Let's talk Double-Esword

[Steelpoint]

Bottom post of the previous page:

But in the same notion Traitors don't need items that do most of the work for them.

Bombs, singulo beacons and parapens are good items because they all require preparation and effort to use. Weapons like the Revolver or Sketchin are good because they have a limited ammo supply and don't confer insane defensive bonuses onto the user.

I dislike Double Eswords because of the insane defense they grant the user. Ebows I also dislike because its a literal infinte pocket stun with no warning and minimal effort required to employ.

A powerful item should either be very dangerous to use (see revolver due to it attracting a lot of attention and not granting any defence) or require a moderate amount of effort to employ (see singulo beacon that requires the user to hide a beacon somewhere on the station AND then somehow cause the Singlo to be released)

[InsaneHyena]

> Steel "Security needs pulse guns for breaching walls" point is talking about balance again
Yes, we know that you love security and want them to be as cool as traitors, or at least bring down traitors to security level. We know.

if you need a unbalanced crutch just to get funky with your murderbone maybe you should toggle off traitor.

If you hate murderboners so much, maybe baystation is more of your server.

[Steelpoint]

> Steel "Security needs pulse guns for breaching walls" point is talking about balance again
Yes, we know that you love security and want them to be as cool as traitors. We know.

If you're dumb enough to think I was giving the HoS Gun a Pulse Rifle setting then you're not qualified to discuss any form of balancing.

[Doctor Pork]

> Steel "Security needs pulse guns for breaching walls" point is talking about balance again
Yes, we know that you love security and want them to be as cool as traitors, or at least bring down traitors to security level. We know.

Edit: It wasn't worth an actual response, so I removed it.

[InsaneHyena]

If you're dumb enough to think I was giving the HoS Gun a Pulse Rifle setting then you're not qualified to discuss any form of balancing.

Do you think I'm deaf and blind or something? I did not sleep through all of your PRs, and you did not get the reputation you have for nothing.

[Doctor Pork]

> Steel "Security needs pulse guns for breaching walls" point is talking about balance again
Yes, we know that you love security and want them to be as cool as traitors. We know.

If you're dumb enough to think I was giving the HoS Gun a Pulse Rifle setting then you're not qualified to discuss any form of balancing.

Don't let him bait you into debating Ad hominem.

[Steelpoint]

My point on traitor items stands, I do think that a powerful item needs a counter balance in either needing a lot of effort to get it to work right or it should have a clear drawback that can be exploited if allowed.

[Arianya]

So, to cut through the back and forth of people being kind of awful.

Would an acceptable fix be to disable the 75% deflect chance for thrown projectiles? (i.e. Floor tiles, spears, non-energy bolas, etc)

Most of the arguments against nerfing it seem to have been in the vein that these options are viable, and this is a pretty easy fix since we already define these as THROWN_PROJECTILE_ATTACK

e: This also adds an interesting bit of variance in traitor gear, as shields (including the riot shield, energy shield, etc) have a +30% block chance against THROWN_PROJECTILE, so a shield is a good investment for a tator tot whos worried about being slapped around.

[Doctor Pork]

So, to cut through the back and forth of people being kind of awful.

Would an acceptable fix be to disable the 75% deflect chance for thrown projectiles? (i.e. Floor tiles, spears, non-energy bolas, etc)

Most of the arguments against nerfing it seem to have been in the vein that these options are viable, and this is a pretty easy fix since we already define these as THROWN_PROJECTILE_ATTACK

e: This also adds an interesting bit of variance in traitor gear, as shields (including the riot shield, energy shield, etc) have a +30% block chance against THROWN_PROJECTILE, so a shield is a good investment for a tator tot whos worried about being slapped around.

Yeah, that seems pretty fair since bolas give knockdown. Its a good tradeoff because then you can have a shield or two eswords but not both.

[leibniz]

I dont think it is a big issue that most starting equipment doesn't fully counter eswords, that cost the majority of a traitor's TC.
While normally sec can just use their 1-hit-to-win weapons to deal with things, is it really bad if something is scary?
Run away if you are alone, try to group up and make a plan.

What was said about sword murderboners being boring is true though. It is the most basic option for people who cant come up with anything and they want to cause some chaos.
Making bundles worth buying could be a solution.

[Steelpoint]

I think I can admit I am wrong in this discussion with one regard.

Security does have a single item that can, to a extent, counter a Double Energy Sword user. The reason I never thought to try it is because I never thought it would work.

The Security Temperature Gun.

Now the weapon is still subject to the 75% block rule, however if you get even a single hit in then the enemy is suddenly now significantly slowed down (assuming you use freeze). If you're able to follow this up you can significantly slow down the user.

You can then either attempt to follow up with a DragNET to further slow them down, or find a alternative (which is still a iffy question). They are still very dangerous and if you take too long they'll very quickly regain speed. Also bad RNG can still screw you over.

But its something.

[Arianya]

I think I can admit I am wrong in this discussion with one regard.

Security does have a single item that can, to a extent, counter a Double Energy Sword user. The reason I never thought to try it is because I never thought it would work.

The Security Temperature Gun.

Now the weapon is still subject to the 75% block rule, however if you get even a single hit in then the enemy is suddenly now significantly slowed down (assuming you use freeze). If you're able to follow this up you can significantly slow down the user.

You can then either attempt to follow up with a DragNET to further slow them down, or find a alternative (which is still a iffy question). They are still very dangerous and if you take too long they'll very quickly regain speed. Also bad RNG can still screw you over.

But its something.

That... shouldn't work.

The temperature gun is an energy weapon like any other.

[Steelpoint]

Perhaps its handled differently code wise.

Irrespective and for the moment its the only viable counter that Security has.

[Sweets]

How about this.
1. Remove noslips from chameleon kit. Reduce price by 1 tc.
2. Increase Noslips price to 5 tc but buff them into giving them baseline combat boot armor. Or add a toggleable magentic anti grav mode.

Now literally a beaker of water can stop them.

[ShadowDimentio]

My point on traitor items stands, I do think that a powerful item needs a counter balance in either needing a lot of effort to get it to work right or it should have a clear drawback that can be exploited if allowed.

>A CLEAR DRAWBACK
>SPENDING 16/20 (80%) OF YOUR TCS IS INSUFFICIENT

The assblast from getting outplayed by a traitor merely investing in going loud is incredible.

Perhaps its handled differently code wise.

Irrespective and for the moment its the only viable counter that Security has.

Except for batons, bolas, flashbangs, flamethrowers, ANY solid projectile weapon, or throwing a fucking corpse at them.

[kevinz000]

What I'm getting from this thread is people need to get good at security as you have multiple ways of countering each and every antags item and failing that you have cooperation and teamwork on your side.
And if you don't that's a player problem.
Personally I lonewolf antags but it doesn't mean security can't band together to stop a murderboner.

If all else fails get good and disarm them.

[ShadowDimentio]

What I'm getting from this thread is people need to get good at security as you have multiple ways of countering each and every antags item and failing that you have cooperation and teamwork on your side.
And if you don't that's a player problem.

This. If all else fails, dogpile on the dual esword guy with the whole sec department, SOMEBODY will get a baton off on him.

[Sweets]

What I'm getting from this thread is people need to get good at security as you have multiple ways of countering each and every antags item and failing that you have cooperation and teamwork on your side.
And if you don't that's a player problem.

Traitor with dual esword, emp Implant, noslips. They esword into arrivals sec checkpoint and get glasses and bowman.

Now your only options are.

1. Disarm spam/baton and pray for that 25%/ Try to hit him with an energy bola that has a 3 tile maximum range.
2. Hope to god someone has armory access to get you teargas(which is fucked if they have internals), Dragnet to try and make him step in a snare, or a shotgun(Again pray for that rng). (Does 2h esword block temp gun?)
3. Pray the detective is alive and has his gun. Then tell him to DO YOUR JOB and pray RNGsus blesses him.
4. Break windows and crowbar up tiles to throw shit at them.
5. Pray that based Beepsky gets him.
6. Pray the clown didnt throw or eat the creampies.
7. Give them the Bryce Pax Special and welderbomb.

That is literally all that security can do in terms of IMMEDIATE response. This is why I suggested the noslips change above. Sec starts with a bar of soap. And anyone can get a glass/beaker/bottle/bucket of water relitively quickly and make the floor wet.

However. If you have prep time, you should easily take down a dual esworder just by making an explosive lance/changing AI laws/breaking lights and making them have to put away sword to turn on a light/sending a mulebot after them.

[ShadowDimentio]

Make a flamethrower/molotov/fucking beaker of welding fuel
Light him on fire.

His options are to either put his sword away and extinguish himself, whereupon you beat the shit out of him, or die.

Get GOOD

[cedarbridge]

Yeah because there's more than a few things that'll fuck an esworders life up if you throw it at them, you lot are arguing from the stupid position of "Well WHAT IF they don't have that stuff?"

Well then you get dunked. Do not pass go.

Exciting and interesting gameplay.

"How do I counter X?"
"You don't."

>how do I counter x
>list of things to counter it with
>but what if I don't have them
>you die
>wow that's so boring an unoriginal wewowowowowow why can't we nerf it?

What the fuck are you taking

So you're re-adding secborgs then right?

[kevinz000]

I use option 1 regardless try getting good.

[ShadowDimentio]

Is that supposed to be a HAHA GOTCHA NOW NOBODY LIKES SECBORGS

Because I've always liked secborgs and fought hard for their return.

[kevinz000]

snip

Yeah and if a full squad of security couldn't take them out with batons alone I would be very disappointed at the security team.
If anything they need to be limited in lowpop where you don't HAVE a full security team.

[cedarbridge]

snip

Yeah and if a full squad of security couldn't take them out with batons alone I would be very disappointed at the security team.
If anything they need to be limited in lowpop where you don't HAVE a full security team.

Hard to be sad for a group losing a stacked cointoss.

[Sweets]

snip

If anything they need to be limited in lowpop where you don't HAVE a full security team.

That right there is the issue.
Sybil regularly starts rounds with 1 officer and MAYBE one other officer/HoS/Det/Warden/Cap.

If there are 30 people on station and I'm the only guy with a blue ring around my HuD icon.

I can either give greyshits and the rest of the crew who may or may not be antags standard sec gear (which I gurantee none will give back after we get the guy), try to fight him at a severe disadvantage, or I can fall back and go try to autism craft a lance or molatov while he butchers the crew.

Maybe make esword require at least 20/25 people on station. Ebow + Edagger/Powerfist kills more than well enough on lowpop.

[Super Aggro Crag]

Bomb lances are cool

[onleavedontatme]

We should just have one server at this point so the jobs are all filled and we can balance around that instead of trying to balance around 10 people being online

[oranges]

what? it's because the population is cyclical not because there are two servers you dummy, if we only had one then primetime would be 130+ players

[Kel]

you'd think if you buy a weapon that instantly makes you valid public enemy number one and only able to melee and unable to use it without both your hands, you'd deserve to be able to take out a sec officer with default gear in a 1v1 scenario

[IcePacks]

get gud

if you can't overwhelm a single guy with a whole sandbox of options you can always try running away

[cedarbridge]

you'd think if you buy a weapon that instantly makes you valid public enemy number one and only able to melee and unable to use it without both your hands, you'd deserve to be able to take out a sec officer with default gear in a 1v1 scenario

>deserve
no

[Sweets]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again.

Dual eswords are fine. The problem is you can buy two other items, (EMP kit and noslips), that remove two things that can counter them fairly commonly (Beepsky/borgs and slips).

Raise the price on esword to 9tc or raise noslips/emp to 3 tcs, and at least 40% of salt over dual esworders gets erased.

[Screemonster]

put that minority report gun in that does no damage whatsoever and only exists to knock the target back a tile and on their ass for a single tick or something. Hardcountered by magboots, if you wanna be immune to the knock-on-your-ass-cannon then you're gonn be slow :v

[Doctor Pork]

So looking back on this thread, I shouldnt post when I havent slept. Just let the populace murderbone as poopy as it may be, if you want to be a meme of your favorite horned star trek lightsword man you should be allowed to, but when it happens the clown, chef, and botony need to step up and crank out them creampies or cargo needs to order some High-Yield pies.

What should actually be a crime is not using a multitool to put them into RAINBOWMODE.

[Reece]

If you have TK it should make your sword auto return to your hand and stay active when being thrown.

[Lumbermancer]

I want to roflstomp traitors, who invested into fighting, with my default gear just by myself

Your every post is like a bad joke. Do you even realize how absolutely ridiculous you sound? And while I'm at it, there's also this guy.

Was double esword rolfstomped before? Do you even play this game? Before it was more about skill, who manged to wasd better and click faster would land first hit, and either stun with stun baton or more often than not cut limbs off or knock opponent outright with eswords. Now it's more about RNG.

It makes sense for a weapon dedicated to subjugating opponents to be less effective than shards of glass.

Oh, let me try to memequote as well

I want traitors to rolfstomp everyone

[oranges]

this thread is pointless becuase I like the double esword and will block all attempts to change it

[Lumbermancer]

Why do you like about it?

[CPTANT]

To be honest traitors usually don't feel like a threat at all in the current meta.

Double esword murderboners are one of the few things that can turn into a serious threat, apart from the super boring bombings/engine release.

[Reece]

To be honest traitors usually don't feel like a threat at all in the current meta.

Double esword murderboners are one of the few things that can turn into a serious threat, apart from the super boring bombings/engine release.

I get that feeling as well. It's either desword murder, engine, bomb or sneaky.

[Lumbermancer]

It's either desword murder, engine, bomb

There's no objective to kill everyone, bar maybe hijack shuttle, as one of the options. So it's not "either" this this or that, it's what you want to do.

[IcePacks]

I'll say it before and I'll say it again.

Dual eswords are fine. The problem is you can buy two other items, (EMP kit and noslips), that remove two things that can counter them fairly commonly (Beepsky/borgs and slips).

Raise the price on esword to 9tc or raise noslips/emp to 3 tcs, and at least 40% of salt over dual esworders gets erased.

just make it a separate item

[cedarbridge]

this thread is pointless becuase I like the double esword and will block all attempts to change it

We've been here before and its a dark place.

[ShadowDimentio]

this thread is pointless becuase I like the double esword and will block all attempts to change it

Spoiler:

[yackemflam]

Just
Use
A
Fucking
Shotgun

The best part about using a shotgun is that rng is more on your side if you can aim.
Sure they can take a few shots
BUT
They are slowed by every shot hitting them
Stamina damage is a bitch to fight when melee only

Dont have a shotgun as sec?

>assistant mcdeadman 'DESWORD ASSISTANT MCTRAITOR!'
>Go to the warden and get a shotgun
>Go to assistant mctraitor
>Stay 2 tiles away and pepper him down
>Rng is on YOUR side despite him being able to block most of your shots
>Pop pop pop watchin traitas drop
>Get new fancy glowing traitor toy

[Oldman Robustin]

To be honest traitors usually don't feel like a threat at all in the current meta.

Double esword murderboners are one of the few things that can turn into a serious threat, apart from the super boring bombings/engine release.

I'll second this too. Dblmemesword isn't the pinnacle of good gameplay but at least it involves the crew and creates an equalizing effect where an ordinary assistant can save the day. The fighting happens in relatively public places and gets the crew involved in trying to stop the traitor and save the victims.

I'll take that any day over "E-E-E-BOW M-M-MAINT".

Romerol is what I'd like to see more of for traitors, fun, crazy stuff that can turn a round on its head if executed properly. I'm just dead tired of every traitor round being: ENGINE LOOSE! PLASMA COMING OUT OF THE VENTS! BOMB IN MEDBAY!

[cedarbridge]

Just
Use
A
Fucking
Shotgun

The best part about using a shotgun is that rng is more on your side if you can aim.
Sure they can take a few shots
BUT
They are slowed by every shot hitting them
Stamina damage is a bitch to fight when melee only

Dont have a shotgun as sec?

>assistant mcdeadman 'DESWORD ASSISTANT MCTRAITOR!'
>Go to the warden and get a shotgun
>Go to assistant mctraitor
>Stay 2 tiles away and pepper him down
>Rng is on YOUR side despite him being able to block most of your shots
>Pop pop pop watchin traitas drop
>Get new fancy glowing traitor toy

I wonder what actual data says about shotguns.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 69#p250469

[DemonFiren]

I'd say Steelpoint's experiments should be repeated at least 1000 times in order to be usable for statistics.

[Steelpoint]

No need, just assume a 75% block rate in all test scenarios.

Of course that's before accounting you're accuracy in hitting a very fast moving target.

[Steelpoint]

You know its actually amusing but in the Star Wars lore ballistic weapons are surprisingly effective against lightsabers, while normally useless in modern war but the bullets don't get deflected like tradition blaster bolts but instead simply melt and continue through to hit the wielder. Meaning the person is being hit by melted metal at high speeds which can quickly incapacitate a sword user.

[yackemflam]

Blah

I wonder what actual data says about shotguns.
https://tgstation13.org/phpBB/viewtopic ... 69#p250469

Lets imply you are implying that the shotgunner does NOT have rng on his side.

I'll counter with this. (Please say otherwise if I'm wrong)

LOTS OF FUCKING MATH HERE

Each pellet does 3 normal health damage and 25 stamina damage

Health and stamina are tied together so you need 4 pellets to weaken someone into basically a crit. (You can punch them to death at this point since they cant get back up.)

A rubber shot shell shoots 6 shots when used and you have a 75% chance EACH to hit the desword target.

By math they have a 17.8~% to block ALL shots at once. (.75 * .75 * .75 * .75 * .75 * .75)

A riot shotgun can hold up to 7 shells before you are out of ammo and have to reload (1 in chamber + 6 in the tube)

Math wise it's next to impossible to block all of the shots with the desword (0.000566~% chance small)

You have a good chance 1 or 2 shots is going to hit them. (6 * .25 = 1.5)

On average you'll need to shoot only 3 times to take them down, 4 if you are unlucky. 5 if you are super unlucky.

If you are lucky you need only 1 or 2 shells.

But this is point blank only.

Lets say you can only get 3 hits per shell. (shotgun spread) (3 * .25 = .75)

on average you need 5 shells to take the desword user down. 6-7 if unlucky. 2-4 if lucky.

If they don't go down here's what you do, walk away and reload. that shit takes only 10 seconds to get like 4 shells in fast.

And if they try to run away, chase them. You dont need to be in melee range to be effective.

So yes, the rng IS in favor of the shotgunner.

I swear you guys are like the wow's lead balance designer.

Spoiler:

If you get a partner, even if one of you goes down. The other guy can just shoot the desword user. Lowering the deswords user chance by a metric fuck ton.

And if you cant access the armory. Run away from them, and come back with 4-5 friends. You all dont evn need to be armed to push spam his ass down and kill his ass with his own sword.