a single gamemode for the purposes of roundtype selection, and give each cult a 50% chance of spawning. Problem solved.

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:02 am #248926

Luke Cox wrote:Make "cult" a single gamemode for the purposes of roundtype selection, and give each cult a 50% chance of spawning. Problem solved.

that's not a problem solved because that's still too many conversion mechanics that people have to learn, read kor's post again and then come back

Luke Cox · Post by **Luke Cox** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 12:51 am #248955

The two cults are similar enough to where I think it's fair to treat them as one gamemode thematically. As for mechanics, if you don't know how to play it, don't enable it in game options.

Xhuis · Post by **Xhuis** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 1:45 am #248977

I disagree on that. I think that this game shouldn't just be "wiki dive until you can play". Seeing people react to new, unannounced mechanics is something I love doing, and the period of discovery following one of my gamemodes is always the highlight of my time playing. Do you remember the first shadowling round? People were actually afraid of maintenance. They saw me - the shadowling - running from light and brought in flashlights until it went entirely dark and people scattered like blind bats.

I also think that the cults are complex enough that they're distinct from one another. Bloodcult is more simplistic, focusing on runes and brute-force sacrifice. Clockcult is much more refined and complex, focusing on using very situational tools to give you an inherent advantage and forming a stronghold that can withstand a direct assault, forcing security to be more creative than the head-on attacks that bloodcult is generally more vulnerable to.

MrEousTranger · Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:56 pm

Xhuis wrote:Kor's belief is that too many conversion modes hurt the game. He's in a better position than I to say if it does or not, but apparently we need more non-conversion modes than conversion modes.

See my really old super hero mode idea

D&B · Post by **D&B** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 6:59 pm #249165

Armhulen wrote:
D&B wrote:Why not remove devil and add this instead then
devil would be the better choice since there is literally no way to be a devil right now but it's technically not conversion

>Sign this paper to become sin touched
>You get advantages for becoming sin touched
>Devil becomes stronger the more sin touched there are
>There's a way to un-sintouch people via lawyer

Hmmmmm

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:04 pm #249168

D&B wrote:
Armhulen wrote:
D&B wrote:Why not remove devil and add this instead then
devil would be the better choice since there is literally no way to be a devil right now but it's technically not conversion
>Sign this paper to become sin touched
>You get advantages for becoming sin touched
>Devil becomes stronger the more sin touched there are
>There's a way to un-sintouch people via lawyer

Hmmmmm

you're confusing sin touching with signing the contract

DemonFiren · Post by **DemonFiren** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:04 pm #249169

By that logic ayylmao anal probing is also conversion.

Wyzack · Post by **Wyzack** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 7:11 pm #249175

Removing devil literally does not change a god damned thing. Devil never comes up, so removing it will not decrease the prevalence of conversion antags at all

Post by **Armhulen** » Sun Jan 29, 2017 8:07 pm #249239

I don't want any gamemodes to go REEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Do you want shadowlings back?