Delta has forced the need for sec overhaul

[Oldman Robustin]

So it feels like the server is split pretty evenly between 3 maps now. One overlooked issue that I've raised before is that the average sec officer is not a veteran and that map rotation leads to a security force that is perpetually lost and confused because the average player does not have the time or motivation to learn 3 different map layouts. We've had other meme maps but they were played infrequently.

Delta has only exacerbated the problem because of how complex and deep the maintenance paths are. Security depends not only on each other, but on loyal and helpful crew, to survive the round and maintain order. My experience has been that security goes through a "spiral of death" when a cry for help on radio no longer guarantees assistance. Often "screaming for help on radio" is my first line of defense as a sec player since antags typically get the first shot, whether that shot is a wet tile next to a locker, or an ebow bolt from the darkness, I rely on the radio as a deterrent and defense mechanism against antags. But when "H-H-HELP MAINT BAR!!!" produces only confusion and apathy instead of a decisive response, I lose my best defense as a security officer.

This produces a vicious cycle where veteran players avoid security like the plague because when security is disorganized and incompetent - it's an utterly miserable experience. The biggest disadvantage to playing sec in these situations is that you're wearing a giant sign on your back saying "MURDER ME! I have lots of weapons, access, bowman, etc..." whereas if your an engi with a flamethrower, genetics powerhouse, cargo nerd with a sawed off shottie, scientist with RND weapons/mech, xenobioligist with a slime legion, assistant with a spray bottle, etc. you can hunt your valids without being a walking target for every antag on the station.

I have yet to have a positive sec experience on Delta simply because a stun = done, every time. Just a couple years ago the situation was Box 24/7 with simple maint so if you had a chance to yell "HELP" for any location, you'd have 4-5 people sweeping that spot within 60 seconds. Ebows were permastuns back then too, but they were pretty difficult to use because having an officer yell their location after you ebow them meant you'd be getting swarmed soon and wouldn't have enough time to both kill the officer AND escape. I'm not saying that was the ideal balance, but stations like Delta make is so that unless you get ebow'd in a primary hall, there's a good chance nobody is going to save you before you die, get stuffed into Maint Room #873, Locker #9548 and your attacker vanishes into the labyrinth. Not even suit sensors will be helpful given the vagueness of maint descriptors.

I think sec is due for some love, here is what I propose:

1) Distress signals. Can be used via a button, even while stunned, will go off automatically if the officer goes below a certain health level - that health level can be controlled from warden's office. The distress signal is tied to the sec bowman. Upon activation, the signal will last for ____ seconds. The number of seconds will be tweaked for balance since a low number would be all but useless while a high number would make attacking security feel too hopeless. I'd propose something around 20 seconds since that would give officers time to react, respond, and get a decent idea of where the attack is taking place without being a guaranteed giveaway. Upon activation, every other bowman user would get an audio notification and a pinpointer-type button that would show direction and distance to the distress signal. The signal would also inform the other bowman users of the identity and cause for the activation (Manual, Automatic: 20 health, etc.). This would address multiple issues with security, the most important being newbie sec players being utterly hopeless at responding to crimes.

The details aren't as important, the signal should be disabled by EMP, it should have a significant cooldown, it should also provide a loud, local audio signal to potentially tip off nearby crew, but also to warn the attacker that their victim is going to be hot until the signal expires. Further balance may require that the signal only be triggered by health so that antags have a more reliable counter.

2) Suit sensors to full, by default. This shouldn't be controversial. There's no reason to punish good and bad sec players alike by a fairly confusing mechanic of RNG suit sensors. For good players like me I get punished when a bad sec player disappears and 5 minutes later I'm being tased and murdered with the Officer-we-didnt-even-know-had-died's equipment. The signal would mitigate the need for this, somewhat, but sensors to full is still important for potential AI/Medbay locating, cloning dead officers, etc.

3) Streamlined imprisonment process. Another no-brainer. Right now security can murder you on the spot with very little hassle or teleport you to the Gulag with a brutal point requirement just by shoving you in a tube and clicking a couple buttons. What do the most reasonable and merciful punishment method entail? Manually stripping your goddamn target, manually shoving all that shit in a locker, maintaining control of the prisoner at all times, setting their sentence, updating their record, ensuring they get let out after their sentence or else they start grabbing all the other shit that inevitably ends up on the brig floor or just grabbing their tools and hacking their way out. It's just a massive headache that provides almost zero incentive for security to act reasonably.

I'm only going to repeat this once, it should be common goddamn sense that porting someone to the Gulag should not be the safest and easiest non-lethal way of securing prisoners. Security needs its "checkpoint" room replaced with a processing room that allows the officer to drag the prisoner into a pod, designate an empty cell and sentence length, then plop the person inside with nothing but their prison jumpsuit while leaving behind a locker of that person's belongings for inspection (the locker will teleport to the prison when their sentence has expired). Ideally the system would automate the prisoner's departure from the brig, either by teleportation (prisoner presses a button when they are ready to leave) or a new door system that doesn't just drop the prisoner back into a secure area (brig) where they can interfere with other arrests/steal shit/etc.

4) Security should be rewarded for acting like a civilian security team and punished for acting like a deathsquad. One of the biggest issues with attracting sec players is that every other dept. gets more power and more interesting as the round goes on, whereas security tends to start in its best condition and inevitably deteriorate as the round goes on. While other departments gain powerful chemicals, upgraded machinery, genetic powers, powerful guns, mechs, bombs, crates upon crates of valuable equipment and weapons, mining shit, golem legions, and uh.... autism forts? The brig starts in peak condition and from there supplies dwindle and conditions inevitably degrade and there isn't a natural mechanic for security to counteract this trend. Security is utterly dependent on the other departments for any amount of assistance and that assistance is entirely optional and hinges on the personality of people in those depts. While you occasionally get a good samaritan who will invite security to get Xray vision, or delivery sexy RND devices to the brig, or (hah) Cargo doing its job and replenishing and upgrading security's stock. On this server self-interest usually prevails and walking to the brig with gifts is more likely to get you arrested for contraband or trespassing than rewarded anyway.

The answer is that security gets a "budget" of points for rewards when it takes the high road. This budget would allow security to replenish its supplies, acquire alternative equipment, fortifications, and high amounts would allow for powerful gear. Sec mech? Adrenal Kit? Power armor? Mobile turrets? The details aren't important, it wouldn't be hard to tweak the rewards to make sure they are within reason and not game-breaking, exploitable, or overly easy to obtain.

This mechanic will also require the addition of another, a Centcom prison ship. It should share the dock with the gulag ship (which would be autosent to Gulag and kept their while the Prison Ship is in use). The prison ship can only be called by identifying specific prisoners that are ready for transfer. These prisoners can be identified manually or automatically if the prisoner has a tracking implant (for the edge case of changelings for the ballsy sec who want to try and contain a ling). The prison ship cannot be called unless a specific individual is identified. Once the ship is called, then additional names may be added to the list up until it docks.

The hardest part of balancing the ship is deciding the transit time. Too long and it will simply go unused or unutilized for most rounds. Too short and its basically another gulag/execution method that quickly takes people out of the round. It needs to be long enough to give the prisoner a chance to escape/summon help and require security to maintain vigilance. This leads to the budget discussion, where significant coding must be done, but the basic idea is that there would be rewards for:

- Lack of harm by security. Security-on-crew harm under a certain threshold for 5 minute intervals would give security a bonus. Obviously sec can arrange for prisoners to have "accidents", but that requires more effort and more risk than just batoning someone on the spot.

- Transferring prisoners to the ship. There doesn't even have to be an antag check, if someone deserves perma then they are valid for the ship, if they are being removed from the round for flimsy raisins they can always ahelp - which is a lot easier to correct than killing someone for flimsy raisins. The prisoner must be on the ship's manifest and they must be alive upon departure. There may be bonuses for removing certain high-risk antags in this manner. There is also a penalty for listing prisoners that don't get boarded - simply as a way to prevent exploiting the call timer by listing a random assistant for transfer with no intention of arresting them.

- Deconverting cultists. This is already a risky strat given both cults have the ability to teleport people, there should be a modest bonus for doing this instead of crushing skulls.

- Placing contraband in a designated locker on the prison shuttle

- The HOS/Warden can use their newscaster to issue a survey _____ minutes into the round where heads of each dept. can rate sec's performance. Good reviews = bonus, bad reviews = penalty.

- The lawyer gets a special console to report violations of space law by security. Excessive punishments, summary executions, mutilation of prisoners, lack of due process. These reports would go to "Centcom" where admins can initiate an RP event where a Centcom inspector/internal affairs shows up... a lack of complaints for a ______ minute period (only available when the crew has lawyers) would give sec a bonus. Obviously admins shouldn't send the inspector during rev rounds.

[Wyzack]

Not going to lie i could not bring myself to read the whole thing but seeing you put forward a solution other than REMOVE MAPS I DONT LIKE SUICIDE HOPLINE REEEE is quite nice

[Saegrimr]

Not going to lie i could not bring myself to read the whole thing

Yeah could we get the content without the exposition, i'm sure you make a fair point but holy shit man.

[TribeOfBeavers]

TLDR:

The basic idea of it is that if you get killed in maint on Delta nobody is going to find you, even if you shout over the radio. He says this is particularily problematic for sec officers, as they're prime targets for traitors trying to get gear and only really have their radio to help if someone gets the drop on them and as a result less people are playing security.

He then proposes a few potential buffs and changes for security to make it less frustrating to play, or at least make your corpse easier to find. These include:
A distress beacon to tell every other sec officer where an injured officer is.
Auto maxed suit sensors.
A gulag teleporter, but for the cells in the brig
A cargo like point system sec can use to replenish their supplies as the round goes on where you gain points by not being shitcurity.

[captain sawrge]

TLDR:

The basic idea of it is that if you get killed in maint on Delta nobody is going to find you, even if you shout over the radio. He says this is particularily problematic for sec officers, as they're prime targets for traitors trying to get gear and only really have their radio to help if someone gets the drop on them and as a result less people are playing security.

He then proposes a few potential buffs and changes for security to make it less frustrating to play, or at least make your corpse easier to find. These include:
A distress beacon to tell every other sec officer where an injured officer is.
Auto maxed suit sensors.
A gulag teleporter, but for the cells in the brig
A cargo like point system sec can use to replenish their supplies as the round goes on where you gain points by not being shitcurity.

lol

[Saegrimr]

A cargo like point system sec can use to replenish their supplies as the round goes on where you gain points by not being shitcurity.

I mean theory this is the best possible idea, but how the hell do you even begin measure shitcurity code-wise. Deduct number of points each time a baton is on with harm intent?

[Kel]

Realistically it can't happen, if it's based on arrests, sec will just arrest themselves to farm points. If you couldnt get points for arresting sec (which just spawns a consistency issue), i'm sure sec would go above and beyond the call of duty of farming points by making it as hellish as possible for the first person they arrest.

To alleviate sec being such easy targets, I think sec equipment should be a hellish process to strip. Think about it, tactical gear has 1 million and a half straps and clips over everything to make sure everything is secured. It should be alot more difficult to tear that tactical belt off with all its clips and safeties compared to a toolbelt you could probably just press a button and release the clasp. This probably won't really dissuade people from casually killing sec and taking the taser, but a full strip down would take longer, thus leaving their jumpsuit on longer, thus showing their location on suit sensors for longer, thus giving sec more time to pinpoint their location.

[TribeOfBeavers]

A cargo like point system sec can use to replenish their supplies as the round goes on where you gain points by not being shitcurity.

I mean theory this is the best possible idea, but how the hell do you even begin measure shitcurity code-wise. Deduct number of points each time a baton is on with harm intent?

There are roughly 730 words in his post on how it could work.

Some of the ideas include: checking for sec harming the crew within a certain period of time, actually putting contraband in the contraband locker, deconverting cultists instead of killing them, surveying the crew, putting prisoners on a super-perma shuttle thing instead of killing them, and letting the lawyer be in charge of reporting violations.

[onleavedontatme]

>replicating cargo inside another department rather than getting things from cargo

I wonder if in five years every department will finally just be it's own self contained station so nobody has to rely on each other anymore

[Kel]

>replicating cargo inside another department rather than getting things from cargo

I wonder if in five years every department will finally just be it's own self contained station so nobody has to rely on each other anymore

what's the point of requiring everyone to rely on each other when they simply don't anyway and just do without their resources

[TribeOfBeavers]

>replicating cargo inside another department rather than getting things from cargo

I wonder if in five years every department will finally just be it's own self contained station so nobody has to rely on each other anymore

what's the point of requiring everyone to rely on each other when they simply don't anyway and just do without their resources

To reward people who make the round slightly more interesting by interacting with other departments, I assume.

[captain sawrge]

paranoia is dead

[BeeSting12]

Of all of these, I think I support the automatic brigging the most. I don't even bother brigging people anymore. It's either bad enough for an execution, bad but not THAT bad so gulag, or not even worth the two minutes you put into brigging. I guess the other thing about distress signals is okay too, but they should be one-time use and additionals from RnD, cargo, and maybe a few in the armory.

[Oldman Robustin]

Just because it uses a credit-style system doesn't mean its going to be another cargo. The items available to be purchased would specifically for security and very little in terms of general purpose stuff. Brig is still going to need engineering for breaches and hacking, medbay for cloning/healing/chems, science for... science shit.

I've waited the better part of a decade to see if Cargo could synergize with security but the inevitable reality is that outside of a revolution, it is too burdensome for either side. Cargo has no innate reason to help security when they can just buy even better guns for themselves, Security has no access to cargo shit and usually if things are bad enough that sec needs shit from cargo, sec is too busy to go and commandeer cargo anyways. Every department grows stronger over the round, with engineering being the other outlier. That's generally a good thing, it invests people in their job and gives the passage of time meaning on the station - but its also part of the reason security is so unattractive.

During slow rounds your job sucks because you have no purpose, during crazy rounds it sucks because youre probably going to spend most of the round dead and its impossible to rely on your other officers on maps like Delta. This mechanic would not only make playing sec more tolerable in otherwise awful rounds, but it would also encourage sec to not just murder every antag where they stand the moment an emag/slab/tome falls out of their pockets.

[D&B]

Speaking of Delta, is it still being maintained?

[PKPenguin321]

TLDR:

The basic idea of it is that if you get killed in maint on Delta nobody is going to find you, even if you shout over the radio. He says this is particularily problematic for sec officers, as they're prime targets for traitors trying to get gear and only really have their radio to help if someone gets the drop on them and as a result less people are playing security.

He then proposes a few potential buffs and changes for security to make it less frustrating to play, or at least make your corpse easier to find. These include:
A distress beacon to tell every other sec officer where an injured officer is.
Auto maxed suit sensors.
A gulag teleporter, but for the cells in the brig
A cargo like point system sec can use to replenish their supplies as the round goes on where you gain points by not being shitcurity.

tl;dr of the tl;dr
>i ded
>pls buff my role

>inb4 this gets deleted for "effortless post" but you know that it is true, oranges. you KNOW THAT I'M RIGHT DEEP DOWN IN YOUR CITRUS HEART

[Anonmare]

I'd have no problems with sec offs starting with their jumpsuit sensors maxed. Not a lot of people pay attention to those anyway.

A distress beacon I'm unsure on. Maybe make it somewhat akin to the pinpointer. Perhaps it could function by giving officers a small hand-held thing he can activate which sends an alert on the sec radio and a pinpointer-like device that will point to the nearest distress signal.
Savvy traitors can either kill the sec before he turns it on, EMP it if he's lazy or spend several tense seconds rooting through the officer's belongings trying to find a way to turn it off - or leave it where it is and drag the body off to another direction.
Cell teleporter I'm also iffy on.
Cargo style points I don't see how you would work into the game. A point for every minute no officer uses his baton on the harm intent?

[Oldman Robustin]

I play dudes that kill security more often than I play security. I just recognize when I do play security (about once a day) that it's such a godawful experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemies.

Delta seems like a major culprit though. I have yet to have a decent sec round there and out of all the times I've yelled for sec in specific areas of maint, sec has a 0% success rate of actually showing up.

@Anon

I explained how the points would work, its not THAT hard to manage. I think the big part is just successfully transferring prisoners/contraband away instead of just murdering the antags and using their gear as swag. If sec can run an orderly show like that for an entire round, they deserve the best rewards this game can give in my book.

I don't think manually activated distress signals would be effective at all since when you're security you're generally in control of a situation until you slip/get stunned unexpectedly and you will never get up again. The prompt for my post was that stuff like eswords and ebows, despite maintaining much of the same lethality they had originally (eswords would knock you out instead of dismembermeme'ing you), have become so powerful because what used to be the ultimate defense against their use (HELP ESWORD ENGIMAINT) meant that anyone using them as an initiation weapon was practically on a suicide mission since you'd be subsequently swarmed by officers and assistants.

That metagame had its own problems and maint needed to be more complex, but the side-effect is that yelling out your location when you're being murdered is not effective at actually getting someone to intervene anymore. The signal would have to work automatically or be available while stunned.

[ShadowDimentio]

We've had this conversation so many times I've made a handy diagram for sec arguments and their cyclical nature.

Spoiler:

[PKPenguin321]

We've had this conversation so many times I've made a handy diagram for sec arguments and their cyclical nature.

Spoiler:

you should draw more this is kickass

[ShadowDimentio]

>Implying I don't

I do I just don't show it to you faggots because I'm too good for you lot slightly insecure.

Image included for reference.

Spoiler:

[danno]

cool drawings

[Luke Cox]

Oldman made a constructive and well-thought out suggestion what the fuck is happening

[bandit]

If only we had a job entirely based on scouring the station and its underbelly for crimes.

translation: remove sec maint access, remove detectivecurity, make the detective useful again at tasks like, I don't know, investigating the death of that officer no one found

[Arianya]

I'll keep suggesting it till I'm blue in the face:

Give the Warden the functional equivelant of Cargo Techs to delegate to with "Brig Officers" whose job it is to manage the brig, the cells and inmates, so that Sec Officers can actually patrol and the Warden doesn't get a fucking hernia from people being brigged with no record update or explanation of what they're in for.

[oranges]

That's not a bad idea, but how do we make people play it when sec is already empty and also how do we stop them acting like normal security officers with a slightly different title?

[Arianya]

That's not a bad idea, but how do we make people play it when sec is already empty and also how do we stop them acting like normal security officers with a slightly different title?

You effectively need some form of project or long term goal within sec itself. I'm still spitballing ideas for this, but possibly perma could be only partially built at roundstart, with part of the Brig Officer/Warden duties being to build it up (which also allows some customization). It's not an ideal situation but its still something I'm mulling over.

In a pinch you could make the Brig Officers subject to the same pseudo-rule as the Warden, where they're expected to do their job and not go gallivanting off unless they're literally the last line of defence, but admittedly this isn't a good solution in the long run.

The answer may be to mess with their ID accesses, since that way the HoS can still deputize them into full Security Officers but by default they don't have the kind of access you'd need to be Sec Officer.

It proved unpopular last time I suggested it but it'd also help if you took away Brig Cell access from normal Sec Officers, sot hey have to go through the Brig Officers/Warden/HoS.

[Dr_bee]

If anything I like the idea of turning in contraband antag items for bonuses. They would have to be good bonuses however, as you are basically trading RnD levels for them, as well as removing an antag incentive to rob the brig. though there already is a large incentive to rob the brig anyway. Sec officers should have more concequences for killing, to diminish their vulnerability somewhat. It is more interesting as an antag to weigh killing an officer, blowing my cover and risking discovery due to an alarm than it is just to off them because doing otherwise has very few downsides.

[Gun Hog]

The silicon haters castrated the third party moderator function of the AI and borgs, which is why you now see more complaints about Sec killing people. There is no longer anything able to act as a check and balance to their power. A silicon that tries to stop Sec harm is a dead silicon. DeathSec is exactly what you deserve!

Rant aside, we already have a tracking system in place for officers. Tracking implants. We could potentially integrate their function into the mindshield. The Warden will then be able to keep tabs on the officers, HoS, and Captain as well as anyone else who is implanted. Combine that with always-on suit sensors for a robust tab-keeping system that serves its purpose without it being as useful as helmet cameras were.

This will further strengthen the role the Warden plays in protecting the officers. He is the one with the remote to the tracking remote for the implants, and his post has a crew monitoring console. Having a good Warden player will be important to having a strong and responsive Security team who can coordinate the officers. Although, as I type this, I realize that this should be more of a job for the HoS. It goes to the Warden instead, as the HoS does not stay in the brig as the Warden does. The watchful eye role needs someone that rarely leaves the brig.

[Oldman Robustin]

@Gunhog

The AI's ability to contain and control harmful security is virtually unchanged for years. This biggest change is the door remote that instantly neuters an asimov AI's ability to contain harmful heads of staff. For borgs the chief change was removing the secborg, which could instantly shut down the brig with a few clicks of the baton and taser, but that change was mostly to combat the dominance of validhunter borgs.

As for tracking implants, they fall under my belief that just because a solution to a problem exists in our code, doesn't make it THE solution. Every round officers could march to genetics, back up their DNA, while the warden grabs cloning boards and parts and sets up a 2nd sec-only cloner on the AI sattelite using DNA disk'd from the first cloner, then security has chemistry provide superheal+antistun mixes for chemical implants that are given to every officer, along with tracking implants, meanwhile the Captain uploads a law declaring maintenance to be harmful and must be bolted at all times and that anyone harmed by security is not human... you get the idea.

Any solution to the security problem can't just be "well we're going to make the Warden work harder, because wardens are already renowned for the ability to do their job effectively" (that's sarcasm). I can't even remember the last time a warden set someone to arrest when asked.

[onleavedontatme]

Any solution to the security problem can't just be "well we're going to make the Warden work harder, because wardens are already renowned for the ability to do their job effectively" (that's sarcasm). I can't even remember the last time a warden set someone to arrest when asked.

I guess I was incorrect about every department being its own station being the end game, the true solution to all cooperation problems is to just give every crewmember enough tools to make the station function on their own rather than risk relying on someone else.

[Oldman Robustin]

@Arianye @Oranges

Other ideas are welcome in this thread but these just strike me as delusional. Sec is already a shit job and your proposal is to open even more sec positions that would have all the stress and bullshit of security with none of the entertainment?

Your idea for making that job fulfilling is by asking them to... build perma?!?! Perma is barely touched anymore, a majority of rounds never see a single person sent there, and even if it was useful its still incredibly shitty for someone to have building it as their fucking chief responsibility. All you're doing is taking the security population spiral of death (the less competent players you have in security, the less likely it is that competent players are going to sign up) and making it even steeper and faster. Normal officers can't manage cells? Brig officers can't patrol? Well now you've taken the shitty job of sec officer and split it into two even shittier and less attractive positions that will sit empty. Your suggestion might have a sliver of sense if the issue was "Guys security roles are filled up every round and it's just waaaayyy too popular!", since delegating responsibilities makes more sense when you've got a well staffed dept. that's struggling to stay organized... but for security? Fuck no.

It's especially silly since you're scrounging for "long term goals" for security when I've already provided a tried-and-true solution in my post.


If some of the mechanics are too hard to code, then just the distress signals and prison ship (+rewards for prisoners and contraband) would be a great start. If it can get added I would consider removing contraband from RND simply because its always been a meme feature for an office that can already makes tons of super powerful shit without contraband research.

[Oldman Robustin]

Any solution to the security problem can't just be "well we're going to make the Warden work harder, because wardens are already renowned for the ability to do their job effectively" (that's sarcasm). I can't even remember the last time a warden set someone to arrest when asked.

I guess I was incorrect about every department being its own station being the end game, the true solution to all cooperation problems is to just give every crewmember enough tools to make the station function on their own rather than risk relying on someone else.

Kor my proposals clearly encourage security to work together more, by rewarding them for forming a functional whole that operates as intended and not as 5 wildcard validhunters murdering and looting every antag they come across. My issue with the warden stuff is that warden is already a role burdened with several responsibilities and that giving the warden one more duty that would help keep officers alive would go wholly underused and would ultimately be ineffective.

I prefer distress signals because it helps empower officers to help one another without having to screech at the warden or AI to tell them what's going on - simply because time and experience have proven that both those entities are likely to be distracted/busy/dead/unfilled/afk in most instances and will not be sufficient to render the aid required.

[Dr_bee]

here is another idea that may be too big of a buff but hear me out. Have sec officers start the round already saved to cloning and with one of those fancy health implants that scanned people get. It wouldn't require coding an entirely new alarm system and would give a gigantic reason not to kill sec officers instantly, as they will just get cloned immediately and rat you out.

It would also give more incentive for antags to sabotage cloning via deleting cloning records or just plain blowing up the cloner, and it would require medbay to actually clone them, giving a bit of inter-department cooperation

[ShadowDimentio]

That's... actually a great idea. Sec is still a loot pinata and gene is still a huge target, but murderboners have a slightly rougher time.

[captain sawrge]

It's actually a bad idea and dying should actually be some sort of penalty.
There are already lots of ways to avoid getting ganked without all these insane ideas to nullify the only actual significant player penalty in the game.

[ShadowDimentio]

>Dying has no penalty

If you died then there's a 99% chance your body just got looted by the traitor who killed you. They now have a ranged stun, a stunbaton, flashbang immunity, armor, sec access and 5 minutes to rampage before you get cloned. You have nothing but your life.

Please explain how this isn't balanced.

[captain sawrge]

And before you died you already had all those things on you to prevent the traitor from killing you. Those items make a traitor incredibly visible and identify him as someone who either killed or stole from an officer, painting a huge target on his back.

[Saegrimr]

Give all sec explosive implants then. Solved, no more loot.

[Dr_bee]

It's actually a bad idea and dying should actually be some sort of penalty.
There are already lots of ways to avoid getting ganked without all these insane ideas to nullify the only actual significant player penalty in the game.

the penalty is losing your security gear and having to sit out for however long it takes for genetics to get off their dead ass and press the button to clone you + the time it takes to clone you. the trade off the murderer gets is their cover blown to fuck and back in return for security gear and access. There is still a penalty to dieing, but it makes security officers a significantly less tasty loot pinata that they currently are.

Remember, sec officers are not just under equipped when compared to traitors or other antags, but they also have imperfect information and often times an unfriendly crew, having the penalty for failure be usually permanently being removed from a round with all those things stacked against you is why no one plays security. Sec has to run TOWARDS the assholes with the overpowered traitor gear, not away, they shouldnt be punished more for doing their jobs.

[ShadowDimentio]

And before you died you already had all those things on you to prevent the traitor from killing you. Those items make a traitor incredibly visible and identify him as someone who either killed or stole from an officer, painting a huge target on his back.

Only if they equip them all on purpose, throwing stealth to the side and going loud. Honestly I'd only take the baton and taser, and set the body on fire to destroy the rest.

[Sweets]

I have a couple of solutions.

-Give peacekeeper borgs a pinpointer/handheld crew monitor device that tracks people with mindshield implants. (Also give them zipties. Why the fuck does standard module borg get them and peacekeeper doesnt?)
Pros: Buff to easily the weakest borg model right now in usefulness while not going down the path that led to secborg valid squads
Cons: Nobody plays peacekeeper still, Forces murders to gib/creammate/space bodies increasing chance someone is perma removed from round instead of shoving them in a maint locker.

-Combine the function of tracking implants and mindshield implants.
Pros: Huge buff to underused feature and can be used to track salty deconverted people who bumrush the cult base/gang head trying to be reconverted. Gives mindshield a use in non conversion modes.
Cons: Is a pretty big buff to an item that was already nerfed (loyalty implants) for being too good. Also forces the issue above of people spacing/burning/gibbing implanted crew.

-Add smell. Make bodies that have been dead long enough give off a stink cloud when close enough to them or a visible cue in chat of "You smell something foul" if players walk within 3/5 tiles of the body. This status applies when a body has been dead for over say 15 minutes. Doesnt apply if body is in a vold enviroment or freezer/fridge.
Pros: Increases chance of finding corpses in maint, gives killer more than enough time to move or hide a body fairly without having to destroy it.
Cons: Possibly a nightmare to code. Also unintentionally adds an in game reference to Smells.

[ShadowDimentio]

I use tracking implants whenever I think lings are afoot. It only takes one case of a corpse I killed vanishing from the brig for me to implant every corpse from then on. Then if you see anyone with a little dot under their icon, you know instantly they're an escaped ling and it's valid time.

Also I love the second idea. Just have corpses constantly release an invisible smoke cloud that gives you a message if you pass through it saying that it smells awful here.

[Scott]

What if you give it more time for people to learn these maps? Trying to balance the game differently for three different maps is a fool's errand.

[Dr_bee]

What if you give it more time for people to learn these maps? Trying to balance the game differently for three different maps is a fool's errand.

this isnt just a map familiarity problem, it is a map size problem, Box used to have a teeny tiny maint, the station was relatively small compared to box now, and definitely compared to metastation and deltastation.

[oranges]

I have a couple of solutions.

-Give peacekeeper borgs...

Why do people think peacekeepers are meant to be anything but a slap in the face to the mad secborg players?

[ShadowDimentio]

You got it backwards dummy, it was pointing and laughing at the anti-secborgers who wanted all the corners padded and stuff that dunked them removed.

[Scott]

What if you give it more time for people to learn these maps? Trying to balance the game differently for three different maps is a fool's errand.

this isnt just a map familiarity problem, it is a map size problem, Box used to have a teeny tiny maint, the station was relatively small compared to box now, and definitely compared to metastation and deltastation.

I am sure buffing security more will turn out alright.

[Ezel]

Nice novel oldman

[Arianya]

I have a couple of solutions.

-Give peacekeeper borgs...

Why do people think peacekeepers are meant to be anything but a slap in the face to the mad secborg players?

I realise this topic has been discussed to death and back, but I still feel its bad to have a borg module that isn't just underpowered, but is an active trap to new players/inexperienced borgs that harms their gameplay experience, not to mention the experience of the AI who relies on the borgs.

If the maintainer/design feeling is that there shouldn't be a security-oriented borg module, then lets just remove peacekeeper and be content.

If peacekeeper is meant to be a legit borg module aimed at keeping the peace, then lets improve his kit so that its not a basic failure of its intent.