Gang improvement thread

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CPTANT
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Gang improvement thread

Post by CPTANT » #241153

Gang isn't dead! it's just out of rotation.

Post your ideas on how to improve gang and discuss what you think the weakpoints of the mode are.


Personally:

1. remove implant breakers. They let one gang spiral out of control way too fast and completely bypass the recruitment pen cooldown.

2. Make the dominator harder to hide. Let it require free space in a 3x3 area surrounding it.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by onleavedontatme » #241157

Cargo being busted and basically having unlimited money now means security can afford to pre-emptively implant the whole crew.

There needs to be one of the following

-Rules against implanting people who have not commit any crimes yet

-Heavily restrict access to implants

-Some sort of other downside to mass implanting/some sort of reason for crew to have a reason to fight back against the implants

Or best of all:

Security and the armory flat out dont spawn in gang, and it's antag vs antag vs antag
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Oldman Robustin » #241172

If you don't spawn sec then you're going to have to overhaul the mode because as soon as people realize it's Gang War people will be lining up for their antag status and who could blame them.

You could make it more RP driven this way, but I have a feeling it would just snowball as people rush to join the Gang in whatever department has the most toys.

Sec's involvement is mostly problematic in the sense that they drastically outgun any antag unless they just sit on their asses until 30+ minutes in. Otherwise its not hard to balance implant acquisition prices, its mostly the process that leads to implanting that puts gangs at a huge disadvantage.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by D&B » #241176

Make CentComm restrict cargo purchases as gangs tag more than 20% of the station (combined.)

Put it under a pretense of "protecting our economic interests" or so and nothing is buyable in cargo OR shuttle trips take more than 1 minute.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Jembo » #241177

It's simple make implants cause like 20 brute damage, that way the AI can get involved and get completely shit on for trying to stop sec.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by BeeSting12 » #241185

Jembo wrote:It's simple make implants cause like 20 brute damage, that way the AI can get involved and get completely shit on for trying to stop sec.
no. sec gets shit on enough in conversion based rounds already by silicons and this will make noone accept implants willingly
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Wyzack » #241186

What if Sec's objective in Gang is just to make sure the captain escapes alive, with no mention of the gangs? Remove the SEC MANAGED TO STOP THE GANG text and make it so sec and one of the gangs can both greentext. It is mostly a change in semantics but it might help a bit
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by ShadowDimentio » #241187

Remove it from the code.

Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected. Do you have department access? If yes, you win. If no, you lose. Try as you might to pen people in the halls, they'll always either be ganged already because their head was a lieutenant, or they'll be moving too fast to pen effectively, running the constant risk of ~literally anyone~ seeing your pen and getting you set to arrest for being a gangboss, whereupon either sec or another gang finds and kills you.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Luke Cox » #241188

Change gang to mafia. No more tagging, primary means of income is setting up drug labs in maint and selling illicit substances via an uplink. The mafia spawns with one godfather and three lieutenants. They can recruit up to 5 associates, who have the option of ratting them out to sec (mafia has to choose carefully and hunt down rats).
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Oldman Robustin » #241409

ShadowDimentio wrote:Remove it from the code.

Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected. Do you have department access? If yes, you win. If no, you lose. Try as you might to pen people in the halls, they'll always either be ganged already because their head was a lieutenant, or they'll be moving too fast to pen effectively, running the constant risk of ~literally anyone~ seeing your pen and getting you set to arrest for being a gangboss, whereupon either sec or another gang finds and kills you.
Don't oversimplify the issue. Yes department gang leads have an intrinsic advantage over assistant leads or service leads (who are probably the most screwed since they can't access other service areas and dont have full maint access), but an enterprising gang lead can easily convert scientists/engineers/doctors as they roam the station, promote them, and send them back to the dept. to convert them. Or you can just spend a little bit of time learning the door wires or getting a promotion from the HOP.

I think Gangs are determined more by the competence of the starting leader than the leader's job. I'd put my money on a robust assistant over an incompetent RD any day of the week.

A simple improvement would probably be a more robust antag-selection code that immediately designates all gang leaders at roundstart. I've come to the conclusion that a leader being able to select the Lieutenants just tends to create more snowballing (good leaders will have metaknowledge on who to make LT's while newbies will just promote whoever they see, if anyone at all) and is just an obnoxious burden for the leader to undertake. Randomly selected leaders improves the chances that the gangs are relatively balanced as opposed to the fate of each gang being tied to the competence of a single individual, the laws of statistics aren't up for debate on this.

I think that suggestion alone would be a great start to making Gang War good enough for rotation.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by CPTANT » #241412

I think gang would be in a better place with both implant breakers and loyalty implants removed from the mode.

I think securities objective should still be to evacuate the station.

Having pre-selected lieutenants also sounds like a good change, it happens surprisingly often that a gang leader does not recruit them at all. And it also spreads the departmental access more.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by onleavedontatme » #241413

Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.

We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by ShadowDimentio » #241415

In the time it takes to scavenge hacking tools or getting a promotion from the HoP the lucky dick who spawned in a department will have converted everyone already. Then when you go to convert them, there's an extraordinarily high chance you're immidiately caught because conversion attempts are very obvious if you're expecting them, and are beset by a rival gang that greatly outnumbers you.

I've experienced like 4 rounds as ganghead mime and every one of them I lost because it was impossible for me to convert people. Anyone in the hall was either already taken or moved too much.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by ShadowDimentio » #241418

Kor wrote:

Code: Select all

Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.

We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
In other modes getting a good job can be a huge boon but Gang made this just infinitely worse because it's a territory war. A moderately competent sci ganghead VS a very competent mime head, the game always goes to the sci guy.
Spoiler:
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-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
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"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
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"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
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">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by CPTANT » #241430

ShadowDimentio wrote:
Kor wrote:

Code: Select all

Gang suffers from the intrinsic shortfall of the round being decided the moment jobs are selected.
This is true of the entire game and every mode and why every balance discussion is a huge joke.

We have no matchmaking, and we can never have matchmaking because of our community size, so "balance" will always come down to whether [12 hour a day robust player of the month] got assigned to HoS or antag.
In other modes getting a good job can be a huge boon but Gang made this just infinitely worse because it's a territory war. A moderately competent sci ganghead VS a very competent mime head, the game always goes to the sci guy.
Having 3 roundstart gang leaders per gang makes your already boring argument even less relevant.
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Screemonster » #242026

A team-vs-team mode that isn't focused on conversion might be interesting. It'd cut out the snowballing (there is no snowballing if there's no conversion) and likewise sec wouldn't be forced to go turbohitler on anyone without an implant to counter it.

Spawn a couple of teams, no recruitment, team objectives that may or may not overlap or conflict with the other team (but probably will), that sort of thing.

What I'm having trouble coming up with is something to discourage dem valids from just clamping down to wipe out the gangs as soon as the existence of gangs is revealed. Part of me wants to say "if a gang is wiped out entirely and no members escape alive, hand victory to the other gang" but that'll probably encourage murderboners.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by John_Oxford » #242030

Maybe instead of penning people make it where each gang (carp/diablo/ect) will have different initations that they have to make people do.

Sleeping Carp requires you to sleep two tiles next to a space tile while there are two sleeping carp members next to you.

Diablo requires you to destroy three walls windows and tiles in the chapel while two other diablo members are in the chapel.

Make it so the pen given to the gang boss is a one use pen that auto promotes to lt and instantly puts a spraycan and weapon in their hand (relevant to the gang they are playing)

---

The fun part of gangs is the stress of playing security during it. Bring back old loyalty implants, no one likes shit bags wasting your implant by going and walking back over to their gang boss and getting implanted again.

Mass Implanting is something gang is at fault for, i'm a blatant powergaming metagaming hos and even i don't mass implant before there's a reason to. The only reason a HoS would is because of the fact that gang's were to stupid not to stay hidden during the early game conversion process, and as such, deserved to be shit on for their incompetence.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by CPTANT » #264728

A problem in gang is that sec has the incentive to just implant the entire crew as soon as they see grafiti.

What if the grafiti wasn't as plainly visible as it is now?

Perhaps make it only visible to gang members, or introduce something less meta prone?
Timberpoes wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 3:21 pm The rules exist to create the biggest possible chance of a cool shift of SS13. They don't exist to allow admins to create the most boring interpretation of SS13.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by kevinz000 » #264732

I ran a gang event where I mass deleted all implants and disabled implant crates
Went well till Luke Cox had the AI plasma everything and all of the gangs including his own
Now everyone hates gang even more.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by ShadowDimentio » #264733

Gang is shit and the game is better without it.
Spoiler:
"Clowns are different you can't trust those shifty fucks you never know what they're doing or if they're willing to eat a dayban for some cheap yuks."
-Not-Dorsidarf

"The amount of people is the amount of times the sound is played... on top of itself. And with sybil populations on the shuttle..."
-Remie Richards

"I just spent all fucking day playing fallen london and sunless sea and obsessing over how creepy the fucking dawn machine is and only just clocked now that your avatar is the fucking dawn machine. Nobody vote for this disgusting new sequence blasphemer he wants to kill the gods"
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"You're too late, you will have to fetch them from the top of my tower, built by zombies, slaves, zombie slaves and garitho's will to live!"
-Armhulen

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-DarkFNC

"Penguins are the second race to realise 2D>3D"
-Anonmare

"Paul Blart mall cops if they all had ambitions of joining the Waffen-SS"
-Anonmare

"These logs could kill a dragon much less a man"
-Armhulenn

">7 8 6
WHAT MADNESS IS THIS? POETIC ANARCHY!"
-Wyzack

"We didn't kick one goofball out only to have another one come in like a fucking revolving door"
-Kraseo

"There's a difference between fucking faggots and being a fucking faggot."
-Anonmare

"You guys splitting the 20 bucks cost to hire your ex again?"
-lntigracy

"Wew. Congrats. It's been actual years since anyone tried to make fun of me for being divorced. You caught me, I'm tilted. Here is your trophy."
-Timbrewolf

"I prefer my coffees to run dry too *snorts a line of maxwell house*"
-Super Aggro Crag

"You don't have an evil bone in your body, unless togopal comes for a sleepover"
-Bluespace

">Paying over a $1000 for a lump of silicon and plastic
Lol"
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"Then why did you get that boob job?"
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by Anonmare » #264753

Gang's issue is the conversion. Remove conversion from the context and you'll, generally, solve sec going turbohitler on the entire crew. Plus it stops one one gang basically all-but-winning once they've converted security, I hope anyway.

Personally I'd prefer a mafia mode with a hierarchy where you have rank and file soldiers --> Caporegimes --> Godfather. Mafia members can't be deconverted but they can be forced to snitch on the person they immediately report to if you perform "Enhanced Interrogation" on them which has very specific sets that may vary from gang to gang ( But how they snitch will remain the same. Soldiers will snitch on their capo, capos snitch on the Godfather and the Godfather will never break).

I made a suggestion similar to mafia mode in the past and it worked generally a little like this:
Spoiler:
The mafias should consist of around about a 1/3 of the crew, but, to prevent them from steamrolling, add in imperfect teamHUDs to prevent them from acting on perfect information. Soldiers only recognise their Godfather, their capo and the soldiers their superior capo is responsible for. Capos recognise other capos, their own underlings and their Godfather. Godfathers recognise everyone in their gang and the other rival Godfathers, but not their underlings.

The Godfather may step down and hand the title over to one of his capos or they can vote him out to have one of their own instated if he is incompetent whereupon the GF becomes a Capo. If the GF dies, one of the still living Capos will assume the mantle of GF and have all the rights and responsibilities that come with it. Only Capos and GFs get gang tools but only the GF's own gang tool will generate points, when a Capo tries to buy something - it sends a request to the GF's tool which he can approve or disapprove (with spam protection in place of course) and the Gf can assign points to Capos to spend without having to ask him for permission.

Both the GF and Capo tools have a message function that can either send a message to a specific capo or all capos and the GF, the GF's tool can send a message to everyone in the gang and has BIG TEXT. Capo tools can send a message to their underlings but not another capo's underlings and underlings can not reply back due to not possessing a tool and are unable to use one.
Soldiers start off with a weak signature melee weapon of their gang but are otherwise similar to revs in that they have no special powers or abilities.
Capos begin with a high-damage, pocket melee weapon and their tool.
GFs start with their tool, melee weapon and a signature handgun of their gang (Can be a revolver, Deagle or Pulse pistol depending on the gang), as well as a storage implant - GFs should be something that need to be rooted out, one way or another.

Rival gangs may or may not have conflicting objectives and may work together, betray one another and attack each other at their own discretion.
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Re: Gang improvement thread

Post by PKPenguin321 » #264836

what ruins gang for me is this:
there are a few things that are pretty much absolutely required to successfully play as a gangster, those being:
- living gangheads
- converts

but get this, conversion's a trap! there's basically a 1/5 chance that somebody you try to pen is actually an enemy gangster, and now that they know you're also a gangster, you're now effectively dead.
this means that converting people kills you! but wait, you can't die, living gangheads are required to play!
but you also can't not convert, as converts are required to play, too.
it's a total catch 22. can't convert without being alive, can't be alive if you convert. unless you're stupidly lucky and happen by sheer chance to ever pen anybody who's an enemy gangster.

how to fix this? try any of these:
- give some tell for gangheads that the person they're about to attempt to convert is already a gangster
- don't display the "tiny prick" message for gangpens
- allow non-gangheads to convert (maybe with a tool that's bought by gangheads and is weaker than the regular conversion pen. maybe longer cooldown + it's not disguised as a pen).
- make individual converts more valuable so you don't need as many (and therefore reduce the chances of trying to convert somebody who's already a gangster). <- this one is hard because it's vague so i don't recommend it, but i think if somebody found an interesting way to do it it'd be good
i play Lauser McMauligan. clown name is Cold-Ass Honkey
i have three other top secret characters as well.
tell the best admin how good he is
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